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scottdogs
10-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Today I played In UK Nats and didn't do very successful but I was on table 9 in one game and was annoyed to find out during the game my opponent ended the game with a proxied Violet Proto-Drake, which is one of the additional crafting cards which won the game for my opponent. So I asked the top judge and he said he was totally against this but then the other 2 judges that were there said that there was a couple of players which were using the additional crafting cards as proxies because they had been promised that they would have them for Nats but they were let down. this frustrated me because surely at a tournament which is as important as Nats then you should play with the cards you have and not replicas. is there a certain rule or was this acceptable to do ?
Thanks, Scott

Skyhaven_Games
10-15-2011, 02:52 PM
Today I played In UK Nats and didn't do very successful but I was on table 9 in one game and was annoyed to find out during the game my opponent ended the game with a proxied Violet Proto-Drake, which is one of the additional crafting cards which won the game for my opponent. So I asked the top judge and he said he was totally against this but then the other 2 judges that were there said that there was a couple of players which were using the additional crafting cards as proxies because they had been promised that they would have them for Nats but they were let down. this frustrated me because surely at a tournament which is as important as Nats then you should play with the cards you have and not replicas. is there a certain rule or was this acceptable to do ?
Thanks, Scott

They set a precedent for allowing a player to proxy Jaral of Gilneas at the recent DMF. I'm guessing that these players called ahead or something and asked if they could get the crafting cards, and the crafting cards went out of stock (or arrived late), so the judges made a call and said they can proxy those cards since they couldn't provide them at the event.

That's just my speculation, though.

scottdogs
10-15-2011, 03:07 PM
Thanks for that :) But I just find it unfair when a proxied card wins the game but that's just my opinion, I just want to know if there is official ruling for this or whether its allowed to happen.
but thanks again

Skyhaven_Games
10-15-2011, 03:15 PM
Thanks for that :) But I just find it unfair when a proxied card wins the game but that's just my opinion, I just want to know if there is official ruling for this or whether its allowed to happen.
but thanks again

According to the documents, you can't use proxies. According to the same documents, the head judge's word is the final word (at least, to my understanding). So...yeah, if he said they could, they could.

demonfae
10-15-2011, 03:20 PM
According to the documents, you can't use proxies. According to the same documents, the head judge's word is the final word (at least, to my understanding). So...yeah, if he said they could, they could.

This should not have happened. They players should have been required to replace them with another card.

wonggonewrong
10-15-2011, 03:30 PM
Hi, I'm the current HJ of this event (which has just finished day 1). I was disappointed in the prescedence set by CZE officials in making these decisions as it directly circumvents written tournament policies. As written in 3.3, HJ has final say in whether proxies are allowed due to extenuating circumstances. With this in mind it would have been courteous for CZE to recommend rather than impose this permission of proxies into the event (which I only found out in Round 4) I was going to take this up privately with CZE officials rather than go public, but I feel I need to express my opinion to show how I have felt undermined in the situation. Having to explain a contraversial decision (which I had no say in) to several opponents at a high level event is not good PR under any circumstances.

scottdogs
10-15-2011, 03:37 PM
The head judge said that he was against it but the 2 other judges said they could but he was against it still and said that he would follow this up but he Didn't make the call so I'm not sure

scottdogs
10-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Yeah I think we should of been told earlier in the event and I appreciate your help when I asked about the situation. Will this go any further or is it finished and that's it?
Thanks anyway though :)

wonggonewrong
10-15-2011, 03:45 PM
The decision I had to go with was to allow the proxies as it would be a disservice to the players that were informed otherwise. If I was notified of the situation prior to the start of the event, there was a chance I would have not allowed proxies and happily be accountable to CZE for my actions. Overiding a CZE decision that deep into an event brings politicial implications that I was not willing to risk and instead I had to resort to damage limitation. I think I did speak to you today scottjohns and I hope responses here help towards some degree of validation and again I personally apologise for my contribution in the situation.

scottdogs
10-15-2011, 03:56 PM
yeah thanks for all you did, and I suppose it was too far into the event to change the ruling.
I think you made the right choice in the end.
thank you very much for the follow up :D

demonfae
10-15-2011, 04:07 PM
When you say it was a CZE decision, what exactly do you mean? Feel free to PM me the details if you don't want to discuss it here any further.

Skyhaven_Games
10-15-2011, 05:00 PM
When you say it was a CZE decision, what exactly do you mean? Feel free to PM me the details if you don't want to discuss it here any further.

He mentions it in his post above - he's talking about the Jaral of Gilneas proxy precedent set in DMF Philly.

wonggonewrong
10-15-2011, 05:09 PM
PM sent. The two situations are difference enough to generate two very different perceptions from the point of view of players. To put things simply: what if other players assumed I allowed proxies to a select few players on a whim? Doesn't exactly put me in the light of a fair and unbiased judge, does it?!

Wessex
10-15-2011, 05:29 PM
That is insane.

tpuefol
10-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Not quite insane.

Just a lot of miscommunication - always best to communicate clearly.

If unsure, check with your HJ (overcommunicate). He is the boss after all.

martinezjkind
10-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Players go to an event to craft cards that are announced are going to be at said event. Those cards are not at event, for whatever reason, is it the players fault ?
I have seen people talk about proxies should never be allowed even in release events where the hero they wanted was not pulled. There needs to be a line drawn or just realize that certain things do come up that will allow proxies. As for the HJ allowing other judges to say they are ok with it , your the HJ your word is final not theirs.

behemothdan
10-16-2011, 12:22 AM
Using a proxy hero in a release event or a draft is an entirely different situation when compared to a constructed event. It is known that there is a large chance that the hero you want wasn't opened or there were multiple people wanting to play it.

Heading to a constructed tournament without a complete deck is a risky endeavor and as others have mentioned, it sets a risky precedent. When judges start talking about availability or what not, it can go downhill fast. I hope Cryptozoic makes a definitive statement that can be referenced for these future situations, and I hope that statement is proxies are not allowed.

Alark
10-16-2011, 07:26 AM
The situation was actually alot WORSE than scotdogs has made out. here is why,

Me and my team have been playtesting for uk nationals as soon as it was announced, oviusly when you playtest you use proxies because you might change the deck or build a deck your not going to play to test again (Mainly out of proxies), when it was announced that there was going to be a crafting vendor there we instantly added the crafted cards to our proxy play test pool and started to test with them in and out of our decks. However when it was announced that the vendor would not be prsent we removed them from our testing pool (and in some cases our decks!, since a few of us had sent off for them and where planning on using them).

Now when out of the blue somone goes i play proxy and win, red lights started to go off and me and scotdogs challenged the HJ about it, he has already explained in his posts that he did not know so i dont have anything against him, infact he actually helped us out, so thumbs up for him. The real issue here is that none of the players who quallified got emailed with the informtion saying you can proxy crafting cards, so the only people who knew where the players at the store it was being held, now this is clearly a unfair advantage because they knew about it and every one else didnt (dont get me wrong, the manchester players are good! and win off their own back, and i am sure even if every one had proxies they still would of done well). Secondly, the decision that proxies where allowed, as explained by the player who used them on scotdogs was made by the store manager (to my knowlage) because his store could not get the crafting cards. Secondly it was not even announced before the actual event that certain proxy cards where legal, so again it was a unfair advantage because people could not change their decks to fit them in or even knew about it.

In my opinion the UK qualified players should of been emailed before the event and again announced before the event. The fact that some players knew they could proxy cards and others didnt (including the HJ of the event) is terrible because it changes how people test and what people play on the day.

Overall though i enjoyed the day and apart from the proxy situation was well organised and the judging team did a good job.

darkpact
10-16-2011, 10:28 AM
I'm sorry but there goes a lot on here which I have to comment on.

CZE only offers on site crafting for all the events it helds itself (DMF+). CZE offers mail in crafting which it try to fulfill in the shortest possible time. If you wanted to have the cards for the Nationals you could have send it in to us. Everyone could have done that right from the point the cards have been announced.

We announced that the new crafting cards are legal for Nationals, and everyone was free to send in the materials to get their cards in time for the Nationals. We promised to treat all cards for Nationals with a higher priority in Europe that everyone who wanted to play them should be able to. We managed to get the cards to Belgium for their Nationals on October 1st. We managed to get cards to France for their Nationals on October 9th. Unfortunately we were not able to get them to the UK Nationals in time.

From the stamping on the envelopes I received from the UK, they were send off in September, it still has only reached us last Thursday, which is way to late to get it back to the players in time. We got a total of 3 players who crafted cards. I provided the names and the cards to the local distributor, requested to say our sorry to the players and let them know they can still play with them.

Our premise is fans first. We don't want to let the players down.

Alark
10-16-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm sorry but there goes a lot on here which I have to comment on.

CZE only offers on site crafting for all the events it helds itself (DMF+). CZE offers mail in crafting which it try to fulfill in the shortest possible time. If you wanted to have the cards for the Nationals you could have send it in to us. Everyone could have done that right from the point the cards have been announced.

We announced that the new crafting cards are legal for Nationals, and everyone was free to send in the materials to get their cards in time for the Nationals. We promised to treat all cards for Nationals with a higher priority in Europe that everyone who wanted to play them should be able to. We managed to get the cards to Belgium for their Nationals on October 1st. We managed to get cards to France for their Nationals on October 9th. Unfortunately we were not able to get them to the UK Nationals in time.

From the stamping on the envelopes I received from the UK, they were send off in September, it still has only reached us last Thursday, which is way to late to get it back to the players in time. We got a total of 3 players who crafted cards. I provided the names and the cards to the local distributor, requested to say our sorry to the players and let them know they can still play with them.

Our premise is fans first. We don't want to let the players down.

I understand the circumstances where out of your control, thats cool.

However what was within your control was emailing the players saying that crafted proxies where allowed or even announce it before the event. Its not my intention to make crypto look bad, my intention is to shed light on the matter and try and try to understand why as to why qualifed player we were not informed prior to the event for testing purposes or prior to the event on the day and why a selected few were granted this knowlage and the majority where not.

Aaric
10-16-2011, 04:46 PM
In all fairness, you can't really put everything on CZE. Players could and should have checked instead of waiting until it's way too late.

Viteh
10-17-2011, 03:00 AM
Thats not really fair either. Proxies cant be used, its against the rules. If CZE or the TO decide to make an exception then its their responsability to make sure everyone knows that, not the players. Could they have asked if certain proxies were allowed? Yeah, but they shouldnt have to.

Aaric
10-17-2011, 08:03 AM
I didn't say it was all the players fault. Maybe it's just me, but if I heard that I'd be allowed to proxy something for a tournament I'd be trying to verify it from multiple sources, most importantly the TO and head judge for the tournament I would be using the proxy in.

Alark
10-17-2011, 10:00 AM
I didn't say it was all the players fault. Maybe it's just me, but if I heard that I'd be allowed to proxy something for a tournament I'd be trying to verify it from multiple sources, most importantly the TO and head judge for the tournament I would be using the proxy in.

Its not just you, if I had been told I would of tried to veirfy to, the issue is that 95% of players knew nothing about it. I am not trying to make a big deal about, I just want to bring it to cze attention.

martinezjkind
10-23-2011, 08:44 AM
If a venue announces it will have something and does not , it is the venue's responsibility . If a judge rules or makes a call that players are against, it is on the judge . When Cryptozoic is running the event and venue do they have control over what happens. I see people saying that rules say no proxies and I saw someone say that proxies in a draft setting are ok . In tournament policy it states under 3.13
"Proxies, cards meant to represent other cards, often photocopies, are considered fake and are not allowed in sanctioned tournaments. In rare instances, such as damaged cards in a limited event, the head judge may allow a player to play with proxies." The issue about being able to have a head judge make a call about proxies has been removed from all the official documents.

Alark
10-24-2011, 01:25 PM
If a venue announces it will have something and does not , it is the venue's responsibility . If a judge rules or makes a call that players are against, it is on the judge . When Cryptozoic is running the event and venue do they have control over what happens. I see people saying that rules say no proxies and I saw someone say that proxies in a draft setting are ok . In tournament policy it states under 3.13
"Proxies, cards meant to represent other cards, often photocopies, are considered fake and are not allowed in sanctioned tournaments. In rare instances, such as damaged cards in a limited event, the head judge may allow a player to play with proxies." The issue about being able to have a head judge make a call about proxies has been removed from all the official documents.

Yeah thats fine. replacing a damaged card is ok because its not something that has been planned. However when it has been.planned in advance why was no one told apart from a few certain people.

BlueRider
10-24-2011, 01:43 PM
Because they were the only ones who sent in for the crafted cards. If everyone else had sent in for crafted cards and Cryptozoic had not been able to deliver the cards on time, they too would have been allowed to play with proxies.

cervidal
10-24-2011, 07:13 PM
The Philly judge set a bad precident. Rather than nip it in the bud, this tournament organizer compounded the issue.

The rule on this is 100% clear. You cannot use proxies. There are no exceptions to this rule beyond those already found in the rules, and it pertains to one specific instance in one specific format.

Rather than debate what should have happened after the fact, acknowledge that the precident was wrong, using the precident is wrong, and stick to the black and white rules going forward.

BlueRider
10-24-2011, 07:41 PM
This didn't have anything to do with Philly or the tournament organize, this was CZE's call.

Aaric
10-25-2011, 12:23 AM
The Philly judge set a bad precident. Rather than nip it in the bud, this tournament organizer compounded the issue.

The rule on this is 100% clear. You cannot use proxies. There are no exceptions to this rule beyond those already found in the rules, and it pertains to one specific instance in one specific format.

Rather than debate what should have happened after the fact, acknowledge that the precident was wrong, using the precident is wrong, and stick to the black and white rules going forward.

It's not as black and white as you think it is, not even close. You seem to be ignoring everything from people who disagree with you and are only hearing what you want to.

p.s. precEdent btw

cervidal
10-25-2011, 04:15 AM
I'm not ignoring anything. Whether the cards were available or not is completely irrelevant. You can't use proxies. Tournament rules aren't created to be mutable at the whim of an event organizer; they're written out so everyone has the same expectations at an event. Clearly not everyone had the same expectation because the deciding person deviated from the written rules.

Philly is absolutely relevant to this because a poor decision was made that led folk to even consider there are exceptions to this rule.

Aaric
10-25-2011, 09:15 AM
Read Matthias' post, he explains it was his decision to allow the proxy. Stop blaming Philly.

martinezjkind
10-26-2011, 01:58 AM
actually the rules about proxies JUST got changed since before it was on the HJ discretion and now it is not. Also if the rules are black and white ,with no exceptions EVER, that means proxies are not allowed in sealed events , so everyone choose the same hero and watch the system fail.

cervidal
10-26-2011, 04:12 AM
actually the rules about proxies JUST got changed since before it was on the HJ discretion and now it is not. Also if the rules are black and white ,with no exceptions EVER, that means proxies are not allowed in sealed events , so everyone choose the same hero and watch the system fail.

Except that the rules provide for this exception already.

martinezjkind
10-28-2011, 11:45 PM
staight of of the tournament policy :
"3.13 Counterfeit Cards and Proxies
Counterfeit cards are illegal and never allowed in sanctioned tournaments. If a player
discovers counterfeit cards at an event site or elsewhere, he or she should bring them to
the attention of CZE as soon as possible. At an event, counterfeit cards may be reported
to any tournament official.
Proxies, cards meant to represent other cards, often photocopies, are considered fake and
are not allowed in sanctioned tournaments. In rare instances, such as damaged cards in a
limited event, the head judge may allow a player to play with proxie."
http://www.cryptozoic.com/downloads/files/cryptozoic_tournament_policy_20110817.pdf
So they listed ONLY in rare instances can you proxie, in ANY sactioned event .

cervidal
10-28-2011, 11:59 PM
It's in the game type format.

http://www.cryptozoic.com/downloads/files/world_of_warcraft_tcg_appendix_20111019.pdf

A.41 Limited Format Game Rules:

...

For Sealed and Draft formats:

Players choose their hero from all sets being used in that tournament. Players are allowed to see the text of all heroes in that pool while drafting and building their decks.

Patrigan
10-29-2011, 04:15 AM
staight of of the tournament policy :
"3.13 Counterfeit Cards and Proxies
Counterfeit cards are illegal and never allowed in sanctioned tournaments. If a player
discovers counterfeit cards at an event site or elsewhere, he or she should bring them to
the attention of CZE as soon as possible. At an event, counterfeit cards may be reported
to any tournament official.
Proxies, cards meant to represent other cards, often photocopies, are considered fake and
are not allowed in sanctioned tournaments. In rare instances, such as damaged cards in a
limited event, the head judge may allow a player to play with proxie."
http://www.cryptozoic.com/downloads/files/cryptozoic_tournament_policy_20110817.pdf
So they listed ONLY in rare instances can you proxie, in ANY sactioned event .

Define "rare instance"...

ThePain
10-31-2011, 06:17 AM
I see why there is alot of discussion going on. I'm just going to give my imput on the matter. I agree with the decision that was made.

These 3 players submitted crafting materials so they could have these cards for the event. They did everything correctly in order to have these cards for the event. CZE just couldn't deliver. These players shouldn't be punished and that's exactly what you're doing if you tell them they can't play those cards. I agree with the decision to allow the proxies given the circumstances.

It probably would have been a good move if the TO/HJ had announced the decision to allow these as proxies during the player meeting so that all players would have been aware.

As for the players that feel violated for being on the losing side of these proxies, I'm sorry. I feel it's a weak excuse to blame a loss on a proxy. If you couldn't deal with the card, then that is the reason you lost. Sorry if you feel offended by this comment, but that's just how I feel.

demonfae
10-31-2011, 03:14 PM
Define "rare instance"...

When I say so :-P

If in doubt, don't allow them.

martinezjkind
11-01-2011, 12:24 AM
I read completely through A.41 Limited Format Game Rules in the policy. It states:Players choose their hero from all sets being used in that tournament. Players are
allowed to see the text of all heroes in that pool while drafting and building their
decks.
It never states you may proxy a hero, only that you can choose any hero from sets that are used in the tournament . I constructed you may use cards that are allowed in the format , but they still can not be proxied.Just pointing that the intension and the letter of the rules are not the same

Patrigan
11-02-2011, 12:48 PM
When I say so :-P

If in doubt, don't allow them.

I've been thinking long and deep for a good witty remark on this...

But...

I got nothing :(

So I guess I'll just follow your lead and let you be the boss! ^^