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View Full Version : Am i only one who is lil worried about "instant" cards in game like this?



Auriok
05-10-2013, 10:13 AM
I have tested almost all online tcg's that apple store, android market and google can offer.few of them doenst even have any instant cards. rest of them have problems with instant cards because window to use them is small or hard to use.
so. how hex tries to make it better?


sorry about my english i am not realy good at it.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 10:17 AM
Window, as in timing? You have to constantly "pass priority", so there is no timing window you can accidently miss out on.

If you are talking about the size of screens on phones, there is only plans to release on PC and Mac atm.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 10:18 AM
Yea, seems similar in aspect to the Mtgo client in passing priority

Boojum
05-10-2013, 10:55 AM
Yeah, if you watch the video of the demo game, you can see the player constantly clicking the "pass priority" button during the opponent's turn.

Thanisse
05-10-2013, 03:42 PM
Yeah, if you watch the video of the demo game, you can see the player constantly clicking the "pass priority" button during the opponent's turn.

so this means there is no time limit to someone's "turn to act" ?

Fireblast
05-10-2013, 03:48 PM
In the video, you see that each player has 30 minutes to act for the game, and each time they have priority time goes down.

~

kirkwb
05-10-2013, 04:16 PM
So it's more like a chess clock.

omghex
05-10-2013, 04:16 PM
The chess clock plus priority system is necessary for instant cards and that's what they have here. Plus you really need instant cards for a TCG to be deep. Instants and instant speed abilities allow for interacting with your opponent's turn and responding to their actions. If there is no interaction there, combo decks would rule the game, or not be a development option. Basically any TCG that can't account for instant speed cards is just poorly designed.

MugenMusou
05-10-2013, 05:19 PM
Personally, it's a huge plus. In mobile platform, there is tendency to keep instant mechanic out to make the game simple, and speedy; however, there are certainly drawback of less depth in the game overall.

However, at the same time MTGO gets annoying with clicking "NO" to counter many more than actually responding to opponent's move. I personally think there is a good hybrid answer inbetween but not sure if HEX is using it. But I'd rather see a game with instant than without it.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 06:35 PM
The chess clock plus priority system is necessary for instant cards and that's what they have here. Plus you really need instant cards for a TCG to be deep. Instants and instant speed abilities allow for interacting with your opponent's turn and responding to their actions. If there is no interaction there, combo decks would rule the game, or not be a development option. Basically any TCG that can't account for instant speed cards is just poorly designed.

Infinity Wars has no Instant cards, and is designed in such a way that its gameplay experience requires more skill and strategy than any other i've played.

omghex
05-10-2013, 10:28 PM
I've never heard of Infinity Wars so I can't speak to that experience but I've never played a TCG where you don't have the capacity to interact with your opponent and enjoyed it.

MugenMusou
05-10-2013, 10:34 PM
I've never heard of Infinity Wars so I can't speak to that experience but I've never played a TCG where you don't have the capacity to interact with your opponent and enjoyed it.

It uses a system called Simultaneous play i.e. two players take plan phase and all actions are revealed at same time i.e. you have to speculate what opponent would do and act based on the speculation. Very innovative and I like it. Though I still miss the element of real counter battle i.e. I do something and opponent counter, and I counter back which can only be done with instant like mechanics.

Boojum
05-10-2013, 10:56 PM
I think it can work (after all, plenty of deep strategy games use a straightforward turn-based system without being able to act on the opponent's turn), but instants do add a lot of depth and design space, so if you remove them you'd better have some other mechanics in place that can fulfill a similar role.

For example, you could have some sort of secret plot card type that you play face-down on your turn, and automatically triggers if the conditions arise (or you could bluff by playing some other card type). Or you could have a Response phase before Untap that gives you a chance to counteract some of the actions on the opponent's last turn.

Eschewing instants is definitely a tradeoff, but if done right, it could improve the pace of play and make asynchronous play possible. I don't blame Cryptozoic for taking the safe path and keeping instants for this game, but they're not the only way.

I also never heard of Infinity Wars before. Sounds similar to something like Frozen Synapse, which I loved. Wouldn't mind checking it out, but it looks like there's no way to get into the beta at the moment.

MugenMusou
05-10-2013, 11:05 PM
Boojum,

I think your example is what's called "Trap card" like Yu Gi Oh and several other TCG uses. They are typically passive counter as it is triggered when a condition is met. Though itself provides interesting mechanics, active counter is also nice i.e. you decide exactly when to use.

The best I can come up with to provide active counter mechanics WITHOUT asking a player every single turn "whether to pass or not" is in fact to use Trap card but make it active type. By this, basically you only give a player a chance to "counter" if trap card is on the board. But unlike traditional trap card, you do get to decide when to use.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 11:10 PM
Boojum,

I think your example is what's called "Trap card" like Yu Gi Oh and several other TCG uses. They are typically passive counter as it is triggered when a condition is met. Though itself provides interesting mechanics, active counter is also nice i.e. you decide exactly when to use.

The best I can come up with to provide active counter mechanics WITHOUT asking a player every single turn "whether to pass or not" is in fact to use Trap card but make it active type. By this, basically you only give a player a chance to "counter" if trap card is on the board. But unlike traditional trap card, you do get to decide when to use.

Also I don't remember or know any trap cards that you could play from your hand. From what I played they all had to be already placed.

Thanisse
05-11-2013, 12:35 AM
is infinity wars out yet , or just closed beta x_X ?
I didn't get any mails saying it's out and didn't look in a while .

as for instants , I love instants , half my wow decks revolved around instants back when I was doing great xD .
I especially loved instant creature buffs / combat tricks .
really hard to do that well with self activating traps (ie ... prevent next time a creature would deal damage , but the next damaging creature has unpreventable attack xD )

S117
05-11-2013, 01:01 AM
If they take a page from MTGO they could have an auto-pass mechanic...
I.e. if you're out of actions then you pass priority automatically until your next turn.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 01:21 AM
is infinity wars out yet , or just closed beta x_X ?
I didn't get any mails saying it's out and didn't look in a while .

as for instants , I love instants , half my wow decks revolved around instants back when I was doing great xD .
I especially loved instant creature buffs / combat tricks .
really hard to do that well with self activating traps (ie ... prevent next time a creature would deal damage , but the next damaging creature has unpreventable attack xD )

End of the month mate. Did you sign up as Thanisse? I can try and make sure you are in the first wave of testers when it goes public. :D

MugenMusou
05-11-2013, 08:34 AM
Also I don't remember or know any trap cards that you could play from your hand. From what I played they all had to be already placed.

Forgive me. I must have misread your original post. I though you were talking about placing card faced down then later triggers if condition is met i.e. trap card with passive counter.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110617070802/yugioh/images/c/cc/SolemnJudgmentSDLS-EN-C-1E.png

I haven't played enough Yu Gi Oh but I believe the presence of card like above on the field give you an option to use it or not. But when there is no trap on the field at all, you won't be asked.

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 08:38 AM
If you want depth in TCG you basically must have instant cards and ability to act in opponent turn.

If you dont have this TCG game will look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/Eps5bCY.gif

This is how Hearstone and this new HEroes game plays - both games have no real depth and for me they are not real TCG games.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 08:52 AM
Mirri, check out the game Infinity Wars. No Instants, but more strategy than you can shake a stick at! (Shaking sticks isnt a very good strategy though)

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 08:54 AM
Consider me interested... checking it right now!

Its kick project too?

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 09:03 AM
Na man, it finished kickstarter last year.

If you click on my youtube channel (in my sig) there are a lot of videos. Or a video that isnt mine, is called Duel Perspectives, WWKnight vs Tyonidas. It shows a game with me and my friend, both screens, so you can see how its played from both players point of view.

As far as gameplay, IW wins hands down out of any TCG I have ever played. But the cards themselves dont seem as exciting or splashy as Hex's do. And the PvE environment of Hex is very exciting. Im honestly torn 50/50 between the two games.

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 09:23 AM
I will check ur wideos in spare time :) now i faund their channel and i watch their promotional videos - looks good so far.

PS. you can play both games :)

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 09:30 AM
Oh, I certainly intend too! Im starting both with massive collections, so hopefully I can get a massive bang for my bucks (and recoup all my losses from my savings account by not spending anything else on hobbies for the next year or so!)

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 03:36 PM
@WWKnight

I watched all videos from Infinity Wars (including your gameplays) and i must say... MINDBLOWING. This whole simultaneus turns, predicting and bluffing stuff... just...WOW. So much potential here. :)

It can be even better than this game!
Artstyle is very nice too (some arts reminds me of Doomtrooper TCG game) and animations are great.

Now im sad that i miss Kick and IndieGoGo campaingns :/
I will definitely play this when it will be available.

Thx for showing me this game. Infinity Wars plus Hex and i think my poor old MTG soul will be in TCG heaven. :)

Is there a way to get into beta right now? I subscribe to mailing list (on 3 different emails lolz) but dont see anything more.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 04:29 PM
No mate, there in closed beta for the backers atm. We were meant to go into Open beta in april, but I believe they are behind schedule. I promise it happens this month though. I will pass your name (did you register under the same name) to the devs and get themt o slip you to teh front of the queue as a personal favour to me though!

Edit- Told you games can be interesting without counters/instants :P

Rieper
05-11-2013, 04:36 PM
I love my instant and was a big user of stack in magic(Damage stack and sacrifice, LOVED IT). SO not worried at all, since they add something to game i love.

ShaolinRaven
05-11-2013, 04:40 PM
I also love instant cards, most of the CCGs I've played have them and they add some unpredictability to your turn if your opponent messes with your plans or a combo flow, it also adds more recoverability if you're taking a beating during a turn and instant cards can help soften the blow or maybe save one of your troops.

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 05:13 PM
No mate, there in closed beta for the backers atm. We were meant to go into Open beta in april, but I believe they are behind schedule. I promise it happens this month though. I will pass your name (did you register under the same name) to the devs and get themt o slip you to teh front of the queue as a personal favour to me though!

Edit- Told you games can be interesting without counters/instants :P

Yea its very interesting :) It doesnt looks liek it have much cardbase atm but this whole 'unpredictability' is very interesting and its something very different from other games.

I just created both forums and Lightmare accounts with 'MirriCatWarrior' name on both. Thx for you kind words and help.

Also i see on their forums that you do good job with getting ppl interested in IW. Nice. Small indie games ftw! We must support them whatever way we can (word of mouth most of the times) :)

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 05:49 PM
I almost got employed by them during thier kickstarter, but it went to a more qualified person. I have no problem with that, and I do what I do out of passion for the game, not the promise of untold riches!

For teh record, im evangilising Hex to everyone interested as well. Its just pointless doing so on the Hex forums :P

Duker
05-12-2013, 07:28 AM
If they take a page from MTGO they could have an auto-pass mechanic...
I.e. if you're out of actions then you pass priority automatically until your next turn. Great as an option but since it gives out information (opponents will directly know whether you even had a choice to respond or not) it shouldn't be default.