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WWKnight
05-10-2013, 08:34 AM
So I open my packs, and I draft a lot and I do my thing, and suddenly I have way too many Volcannons. Aside from blast bunny people to pieces all day long, is there anything I can do with the ones I have in excess of 4?

Dionyz
05-10-2013, 08:36 AM
Sell them on the AH, trade them to other players?

I don't know that they will have a "disenchant" function, ala Hearthstone.

Kami
05-10-2013, 08:40 AM
They said there would be a crafting system. Given that each card has it's own unique ID/stats/etc. I'd suspect you can 'craft' cards by using up other cards, etc.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 08:42 AM
They also mentioned that crafting was a benefit for PvE only, so I dont think its going to be a card forge :( I hope im wrong and you are right though! I love that function in other games.

OP_Kyle
05-10-2013, 08:59 AM
They also mentioned that crafting was a benefit for PvE only, so I dont think its going to be a card forge :( I hope im wrong and you are right though! I love that function in other games.

First of all, you can never have too many Volcannons. How else are you going to arm your secret volcano island and take over the world?

Secondly, you will be able to grind cards into component parts for the crafting system. Then use them to build new and awesome things!

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:02 AM
Are said new and awesome things PvE only?

In either case, it makes me happy to know that there will be some use for excess cards :)

Devaux
05-10-2013, 09:02 AM
First of all, you can never have too many Volcannons. How else are you going to arm your secret volcano island and take over the world?

Secondly, you will be able to grind cards into component parts for the crafting system. Then use them to build new and awesome things!

Are these new an awesome things PvE content or with enough Volcannons will I be able to craft other, possibly more rare, PvP cards?

OP_Kyle
05-10-2013, 09:05 AM
Are these new an awesome things PvE content or with enough Volcannons will I be able to craft other, possibly more rare, PvP cards?

There are PvE cards and gear (equipment) for sure. The decision on PvP cards is still being investigated. There are a lot of variables to consider and we need to see how the game economy and flow is working as a whole.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:06 AM
Well, im satisfied with that. +1 vote to allow for pvp options though.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:08 AM
I second that WWKnight. I feel like I will be playing both modes, but if I spend a few days messing around in one, I would love to be able to do something to get some progress in the other mode.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-10-2013, 09:17 AM
I'm against the idea of grinding in PvE to be competitive in PvP.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:20 AM
What about the idea of grinding in PvP to be competitive in PvP?

All these extra cards will be likely coming from booster drafts. Id like to know that I can turn them into something PvP related.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-10-2013, 09:23 AM
What about the idea of grinding in PvP to be competitive in PvP?

All these extra cards will be likely coming from booster drafts. Id like to know that I can turn them into something PvP related.

I'm on the fence on that one. I don't want a bunch of cards I can't use but then I don't want to have to buy a ton of boosters just to find the components for a single card.

If excess unwanted cards that are so low value that they can't be traded could be combined to somehow give you a chance at a better card I would be all for that. But, I wouldn't want it to be specific card combos to get a specific card... at least for PvP.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:24 AM
Can I ask why? If PvE players have to grind say, 20 cards to trade in for a single PvP card, and getting those cards might take 2-3 hours (being generous here, it could take days) while a PvP player can simply buy packs, and both sides can use the AH anyway, where is the issue?

It should never be 1 for 1 though. PvE should cost more cards to be PvP viable.

Daer
05-10-2013, 09:31 AM
Why not just have PVP card scraps be able to craft PVP cards and PVE card scraps be able to craft PVE cards.

Then PVPers don't feel the need to grind PVE and PVE players will have lots of PVE cards to craft from anyway.

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 09:31 AM
It's exactly the same as in WoW the MMO.

PVP and PVE require different specs/gear.

Same mechanics, different way to play and/or gear up.

~

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 09:32 AM
PVE brings fun and achievements

PVP brings fun and competitiveness

~

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:33 AM
Because PvP cards arent PvP only.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:40 AM
WWKnight has the issue dead to rights. It is a matter of fairness across the board - a PvP player could retire with play sets of epic cards, and play PvE with no issues, but PvE players have to turn around and buy a ton of boosters to get started in PvP, despite the fact they may have at some point spent the same amount of money or more, or have played ten times more than the PvP player.

We are just discussing ideas to keep it accessable both ways, and not end up like the WoW ****fest. Thier PvP and PvE content always gets screwed up because they try to balance both when one side always has an advantage - we don't want the same to happen here, do we?

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 09:45 AM
a PvP player would have to spend RL money to get cards in the first place while a PvE player can play for free.

And a PvP player who moves to PvE will have to spend as much time as the PvE player did to finish the campaign/farm dungeons/raids.

I don't see why PvE to PvP should be any easier/cheaper than PvP to PvE

As for the balance issues, it's easy to bump bosses power.
Its PvP that needs balance as it's where the competitiveness is

~

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:47 AM
Because as a PvE player who intends to spend money, I dont want to have to spend EXTRA money if I get lumped with bad luck and not open the cards I want. I want to be able to turn my excess cards into something else, regardless of if I want that something else to be PvP or PvE.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 09:50 AM
But take this scenario - A player isn't interested in PvP to start with, but still pays $100 to get boosters, which he then proceeds to trade, sell, use, etc, for PvE. Now he does this until the set he bought is cycled out.

The other player starts with only a starter deck, enters one or two drafts, then trades for or wins the rest of his cards.

The PvE player has paid more, but cannot play in PvP, and the PvP player could spend technically nothing, get a ton of PvP stuff, and then play PvE, with no issues.

It is about fairness, and it should go both ways, to an extent. A PvE player should be able to get into PvP, at least get a foothold, and have a chance to test it, without investing a large sum of money. If they get hooked, then they will spend money, if they want to perform better.

There should be a level of balance, that is all I am saying.

Daer
05-10-2013, 09:52 AM
Since boosters are only PVP cards why is the PVE player spending $100 on them?

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 09:56 AM
Because PvP cards can be used in PvE.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 09:56 AM
Ok, i think people miss this fairly big thing about PvE to PvP, and this is important: FARMERS. If it is possible to do it AT ALL, then it will be farmed 7 ways from sunday, and the card value will drop quick enough to give you wiplash.

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 09:58 AM
The other player starts with only a starter deck, enters one or two drafts, then trades for or wins the rest of his cards.


You're being delusional

~

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 10:01 AM
Yes but if you are trading in 10 cards for 1, the rate of said devalue is going to be microscopic, even negligible.

Farmers would be better off keeping those 10 cards and taking them to the AH than trading them in for an equal one.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 10:02 AM
How am I being delusional? I have played MTG, I barely spent a cent, and played tournaments with competitive decks, and didn't do all that poorly. It is entirely possible to do.

And what you are forgetting Mehlo, is will the farmer find it worthwhile to farm hours for a single card, when other players could buy packs of 15 of those same set, with no work at all?

I know farmers are crazy, but if you do not offer premuim PvP cards, and only entrant level ones, it wont devalue anything at all.
And should those cards be useable in some way to get better cards, that would be progression, which is what MMO's are all about, right?

EDIT: WWKnight, great minds think alike! Thinking budies!

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 10:05 AM
So the cards that you can get will only be common and uncommons? Because if there are rares and legendaries, even basic ones, the moment someone opens one in a pack it's gonna suck. You are already going to have the auction house where you can buy pvp cards with pve currency, what more then that do you need for entry?

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 10:09 AM
Well, Mehlo, I worry about the value of those cards - I have seen WoW and it has a broken economy. New sets would probably be through the roof in price, meaning only gold farmers or people paying real money would be able to afford those cards, and each single card will probably have rather high prices for a long time. Paying for a whole deck in this way would probably be very VERY difficult.

This would give less rich players the option to jump ship to the other style of play with little issue, but without dominating or getting it for free.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 10:09 AM
Its not about entry, Its about gettign what you want for the excess cards you've aquired. If I have done 100 drafts (and believe me, I WILL do 100 drafts), I want to have the option to turn my excess cards into more PVP cards or more PVE cards, to fit whatever my decks are missing. I dont want to be told I cant make a PvE card without first grinding through content with an unfun PvE deck.

Likewise, if I have gone and grinded out a bunch of Lady Cassandras Undergarments from the Panty Raid quest, I want to have the option to turn them into something useful in PvP. Even if its the first step in a chain of ingredients, I dont understand why they have to be locked up and kept seperate.

As a paying customer, why am I being restricted to stop those who arent paying?

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 10:14 AM
Again, just like you can get rid of pvp cards in the AH for pve, you can do the other way around with PvE content. Honestly, this is going to be more like 2 games kind of combined, with PvP going along more traditional and tested routes for Tcgs with format and economy, and pve being more standard mmo. The thing is, keeping them separated is important if you want to keep the pvp and competitive scene happy, and they are the ones that will put in the most money. As is, you can always grind for pvp cards, it may take a while, but it becomes like any game with a cash shop, and i'm fine with that.

Devaux
05-10-2013, 10:22 AM
Its not about entry, Its about gettign what you want for the excess cards you've aquired. If I have done 100 drafts (and believe me, I WILL do 100 drafts), I want to have the option to turn my excess cards into more PVP cards or more PVE cards, to fit whatever my decks are missing. I dont want to be told I cant make a PvE card without first grinding through content with an unfun PvE deck.

Likewise, if I have gone and grinded out a bunch of Lady Cassandras Undergarments from the Panty Raid quest, I want to have the option to turn them into something useful in PvP. Even if its the first step in a chain of ingredients, I dont understand why they have to be locked up and kept seperate.

As a paying customer, why am I being restricted to stop those who arent paying?

I think this is going to be something that is either adressed pre-release or very shortly thereafter. I LOVE drafting. I'm going to end up with upwards of 20 extra copies of some of the commons. And I won't be the only one. Now, my options are to let them rot, to dump them in the AH in an attempt to get -anything- for them and contribute to the devaluing of said cards, or turn them into PvE loot. None of those feel awesome to me but I'd probably rather turn them into other loot. It would be cool if I could turn my PvP loot into other PvP loot.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-10-2013, 10:47 AM
Here's what I'm thinking. Only cards from the booster could be used to create a card that would also be available from randomly opening a booster, you should not be able to create cards usable in PvP that are only available through this method (I would accept alternate art cards, but not new cards entirely). PvE cards or items that are found from doing PvE things can only create cards or items used for PvE.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 10:51 AM
Here's what I'm thinking. Only cards from the booster could be used to create a card that would also be available from randomly opening a booster, you should not be able to create cards usable in PvP that are only available through this method (I would accept alternate art cards, but not new cards entirely). PvE cards or items that are found from doing PvE things can only create cards or items used for PvE.

I like this idea, seems like it is a decent combo, but i'm curious to how a "card sink" like that would effect the overall pvp economy.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 10:55 AM
I see anything wrong in letting people grind it out in either way. the way you are putting it, people are going to be able to grind for gold, and buy them. The only difference here is skipping the in-between. (And before you go mentioning the fact they would spend gold, they are destroying potential money makers. Moot point.)


And it would depend on the structure - If you had to sacrifice 5-10 common PvE cards to get a RANDOM PvP card, it wont be abusable, as you wont have a clue what you will be getting.

If they do the same with uncommons, and rares, for random cards, there is a chance you might luck into something nice, or get trading fodder - but you take that risk. While with the AH you might get what you want, but it could cost you, or you could wait for prices to drop - also a gamble.

If done right, it would be a non-issue, so I don't see the problem here.

Then again, I don't really mind that much if it remains exclusive, but I doubt I will be buying into PvP without taking careful considerations first.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-10-2013, 10:57 AM
I think it would increase the value a little bit for common cards if they could be transformed into say a high chance of an uncommon card, a small chance at a rare, and a miniscule chance at a legendary.

Perhaps 10 cards could be sacrificed for a chance at a card of equal or greater value. With all 10 cards being of the same quality: common, uncommon, rare, or legendary.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 11:03 AM
That was what I inteded to say, but I left it out somehow. Although, would it be bad for commons to actually have a value for once? Most end up being fodder, and gather dust.

Devaux
05-10-2013, 11:10 AM
That was what I inteded to say, but I left it out somehow. Although, would it be bad for commons to actually have a value for once? Most end up being fodder, and gather dust.

There would be rare cases where the cost of some commons dips so low that astute AH lurkers buy them in bulk and blend them to turn some sort of profit but giving commons a price floor doesn't sound like a bad thing. Especially since it seems that drafting will be a big deal. I've drafted the newest Magic set like 3-4 times and I'm already lousy with commons I'm probably never going to use.

EDIT: Its like how corporations buy back their own stock to increase the value. You could imagine blending cards as CZE buying cards back to keep them from becoming completely worthless. It'll keep the economy moving.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-10-2013, 11:14 AM
I see anything wrong in letting people grind it out in either way. the way you are putting it, people are going to be able to grind for gold, and buy them. The only difference here is skipping the in-between. (And before you go mentioning the fact they would spend gold, they are destroying potential money makers. Moot point.)


And it would depend on the structure - If you had to sacrifice 5-10 common PvE cards to get a RANDOM PvP card, it wont be abusable, as you wont have a clue what you will be getting.

If they do the same with uncommons, and rares, for random cards, there is a chance you might luck into something nice, or get trading fodder - but you take that risk. While with the AH you might get what you want, but it could cost you, or you could wait for prices to drop - also a gamble.

If done right, it would be a non-issue, so I don't see the problem here.

Then again, I don't really mind that much if it remains exclusive, but I doubt I will be buying into PvP without taking careful considerations first.

I see where you're coming from, and it would work. What I would like to see from cards earned through PvE is that they are more specific in what you can combine them into, creating an even more powerful PvE card, something you wouldn't want to do to PvP because of balance issues.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 11:17 AM
Well, I am still for cross style grinding and creating, but on the PvE side, it should be just as random or not random as PvP.

But PvE will probably be easier to get FREE commons, rather than bought ones, I would imagine that PvE would require a larger sacrifice.

PvP 5-10 cards, PvE 10-20 cards seems fair. Or fair with what we are assuming.

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 01:27 PM
Everyone who ever played a TCG a bit seriously has 10,000 commons rotting in some boxes.
The only way to get rid of these is to give it to newbies : just do that in HEX and help the community grow.

~

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 01:29 PM
I agree with fireblast on this one, you're going to accumulate, especially if you play limited. This accumulation will make it also viable to get people from PvE to try PvP from those cards, with pauper style tournaments.

Storm_Fireblade
05-10-2013, 02:46 PM
I would love to see some kind of crafting system, where I could use like 10 PvP Commons and generate a random PvP Card, that has a certain chance to become another common, uncommon, rare or legendary. This would not only finally make commons more valuable, but it would take advantage of the marriage between TCG/MMO and the digital nature of the game.

And after all - this is NOT solely a simple digital TCG.

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 02:52 PM
I would love to see some kind of crafting system, where I could use like 10 PvP Commons and generate a random PvP Card, that has a certain chance to become another common, uncommon, rare or legendary. This would not only finally make commons more valuable, but it would take advantage of the marriage between TCG/MMO and the digital nature of the game.

And after all - this is NOT solely a simple digital TCG.

To me this is a F2P PvE Game and a P2W PvP Game

~

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 02:54 PM
Agreed, and to me that is a good thing

Blare731
05-10-2013, 04:21 PM
To me this is a F2P PvE Game and a P2W PvP Game

That's the whole point so that they can attract more player who want to try it out and see what it's like. They want new players to get hooked and want to play in PvP.

PvP is going to cost money even if u save all your boosters (if you have any from kickstaters) to contribute to the tourneys, there will still be a small fee to cover prizes (Stated by a Dev, Reference (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23021&p=205880&viewfull=1#post205880)). Because to them it doesn't matter if you bring the boosters and play or pay full price to get them because they are getting the money. That is the business model of the game. It's free to play until you want to get serious about PvP, then just like any TCG tourneys cost money. The more people they can attract and get to love the game with PvE the more potential people are going to participate in PvP and some people who really want to crush PvE might buy cards too so it's a win-win for them.

I love this business model, and I think it let's me get the most out of the game. I know I'm going to be competing a lot so I got Pro Tier, at least, so that every week I will be able to compete for free. I did that so theoretically I don't have to keep pumping money into the game if I don't want and PvE to my hearts desire.


With all that being said and with the good point by Xenavire, "people are going to be able to grind for gold, and buy them," honestly it won't matter if PvE cards can be salvaged for PvP because they can just buy them that way. And actually, I would argue that since the PvE cards would only make PvE cards you have a better chance of getting good PvE cards and therefore higher value of salvaging so it will be easier to sell/trade them for PvP cards. And it wouldn't make sense to limit PvP cards to only making PvP cards because they can be used in both.

Shoubushi
05-10-2013, 04:31 PM
To me this is a F2P PvE Game and a P2W PvP Game

P2W in Constructed versions of PvP. There are different variations to play obviously, not all will require a large bank account. Giving any PvP cards away in PvE would make buying boosters more P2W than anything else. And having PvE requirements to do PvP restricts a whole group of players who have no intentions of playing the PvE side of the game.

The way CZE has it setup now is ideal for everyone, except for those who wish to play this game completely free.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 05:07 PM
The way CZE has it setup now is ideal for everyone, except for those who wish to play this game completely free.

Wait, how so?

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 05:47 PM
Ive pledged $1000. I am not happy with how its set up. $1000 is not completely free.

Devaux
05-10-2013, 05:52 PM
To be fair. We don't really know how it's set up yet. We only have the morsels of information Kyle has granted us.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 07:09 PM
Ive pledged $1000. I am not happy with how its set up. $1000 is not completely free.

I've pledged 250 and probably moving to 500. Now I'm not trying to have a contest because clearly you win, but my point is I'm willing to spend an absurd (or at least to me) amount of money on a game all at once. I am because I think it is a well designed game.

So first I say, you clearly are choosing to pay to enhance your experience which is great and should be encouraged. But what is wrong with letting people start with almost nothing and use their time to build up. As the great saying goes, Time is Money, so what difference is it really? And would it matter to you if someone worked hard to get what your $1000 got instantly. Not to mention they will NEVER be able to get the exclusive rewards you have.

I do not mean to come of angry or anything but I do think that people have a right to experience the game FULLY without paying.

hacky
05-10-2013, 07:34 PM
I've pledged 250 and probably moving to 500. Now I'm not trying to have a contest because clearly you win, but my point is I'm willing to spend an absorb (or at least to me) amount of money on a game all at once. I am because I think it is a well designed game.

So first I say, you clearly are choosing to pay to enhance your experience which is great and should be encouraged. But what is wrong with letting people start with almost nothing and use their time to build up. As the great saying goes, Time is Money, so what difference is it really? And would it matter to you if someone worked hard to get what your $1000 got instantly. Not to mention they will NEVER be able to get the exclusive rewards you have.

I do not mean to come of angry or anything but I do think that people have a right to experience the game FULLY without paying.

From the information we've gotten, I think that a new player will be able to try the game reasonably well without paying.

First, I assume that the Starter Deck will fully be PvP-playable. So a player wanting to try their hand versus a player can do so right off the bat. (and with proper matchmaking, will be matched with someone close to Starter Deck level)

Second, I assume that a new player will be able to acquire new PvE cards and gold (ingame currency) with their Starter Deck. This allows the new player to start to build ingame assets such as PvE cards, equipment, etc.

Third, from everything I've gathered so far, there is a trading route that allows a player to acquire PvP cards with entirely PvE assets: namely, gold. Sell rare and extra PvE cards and equipment for gold. Buy PvP card singles with said gold.

This is entirely contingent on how the economy forms around selling singles for gold and platinum (RL currency), but I believe that a large market market for Common and Uncommon PvP cards will form for reasonable amounts of gold. We know the current rarity distribution of packs, and paying HexTCG players will definitely have excess C/UC to dump into the economy.

So from this, I assume that a F2P player can begin to play PvP without paying for boosters, try it out, and decide for themselves if they'd like to continue. By extension, with effort, that player could buy Rare/Legendary PvP cards with gold, but the time and effort cost of doing so would probably far outstrip the monetary cost.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 08:59 PM
I've pledged 250 and probably moving to 500. Now I'm not trying to have a contest because clearly you win, but my point is I'm willing to spend an absurd (or at least to me) amount of money on a game all at once. I am because I think it is a well designed game.

So first I say, you clearly are choosing to pay to enhance your experience which is great and should be encouraged. But what is wrong with letting people start with almost nothing and use their time to build up. As the great saying goes, Time is Money, so what difference is it really? And would it matter to you if someone worked hard to get what your $1000 got instantly. Not to mention they will NEVER be able to get the exclusive rewards you have.

I do not mean to come of angry or anything but I do think that people have a right to experience the game FULLY without paying.

I agree 100% If you read my previous posts, Im championing the same thing you want. I was saying to the person who said that everyone except the freeloaders is happy with the system, I am not, and I am not a freeloader.

ShaolinRaven
05-10-2013, 09:00 PM
I can think of a few options.

1) I would like a collector sheet of some kind where I can lock out a card of any rarity so it takes it out of my deck building options and adds it to a collector's page where you can earn achievements or trophies or something for completing different internal sets, such as one for getting all the orcs or all the artifacts etc, and then another for completing the entire set. This would also take at least one card of your extras out of your playing pool, more if they did different sheets for foil and alternate art sets as well.

2) They could have a "card shred" option where you get a base level of in game currency depending on the rarity of the card. So when you get extras that aren't really selling on the AH and you don't have any guild members or friends that want it, then you can shred the card for a base amount.

3) And if they do a mechanic where you break a card down for materials, they could limit it to making an equivalent rarity card. So if you break down commons you can only make other cards that are common. Now that means you might have a lot of common crafting materials saved up, but you could then use it to make commons of a new expansion set if you bank your materials.

Just a few different ideas on how they could handle trading/removing cards that you have gained a lot of, but can't get rid of in the community.

Shoubushi
05-10-2013, 09:10 PM
I like the idea of "shredding" or "breaking down" cards for currency or crafting.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 09:40 PM
I like the idea of "shredding" or "breaking down" cards for currency or crafting.

Do you mean the option for currency instead or crafting mats?

Shoubushi
05-10-2013, 09:42 PM
Either one is better than having an inventory of extra cards laying around that we can't use.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 09:45 PM
Either one is better than having an inventory of extra cards laying around that we can't use.

We already know we will be able to break down cards for crafting. The discussion that has taken place recently was on whether PvP and PvE cards should go to the same resource to make both or not. And if not how they should work.