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MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 07:24 AM
http://i.imgur.com/BYMNom1.jpg

Plz NO.

:)

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 07:28 AM
yes plz :/

~

Devaux
05-11-2013, 07:30 AM
I've been wondering about this but haven't had the heard to ask. I'm very curious to know if there will be counterspells.

Kami
05-11-2013, 07:32 AM
Well, considering they already have a variation of:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/al/229.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to Counterspell.

In fact, considering how powerful some of these cards are, without some way to negate them, or encourage various deck styles, it'd be disappointing NOT to see something like Counterspell in the game.

Devaux
05-11-2013, 07:35 AM
Well, considering they already have a variation of:

[Wrath of God]

I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to Counterspell.

In fact, considering how powerful some of these cards are, without some way to negate them, or encourage various deck styles, it'd be disappointing NOT to see something like Counterspell in the game.

This. People hate counterspells so much but don't realize that they are the spiders of the TCG universe. Also you may fear Counterspell but Cancel never hurt anyone.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 07:39 AM
Baiting counterspells is a nice aspect of a TCG too

~

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 07:43 AM
If we will have hard counters here i at last hope thet they will not be exclusive for one color (like Blue in MTG).

Or maybe each color should have hard counters for other type of card etc...


But overall i think 'hard' counters are weak design. I aprrove something like Mana Leak for example:

http://i.imgur.com/x1gj4Lu.jpg

But not counterspell or even worse:

http://i.imgur.com/N2Qqx63.jpg

Absorb was extremely OP, annoying and expensive card in my MTG times.

:)

Overall i always like blue in MTG mre for 'boomerang' type return to hand mechanics not for hard counters that make the ga,e 'wait till blue player will make mistake (no mana) and play most boring game in your MTG life meanwhile'.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 07:44 AM
A necessary evil, IMO.

Kami
05-11-2013, 07:45 AM
You also have to consider the fact you can Counterspell Counterspell...

There's a meta-game in theory/strategy/tactics. It's a bit like chess.

Devaux
05-11-2013, 07:50 AM
If we will have hard counters here i at last hope thet they will not be exclusive for one color (like Blue in MTG).

Or maybe each color should have hard counters for other type of card etc...


But overall i think 'hard' counters are weak design. I aprrove something like Mana Leak for example:

[Mana Leak]

But not counterspell or even worse:

[Absorb]

Absorb was extremely OP, annoying and expensive card in my MTG times.

:)

Overall i always like blue in MTG mre for 'boomerang' type return to hand mechanics not for hard counters that make the ga,e 'wait till blue player will make mistake (no mana) and play most boring game in your MTG life meanwhile'.

I'm fine with only one shard getting counterspells. Thats how the color pie works.

Also I didnt play MTG when Absorb was used.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 07:54 AM
I am a little disappointed that Hex has seemingly copied the entire colour pie as well. They could have at least mixed it up a little. Moved some secondaries to primary, some primaries to tertiaries.

*shrug* I am very excited about hex, I cant deny that. I do have a lot of lingering resentment about how much like magic it is though. Even where they could have deviated, they just chose not to :(

Kami
05-11-2013, 07:56 AM
We still haven't seen the full impact of socketing, equipment, etc.

There's also the digital aspect of 'creating' cards during gameplay (e.g. Pack Raptor) that's not seen in print-type formats.

The basis of Hex seems similar to MTG only in game mechanics but I think the actual result will be much deeper... possibly even chaotic (yay!).

thx42
05-11-2013, 07:58 AM
I am a little disappointed that Hex has seemingly copied the entire colour pie as well. They could have at least mixed it up a little. Moved some secondaries to primary, some primaries to tertiaries.

*shrug* I am very excited about hex, I cant deny that. I do have a lot of lingering resentment about how much like magic it is though. Even where they could have deviated, they just chose not to :(

With a name like HEX, there should be six colors!

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 08:03 AM
We still haven't seen the full impact of socketing, equipment, etc.

There's also the digital aspect of 'creating' cards during gameplay (e.g. Pack Raptor) that's not seen in print-type formats.

The basis of Hex seems similar to MTG only in game mechanics but I think the actual result will be much deeper... possibly even chaotic (yay!).

I understand all that, and I appreciate it. But they didnt even deviate from the colours used! We still have White, Blue, Black, Red, Green! All the colours do exactly what you expect them to do from magic! Yeah, gems and equipment are great. I am REALLY excited about those. I jsut wish they... took ownership of something to do with the actual gameplay. *shrug* I dont know. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth in an otherwise highly exciting project.

(Is it bad im excited about everything in this game, except the gameplay? :P)

Kami
05-11-2013, 08:09 AM
Well it makes sense.

I mean, Black/White aren't true colours, they are technically all colours or none. Or if you want to be technical, they denote light and hence are considered shades.

Red, Blue, Green... that's just your traditional RGB.

I don't think it was intentional to copy the 'colours', it just flows together in that sense.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Blood is technically purple, although it is a clone of black.

Besides, the most interesting cards have always been dual colour or colourless, like artifacts.

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Imho ofc it was intentional. Similiarities to MTG in HEX are too overhelming to be coincidence :)

And its good thing (for me) because i was dissoapointeed by crappy mechanics nad restricions of Heroes TCG and Heartstone for example.
MTG was (is?) the best TCG ever - HEX have chance to beat MTG only because its all MTG is + MORE. Just like WoW take all good in MMOs and adds polish, accesibility and some more things (organizaed raiding with progression?).

For example. Copying things from MTG that ppl know and love for soo long time (colors for example) is wise decision.

BTW. The game is called "HEX" and we have 5 colors... why? You have 6 counting Artifacts but stil...

MugenMusou
05-11-2013, 08:24 AM
Personally, I wouldn't mind counter spell. It is annoying when played against you but that's the way the deck works. Variation in play style is what draws me into TCG. If there is instant kill to a creature, then instant kill/cancel to creature and spell for given color make sense.

It becomes really broken when you can't predict, you can't counter the counter spell. But if we can see how many resource they left unused, it gives the player bluff power as well as you to predict the potential that's its coming. This sort of thinking process is fun.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 08:29 AM
Mirri, it WAS the best, but MTG has done some things that long term fans did not agree with. I personally don't play it anymore, yet I froth at the mouth thinking of how good HEX is. Fantastic game incoming, ready your wallets!

ShaolinRaven
05-11-2013, 08:32 AM
I also like the addition of counter or cancel type spells because it adds strategy on both sides. For the person using a counter deck you need to choose your target counters carefully and as the person against it you can also bait counters by playing decent cards, but not your most powerful cards. Also you could have other effects that play off of you being countered such as "play this card free if a troop card was countered" or other effects. The trick is balance, letting other deck types be able to respond to counters in varying ways.

JoonYoungK
05-11-2013, 08:54 AM
I personally think counterspell or counterspell like effects are needed. They can help build great decks or play a a solid filler to a good deck. They add an extra layer of thought to strategy of those playing and those playing against. Balancing out when you should tap out or if the opponents last card will screw your entire plan. I won't go as far as saying there should be a Force of Will but a counterspell would be remiss.

MirriCatWarrior
05-11-2013, 08:58 AM
If there will be hard counter they must design things that will annoy counters users like:

http://i.imgur.com/0jWPGx3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/otd0Ytn.jpg

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 09:23 AM
Vexing shusher.. Brilliant card, and one of the last sets I saw before I hugh it up. Ah, the days when I used to play.

Shoubushi
05-11-2013, 09:31 AM
I think keeping the colors the same is to save people from having trouble remembering between TCGs. Why mix is up for the sake of just being slightly different? It's obvious that most of the mechanics are identical.

If they wanted to be different, they could have changed it from just colors to something else. I can't think of any good example off of the top of my head though.

WWKnight
05-11-2013, 09:34 AM
Infinity Wars uses factions. Every expansion will be a new faction. Each faction has a different mix-up of mechanics, so while you may down the track end up with 2 or 3 factions that focus on kill spells, one may be supported with big beefy creatures, one may be supported with graveyard recursion and one may be supported with fast aggro creatures.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 09:38 AM
Gems! (Anyone get the joke yet? No? Oh well.)

But yeah, it is hard to change the colours to something else without making it seem like a different theme - Black/Blood is mostly about undead, but not entirely, so making it zombie themed would make it seem like something that it isn't - the same is true of Wild/Green, usually to do with forest-like or nature stuff, but not always.

belophen
05-11-2013, 09:42 AM
how about instead of counterspells cards that disrupt the opponent tempor, like "target spell doesnt revolve untill the next turn" or 1:"target troop spell enter the battlefield exhaust and with -1/-1"?

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 09:54 AM
That has potential - like certian blue cards in the past, exhaust, and they dont ready in the next turn. Has potential, but it would be interesting to see about abilities - some troops wont care about being exhausted, and will rain hellfire on everything anyway.

Malakili
05-11-2013, 11:19 AM
There needs to be something like counter spells. Control decks need to be a thing. A game where decks only just slug each other back and forth until someone loses is not an interesting TCG.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Well, technically control could exist to a point without counterspells - bounce cards, spot removal, board wipes, mana restricting cards, mill decks, invincible defending cards, and a few others I have forgotten can easily stall out and conrol the most vicious aggro decks.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 11:34 AM
Well, technically control could exist to a point without counterspells - bounce cards, spot removal, board wipes, mana restricting cards, mill decks, invincible defending cards, and a few others I have forgotten can easily stall out and conrol the most vicious aggro decks.

Without generic counterspell Control needs to have the right answer everytime which means they fail

~

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 11:39 AM
To be honest, which is more fair - losing because you didn't include the correct kinds of cards, or just filling your deck with blanket counters?

Sometimes blanket counters are far too strong, sometimes not strong enough, and it really depends on what they do.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 11:57 AM
Since when TCG and wins are meant to be fair ?

I'm just saying if the metagame is diverse and the answers are very narrow without generic ones (i.e counterspells) to even the odds, Control decks will always fail.

~

Malakili
05-11-2013, 12:02 PM
To be honest, which is more fair - losing because you didn't include the correct kinds of cards, or just filling your deck with blanket counters?

Sometimes blanket counters are far too strong, sometimes not strong enough, and it really depends on what they do.

I think of it less in terms of "fair" and more in terms of what kinds of interesting interactions are occurring in the game. Counter spells and control spells in general are interesting because they increase the number of points of contact between the two players. Remember, a control deck still needs to have a way to kill you at some point, just countering spells all day doesn't win you the game by itself.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 12:03 PM
I disagree - I have played control without counterspells. It was a different style, but it worked, but it did require fishing for mana and rushing ahead of the opponent - but the point is, it worked.

I don't mind if they are in the game, just pointing out the possibility.

MugenMusou
05-11-2013, 12:17 PM
Well, technically control could exist to a point without counterspells - bounce cards, spot removal, board wipes, mana restricting cards, mill decks, invincible defending cards, and a few others I have forgotten can easily stall out and conrol the most vicious aggro decks.

You are absolutely correct. A while back I did a bit research to find out what really means "control deck". I came to conclusion (though ppl uses differently) 3 big archetype exists in TCG control, aggro and combo. But within the control there are several deck types. Counter spell like instant based control deck can be categorized under Control Archetype Permission Deck Type. Whereas, there are other control such as Control Archetype Tapout. Mana restriction are sort of more a Combo Archetype Lock Down Deck type etc.

So what's my point? Well I agree and the best is to basically support all types of play so everyone can do whatever they want, and we see variety of decks as we play!

Blare731
05-11-2013, 12:26 PM
Yeah, I think that a counter spell or something similar will be needed or maybe preferred. Yes, can playing five people in a row with that use counter-spell want to tare your hair out, but rather learning out to deal with them effectively (Bluff the counter and make your opponent use it early or Bluff having a counter by intentionally saving some resources) It would be a different dynamic of the game I think would do well, especially when we have cards like Reps Gambit and board clearing cards.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 12:28 PM
That is a very good and useful point.

And on the topic, I have played control decks that weren't even blue (the typical control colour). White has a mass of tapping and paralyzing effects, along with hefty lifegain, black has incerdible card denial, from spot removal to hand destruction, green has potentially massive blockers with all sorts of bonuses that can play a lockout stall until you pull a win condition, and even red with burning off smaller things until you gather enough resources to burn someone for enough damage... It depends on play style which you play.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 12:33 PM
You're right, there are 3 types of decks :
Control : Wins by slowly grinding some kind of advantage on your opponent (mostly card advantage)
Aggro : Wins by killing your opponent before he could achieve his game plan
Combo : Wins by using a combination of cards to Instant kill / Lock out your opponent

Erebus
05-11-2013, 12:43 PM
It's all about the "I win" cards.

There are some cards that when they resolve win the game for the player resolving them. The final piece of someones Replicator Gambit Combo or well-timed Board Clear. The chance to respond these card adds another layer of strategy to the game. It's no longer about just stuffing your deck with "I win" cards and playing it as soon as possible, but building you deck with support for those cards and then playing them at the best time, rather then the earliest.

Some sort of counter-mechanic is needed. At least some way to prevent you from resolving your effect.

Malakili
05-11-2013, 12:44 PM
This is one of the interesting posts I've seen on the topic of the meta game in TCGs (vis-a-vis Magic) http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370207/what-i-know-about-magic-the-gathering

Devaux
05-11-2013, 01:03 PM
I think of it less in terms of "fair" and more in terms of what kinds of interesting interactions are occurring in the game. Counter spells and control spells in general are interesting because they increase the number of points of contact between the two players. Remember, a control deck still needs to have a way to kill you at some point, just countering spells all day doesn't win you the game by itself.

I agree with this. People who don't like counters think they're "un-fun" but that's just their play style. Some people think big creatures are un-fun.


I disagree - I have played control without counterspells. It was a different style, but it worked, but it did require fishing for mana and rushing ahead of the opponent - but the point is, it worked.

I don't mind if they are in the game, just pointing out the possibility.

The reasons counters are important to control is to give them a way to interact with non-permanent spells. Not every control deck needs them but they are often the best way to protect your win-con.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 01:10 PM
Oh, I didn't say counterspells aren't needed, just saying it is possible to win without a single one - it is obviously a better idea to keep them handy, in case you need them. To go in without some sort of backup would be pretty foolish in the competetive scene.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:14 PM
This is one of the interesting posts I've seen on the topic of the meta game in TCGs (vis-a-vis Magic) http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370207/what-i-know-about-magic-the-gathering

Really interesting article filled with droves of knowledge, thank you very much!

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 02:21 PM
With a name like HEX, there should be six colors!

Maybe that's the big secret?

And all the talk about MTG similarities, I really see HEX as taking the ease and customibility of TCG design MTG heralded and actually taking it digital - something WOTC has failed to do. WOTC really can't (and shouldn't) take MTG that deep digitally due to the paper game.

HEX can explore card design in places MTG can't.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:28 PM
Maybe that's the big secret?

And all the talk about MTG similarities, I really see HEX as taking the ease and customibility of TCG design MTG heralded and actually taking it digital - something WOTC has failed to do. WOTC really can't (and shouldn't) take MTG that deep digitally due to the paper game.

HEX can explore card design in places MTG can't.

Also it means there is no reason they can't add a sixth color post-release (set 2 or first expansion or something)

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 02:51 PM
Also it means there is no reason they can't add a sixth color post-release (set 2 or first expansion or something)

Yep, one big reason I became a backer was because I was excited to see what design walls HEX can break.

Devaux
05-11-2013, 04:41 PM
Oh, I didn't say counterspells aren't needed, just saying it is possible to win without a single one - it is obviously a better idea to keep them handy, in case you need them. To go in without some sort of backup would be pretty foolish in the competetive scene.

Right I got you. I'm just pointing out that thats why counterspells are important. Creatures are east to deal with. its other instants that you need help interacting with.