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arien
01-19-2013, 04:27 PM
Example: captain cold is defeated and my green lantern flips up. I have already played 3 different cards costing 1 or more


Question 1: the moment you defeat captain cold and put him into the discard pile is when all face down heros flip up correct?

Question 2: when they flip up, do the super hero cards abilities trigger even if one has met the threshold for the requirements while they were face down? Does one get the extra power, rewards etc or does one have to play to meet the threshold again (I am guessing because the card was "hidden")?

Question 2a: If it is the case that the card was "hidden," and one has to replay to activate the triggers, can wonder woman enable the player to draw at the end of the turn for each of the villains gained (including captain cold) that was acquired prior to the hero flipping up?

Question 2b: same hypothetical different hero: for flash, I am guessing the same rule applies just like all of the location cards?

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brodiewan
01-19-2013, 04:53 PM
No, you do not get your powers the turn you flip after Cold was beaten.

arien
01-19-2013, 07:15 PM
Why? And what about the other scenarios posted.

sivartalappes
01-19-2013, 10:57 PM
I would say that yes, all heroes flip back upright once Captain Cold is defeated, however they are "blind" to the cards you played before defeating Captain Cold... so they'd only activate for cards you play after beating Captain Cold (for instance you play a "draw" card with Flash after you defeated Cold, then you can draw your extra card, but if you played the "draw" card before beating Captain Cold, you don't get an additional card since Flash "didn't see it")

JimL
01-20-2013, 12:50 AM
I believe green lanterns power would trigger as the game as a whole is tracking what you do and when your hero flips up it see what had been done the rest of the turn. Flash would be a bit differant it sees what you have done that turn based on looking at the game and if you did something to draw a card than your opportunity to use the first time a card would have you draw a card would have passed.

The ww thing is actually covered specifically in the rule book for captain cold you would only draw extra cards for villains you gained after ww was flipped back up captain cold would definitly not count.

Gl and mm trigger based on the entirety of your turn rather on specific actions.

Ssobaekil
01-20-2013, 07:42 AM
Yea, the rule book has a lot of specific card rulings

sivartalappes
01-20-2013, 09:14 AM
I still say that none of the superheros trigger from anything played while they are face down. Think of it as them being kidnapped and blindfolded (facedown so they can't see the cards you play). They become face up once Captain Cold is defeated and can see again, but they have no idea HOW you defeated Captain Cold (what heroes/villains/powers/equipment you used), because they couldn't see them, so they don't activate unless you play cards to meet their needs AFTER they can see again.

Shirik
01-20-2013, 11:01 AM
I would say that yes, all heroes flip back upright once Captain Cold is defeated, however they are "blind" to the cards you played before defeating Captain Cold... so they'd only activate for cards you play after beating Captain Cold (for instance you play a "draw" card with Flash after you defeated Cold, then you can draw your extra card, but if you played the "draw" card before beating Captain Cold, you don't get an additional card since Flash "didn't see it")
I agree with this, and I think it's consistent with what the rulebook says about WW. This is how my playgroup has been playing it.

arien
01-20-2013, 01:13 PM
I agree with this, and I think it's consistent with what the rulebook says about WW. This is how my playgroup has been playing it.

The reason I asked the questions is to get a broader picture of how wording in this game matters and interactions with certain hero cards with captain cold. All four of the original post's questions were aimed at touching the surface of game interactions of "game checks" "triggers" and "timing." The wording of cards are particularly important to the competitive minded and there are basically 5 different "types of heros," based on the wording of their abilities. Additionally, there are only two references we have for hero interactions:

* "Your Super Hero gives you an ability that you may choose to use during your turn." (page 7)
* "Captain Cold: While a Super Hero is face down, it has no abilities. If the Wonder Woman Super Hero defeats Captain Cold, her game text does not trigger." (page 12)

Every other ruling in the rulebook (which is well written for the most part and covers most questions) gives a logical explanation for the ruling. But the Wonder Woman ruling against Captain Cold and certain in-game situations that popped up among several players at the store I frequent required me to post on behalf of the players, many of whom are experienced, competitive Magic players and are arguing for outcomes to favor them.

The Different types of Super Heroes

Aquaman
In a previous post on the board, Aquaman was ruled that every card immediately receives a "check" by the game the instant the gain/buy a card. (Post #7 by Matt Hyra:http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=21486). So any cards gained before Captain Cold is defeated can't go on top of the deck.

Flash
This would make sense as it makes the card subject to the same rules like the location's drawing rules. If you had played a card that allowed you to draw a card before defeating Captain Cold, you wouldn't be able to draw for Flash's effect if you play another card that allows you to draw. This is because the game checks if the draw card is the first one of the turn.

Wonder Woman
All we have is a statement we can't draw because of it. But why is this the case? Some would like to argue that the game checks at the end of the turn so therefore the ruling doesn't make sense.

It would make sense if Captain Cold missed some modifier usually given to villain cards bought/gained while Wonder Woman is face up. However this would not make sense because then effect resolution would question this. According to the rulebook page 10, "When you play a card that triggers another effect, like on your Super Hero or a Location you control, fully resolve the card you are playing before resolving any secondary effects triggered by your card play." When Captain Cold is bought from the board, then placed into the discard pile of the player, in clockwise order starting with the player who bought card, players would flip their heroes face-up. Then, Wonder Woman would place its "modifier," letting the game "know" that at the end of the turn they can draw an extra card.

A broader question if captain cold does miss a Wonder Woman modifier: Does this mean the face-down super hero is "hidden" and hidden cards cannot give or receive modifiers because the game can't track cards that are hidden? (Post #4 by Matt Hyra on hidden cards http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=21608) So cards like Solomon Grundy or Villains bought/gained and placed on top of the deck by a player with Wonder Woman and Aquaman (team-up variant) won't trigger the extra draw?

Batman/Superman (+1 for each...)

I grouped these two into a section together because of the text but Superman does offer a very interesting case and test about the "always on effects" and "flipping face up" mechanics of the game.

If the game indeed checks every time you play/buy/gain/destroy/discard a card because of applying the Aquaman ruling, I am guessing that one has to decide if they receive the bonus upon playing the card or not, correct? The power bonuses of Batman and Superman are not like "flip effects" and the game would not backtrack to give you the power for the appropriate card types played (inconsistent with the aquaman ruling), correct?

Following on this and if this is the way the game checks all the time, then if I used a kick to help defeat Captain Cold, my Superman flips face up and then I play another kick, would i get the +1 power for playing a different superpower this turn?

Some people have argued "Yes" because it was face down and since it was hidden at the time the first kick was played, the +1 power is a bonus that can be gained after it flips up and the player plays a 2nd kick (which would be semi if not wholly consistent with most of the people's posts on this thread). Some people have argued "No" because even after the hero flips up, the game checks the "uniqueness" of the card to see if it is indeed a different card, and since it is not, you have already missed the opportunity to gain +1 power from the first kick.

Cyborg/Green Lantern/Martian Manhunter "if you play X or more card type,..."
The questions about the interaction between Captain Cold, face-down, and these super heroes is testing the "hidden" rule, "you may choose to use effect" rule and "threshold."

The best way to approach this is through these scenarios that depict the 2nd question in the original post.

Green Lantern: Player A plays Doomsday and Super Strength, defeats Captain Cold, flips up Green Lantern, plays a Kick. Can Player A receive the +3 power bonus in this situation?

Martian Manhunter: Player B plays Doomsday and other non-villain cards to reach 9 power, defeats Captain Cold, flips up Martian Manhunter, and plays a Two-Face. After resolving Two-Face's card, can player B receive the +3 Power bonus?

Cyborg (not really a captain cold situation, but can certainly be applied): Player C plays batsignal and chooses to not draw a card ("you may choose" rule). If Player C plays another equipment, am I able to draw for Cyborg's effect even if I chose to not use it after I played the first piece of equipment?

Matt_Hyra
01-20-2013, 09:11 PM
Your SuperHero doesn't see things that it was not face up to witness.

sivartalappes
01-20-2013, 09:46 PM
Your SuperHero doesn't see things that it was not face up to witness.

See? Like I said. lol

Clavaat
01-22-2013, 11:49 PM
So I'm guessing this is the same ruling for Atrocitus, if you beat him first, the card underneath the hero goes back on top of your deck immediately, then continue your turn, correct?

EDIT: Don't have the rulebook handy at the moment, sorry.

Matt_Hyra
01-23-2013, 02:07 AM
So I'm guessing this is the same ruling for Atrocitus, if you beat him first, the card underneath the hero goes back on top of your deck immediately, then continue your turn, correct?

EDIT: Don't have the rulebook handy at the moment, sorry.

That is correct.