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thx42
05-10-2013, 11:33 AM
So, one of the reasons I don't play Magic Online is because of their prize eligibility rules. Their rules state that residents of certain states may not participate in fee-based tournaments with prizes.

Is this going to be a problem with HEX?

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 12:00 PM
It is digital, and an MMO, I doubt it. In fact, they would lose a ton of support if they did that.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 12:02 PM
It's actually a tough one, it might still be an issue. Magic online doesnt do it by choice, but because of state laws.

grey0one
05-10-2013, 12:04 PM
So, one of the reasons I don't play Magic Online is because of their prize eligibility rules. Their rules state that residents of certain states may not participate in fee-based tournaments with prizes.

Is this going to be a problem with HEX?

Since that's a result of state laws baring fee based tournaments or requiring massive oversight, probably yes. That being said, it shouldn't bar you from non-tournament pve content. What pve content is a tournament, we haven't seen.

Edit: to be clearer, states have these laws because they're trying to regulate/ban tournaments that can be gambling in nature. Talk to you state senator (or equivalent) about changing these laws.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 12:10 PM
Hold on, they wouldn't even be talking about rewards if it wasn't possible, and it is an MMO, so that mean's it will be available globally - the rewards have to be available everywhere.

Lots of games have those sorts of things already, E-games etc, and they gift monetary rewards. I don't see why this would be ineligible.

houjix
05-10-2013, 12:17 PM
Hold on, they wouldn't even be talking about rewards if it wasn't possible, and it is an MMO, so that mean's it will be available globally - the rewards have to be available everywhere.

Lots of games have those sorts of things already, E-games etc, and they gift monetary rewards. I don't see why this would be ineligible.

That has nothing really to do with tournaments. Some state laws see the tourneys simple as you pay a certain dollar amount to enter for the possiblity of winning greater than that amount of money(or prizes of monetary equivalence) back. To them that is gambling.

Eldryth
05-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Always annoying to see developers getting blamed for stuff like this. If your state laws ban something, Cryptozoic really doesn't have much of a choice. It's either limit entries or shut down the tournaments entirely- the only thing you can change is to ruin it for everyone else. It's sad, but it's out of their hands. The only chance you have- however slim- is to try and protest the law to your local government so Cryptozoic can let you in.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 12:26 PM
Well, if it is in-game currency, it is not gambling with real money, so it is for the lawyers to decide. Considering you can earn platinum or gold via the AH, I think it falls within non-gambling, since nothing states you have to pay money to get in - it is booster packs or premuim currency, but not an actual dollar value.

Especially since you can pay for a soft subscription, and get awarded packs for free, you could use those free packs to enter - therefore not paying to enter for something that gives a higher monetary value.

At least that is how I see it.

houjix
05-10-2013, 12:29 PM
Well, if it is in-game currency, it is not gambling with real money, so it is for the lawyers to decide. Considering you can earn platinum or gold via the AH, I think it falls within non-gambling, since nothing states you have to pay money to get in - it is booster packs or premuim currency, but not an actual dollar value.

Especially since you can pay for a soft subscription, and get awarded packs for free, you could use those free packs to enter - therefore not paying to enter for something that gives a higher monetary value.

At least that is how I see it.

Even if you have packs for MGO, you still have to use tickets to enter tournaments. Tickets cost real money at some point to get. Hex is probably going to have a similar system, probably with platinum being the likely currency. And I believe platinum must be purchased with real money even if it is later used at the AH. So real money is still involved in the chain somewhere and that is gambling according to some states definitions.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 12:32 PM
Well it depends on how you get the packs - for example, the kickstarters are giving money as a donation, and get free packs in return - no money involved at all. The subscription is the same thing, and some of the teirs have a free draft per week.

As for non-draft, I don't think it will cost money at all, so that should also be a non-issue.

houjix
05-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Well it depends on how you get the packs - for example, the kickstarters are giving money as a donation, and get free packs in return - no money involved at all. The subscription is the same thing, and some of the teirs have a free draft per week.

As for non-draft, I don't think it will cost money at all, so that should also be a non-issue.

Non-draft will most likely have entry fees as well if there are going to be prizes. If you pay any sort of entry fee, that's all they are looking at.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 12:49 PM
It sounds like the tournaments are going to be the basic PvP, and you get rewards based on how well you did - I didn't see anything about paying for them anywhere.

It just said "If you have 3 hours to use/spend, play in a tournament, and earn rewards!"

If you can show me something that states otherwise, I would be interested to see it. Also, if a Dev can answer the question it would solve it in one go.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 12:55 PM
I know it has been mentioned, mostly in context to draft (Stating for example that your packs from kickstarter can be used to draft, but there will be a small draft entry fee to fund prize support)

houjix
05-10-2013, 12:57 PM
It sounds like the tournaments are going to be the basic PvP, and you get rewards based on how well you did - I didn't see anything about paying for them anywhere.

It just said "If you have 3 hours to use/spend, play in a tournament, and earn rewards!"

If you can show me something that states otherwise, I would be interested to see it. Also, if a Dev can answer the question it would solve it in one go.

From the tournaments page

"Constructed QueueThis is a single elimination tournament you can jump into with 8 people. Grab your favorite deck and go! Prizes go out to the top 4 players. As we get a few more sets out, we will definitely add queues for other constructed formats to keep things interesting. Constructed tournaments don’t require packs to participate in (unlike drafts), so they are typically cheaper to enter."

That's pretty much all the inference you need that tournaments will cost something to enter and I doubt it will be in game gold. They are going to attempt to make money off this game as well and tournament entry fee is part of the way to do that. Pack purchases alone will not do that.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 01:05 PM
Well then, that seems like it is going to cost money.

But that leaves me wondering, will there be ANY form of PvP you can play for free? I mean other than casual.

The way I had understood it was that constructed was meant to be your main form of PvP, and draft is like a paid version, where you always get a kind of reward (considering you can pick and choose out of the cards, to an extent, which is already a benefit over randomly pulling cards.)

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 01:08 PM
Nope, doesnt look like it, other then the occasional special event that's free to enter.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 01:10 PM
Well, that sucks. I was considering doing a soft subscription, and use those free packs to keep me more or less up-to-date, and play non-draft on my off days, but I don't have the disposable income to throw at my screen for every tournament.

That is a huge dissapointment. I might have to take up farming certian cards I can sell for premium currency...

Ashenor
05-10-2013, 01:25 PM
This is what gets me, people complain that something is going to cost money and gets disappointed, instead will then try to farm ingame hours on end to make a little bit of money in game. How about this get a side job once a week, mow some lawns, anything. If money is that tight make a little extra and put it towards you hobby.

thx42
05-10-2013, 01:26 PM
Well, that sucks. I was considering doing a soft subscription, and use those free packs to keep me more or less up-to-date, and play non-draft on my off days, but I don't have the disposable income to throw at my screen for every tournament.

That is a huge dissapointment. I might have to take up farming certian cards I can sell for premium currency...

Well, we still haven't gotten an official answer, so hopefully they will come up with some kind of solution.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 01:27 PM
Ashenor, sometimes that is just not an option. I'm lucky i can make ends meet from home, because i can barely leave the house due to issues with my knees, there have been many times in my life i would have 0 money for things like this. The one thing i will say though is there should be more appreciation for what IS free, a full mmo style ccg, with all kinds of content, for 0 cost.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 01:30 PM
Ashenor, I would if I could. However I am not a native here, and the economy is really tight, and jobs are rare. I don't even have a main job right now, and I have a "side" job, delivering papers, and every cent goes to food and bills.

Which is the whole reason I am stressing out about wether or not to make a one time splurge and go king tier, or save the money...

EDIT: Mehlo, I plan to spend time on the free side, but it is sad if I can't compete in PvP just because I cant make ends meet every month. If they had free ones with a lower tier of reward, I would be happy enough, but not being able to feel like I can be competetive just because I can't afford it really sucks.

I used to play MTG, never spent more than a couple of boosters, and through clever trading, and careful playing, I did quite well, and I will feel quite sad if I can't play any kind of PvP without offering up money I don't have.

I do like that they have included premuim currency for cards, etc, and that might alleviate my issues, but I will have to work twice as hard in-game just to participate, and that seems like a raw deal. Ah well.

Ashenor
05-10-2013, 01:40 PM
Ah ok Xenavire sorry for your situation. I have always bartended weekends as a second job to help fund my gaming addictions :).

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 01:42 PM
Xenavire, my suggestion would be to farm in the PvE side, grab enough cheap commons and uncommons off the auction house, and see if they have pauper style tournaments

houjix
05-10-2013, 01:44 PM
I think it has been said that nothing you gain in PvE can be used in PVP. The PvP cards have to originate from boosters. Now the stuff you gain in PvE might be able to be traded for unopened boosters or piles of commons and uncommons.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 01:46 PM
That was my point, commons and uncommons will probably flood the auction house at reasonably low prices even for PvE currency, since anyone that drafts a lot for example will have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAy too many (looks at the strewn about magic cards in his appartment)

houjix
05-10-2013, 01:51 PM
That was my point, commons and uncommons will probably flood the auction house at reasonably low prices even for PvE currency, since anyone that drafts a lot for example will have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAy too many (looks at the strewn about magic cards in his appartment)

Sorry, for some reason read it as farm commons and uncommons from PvE.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 02:04 PM
Well I think if I am dedicated, I can get some decent cards, and if PvE players start buying PvE cards to make niche decks or for raiding progression, I might be able to make the entry fees, but it is a lot of work - I would be better off getting a full time job and playing for 2 hours in the weekend, and just buying all the cards I want with money.

But I will make do with what I have, and I am considering taking the plunge and getting king tier - perhaps I can sell the lotus I dont need to make enough for tournaments. I wonder how much they will go for?

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 02:06 PM
That's going to depend on how many players the game ends up with, but considering they are the most powerfull pve card currently shown, and one offs, they will quite possible have a moderate value

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 02:13 PM
Yeah, I figured that myself, but it makes we wonder what the precise value is likely to be - a dollar? Two? Ten? Or a few cents?

If I could feel more confidant about that, I would be more sure about sinking money into it.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 02:16 PM
I would guess maybe around 50 cents? And while that may not seem like a lot, will pay for itself inside of a year

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 02:17 PM
Yeah, I had done the math, but I am just hoping there is a floor on the price and we wont all end up undercutting each other.

Especially the PvP players, since the card is only useful in PvE, so I see myself having competition. I guess it depends on supply and demand.

Mehlo
05-10-2013, 02:19 PM
It's hard to gauge this early, since we dont know the ratio of gardens to players, but it can only go up over time

nearlysober
05-10-2013, 03:45 PM
They have stated on the forums several times there will be a fee to enter an official tourney to fund the prizes, on top of the price of the boosters. So even if you bring your own boosters, you'll have to pay an entry fee. See this post for example (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23000&page=3&p=206131#post206131).

This could complicate things for some states... hopefully it is something already on their radar.

Of course you could always just duel people. From what I've read it sounds like you can also setup tournaments within your guild, or between guilds for fun (no prizes from CZE, but no cash fee either).

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 04:03 PM
I dont know if I am misreading that, but it seems to me like it implies waiving the booster price... It could go either way.

And I want to be competitive in the sense that I can compete with people on my level knowing something good might come if I win - I could duel people with my PvE decks and never care about the metagame if I so chose, but I kinda like the metagame, and would love to test it out when there are changes, and play against people of the same skill level. Sounds like it might be difficult to achieve for me.

WWKnight
05-10-2013, 04:31 PM
Ashenor, I would if I could. However I am not a native here, and the economy is really tight, and jobs are rare. I don't even have a main job right now, and I have a "side" job, delivering papers, and every cent goes to food and bills.

Which is the whole reason I am stressing out about wether or not to make a one time splurge and go king tier, or save the money...

EDIT: Mehlo, I plan to spend time on the free side, but it is sad if I can't compete in PvP just because I cant make ends meet every month. If they had free ones with a lower tier of reward, I would be happy enough, but not being able to feel like I can be competetive just because I can't afford it really sucks.

I used to play MTG, never spent more than a couple of boosters, and through clever trading, and careful playing, I did quite well, and I will feel quite sad if I can't play any kind of PvP without offering up money I don't have.

I do like that they have included premuim currency for cards, etc, and that might alleviate my issues, but I will have to work twice as hard in-game just to participate, and that seems like a raw deal. Ah well.

I like you bud! I'll be sure to help you out when I can. Join my guild! :D

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 04:51 PM
WWKnight, I will if you will have me! I don't know many IRL people who will play, so I might be rather lonely, so finding someone I like and getting into a good guild would encourage me to play a lot more!

Kitsune
05-10-2013, 07:05 PM
It's not MtGO's fault; there are laws in place that are tying their hands on the matter. It's certainly not in their best interest to prevent people from playing their game! So yes, I'm afraid that any system similar to MtGO, which Hex certainly qualifies as, is going to have similar problems.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 07:40 PM
I dont know if I am misreading that, but it seems to me like it implies waiving the booster price... It could go either way.

Here is Kyle explaining how it will work (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23021&p=205880&viewfull=1#post205880). So there will be a fee depending on how many packs you can donate.


And I want to be competitive in the sense that I can compete with people on my level knowing something good might come if I win - I could duel people with my PvE decks and never care about the metagame if I so chose, but I kinda like the metagame, and would love to test it out when there are changes, and play against people of the same skill level. Sounds like it might be difficult to achieve for me.

I know that it has been said that they are looking into League play which I'm assuming you do not pay for just to play against one player with your set Deck. Although, I can't comment on how many or if there will be Tourneys with out entry fee like special events, or possibly events without prizes and is for people that just want to compete some more without paying.

Xenavire
05-10-2013, 07:46 PM
I hope they use league play as the primary form of daily PvP (sign up for multiple league tiers or something, and play several good games a day). Would also be nice to get card rewards after certian milestones or something, and it would satisfy my desire to PvP (I hope).

Blare731
05-10-2013, 08:01 PM
Also I don't really know that much about the League thing like I said but, I know the main thing they are going on now is that a draft tourney can happen 24/7 any time 8 people are able to get together.