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View Full Version : Why China and other parts of DMF judge awards different?



nohead
11-23-2011, 10:27 PM
DMF 2011, a total of three games in China. Beijing in March, May in Shenzhen, Shanghai in November.Different incentives and other areas.

Other parts of incentives are:
Judge/Volunteers who work the entire event will receive the following gifts:
3 displays of product from a recent set
2 Twilight Citadel foil promo cards
2 Magni, the Mountain King foil promo cards
2 King Genn Greymane foil promo cards
2 Trade Prince Gallywix foil promo cards
2 Swift Raptor foil promo cards
2 Spinning Fate foil promo cards
1 Rare Loot card from a recent set
1 Uncommon Loot card from a recent set
3 Common Loot cards from a recent set
2 Dungeon Deck Treasure Pack
1 DMF Participation promo
1 DMF Playmat
1 DMF Deckbox
1 Judge Notepad
Various other Cryptozoic things (in the past has included: CZE Lanyard, Sleeves, and other cool stuff)

But China ShaiHai Awards:
1 DMF Playmat
1 WOWTCG Playmat
1 Foil cards Rufus Claybourne
1 Rare Loot card Ethereal Plunderer

Because China is not a European country?

ComicBkJim
11-25-2011, 12:48 PM
I have my ideas why the comp is different but will wait for someone who knows to post them.

But I will tell you this. If you don't like the compensation then don't work. I know it is difficult at times to get that kind of experience but you have to place a value on your knowledge and skill set. And contrary to what many think. Judging is a skill set that is learned from experience not by reading a book and taking an online test.

Aaric
11-25-2011, 05:55 PM
There isn't much info up on any of those events, it's quite possible the judge comp isn't finalized either. Where did you get the China ShaiHai awards info from?

aventhunderer
11-27-2011, 08:03 AM
then again judges judge events not because they know what they'll get but rather because they want to be part of the event and make it successful. Compensations are things given to judges who volunteered on the event. If you are judging because you can get expensive and great promos then you should not be judging at all, you should be competing to get the top prize.
Those judges that received promos for their hard work should be thankful for what ever they received regardless of quantity simply because their work was appreciated and given value by the organizers.

Being a Volunteer Judge is not a job in which you earn. If you volunteer you should not expect something in return :)

generalbrat
11-27-2011, 11:28 AM
Being a Volunteer Judge is not a job in which you earn. If you volunteer you should not expect something in return :)

I could not agree more!!! :)

Moryg
11-27-2011, 11:54 AM
That's a pretty serious accusation. Might wanna rethink that.

I think he was (trying to be) sarcastic?

Toqtamish
11-27-2011, 12:05 PM
Internet poor medium for sarcasm. We need a sarcasm font.

Viteh
11-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Regardless of his reasons to judge a DMF, it's understandable for him to be upset about it. If what he's saying is correct, that's a pretty big difference in comps.

martinezjkind
11-28-2011, 02:52 AM
Meh , lets get rid of all judge comp and do more partial and full sponsorships. Get people who want to be judges in there and people who are in it for the comp out

Aaric
11-28-2011, 11:19 AM
The comp helps offset the travel costs. Many of us get hotel sponsorships but have to pay for our own flights. If you were to take all the judge comp and sell it at full value it still wouldn't cover the costs of flight, food, and w/e else you do that weekend. We're lucky to break even, unless we're local and didnt't need to fly in. If I wanted to make money, I would just stay home and go to work.

TwilightSeraph
11-28-2011, 12:20 PM
The comp helps offset the travel costs. Many of us get hotel sponsorships but have to pay for our own flights. If you were to take all the judge comp and sell it at full value it still wouldn't cover the costs of flight, food, and w/e else you do that weekend. We're lucky to break even, unless we're local and didnt't need to fly in. If I wanted to make money, I would just stay home and go to work.

Man I wish I had the same benefit to know that going will only put me a small under even instead of playing and hoping to hit top 16 so I CAN break even and not just be a whole triple digit negative...

ComicBkJim
11-28-2011, 05:28 PM
If you are judging because you can get expensive and great promos then you should not be judging at all,

If you volunteer you should not expect something in return :)

Johnathan,

I will have to disagree with you here. Why should I be working as a volunteer while the Tournament Organizer is making a significant profit on the event?

Our skill set is unique and not something anyone can do. I expect to be compensated commensurate with the hours I put in to help run an event. I would expect if I don't preform to expectations to not be invited to work again.

I judge to remain part of a game I don't always have the time and money to prepare for properly as a player. I also judge to help the game continue and run smoothly but I need to justify the time I spend judging to myself and my wife.

Ferrier13
11-29-2011, 05:08 AM
Well said Jim.

Judging well definitely has a skill set unique to it. Anyone who puts forth the effort we do as judges does deserve some compensation. Cryptozoic does a great job of taking care of the judges. Players don't understand what it takes to be a judge until they actually do it and most won't ever do it because they don't have the passion that those of us that judge often do. Many players have talked to me about playing more often and yes I do want to play more then I have in the past but I would never stop judging because I enjoy it to much (and not just the compensation I receive). Judging has made me a much better person. I look at who I was 5 years ago before I started judging this game and who I am today and I've changed in 1000 different ways. It is the single most profound growth experience in my life.

So anyone saying we shouldn't have compensation is kidding themselves. Plus the compensation that we receive costs Cryptozoic much less than it would to actually having to pay for additional sponsorships.

nohead
11-29-2011, 06:24 AM
With foreign judges award huge difference, is the most unhappy people do, all the competitions organized CZE, the judge will get the reward is announced in advance. And China has not announced. The organization of the holiday as CZE game, players who will get the LOOT card, but not in China.

Participate in the activities, pay a lot of cost and effort, if for money, then I would rather work from home. Just because love this game, we will join this event. When we went to the judge, there is no sponsorship, everything all the costs at their own expense. Including airfare, accommodation, transportation, meals. Get the reward is generally insufficient to cover these costs.

Above using the GOOGLE translation

Cogfizzle
11-29-2011, 06:29 AM
Man I wish I had the same benefit to know that going will only put me a small under even instead of playing and hoping to hit top 16 so I CAN break even and not just be a whole triple digit negative...

You're PLAYING not judging. It's not comparable in the slightest.

TBH if that's all the compensation you're offered then I wouldn't go, because that's a terrible offer. See how well the DMF runs with no judges then see what compensation they offer for the next one.

Can't you judge Magic instead? Surely that will be better supported.

nohead
11-29-2011, 06:44 AM
The comp helps offset the travel costs. Many of us get hotel sponsorships but have to pay for our own flights. If you were to take all the judge comp and sell it at full value it still wouldn't cover the costs of flight, food, and w/e else you do that weekend. We're lucky to break even, unless we're local and didnt't need to fly in. If I wanted to make money, I would just stay home and go to work.

You're really lucky. I have WOWTCG from China began .participate in 2008 2009 2010 National Champions; 2011, Beijing Shenzhen Shanghai DMF; 2010 2011 APCC.
All are four-digit losses.

cervidal
11-29-2011, 11:08 AM
Ever consider that it's because all the judges are volunteers that we so regularly see awful judging gaffes?

Locally, for most major card events, judges are paid staff. That CZE expects volunteers at all, compensated with product or not, is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

Suck it up and employ some folk, then we wouldn't see threads like this, or the hush thread that told everyone to be quiet on what they were given.

martinezjkind
11-29-2011, 01:05 PM
Ever consider that it's because all the judges are volunteers that we so regularly see awful judging gaffes?

Locally, for most major card events, judges are paid staff. That CZE expects volunteers at all, compensated with product or not, is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

Suck it up and employ some folk, then we wouldn't see threads like this, or the hush thread that told everyone to be quiet on what they were given.

I have had the honor to work with Tim Shields, who is a TO for many games and even WoWTCG when it outsourced for major events. He has done Pro Tours for MTG, Pro Circuits for VS. , and even larger Yugioh events and for the judges we get comp. Not sure where you are from cervidal , but if you wanted to make cash from events be a promoter not a judge.

cervidal
11-30-2011, 07:53 AM
I have had the honor to work with Tim Shields, who is a TO for many games and even WoWTCG when it outsourced for major events. He has done Pro Tours for MTG, Pro Circuits for VS. , and even larger Yugioh events and for the judges we get comp. Not sure where you are from cervidal , but if you wanted to make cash from events be a promoter not a judge.


It has absolutely zero to do with my wanting to make money.

I'm from Michigan. I have friends and acquaintances locally who are professionally employed to run Yu-Gi-Oh and M:TG events. High level or high volume events out here pay their staff, period.

If you want a professional event, train professionals. If you want a high quality staff instead of fanboys, pay a wage. If you want to avoid the entire topic of what cards and trinkets are 'fair', stop using product and start using pay.

Expecting consistant, high quality judging event running from a random group of fans, who are often expected to pay their own airfare and hotel, in exchange for a handful of cards that won't hold their value six months from now is naive and ludicrous.

Aaric
11-30-2011, 09:21 AM
It has absolutely zero to do with my wanting to make money.

I'm from Michigan. I have friends and acquaintances locally who are professionally employed to run Yu-Gi-Oh and M:TG events. High level or high volume events out here pay their staff, period.

If you want a professional event, train professionals. If you want a high quality staff instead of fanboys, pay a wage. If you want to avoid the entire topic of what cards and trinkets are 'fair', stop using product and start using pay.

Expecting consistant, high quality judging event running from a random group of fans, who are often expected to pay their own airfare and hotel, in exchange for a handful of cards that won't hold their value six months from now is naive and ludicrous.

Frankly, if they just offered us cash equivalent for judging instead of the promos and cards, I probably would have never applied. Compensating us in this way lets those of us who like the promos and loots and boxes keep them, and let's others sell them to the dealers. The latter, btw, is not hard to do as most dealers at events will offer judges/staff a set price for all their judge comp (varies depending what the promos are).

I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with a judge giving you a bad ruling or something, but don't assume we're "fanboys" just there to get some free $%!&. Yes I like the promos, but if I did a crappy job, I wouldn't have gotten hotel sponsorship for 9 major events.

cervidal
11-30-2011, 06:47 PM
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with a judge giving you a bad ruling or something, but don't assume we're "fanboys" just there to get some free $%!&. Yes I like the promos, but if I did a crappy job, I wouldn't have gotten hotel sponsorship for 9 major events.

I'm not holding any personal grudge out here. There were several well-publicized incidents. At DMF Philly a player was allowed to use a proxy card. In Las Vegas (I think), the OCR was outright overruled in the middle of the event.

Just think about the position you put yourself in - you volunteer to be close to unpaid labor for a for-profit institution. In the business world, the only folk who have this dubious distinction are interns with zero practical experience.

You may very well be a fine judge. You're one judge who, according to himself, shows a willingness to do a good, consistant job for peanuts. The company I work for has a guy on its web development team that does the same, far too good of a job for far too little pay. Long run and big picture, however, our web development team is consistantly poor because they're not willing to shell out even close to what competant people are worth.

Ferrier13
11-30-2011, 10:16 PM
The problem with having "paid" judges versus having volunteers is a whole giant can of worms. It brings in all kinds of liability issues, workers comp issues, benefits issues, not to mention the cost becomes astronomically higher for the company who already is running these large OP events at a loss in order to promote their games. The deal with providing comp through product, promos etc is that it allows them to provide much more in compensation but actually costs them a lot less then it would if they did so in straight up cash payments.

Now as for there being issues with policy like the issues you stated let me address those issues, the proxy issue at Philly, it was a hero. Seriously, complaining about someone being allowed to proxy a hero card. Get over it. Should it have been allowed maybe maybe not but the decision was made by the head judge and cryptozoic staff at the event.

As for the OCR issue at Continentals, it was unfortunate that that issue occurred the way it did but it was because of a miscommunication issue. Again, it comes down to everything is this game has to do with communication not just between the players but also between the players and the staff. Now, I know there were issues with the OCR and other documents, I know that Cryptozoic has worked to resolve those issues and I expect that those documents will be maintained much better now that those issues have occurred.

Aaric
12-01-2011, 01:40 AM
I'm not holding any personal grudge out here. There were several well-publicized incidents. At DMF Philly a player was allowed to use a proxy card. In Las Vegas (I think), the OCR was outright overruled in the middle of the event.

Just think about the position you put yourself in - you volunteer to be close to unpaid labor for a for-profit institution. In the business world, the only folk who have this dubious distinction are interns with zero practical experience.

You may very well be a fine judge. You're one judge who, according to himself, shows a willingness to do a good, consistant job for peanuts. The company I work for has a guy on its web development team that does the same, far too good of a job for far too little pay. Long run and big picture, however, our web development team is consistantly poor because they're not willing to shell out even close to what competant people are worth.

What do you mean "may"?

cervidal
12-01-2011, 05:42 AM
Now as for there being issues with policy like the issues you stated let me address those issues, the proxy issue at Philly, it was a hero. Seriously, complaining about someone being allowed to proxy a hero card. Get over it. Should it have been allowed maybe maybe not but the decision was made by the head judge and cryptozoic staff at the event.

Doesn't matter that it was 'only' a hero. That's still a major gaffe. This may be the most recognizable, universal CCG rule that exists. Just because you consider it minor doesn't mean others won't view it as a huge, avoidable mistake.

Also, to blame the OCR gaffe on miscommunication with the players is disingenuous. How is it miscommunication for a player to outright show that the OCR, in black and white, is contrary to the judge's interpretation and yet still have the judge overrule him? Judges messed up, period. Anything else is excuse making.



And, Aaric, I say 'may' because I don't know you and, to the best of my knowledge, haven't played in an event where you've made any ruling. I have only your say so that you're a good judge. This isn't a slight against you, it's simply unconfirmed. I could tell you I make 125k/year selling mortgages but no one would know if it's true or not on these boards because it's virtually unconfirmable. In your case, no proof is probably good - the only referees in pro sports that folk can name are generally ones who have a reputation based on a blown call.

Viteh
12-01-2011, 06:53 AM
Maybe we should get back on topic and talk about China.
So...where did you find out about the rewards for the chinese DMFs?

Ferrier13
12-01-2011, 07:08 AM
Doesn't matter that it was 'only' a hero. That's still a major gaffe. This may be the most recognizable, universal CCG rule that exists. Just because you consider it minor doesn't mean others won't view it as a huge, avoidable mistake.

Also, to blame the OCR gaffe on miscommunication with the players is disingenuous. How is it miscommunication for a player to outright show that the OCR, in black and white, is contrary to the judge's interpretation and yet still have the judge overrule him? Judges messed up, period. Anything else is excuse making.

Because I want this to stay constructive this is the last I will say on this but as for the hero decision it was about allowing a player to play because he had exhausted all options for getting that hero at the event. The decision came from the head judge and Cryptozoic employees. It was a HERO CARD which is not part of your deck. Yes it is required to play but how does it really affect the game. By allowing it the player was able to have a much more enjoyable experience. And ultimately that is what running these events and judging them is about is making sure the players have the best possible experience. And allowing a proxied hero doesn't negatively affect anyone other player's play experience, in my opinion.

Now as for the OCR issue at Vegas, you clearly do not know the full situation. All that I know comes second hand as well because I was not involved in that event but I did have discussions with the OCR writers, and the head judge for the event and the initial ruling was do to a miscommunication between the player involved and the head judge. The OCR was incorrect and had not been updated and if allowing a card that is not and was never intended to be instant be instant due to a typo in a document that was not updated due to circumstances out of the judging staffs control that would allow a bad play experience for a larger number of players then what occurred. Am I sorry that the issue occurred yes but there have been policies and procedures put in place since this event to help mitigate these issues in the future.

cervidal
12-01-2011, 05:55 PM
It was a HERO CARD which is not part of your deck.

So one of the most defining factors in WoW is not important enough to force players to follow the rules. Did the player even attempt to buy a class starter that was likely available though local merchants? By all accounts I've heard, no. It wasn't a limited release hero, and it wasn't a hero you have to pull out of a booster pack. It's a stock, guaranteed card out of a starter deck.

I haven't had a chance to acquire Hogger because I wasn't at the right event. I never acquired the two Scourgewar DK heroes that were limited edition. Your entire justification opens the door to allow me to proxy any legal hero for any event simply by making up an excuse. Are you sure that's a path you want to start down?

Ferrier13
12-01-2011, 10:33 PM
From what I was told yes, the player attempted to purchase the class starter but there were NONE available. And no this opens no doors what soever because it was a SINGLE time specific decision that occurred. It doesn't set a precedent.

A similar issue occurred at worlds this year where a player was allowed to use the Iphone App. because he left his hero in his hotel room which was 20 -30 minutes away for a not readily available hero for a classic event. Again, this doesn't set any precedent, it was just a one time decision by the people in charge of the event to allow a player to be able to play in the event rather not be able to play in the event because he was missing a hero card. (and no it wasn't hooger, it wasn't varanis, or one of the heros from the cataclysm colelctors edition.) Seriously you guys need to understand, it is just about providing a positive play experience for a player that possibly travelled thousands of miles in order to be at an event and for some reason or other wouldn't be able to play because of a MISSING HERO. It's not a big deal, Stop trying to make it one.

cervidal
12-02-2011, 06:15 AM
It's not a big deal, Stop trying to make it one.

Rules are rules, guy. Even better, you're now telling us you can arbitrarily bend or break them at your personal discretion for, functionally, the 'greater good'.

You honestly don't think this sets a precident?

First this hero bit happens, then there's the UK event where folk were allowed to use proxied cards. Those were allowed under the same justification you used, yet there were clearly people angry about this.

If you think folk aren't going to remember these and try to use them to cover their own gaffes, you're a much more trusting person than I am.

Cogfizzle
12-02-2011, 06:26 AM
Cervidal. You're just wrong. Really wrong.

In both cases the judges made the correct call. They looked at what the written rules were and made the correct decision to overrule them in that specific instance. Entirely correctly.

The only person you're convincing is yourself.


I think it sets a precedent. I think it sets a fantastic precedent that I'm fully behind.

ComicBkJim
12-02-2011, 11:05 AM
I actually think Cerviadal is correct. The players should come better prepared.

You shouldn't count on being able to pick up a card at the venue.

You have the card or you don't. I think in both cases the people in charge errored and in hind sight would probably not do it again.

Jim

teligadas
12-04-2011, 12:13 PM
you Two are just rediculous. By trying to insist that the judges made bad calls your pretty much saying that u think those players should have just sat at home and not gone to a major tournament... do u guys not realize that its not easy going to a tournament all the time. maybe if you are in the states or a major populated city u will one day have the chance of tournaments being close, but for many going to tournaments its a big ordeal, we dont all have tons of money to spend at our disposal to go play a tcg for a weekend, and u dont know what those individuals lives are like. Just think how U would feel if there was a major tournament coming in your area and you were missing a hero card, would u want to have to not go to the tournament just because you couldn't get the card.. no u would want to go and have fun.... And dont even try to come back and say that they should have gone to all the stores to find this card, cause if that was you, you would probably come back and complain on the forums after that about the game being a money grab cause u had to buy all these cards to try and find one to enter a tournament

Grow up, this isn't a high stakes game at a casino, this is wow tcg and we're all just here to have fun

cervidal
12-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Grow up, this isn't a high stakes game at a casino, this is wow tcg and we're all just here to have fun

I don't show up to an event expecting to be able to use cards I don't physically have on hand. At Ohio States', I ended up using a different hero than the one I planned on playing because I had misplaced mine and could not find another copy. It didn't even dawn on me to ask the tournament organizer to do otherwise because proxying is explicitly forbidden by the rules.

That's what makes the judge's call even worse. At the current time, because there are virtually no racial or spec restrictions on heroes, you have 4-6 heroes to play for every class.

I could ALMOST (not quite) understand the Philly ruling if the person in question was playing a monster hero (except they're virtually a dime for a dozen) but he wasn't. He was playing a faction druid.

Ferrier13
12-04-2011, 10:29 PM
Last time I'm going to say this, from the viewpoint of any head judge or tournament organizer, The viewpoint should be about maximizing the enjoyment of the players while minimizing negatively game play experience. Allowing a proxy hero in this instance, did exactly that. It maximized the enjoyability of a player and there was virtually NO negative impact on the other players. In this instance, I would allow this proxy EVERY time as the head judge. This DOES NOT set a precedent, it is an exception to the rule. Would I allow a player to come up and proxy say Hogger absolutely not. Would i allow a player to come up and use the Iphone App because he left his hero in his hotel 25 minutes away from the venue and he is unable to find another copy because no one brought classic heroes to sell (IE. Vendors). Yes I would allow that. Because IT DOES NOT cause a negative impact on anyone's game and provides a positive experience to this player. Any argument that this sets bad a precedent or that it is breaking the rules is bull****.

nohead
12-11-2011, 06:27 PM
Complain about the result is of no use.
CZE is the player focus on quantity rather than the judge's capacity and quality. And more judges will not care about satisfaction.
Judges are volunteers, do not return, so CZE is unfair to give awards by region. In China, I feel charity rather than reward.
Shanghai DMF 2 个 VIP players participate in the competition, because the U.S. players sent a complaint in some cases, "China DMF is not to VIP players packs", CZE will be to fill. The Chinese players said, but no response.
This is the CZE gave me the feeling.