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View Full Version : Unbalanced outcomes in 1 v 1 (ONLY)



Ssobaekil
12-24-2012, 09:25 PM
through a lot of testing with this game in 1 v 1 matches ( single or double super heroes ) there tends to be a large gap in points at the end of the game. If this is also true for you, then i have some ideas that have helped to balance the games BUT if you have more ideas i would like to hear them.

1.) We took the man of steel out of the deck all together. This card is unbalanced like no other! Whoever acquires this card usually dominated the game if they get it before the 3rd Super villain is defeated that is.

2.) In 2 headed format, we took out Wonder Woman Super Hero as an option. Leaving the other 6 super heroes (we dont have the manhunter to use)

3.) I do not know if it is in the rules of how exactly to play a turn out, but we have played it where you can play cards from your hand, gain cards, and play more cards from your hand. Example: Aquaman can play heat vision, gain a Kick and put it on top of his deck, then play Kid Flash to then draw it, then play Kick for more power.

step 3 makes the game more of a strategy game as opposed to dumping your hand and just gaining the cards.

aoineko
12-25-2012, 04:13 AM
1) Feel free to tune the deck however you like to better suit your play needs.

2) Again, play with whatever superheros you want, bit out of curiosity are you taking Wonder Woman out because you feel she is over or underpowered? I'm not in either camp and curious about your reasoning.

3) That is how the game is supposed to be played. You do not have to play all your cards before buying cards.

Ssobaekil
12-25-2012, 04:39 AM
Replies:
1.) tuning the deck makes the game no fun. Its like any other card game where when you ban something, the game starts to slip away. We took serious consideration into even taking out Man of Steel, but it is truly unbalanced. I had a turn where i went from just M.o.S. in my hand to buying the entire board and like 7 kicks.

2.) Wonder Woman in 2 heads is super over powered for the following:
a.) She goes after villain cards which no other hero needs, and in a 2 heads game you tend to go for cards that suit BOTH of
your super heroes. Thus, she is left a good chunk of the villain cards in the line up.

b.) She sets up every other super hero in the game. Pick any hero.... start with more than 5 cards every turn..... The 2nd
super hero triggers more often / more times a turn, EVERY TURN essentially.

And yes we took her out. And yes we pick our super heroes. In the 2 heads, we dealt 3 super heroes to player 1, they picked 1 and mucked 2, then player 2 was dealt 3 super heroes, they picked 1 and mucked 2. Then player 1 is dealt 2 super heroes, picks 1, player 2 the same. Wonder Woman was an auto pick in either round of drafting super heroes. Not saying she cant be beat, its just drastically harder for the other player to even keep up.

houjix
12-25-2012, 11:06 AM
Played team up variant yesterday with my son. He had Wonder Woman and GL, I had Aquaman and MM. I won by 5 or 6 with both scores in the 40's. I snagged Princess Diana before he could and grabbed 3 super villians on 1 turn, plus I played Batman to grab the 1 equipment in the lineup and bought the fifth card and I ended up with only 6 power or so. My son probably would have won had the Anti-monitor not forced him to to place Atrocitous into the line-up.(He did get it back though.)

The point is, sometimes you have to take cards to slow down your opponent just as much as you need to take cards that work well with your hero. If your opponent has taken 2 Suicide Squads and your turn comes around and third pops up and you don't buy it's your fault, not the game's.

Sometimes strong combos appear and one player get's to take advantage of it. Other times you sit there with Wonder Woman and no Villians appear for many turns. It's just a game. Over the long run things will normalize and other heroes will appear just as overpowered, except Flash. Poor Flash.

Ssobaekil
12-25-2012, 11:16 AM
Flash is really good. Get a location, or any other card that draws and you are set. Plus he goes 1st, which makes a difference in this game! going 1st is a huge advantage. Look at it this way, the board has 5 cards (1 good, 2 ok..., and 2 bad) the 1st player has the opportunity to get the good card, flipping a random one to replace, now the 2nd player has 2 ok, 2 bad, and random. It continues like this. the 1st player has the option at the "better" or "more suitable" cards.

Yes you can block wonder woman or batman or cyborg or superman, BUT wonder woman always the super villain pile and superman always has kicks (early on that is, and kicks generally dont run out).

aoineko
12-25-2012, 12:50 PM
I'm fascinated to see people arguing over what Superheroes and cards they find unbalanced. I have had no issues with Wonder Woman being game breaking. As someone else mentioned, you might need to practice a little more hate drafting. It's a little rougher in Brave and the Bold (what I really wanted 2-Headed to be called), since you usually have multiple card types you want, but it's an important strategic component. Saying that Super-Villains are always available for purchase for WW doesn't really make her busted, since they're really expensive and she shouldn't be able to buy them every turn, unless it's late in the game already.

Ssobaekil
12-25-2012, 03:12 PM
Are you familiar with the name Nick Toth? 7th in Worlds for the WoW tcg this last year. Meaning he is good at strategy and card games. He also plays other deck building games like ascension like crazy. He never takes cards out or does stuff to tweak a games design, and he was one of the two of our group that was the first to have WW pulled out.

Again, she can be beat and yes, someone can hate draft her. However, in the Brave and the Bold, you have a 50% chance to see any given card since it is 1 v 1. There are 30+ villains plus the 8 - 12 super villains. Thus she sees about 19 - 23 villains herself, and your opponent cannot hate every villain or else their deck will just suck and they will get no bonus from their Super Heroes which help to change the game into your favor. Lets assume they snag half of the villains they see, this leaves half they didnt snag on the board meaning that WW gets to see about 25 - 29 villains including super villains. This is enough, especially early in the game, to throw the game out of wack. Once WW starts, she is like the Juggernaut, plowing through the board and villain with much haste. Sure not every turn, but drawing 7 - 9 cards EoT sets up dumb turns, allows a greater chance to draw blocks, and allows more cards to help out ANY other Super Hero.

If you do not believe us on this, test it out. Play it straight up a few times where your opponent legit grabs what they need and snags villains here and there. Then play it where they try to steal as much as they can. In the game where they try to "block" WW, your deck will be full of useless cards for your Hero Triggers, minus Two-face (helps trigger Lantern and Flash).

Her team will be beat occasionally, and some games may even be closer than others. We have played a ton of games, and we found that she is over powered on an above average basis. Thus, making the matches unfun.

Oh this is also thinking competitively, which nick and myself are for WoW Tcg. And the others in our group want to win all the time too. In a fun game between two people wanting to just have fun and dont care about the "best" picks in the line-up, then yea WW is just as good as anyother.

Thanks for reading this! For real, i ranted a bit here and im sorry.

sivartalappes
12-25-2012, 08:50 PM
*reads the rants on Wonder Woman*

...

I still say Cyborg is the winner. In every game I've played that someone has had Cyborg (all games but 2), the person that had Cyborg won, because Powers+equipment=more than all other heroes needs and TWO powers nearly every turn!

Ssobaekil
12-25-2012, 09:19 PM
Sivartalappes i agree Cyborg is really good, prolly the best for 1 Super hero vs Another.

The WW issue is for 2 heads or Brave and the bold as they wanted to call it. In 1 hero vs 1 hero, WW is just another hero about average.

I challenge you and a friend who is good at picking the correct cards to test this out. have one of you auto be WW and randomly pick your second hero. Then have player 2 pick two heroes. Play a good number of matches (1 - 3 is not a good sample size here) You will see how good WW is in this format.

I think we as a group with 2 heads have around 30 games with WW. Then we cut her.

LexLuthorJr
12-27-2012, 01:10 AM
First, I think this game, like most DBGs, was mostly designed for multiplayer. I really don't see myself every playing this game 1v1. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, but there are other gaming options out there for anyone wanting to play 1v1.

Second, I don't see why taking one card out really changes the dynamic of the game. How often does it really show up anyway? I played five games in a row with some friends of mine, and we saw Man of Steel once, maybe twice, if I recall.

Ssobaekil
12-27-2012, 06:13 AM
We burn through the main deck pretty quick, and we see it almost every game. Also, the person who gets it tends to have the bat signal, thus effectively using it 2 or 3 times a deck cycle. It happens more than you know.

LexLuthorJr
12-30-2012, 11:46 AM
Wow. Really? You must have a much different play style than we do. Even in a four-person game, we barely get through half of the main deck.

Ssobaekil
12-30-2012, 06:25 PM
Oh it happens a lot. You can also combo it with Aquaman's trident or Bat-signal to play it sooner. In 1 v 1, makes a huge difference.

Also, we play 1 v 1 a lot because not all of us are free at the same times. Thus, we have 2 people, and we play 1 v 1 "brave and the bold" format A.k.a. 2 heads ...

StormKing
01-02-2013, 02:22 AM
There are only 3 characters who can't effectively hate draft Wonder Woman: Batman, Superman and Cyborg.
Flash: Many of the villains can play into Flash's theme, Penguin, Two Face, (Riddler is great for any hero), Clayface. Lex Luthor, Black Manta and Joker on the supervillain side.
Green Lantern: Really? He can buy whatever he wants to trigger his power.
Martian Manhunter: favors villains and heroes
Aquaman: Favors cards with cost 5 or less, those can be villains.

"Attack" villains like Bane and Scarecrow will cause the Wonder Woman player to be forced into going for defenses, again, nabbing a villain from her and then causing a future choice to likely be not a villain as well. Suicide Squad is another that is really just hard to pass up for any character. Wonder Woman's "payoff" is very high, but at the price of wanting a card type that is highly sought after and entirely reliant on what the lineup is on her turn.

What I will say is that the flow of the game is much different with her as your opponent. The choices are much different compared to putting in other superheroes. To me, that's not a bad thing. I have a lot of games under my belt versus Wonder Woman where I've beaten the player using her 1v1 (yes, even in Brave and the Bold). A lot of those choices come with gaining more experience, you'll see after you've played more that she's fairly easy to shut down.

Ssobaekil
01-02-2013, 10:39 AM
First off, Im not talking in 1v1 with WW. WW is fine in 1v1, we DONT care about WW in 1v1 (read whole thread).

Secondly,
"after we have played more games"........ LMAO. I have played probably over 100 (being realistic) and my group as a whole probably over 500 or 600. We are experienced card game players, we figured out this game and what picks are the best, and we all know how to try to "shut down" or "c. block" another player.

Even then, WW is still the best by far. If you can beat her, then one of the following is true:

1.) You had an amazing game where the line up favored you and not WW
2.) Your 2v2 comp was good, such as Cyborg and GL, and you opponent was WW and Batman or something (where Batman needs Equipment and WW needs Villains, and Cyborg snags Equipment, etc...)
3.) The player piloting the WW + ??? comp was not as good a player as you. (I can give my 9 year old brother WW and cyborg to use, and he knows how to play the game, and I can use Batman and Superman and still beat him. )


You play WW and any other hero against your friend and look at the point spreads. The hardest comp with WW is the Batman or Flash, but still that's really good. Play more than 1 game as i stated earlier. You need a large enough sample size to effectively evaluate the overpoweredness of WW.

Clavaat
01-02-2013, 10:01 PM
The thing about this DBG I've noticed over all the others I've played is that this one relies more heavily on luck. You are relying on the Main Deck to dish out everything you need at exactly the right time or you will lose. That being said, I understand that you are saying WW will have higher odds of winning in a given game, however I truly cannot fathom that she should be ban-worthy. In your last post, your first 2 scenarios effectively accentuate the point I make about luck being a big factor. What if the WW player misses the opportunity to buy a villain in a turn simply due to a bad draw? Given that the WW's deck is mostly villains, is it likely that she would have enough defensive draw to handle supervillains? If she does get the tougher teammates, she has a lot to recover for that the other player may not have to, like a Cyborg Supes combo or something.

I'm not complaining that this game is luck-based, as a matter of fact I tend to see a trend of more close games because of it. Suicide Squad coming out at just the right time can mean a win or loss even if one player has had more supervillains defeated, along with Utility Belt and Green Arrow. The game allows for many ways to redeem yourself within the point-spread because you never know what is going to come out from the Main Deck at any given time.

Also, not to be a dick, could you post a spreadsheet or something of your statistics for this game? I'd be curious to read them...especially since over 100 games in a little over a week (especially given the holidays), sounds like a bit of a stretch.

Ssobaekil
01-03-2013, 04:11 PM
The game has been out for more than a week.... It has been almost a month.

Anyways, Lets say you are WW and the Flash. If you miss a villain, something else good will be on the board, such as a defense or draw card to trigger the Flash (or whatever 2nd hero you have).

WW doesnt always take the villain, she has the option to take something really good off the board and let your opponent chose to take the villain to block you. However, there might be something better on the board or more cost efficient, THUS the leave the villain on the board.

Do you see the logic there? You dont HAVE to take the villains each turn, just leave them for the next turn. And seeing as how there are more villains than any other card type... she has great odds of "flipping" a new one into the line-up.

dynamic_duo
01-03-2013, 06:25 PM
Wonder Woman is strong but she is not broken. We have been playing endless amounts of games for weeks now both 1 vs 1 and Multi-player. I think it is safe to say depending on the Super-Hero and game type they have varying power levels. Every Super_hero has a shot against any other Super-Hero. The game is very well balanced and there is a great degree of luck(especially in 1 vs 1 games) in this game. I think only card that can be close to being viewed as over-powered is Man of Steel but that would be it's own unique thread. The highest win percentage Super-Hero we have had is Martain Manhunter but every play group probably has a different view on what is "too strong".

Ssobaekil
01-03-2013, 07:03 PM
I posted about the Man of Steel in this thread. He is out in all 1 v 1 formats we play.

I still believe WW is too overpowered, we thought to put her back in a few days ago do to people's comments just to see again since she has been out of our games for a while. She dominated once again, thus she was gone. Keep in mind again, this is only the Brave and the Bold variant (2 heads).

Dr.Doom
01-05-2013, 10:49 AM
Ssobaekil isn't wrong.

There's no way to make a game like this and it be balanced in every format. Different abilities means different strengths. That's just the reality of it.

My group plays with 4 or 5 people minimum. Honestly, I don't even buy games that can't handle 5 players. And if you think you can win with Superman in a 5 player game, you're playing with toddlers. But in a 2 player game, why not? He's balanced for that kind of thing, just not when he's only going to see 20% of cards that make up a small fraction of the deck.

I love Cryptozoic. We play the crap out of Food Fight, DC DBG, and Hot Rod Creeps. Love 'em. Can't get enough. But let's not pretend that every thing they do is gold in every situation. It's an unrealistic expectation.

Ssobaekil
01-06-2013, 09:30 AM
Toddlers has nothing to do with it. If the board favors you every turn, or most turns, it doesnt matter what hero you have. The odds are less with superman yes, but people can do it. I played a 4/5 player game using Superman and i went last and won. The players in my group are not bad, i just had blocks, good hands, and smart buys.

B.Larkdighter
03-04-2013, 08:46 PM
My kids love to play the "two headed" variant. Wonder Woman + Martian Manhunter is tough to beat.