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View Full Version : Why did Hex go completely away from the mechanics of wowtcg?



Ferrier13
05-09-2013, 01:31 PM
This is a question for the hex designers. Why did you go completely away from every single mechanic that made wowtcg different from the other tcgs out there when you developed the game play of hex?

It feels like you have made a clear cut pronouncement that the mechanics for wow tcg weren't any good by making such a huge shove to be more like previous tcgs from other companies. It is definitely disappointing for myself because the different mechanics that were used in wowtcg were the whole reason I shifted to wowtcg from other tcgs. I would just like to hear from the designers why they chose to go with the mechanics they chose in hex. Specifically, a "land" based resource system where a player can get resource screwed and resource flooded, non-persistent damage, a non target able combat system where the defender always has the advantage.

nearlysober
05-09-2013, 01:37 PM
I love wowtcg. I play it a lot with my friends. I think it's a great system, but... when I go to local shops, I never see anyone playing it. When I go to PAX... the wowtcg section is small.

Yes it's younger than Magic... but sometimes I think it's just too different.

For people like me who never played a TCG before WOWTCG it's great, and I find Magic odd... but maybe WOWTCG may have just been too "foreign" for the mainstream tcg crowd?

cronedog
05-09-2013, 01:40 PM
This is a question for the hex designers. Why did you go completely away from every single mechanic that made wowtcg different from the other tcgs out there when you developed the game play of hex?

It feels like you have made a clear cut pronouncement that the mechanics for wow tcg weren't any good by making such a huge shove to be more like previous tcgs from other companies. It is definitely disappointing for myself because the different mechanics that were used in wowtcg were the whole reason I shifted to wowtcg from other tcgs. I would just like to hear from the designers why they chose to go with the mechanics they chose in hex. Specifically, a "land" based resource system where a player can get resource screwed and resource flooded, non-persistent damage, a non target able combat system where the defender always has the advantage.

I agree with you. It looks like most of the mechanics are cribbed from magic the gathering. I'm going to support the kickstarter because I want to support a tcg (I liked the older ccg name :) ) with a strong online vision.

When I was a pro card flopper I was always a bigger fan of the decipher ccgs, where every game had unique mechanics and a stronger emphasis on skill (being resource screwed and only playing with a small portion of the deck were bad designs of magic).

I guess I'm halfway between a fanboy and a hater at this point. Love the art, dedicationg and vision for online play, not super thrilled over stale mechanices.

Fireblast
05-09-2013, 01:42 PM
Magic has been running for 20 years with an ever growing community.
WOWTCG has been running for 6 years with an ever shrinking community (including myself).

If mana flood/screw is really an issue, it can be sorted threw mulligan options in a digital game, for example you could choose X cards from your hand to be reshuffled in your deck to draw the next X or X-1 resources of your deck...

The threshold and colorless mana is just so much better than MtG's system

~

cronedog
05-09-2013, 01:43 PM
I love wowtcg. I play it a lot with my friends. I think it's a great system, but... when I go to local shops, I never see anyone playing it. When I go to PAX... the wowtcg section is small.

Yes it's younger than Magic... but sometimes I think it's just too different.

For people like me who never played a TCG before WOWTCG it's great, and I find Magic odd... but maybe WOWTCG may have just been too "foreign" for the mainstream tcg crowd?

I loved wowtcg too. i was almost a wow clone, so I can't agree with "too foreign". I did think that the changes made the game superior, maninly the quest and resource system and doing away with defending + permanant damage gave the game a better pace.

nearlysober
05-09-2013, 01:46 PM
I meant "too foreign" for someone who had been playing Magic for 10 years then tried to pickup WoWTCG.

I think it related to the MMO game great.

Xenavire
05-09-2013, 04:58 PM
I will say this now - Magic is easier for someone with TCG experience to learn. I just got into Magic as WoWTCG was being released, and despite every person who played Magic buying up all the cards, no-one enjoyed it that much, and I was incredibly confused, while Magic was actually easy to learn.

I don't want to say either one is better than the other, but when one format or style is easier to learn, at least the basics, then it is the smart choice for an MMO (where you want to expose hundreds of newbies to it, and have them learn it on the go.)

I have to say though, the changes from Magic are just as simple yet complex, and fit together very well, so it might be the right choice for other reasons too.

OP_Kyle
05-09-2013, 04:59 PM
When I was a pro card flopper I was always a bigger fan of the decipher ccgs, where every game had unique mechanics and a stronger emphasis on skill (being resource screwed and only playing with a small portion of the deck were bad designs of magic).

Oh yea? Glad to see you still involved in the hobby! I worked at Decipher for 8 years :-)

cronedog
05-09-2013, 10:18 PM
I will say this now - Magic is easier for someone with TCG experience to learn. I just got into Magic as WoWTCG was being released, and despite every person who played Magic buying up all the cards, no-one enjoyed it that much, and I was incredibly confused, while Magic was actually easy to learn.

I don't want to say either one is better than the other, but when one format or style is easier to learn, at least the basics, then it is the smart choice for an MMO (where you want to expose hundreds of newbies to it, and have them learn it on the go.)

I have to say though, the changes from Magic are just as simple yet complex, and fit together very well, so it might be the right choice for other reasons too.

I typoed above, I meant to say Wowtcg was almost a magic clone. I'm interested in your opinions, because I'm not sure I get it yet.

Wow tcg changed
*no lands, seems to be simpler to put any card face down as a generic resource, no different colors of resources
* no defenders

These changes seem to make the game easier to learn (and in my opinion, mechanically superior due to the no mana screw and having the attackers choose the flow of combat).

Was it the deck building that was harder?


I'm interested in the implication of the resource system set up in Hex, but I'll reserve judgement until I get a few games under my belt. The MMO aspects seem really unique as well.

cronedog
05-09-2013, 10:25 PM
Oh yea? Glad to see you still involved in the hobby! I worked at Decipher for 8 years :-)

I'm mostly a board gamer now. Fond memories of LOTR online is part of what convinced me to help fund Hex. I owe a huge thanks to decipher games. I started playing them when I was in the 4th game. The amount of depth and large number of rules may have made it impenetrable to some, but I feel like it shaped me as a person. I do patent law now, and the large number of statues is similar to all the game rules and the case law is similar to all the erratas.

S117
05-09-2013, 11:25 PM
Honestly I wish this had been the way the game went too...I like the WoW TCG better because of this, as well as Shadow Era (Though it's basically a WoW clone)...

But yeah the only reason I play Magic is because on just about any day of the week I can pick up my deck and head down to the game shop and get a few games in and tournaments every week...If there's no players there's no game :(

Hell I'd still be buying Magi-Nation today if it had been as successful :D



Decipher huh? You know...I still have the Fajo Collection buried in my closet somewhere...

Cut my teeth on the first Star Wars game too...I mean come on...you can blow up a freaking planet with the Death Star in it...Not that you ever would...in a tournament anyway...

Rapkannibale
05-09-2013, 11:31 PM
Mark Rosewater has a great podcast called Drive to Work (you can find it on iTunes). He did an episode on the mana system where he explains why he thinks it is a good and integral part of magic. If you are interested in hearing his opinion I would recommend it. :)

In terms of the defender being able to choose blockers, to me this makes combat more interesting. As an attacker I have to anticipate what the defender is going to do. It also keeps the defending player more involved in combat as he/she has many more decisions to make.

Kalius
05-10-2013, 12:14 AM
Hell I'd still be buying Magi-Nation today if it had been as successful :D


I miss Magi-Nation, it was such a well made game, such a shame the people it was sold to decided not to continue it.

Storm_Fireblade
05-10-2013, 01:14 AM
I haven't played the WoW-TCG, but if I got it right from reading here, that game has no active blocking during battle, meaning no defenders. If so - I'm even more happy that Cryptozoic choose to take the basics from Magic for HEX, because not only do I want to be an active part in battle, even while defending, but I would feel that I missed out on so much depth as an attacker, if I didn't have to think about how my opponent might block my attacks.

The ressource-system on the other hand I'm happy to see changed a little, because especially multi-color decks in MtG too often got mana screwed. Using the treshold and colorless mana as two different indicators for playing something will definitively let mana-srew occur less often. I wouldn't want to see ressources gone totally though, so again - for myself Cryptozoic followed the best of a variety of paths here :)

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 02:14 AM
There are defenders in WOW (Protectors actually) but it's a keyword.

The fact that you attack one by one and wherever you want and that you can attack again if you untap is making WOW very different from MtG.

In MtG a 1/1 with a great power is a good card, in WoW it would never survive a turn :)

~

Dralon
05-10-2013, 02:59 AM
I am also a vet of a number of card games, and loved the Decipher games, from the SWCCG and including being a Rider volunteer for the TCG and testing and playing the online version, which I loved and missed...but which also set the stage for all the digital verions that have come recently, including the versions integrated into EQ2 and Star Wars Galaxies even. Great to see Kyle you are involved here, as I recall your name from days past :)

I do love the resource mechanic in the WOWTCG, and hope at least that with this being a digital TCG that a mechanic can be put in place to alleviate some of the mana flood, mana screw problems that can occur. Perhaps some mechanics creating an ability to play a card as a resource that would give mana, but not charge or threshold, if you haven't drawn into a certain amount of mana by a certain time, or allowing a "card exchange" with your deck if you have more than a certain percentage of resource cards in your hand. Perhaps some ideas are already in the game or being looked at in testing

Regardless I look forward to playing the game and aiding in the testing. Kickstarter Backer here! :)

Dralon
05-10-2013, 03:02 AM
I miss Magi-Nation, it was such a well made game, such a shame the people it was sold to decided not to continue it.

Oh wow, and I thought I was the only one who remembered that game. It's funny, because I never played it, as no one else did, got only a few cards, but was always intrigued by it. Quick thread hijack, back to regular programming :)

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 04:25 AM
I think people oversimplify the differences in MTG and WoWTCG, blocking and defending are very natural feeling, and it is simple to learn, difficult to master, much like everything in MTG.
WoWTCG reminded me more of the Marvel cards etc, and had some confusing extra's (what the hell does a newbie know about quests, etc.)

Magic felt more natural, and that is why everyone I knew played Magic instead.

I can't sit here and say one is better, but Magic is pretty clear-cut with the base rules, and the advanced rules you pick up as you go along.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 05:16 AM
Wait? Magic has advanced rules now? I thought all that changed with the dumbening back in 2009.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 05:50 AM
To be fair, I last played competitively in 2008, and my only other experience has been duels of the planeswalkers 2013, which was an abomination.

But when I did play, it was true.

Ferrier13
05-10-2013, 08:41 AM
I haven't played the WoW-TCG, but if I got it right from reading here, that game has no active blocking during battle, meaning no defenders. If so - I'm even more happy that Cryptozoic choose to take the basics from Magic for HEX, because not only do I want to be an active part in battle, even while defending, but I would feel that I missed out on so much depth as an attacker, if I didn't have to think about how my opponent might block my attacks.

So in wowtcg, attacks are made as a sorcery style action. You can only declare an attack during your main phase on an open chain. You declare who is attacking and whom that character is attacking. The defending player has the ability to have characters with a keyword "protector" that allows them to exhaust and jump in the way. This is SO MUCH More intuitive than magic's system of ... I declare everyone who is charging at you heading straight towords your general's face and then you get to decide which guys jump in the way every time i attack... I'm sorry but battle does not happen this way... battle in the real world each person individually choses who they are going to attack and when.. and then someone might jump in the way if they are able to or are not engaged with something else.. This is hands down one of the main reasons i quit playing magic because it made no damn sense.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 08:46 AM
You and I are opposing planeswalkers, and we are out for each others blood. To achieve this, we summon monsters and beasts and valiant knights. Our aim is to kill each other, not the summoned minions we can pull out of the aether all day long. When I send my minions to attack, I want them to ignore all other obstacles and go straight for your throat.

You, on the other hand, enjoy your throat quite a lot. It helps you to eat and breath and not die. So you command your creatures to jump in front of mine, to hinder them, to slow them down while you prepare nasty spell #76 in your arsenal of nasty spells! Or maybe you dont? Maybe you are wearing a magical gorget that will protect your throat enough, or you have already cast nasty spell #31, which will take care of my creatures without the aid of your creatures. That way, your creatures will survive to come at MY throat.

I dont see how that scenario doesnt make any sense at all.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:14 AM
I agre WWKnight, that sums up Magic (and Hex) perfectly.

Lots of the other TCG's have mechanics that seem far more weird, I don't see the combat side being a dealbreaker.

Also, WoWTCG explanations are not helping right now, that sounds like greek to me.

Ferrier13
05-10-2013, 09:49 AM
It may not be for others.. but it is a deal breaker for me... At this point until I'm convinced otherwise... I can't conceive of going to a game where the combat system is so unrealistic..

Why can't I tell my small guy to attack and slaughter the weakling guy over there.. before I send my massive horde at your throat... It makes no sense that I have to send everything at once and then let you decide that your little weakling guy can jump in front of my giant mammoth beast of death...

DarkSeverance
05-10-2013, 09:53 AM
When I send my minions to attack, I want them to ignore all other obstacles and go straight for your throat.

So you command your creatures to jump in front of mine, to hinder them, to slow them down while you prepare nasty spell #76 in your arsenal of nasty spells! Or maybe you dont?They use different strategies and have different mechanics which makes a Hero be able to do things like flank someone. IE: I send 1-2 guys at you, trying to get you to protect (block) thereby leaving you open to Ferocity (Haste) guys which I can play afterwards. Or I decide to cast a few spells, armor/weapon up my hero and swing at you now that you are open.

It isn't that it doesn't really make much sense, it is that from a more realistic perspective it isn't very real. There isn't a real world type of strategy to it. It does have its own strategy but that is how Magic plays differently than WoW.

None of the mechanics are really that different or hard to pick up for either game. They however do not play the same.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:57 AM
Thats why they have targeted spells and abilities for spot removing things. You basically play the general, ordering your troops to attack, but no general ever could control who would fight who on the battlefield - at best he could tell who to defend, and where.

It makes perfect sense to me, so I don't see what the issue is for you, can't you suspend your disbelief and accept that it is a large brawl, with creatures and critters enslaved to help you at all costs?

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:59 AM
Flavour doesnt work for some people. I for one dont understand why in WoW you can send your troops directly at me, but none of my allies stop to think "Perhaps I should block that charging warrior? Na, he's all the way over there..."

Im happy for this style, and I am sorry others will miss out because of it.

Devaux
05-10-2013, 10:09 AM
It may not be for others.. but it is a deal breaker for me... At this point until I'm convinced otherwise... I can't conceive of going to a game where the combat system is so unrealistic..

Why can't I tell my small guy to attack and slaughter the weakling guy over there.. before I send my massive horde at your throat... It makes no sense that I have to send everything at once and then let you decide that your little weakling guy can jump in front of my giant mammoth beast of death...

Oh man I love it when people chump block my guys. Throw away more cards please.

DarkSeverance
05-10-2013, 10:38 AM
no general ever could control who would fight who on the battlefield - at best he could tell who to defend, and where.Tell that to the military. ^_^ Just saying...


It makes perfect sense to me, so I don't see what the issue is for you, can't you suspend your disbelief and accept that it is a large brawl, with creatures and critters enslaved to help you at all costs?Again it isn't really about suspending belief. They are just different ideas and concepts. Keep in mind I'm actually fine either way, but I do understand both point of views.


I for one dont understand why in WoW you can send your troops directly at me, but none of my allies stop to think "Perhaps I should block that charging warrior?The battlefield mechanics are a bit different than in Magic. It isn't two heroes fighting in a small battlefield. WoW takes it from the perspective of a Battleground or Raid play where you have sets of troops that can occupy front lines, while another set can flank or move in from a different direction. It isn't that they are sending troops directly at you, they just aren't on your field of vision. Do you choose to block and defend with what you see? Or do you hold out thinking he has more in his hand that he can attack afterwards with.

I don't have an issue with either concept, they are however different battlefield perspectives. I do have an issue with an all in or all out belief. There is only one window to attack with troops and that is it. That is why I do in a way have a fondness for the WoW's play style though. I can feign, I can bluff and you can call it but then I can also play a bunch more troops to now attack because you are open. You don't have that option in Magic. You can attack. Then you can play some things but you can't attack anymore during your turn, you get 1 attack.

kirkwb
05-10-2013, 10:45 AM
Why did Hex go completely away from the mechanics of wowtcg?

Because you play with yourself at night.

I kid, I kid... Give it a chance Zo, it may grow on you after you get a chance to play it. The familiarity will bring in a huge audience giving it longeivity and the Digital Mechanics will make up for what you see as downfalls.

houjix
05-10-2013, 10:52 AM
I'm kind of in the same camp as Ferrier in wishing it had been closer to WoW than Magic. Mana flood/screw, even for how little it happens in the grand scheme of things, is the single biggest NPE of Magic. The combat thing I can get over even though I prefer advantage to the attacker as opposed to the defender and the 1 v 1 style, I really wish damage was going to be persistent. Even and 0/7 wall should get worn down with multiple attacks.

Still going to give the game a shot because WoW is almost dead around here and I refuse to play Magic physically more than once every year or so. The PVE stuff alone makes it worth trying out(Kind of like the Shandalar Magic PC game from years ago), and the digital world tweaks will keep it interesting.

houjix
05-10-2013, 10:56 AM
Oh yea? Glad to see you still involved in the hobby! I worked at Decipher for 8 years :-)

I still remember Kyle coming to town and trying to convert my Luke Skywalker. Luckily my moisture farmer deck had some shenanigans to save the day.

Joolz
05-10-2013, 11:15 AM
While I absolutely love the mechanics of the WoW TCG and played it for years I can see why they chose to make it more MTG-like. First off that rule-set is more widely known, I imagine quite a few WoW TCG players have played MTG but likely not vice-versa. Second, to me at least, MTG rules may translate to a digital platform more easily. There's something like 3 priority windows for each attack in the WoW TCG, I could see a lot of clicking for a digital WoW TCG.
For some specific differences I can see liking the resource system of Hex. It's very simple and although it isn't as "mana screw" safe as the WoW TCG it seems safer than MTG since you don't actually "spend" threshold. The one thing I really wish they had brought over from WoW that I think would have made sense is equipment. That was a great innovation and seemed like a natural fit given that Hex uses Champions.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 11:21 AM
It uses equipment, but not in the same way. I don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing, but it is very dynamic sounding. It seems like a great addition.

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 01:35 PM
While I absolutely love the mechanics of the WoW TCG and played it for years I can see why they chose to make it more MTG-like. First off that rule-set is more widely known, I imagine quite a few WoW TCG players have played MTG but likely not vice-versa. Second, to me at least, MTG rules may translate to a digital platform more easily. There's something like 3 priority windows for each attack in the WoW TCG, I could see a lot of clicking for a digital WoW TCG.
For some specific differences I can see liking the resource system of Hex. It's very simple and although it isn't as "mana screw" safe as the WoW TCG it seems safer than MTG since you don't actually "spend" threshold. The one thing I really wish they had brought over from WoW that I think would have made sense is equipment. That was a great innovation and seemed like a natural fit given that Hex uses Champions.

The issue here is that decks are color based and not class based, making equipment hard to balance.

WoW always had issues with balance because of that and its resource system and its combat system.

~