PDA

View Full Version : Out-of-game card trading/selling ala Magic Online



Kitsune
05-10-2013, 07:02 PM
So, to get to the point quickly, does Cryptozoic plan to allow for a market to exist outside of the in-game-money auction house? There's a thriving little economy to Magic Online for buying and selling cards for actual cash that allows for suitably motivated players to fund their card addiction by selling off tournament winnings and the like, and before I pledge to hand over money on a Kickstart I'd want to be sure I could sell off excess cards without getting banned for it.

To reiterate, I'm not referring to selling cards for foozles or whatever fake MMOG currency is involved on the auction house, I'm referring to going over to a place like mtgotraders and handing over cards for cash so I can turn around and buy some boosters. And I know that anyone can make shady deals outside of the game that are hard to catch, so the question isn't so much whether you can sell your cards to people but whether Cryptozoic intends to be taking steps to try to prevent it.

Selfar
05-10-2013, 07:12 PM
Most likely not since they have an in-game real money auction house. Most likely they'll make a cut one way or another, similar to Diablo III. So they will most likely "Outlaw", via EULA, any Ebay selling/buying etc...

Erebus
05-10-2013, 07:13 PM
Current plans for HEX already support real money transactions.

The question hasn't been answered about the ability, or requirements for Real Money withdrawal from the system. Probably because there are several legal and security foibles that need to be accounted for first.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 07:17 PM
They are already implementing an In-Game Real money AH so that they can keep it all controlled and in one economy. Also that means that there is less of a chance to get screwed and more security.

Kitsune
05-10-2013, 07:20 PM
Yeah, money in isn't the question, it's money out. They can't really do anything to prevent deals on the side to hand over all of your cards to someone for five gold (plus a hundred dollars in paypal), unless someone's doing it regularly, as they can always claim, "Oh this is my good friend Bob, I was just giving my cards away to him." and there's no way to prove them wrong. But it would still be tacky to attempt to prevent people from selling their cards, given that Magic already allows it.

freudinio
05-10-2013, 07:33 PM
I asked on their facebook and was told that you could NOT sell your cards on the AH for "Real life moneys". The response I got was that I could list cards for only "Gold or Platinum" which is the in game currencies provided. I have not yet received and answer towards if they would support a secondary market. In fact, most of these questions have been dodged on both the facebook and the kickstarter. :)

Blare731
05-10-2013, 07:54 PM
I asked on their facebook and was told that you could NOT sell your cards on the AH for "Real life moneys". The response I got was that I could list cards for only "Gold or Platinum" which is the in game currencies provided. I have not yet received and answer towards if they would support a secondary market. In fact, most of these questions have been dodged on both the facebook and the kickstarter. :)

Yes sorry, I should have clarified. It is a Platinum market, but the Original Platinum will have to be bought with Real Money to get. So in "essence" it is real money you are gaining. Now it is true that I have not seen and I believe they haven't said anything on whether you can get back the money from Platinum.

I'm sure that once they are able to ensure that accounts as a whole are going to be secure they will also allow for this. That is because until they can ensure that no one can just take the platinum out of your account and leave it alone otherwise. They don't want to legally be responsible for money that you put into the game. However if it stays in the game that means that they can retrieve it and give it back to you once the account was reclaimed from whoever got to it in the first place.

Although I'm sure that it is in CZE best interest to allow for one to take out Platinum once they have security because it they can take a cut (just like Bliz in Diablo 3) which is huge potential for profit. Even if they cut is small, which it should be. And for those who say they don't deserve a cut, the cut is for being able to sell and gain money through a trusted source. That is why it I believe it is perfectly fine to have a cut. On the other hand I do not like how wow has a double cut. For instance, they will get a cut of the initial purchase of the item (which is kept from the seller), and then they will take a 15% cut when you take the money out. Which is a huge portion of the entire sale, especially when items were being sold for 250 like wild fire in the beginning.

Kitsune
05-10-2013, 08:30 PM
I never expected their in-game auction house to let you just slap a $4.99 bid on your card, any more than you can trade directly for cash in MtGO's trade system. The important distinction being that MtGO doesn't prevent players from making a monetary deal outside of the game and then trading inside the game. If Cryptozoic allows for cashing out platinum then everything's grand as-is; you trade for platinum in the game and cash it out, done. But if they decide not to have a method for recovering money from platinum, the question about trading outside the game comes up.

JMFD
05-10-2013, 08:42 PM
The question about moving money outside of the game has yet to be answered. It seems to be skimmed over on almost every thread it comes up on while every other question is promptly answered.

Blare731
05-10-2013, 08:43 PM
I never expected their in-game auction house to let you just slap a $4.99 bid on your card, any more than you can trade directly for cash in MtGO's trade system. The important distinction being that MtGO doesn't prevent players from making a monetary deal outside of the game and then trading inside the game. If Cryptozoic allows for cashing out platinum then everything's grand as-is; you trade for platinum in the game and cash it out, done. But if they decide not to have a method for recovering money from platinum, the question about trading outside the game comes up.

I don't see why they would/should limit it. I don't mind them making a small cut of my money because I know they are a trusted handler of my money and it is not being stolen and stuff. But if they choose not to and I want to sell all my cards for real cash then yeah I would like the option for selling it outside of the game because I want to be 'done' with the game.

But like I said I think the only reason they are holding back from answering whether or not you can extract your platinum is the security of the accounts.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 02:48 AM
Wether it's legit or not there will be an outside for $ economy (that'd even be a sign that the game is healthy and the wares are desired).
So might as well be legit in the AH so they can get their cut

~

Kitsune
05-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Oh, I agree that it makes perfect sense for them to encourage it. But companies and common sense can have at best a casual relationship, which is why I want official confirmation before dropping hundreds of dollars sight unseen on their game.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 10:02 AM
I'm pretty sure you won't have confirmation before the end of the kickstarter

~

Shoubushi
05-11-2013, 10:25 AM
I'm pretty sure you won't have confirmation before the end of the kickstarter

I'm scared this will be the case with a lot of these game changing decisions that CZE has yet to make.

Kitsune
05-11-2013, 12:11 PM
I'm pretty sure you won't have confirmation before the end of the kickstarter

That's why I'm asking. My money (and a lot of other peoples' money, I would wager) hinges on that answer. The sooner they get a clear answer out there, the sooner they'll get pledges.

d00dz
05-11-2013, 01:08 PM
That's why I'm asking. My money (and a lot of other peoples' money, I would wager) hinges on that answer. The sooner they get a clear answer out there, the sooner they'll get pledges.

I'm one of those people. Very wanting to pledge on the Producer tier but needing confirmation on some issues including this one before my finances take a nosedive.

Lovecore
05-11-2013, 01:25 PM
I'm one of those people. Very wanting to pledge on the Producer tier but needing confirmation on some issues including this one before my finances take a nosedive.

This is the same for me as well. I hope we see an answer! Otherwise It'll end up being a Pro-Player pledge.

Ashenor
05-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Pretty sure it has a lot to do with gambling laws and interchanging real money with in game currency. Why mtgo is ticket based or selling for cash is down outside of game. Hopefully they allow for out of game sales and it has a thriving economy like mtgo.

Malakili
05-11-2013, 01:59 PM
Surely something like Diablo 3 would be possible?

Draconis
05-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Diablo 3's RMAH has also been extremely controversial, threatened to delay the launch of the game in South Korea, and makes the game a much, much bigger target for attack, whether by hackers, scammers, bot 'farmers' or anything else. I can certainly understand why Crypto would be extremely cautious about implementing any kind of system that lets players exchange real money via the game.

Kitsune
05-11-2013, 07:42 PM
They don't have to implement a money exchange system and take the responsibility for it, they just have to say that they won't interfere with player trades made outside the game.

swigmonkey
05-11-2013, 08:44 PM
I think this needs to be sorted out and answered. Straight up can I sell the cards I get for cash on ebay, via paypal to friends etc. The purpose of a TCG is cards have value. If I decide I want to stop, which I think many people have with MTG before and sell out, I have that option. Will I lose money from what I have spent, absolutely. But I'll still recoup some of my cost. I can not in anyway shape or form see me shelling out for "boosters" that have no real world value I can get out of them. I know everytime I open a pack of Magic I might score a hot mythic or some other nice foil worth 20+ that I can sell instantly.

If that is not possible then make it like Call of Cthulhu from Fantasy Flight games with set expansions costing "X" amount of cash, basically your paid content patch. But that will pretty much suck the TCG part of it away for people wanting to twist a profit in the TCG, as that is part of the fun for some, and makes me fine with shelling out cash for cards/packs. The secondary market has got to be in this game period.

The option to make money or my purchase for a TCG is the underlying value. Reason why I do not try many alternative TCGs to be honest as if there is no possibility to make money of my purchase why am I shelling out what I deem an unreasonable amount of cash for some cardboard crack, in this case digital.

I played the Stargate TCG from SOE for a longtime and finally sold it all at one point for a fraction of what I spent, needless to say, SOE never took down post that people were selling their cards on, and many sold for all their games that I am aware of.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 09:52 PM
I think this needs to be sorted out and answered. Straight up can I sell the cards I get for cash on ebay, via paypal to friends etc. The purpose of a TCG is cards have value. If I decide I want to stop, which I think many people have with MTG before and sell out, I have that option. Will I lose money from what I have spent, absolutely. But I'll still recoup some of my cost. I can not in anyway shape or form see me shelling out for "boosters" that have no real world value I can get out of them. I know everytime I open a pack of Magic I might score a hot mythic or some other nice foil worth 20+ that I can sell instantly.

If that is not possible then make it like Call of Cthulhu from Fantasy Flight games with set expansions costing "X" amount of cash, basically your paid content patch. But that will pretty much suck the TCG part of it away for people wanting to twist a profit in the TCG, as that is part of the fun for some, and makes me fine with shelling out cash for cards/packs. The secondary market has got to be in this game period.

The option to make money or my purchase for a TCG is the underlying value. Reason why I do not try many alternative TCGs to be honest as if there is no possibility to make money of my purchase why am I shelling out what I deem an unreasonable amount of cash for some cardboard crack, in this case digital.

I played the Stargate TCG from SOE for a longtime and finally sold it all at one point for a fraction of what I spent, needless to say, SOE never took down post that people were selling their cards on, and many sold for all their games that I am aware of.

Unfortunately you aren't going to get anything until monday probably when everybody is back in the office.

JMFD
05-11-2013, 11:55 PM
They don't have to implement a money exchange system and take the responsibility for it, they just have to say that they won't interfere with player trades made outside the game.

You hit the nail on the head here. Not providing a sanctioned method for selling things outside of the game is one thing. But condeming it by "banning accounts for people caught selling" etc. is a complete turn off. My level of wager definitely hinges on this.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 03:03 AM
The issue for them if they go that way is that they're implementing a kinda $ AH in which they'll take a cut.
If most transactions are done via Ebay there is no cut for them and they'll have tons of customer service issues with people scamming
It's a straight loss for them

~

Tinc
05-12-2013, 04:39 AM
The issue for them if they go that way is that they're implementing a kinda $ AH in which they'll take a cut.
If most transactions are done via Ebay there is no cut for them and they'll have tons of customer service issues with people scamming
It's a straight loss for them

~


If they don't allow the withdrawal of value into real world money it would be a major loss for them. As great as the game may be many players will leave if the rewards aren't there. This isn't a one off purchase or a wow subscription your paying for. What's the point of paying and playing tournament after tournament if your money/earnings sits in an unreachable wallet on their server. The next DTCG that comes along that caters for real money withdrawal will takeover over night.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 04:43 AM
We're saying the same thing.
I'm just explaining that Ebay market is bad for them, they need to work on having $ withdrawal, so all trades will go thru them and they can get their cut on the second market.

~

Tinc
05-12-2013, 04:53 AM
eBay at your own risk, sure it might generate some bad feelings for those that don't play safe but markets for those more mature players will develop and succeed. Ebay is customer orientated, a few dodgy dealings and your over. Its amazing what a few dedicated entrepreneurial individuals and their services can bring to a community.

A simple solution would be to refund unopened boosters, that way people can buy and trade and cash out in boosters. I know there's a lot of laws and red tape around, but surely if you can buy a booster you can get a refund for a booster....

edit :unopened booster obviously.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 04:53 AM
This issue is really complicated.
In each scenario there could be abuses :
- Money laundering (mafia buy $1M of plat and instantly cash it out)
- Platinum deflation (players selling boosters $1 on Ebay making CZE not selling anything in game)
- Taxes (US takes 30% of cash prizes iirc)
- International taxes (not sure how that works)

They need to have a $100-200k stretch goal to implement that hiring lawyers, international lawyers, economists, marketers to make sure all ends in a win-win scenario; if they miss a backdoor it could be bankrupt/death of the game...

~

Tinc
05-12-2013, 05:39 AM
1)yeah i'm sure the mafia are just waiting for an opportunity like this.
2)where are these ebayers getting these boosters from?
3)that is fine for cash prizes. in game prizes and cashing out just comes down to personal tax responsibilities
4)personal responsibility of earnings in most cases

i'm all for a stretch goal if that is what is required...

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 05:46 AM
How realistic to you they may seem, there can't be any loopholes in that kinda thing

~

swigmonkey
05-12-2013, 06:44 AM
@Fireblast,

I think people aren't talking about cashing out the ingame currency. I'm talking about straight selling my cards that are used in the TCG portion of this, I don't care of the PVE only stuff can not be sold that I gain ingame by playing the MMO portion of the game.

I think most people are concerned about if I buy 3 booster boxes, can I turn a profit on it if I decide to make an ingame "shop" ala MTGO style. Or once I am done playing because of no longer enjoying, or any other reason.

@tinc, your Idea would be a good one, except for the free drafts each week, and I am assuming prize is unopened boosters(maybe they would tag "tournament" packs as unrefundable) so that would be a simple way that they get their cut and each refunded booster is 90% of the $2.00.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 06:57 AM
swigmonkey, I understand that but it's not (to me) compatible with premium currency AH that's being implemented

~

Tinc
05-12-2013, 07:42 AM
swigmonkey its been stated the free drafts are not boosters but just a button that allows free entry. (edit: Button covers the cost of entry plus the X boosters)

If tournament prize value is covered by the entry fee then its not a major issue. Even if prizes are more than the entry fee the fact that each player has opened 3 packs to draft even if a dollar or two of the money that was spent on the draft packs that are now opened was allocated to prize money cryptozoic is still well ahead considering its costing them close to 0 to generate a booster.

they would just have to be very strict on the pricing and the giving away of free boosters. But to maintain a happy consumer base they would need to do that anyway.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 07:58 AM
The pro tier free drafts do include boosters, but I doubt any other free drafts will act like this, without a really good reason.

Kitsune
05-13-2013, 05:36 PM
Okay, to answer my own question here, president guy Cory got pestered today about the secondary market and said that they won't be coming down on peoples' heads about it. My concerns are therefore resolved and time to spend way too much money on pledging.

Tinc
05-13-2013, 06:11 PM
Kitsune do you have a link to the source of this information?

thanks

schild
05-13-2013, 06:23 PM
I'm the source.

Sup.

Tinc
05-13-2013, 06:35 PM
so what exactly was discussed?

schild
05-13-2013, 07:24 PM
I came up with specific situations, one of which was "Say I gave $10,000 for the producer level, would you all be OK with me turning around and selling the playsets on Ebay or wherever" - the answer was yes.

Look, end of the day, they have to let the secondary market flourish. Case dismissed.

BohemianStalker
05-14-2013, 08:41 AM
I cant believe this question has still not been officially adressed. I am ready to put 250$ on this game and hook some more friends to it, but I wont do it before I know If I can cash out legally....

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 08:51 AM
They have stated you can do back room deals without interference - that is enough for now.

Being able to withdraw what is already in-game would be nice, but you could find ways to re-invest it and sell cards for said amount (or possibly more if you are savvy.)

I think that should be enough.

JMFD
05-14-2013, 09:00 AM
They have stated you can do back room deals without interference - that is enough for now.

Being able to withdraw what is already in-game would be nice, but you could find ways to re-invest it and sell cards for said amount (or possibly more if you are savvy.)

I think that should be enough.

I haven't seen where they stated back room deals are ok, do you know where that was mentioned?

swigmonkey
05-14-2013, 09:08 AM
I see a lot of people saying its been confimed that it will be allowed, but yet no one has offered a link, I think that is what many of us want. I want to see an official current stance on it from someone posting from the company.

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 09:10 AM
Someone from the forums called the big boss Cory - he said specifically that their stance is that it is OK.

swigmonkey
05-14-2013, 09:13 AM
Someone from the forums called the big boss Cory - he said specifically that their stance is that it is OK.

Then Cory would have no problem posting on the forums. This is all people are asking. Just cause someone randomly post something on the internet doesn't make it true (Not saying I don't believe that is their stance, but it should be easy to just have an official response on it.)

Erebus
05-14-2013, 09:15 AM
I think you're missing the point Swigmonkey.

We're not the only investors in this project, heck it's almost done. Back room deals and secondary markets have stigmas and liabilities that look bad on the financial side of the house. However, the developers understand why the players want something like this, either in game or out of game.

If they can't afford to implement something like this, or their bigger backers don't want them to, or even if the legal ramifications are sketchy at best, what are they to do? Tell the players who want it they can't do it? Ignore their financial backers and tell players sure do whatever you want?

I think the route their taking is a little more elegant and subtle. They can tell their backers/legal consultants/accountants that it's not allowed and put its prohibition in the EULA, but then tell players they are going to ignore it for the most part. However, if a toxic element starts to rise up, they can use their EULA to prosecute those elements.

You have to decide for yourself if the company CAN'T (not won't) do it, what answer is suitable enough for you.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 09:18 AM
I have a hunch. It's ONLY a hunch, but I'll bet that the reason there is no official response is that a good solution (pulling plat out for real $ or some other overly awesome feature) is in the works, but not announced yet. So many things have been hinted at (but not locked down, as you have said) that I can't help but think that something will reveal itself soon...I hope it's soon.

Kami
05-14-2013, 09:22 AM
I think the route their taking is a little more elegant and subtle. They can tell their backers/legal consultants/accountants that it's not allowed and put its prohibition in the EULA, but then tell players they are going to ignore it for the most part. However, if a toxic element starts to rise up, they can use their EULA to prosecute those elements.

This.

It's far safer for them to state it off the record than officially. They have more to risk by stating it is allowed (i.e. legal issues) than not stating it. Since they are the administrators of the game, it is their prerogative whether they enforce penalties on the secondary market or not if they don't have a system of their own in place. Currently, it seems as though it will not be enforced but the assumption is that it will be barred in the ToS to protect themselves.

BohemianStalker
05-14-2013, 09:55 AM
This.

It's far safer for them to state it off the record than officially. They have more to risk by stating it is allowed (i.e. legal issues) than not stating it. Since they are the administrators of the game, it is their prerogative whether they enforce penalties on the secondary market or not if they don't have a system of their own in place. Currently, it seems as though it will not be enforced but the assumption is that it will be barred in the ToS to protect themselves.

Care to explain the "legal issues" ? Thanks
I am really starting to wonder how can pc games still be excluded from reality. When I buy a card I can sell it ..however when you buy some digital card , there are these nonsense rules that you are only being given a grant to use it. While money is a big factor for me, this kind of "disgust" over me not being able to do with my property what I want is starting to piss me off too.

I dont like shady practice and I just want this awesome company to retain same level of honesty and transparency when it comes to this question. They can do it with everything else..so why cant you with this ?

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:00 AM
Care to explain the "legal issues" ? Thanks
I am really starting to wonder how can pc games still be excluded from reality. When I buy a card I can sell it ..however when you buy some digital card , there are these nonsense rules that you are only being given a grant to use it. While money is a big factor for me, this kind of "disgust" over me not being able to do with my property what I want is starting to piss me off too.

I dont like shady practice and I just want this awesome company to retain same level of honesty and transparency when it comes to this question. They can do it with everything else..so why cant you with this ?

Example (as ridiculous as it seems):

"In order to get rated in South Korea, Blizzard had to remove the real-money auction house from the Korean release of the game as the auction house violated Korean anti-gambling laws." - Diablo III RMT issues

Erebus
05-14-2013, 10:07 AM
Mid-level draft play is basically akin to drafting.

It's not much different from a poker tournament, you buy-in, using skill and luck you can technically get more out of then you put in. Granted it's not as bad as the all or nothing type of poker buy-ins, but people can argue the same thing.

Also there's the issue of taxation.

I live in Las Vegas, but believe it or not, we tend to have even tougher stances on internet gambling. Mostly because the casinos run everything over here, and anything that could affect their profits is shutdown.

Not every company is Blizzard, I really don't want my kickstarter funds used to pay for a legal team to fight an anti-gambling lawsuit.

cervidal
05-14-2013, 10:39 AM
Do all of you realize that eBay is one giant trap, even if CZE gives their blessing?

You cannot sell non-physical goods for cash on eBay as it violates their terms of service. Further, you do not own your cards; the intellectual property will belong to CZE. Using eBay to transfer intellectual property also violates their terms of service.

If I buy Hex cards from you via eBay, once you transfer those electronic packets of information to me, I am 100% within my rights to file a complaint with eBay, which will, in turn, get me my money back. You, as the Hex seller, will have zero recourse to get the cards back from me as there is no real way for CZE to track any of our outside-the-game conversation.

This trap has caused grief for sellers for years in WoW and WoWTCG; if you don't send and provide proof that you sent the physical card, you're going to lose your money.

You can conspire to create all the secondary market you want, but it will be virtually impossible to set up something along the lines of an online retail system for these cards without the direct involvement of CZE.

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:41 AM
There are other markets out there that exists besides eBay....

houjix
05-14-2013, 10:42 AM
Tell that to the currently 30 auctions for MTGO on ebay as we speak.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:45 AM
Care to explain the "legal issues" ? Thanks

Fundamentally the "legal issues" are that governments love to regulate anything that looks even vaguely like gambling or a bank. Furthermore any given lawyer can only advise you on law in the jurisdiction in which they can practice law. Since hex is an online game that is expected to be available across many jurisdictions just getting the several dozen lawyers to look over it and say "yep looks good" could be ridiculously time consuming an expensive.

And that's assuming there isn't some unexpected catch like: Switzerland decides to charge capital gains tax on cards sold for more than they were bought for.

cervidal
05-14-2013, 10:47 AM
Tell that to the currently 30 auctions for MTGO on ebay as we speak.

Awesome. 30 auctions completely vulnerable to the 'loot code e-mail' scam.

Looks like I just gave you a new idea to get some sweet cards for free.

eBay isn't just eBay - it's also the entirety of PayPal, which shares eBay's ToS.

Maybe eBay isn't the end all, but PayPal is pretty darn close.

BohemianStalker
05-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Awesome. 30 auctions completely vulnerable to the 'loot code e-mail' scam.

Looks like I just gave you a new idea to get some sweet cards for free.

eBay isn't just eBay - it's also the entirety of PayPal, which shares eBay's ToS.

Maybe eBay isn't the end all, but PayPal is pretty darn close.

I bought tix(mtgo currency)from ebay and the same sellers have been selling them for years. You can also check their feedback and see that they have around 98-99% feedback score and thousands of trades.

What you describe is possible, but in reality it does not happen

Also you should check this page and not alarm people with false info:
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Selling-Digital-Goods-on-eBay/10000000000808756/g.html

Erebus
05-14-2013, 12:45 PM
I'm so confused... Everything written on the internet is true... but now I see two directly conflicting facts....

::head explodes::

swigmonkey
05-14-2013, 12:46 PM
Do all of you realize that eBay is one giant trap, even if CZE gives their blessing?

You cannot sell non-physical goods for cash on eBay as it violates their terms of service. Further, you do not own your cards; the intellectual property will belong to CZE. Using eBay to transfer intellectual property also violates their terms of service.

If I buy Hex cards from you via eBay, once you transfer those electronic packets of information to me, I am 100% within my rights to file a complaint with eBay, which will, in turn, get me my money back. You, as the Hex seller, will have zero recourse to get the cards back from me as there is no real way for CZE to track any of our outside-the-game conversation.

This trap has caused grief for sellers for years in WoW and WoWTCG; if you don't send and provide proof that you sent the physical card, you're going to lose your money.

You can conspire to create all the secondary market you want, but it will be virtually impossible to set up something along the lines of an online retail system for these cards without the direct involvement of CZE.

I'm sorry but are you serious? I've been a powerseller before and have NEVER once had a Ebay take my money. Does it happen? Yeah, but that kind of thought process is done by people selling expensive cards and have a zero rating and joined yesterday, and there are processes that protect you that you can add, such as sending and delivery confirmation, insurance, etc.

As for the original response from Erebus;

I understand the whole legal side of it, thats why I wanted it if they could give us an official stance. Most likely the TOS/EULA will say they own all the product and we are just purchasing the items digitally etc, and no physical type will ever be given, basically some blanket statement to say the cards are worth digital squat incase the game goes offline, you get hacked, the server storing all your stuff and the backups are all destroyed at the same time by some act of God, etc. This so they aren't legally obligated to owe you anything since items have no digital value.

(I'm not sure how MTGO handles all of it since you can "physical copy out" your cards during a specific timeframe of release of a set for any of the product produced offline)

With that said, their unoffical stance is they aren't going to pursue cases of people buying and selling outside the game client which I'm pretty sure everyone knew was going to be the case anyways.

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 03:54 PM
Maybe CZE should just make withdrawing platinum for real money an expensive stretch goal…

d00dz
05-14-2013, 04:23 PM
With the inclusion of a monthly subscription (including a tournament with another entry fee) I think Dragon Lord and higher tiers should get lifetime subs. It's only a few boosters anyway, not gonna hurt.

Immortal (which needs a serious upgrade) and producer could get free tournament and event entries for life.

Edit: Oops. Posted in the wrong thread.