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FrogSplash
05-11-2013, 01:13 PM
I grew up with Pokemon TCG and MTG, but I've been weary of stepping foot in the digital TCG realm as I'm skeptical of how digital booster packs are assembled. Can anyone give me a rundown on how digital boosters are assembled?

Back in the day, if I saw a kid with a Charizard, he had to have gotten it from a booster (or card shop, whatever) but with online stuff, I feel like there's no guarantee that all cards are available. For some reason I just fear being shafted.

But I do really want to get into this game, so someone calm my anxieties please.

Kami
05-11-2013, 01:18 PM
From what we've heard, it'd be roughly:

11 Common
3 Uncommon
1 Rare/Legendary

As for the actual algorithms... that's anyone's guess.

And some sort of 'bonus' for every 15 card booster pack.

Erebus
05-11-2013, 01:20 PM
All PVP cards are available via boosters (except alternate art).

Each Booster is $2 and contain 15 cards.
11-commons
3-uncommons
1-rare or Epic (the ratio of Epics to rare hasn't been stated that I know of. But in WoW TCG it was about 1:10 or 1:20)

Kami
05-11-2013, 01:28 PM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23053

FrogSplash
05-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Thanks for the replies. My question was more aimed at the technicality though, which I'm guessing the exact specifics are some sort of top secret, but like are the the Boosters pre-formed, and you unlock a random set of predetermined cards? Or is it randomly generated every time you purchase a new pack?

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 01:49 PM
I imagine it would be randomly generated. Would it matter anyway? If they included every single variation of card combinations, you would have approximately the same chance either way.

houjix
05-11-2013, 01:57 PM
They will probably run as if it were a physical print run to ensure there is a real distribution of cards. If it were truly random, you could open up the same 15 cards in every booster and that wouldn't be very fun would it??

Kami
05-11-2013, 01:59 PM
Well, currently we know that each card has its own unique ID ("CID") so I'd imagine boosters and other inventory would be the same.

With RNG and a few other things, I'm sure everything would be unique unless you can work out the algorithm... and even then, they could change it easily.

FrogSplash
05-11-2013, 02:01 PM
I hadn't read about the CID yet, cool. Thanks for all the insight folks.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 02:03 PM
To be fair, that is possible in real life too - only so many combinations are possible, and I have seen people open 2 boosters, only to have 5-6 doubles. It is just not avoidable.

And as long as they do it right, it will feel like a real TCG experience, random or not.

Erebus
05-11-2013, 02:48 PM
I never even thought about the Physical print run aspect.

I know it wouldn't matter in the long run, but I would hate to open a booster with 11 of the same common, especially in draft.

But drafting reminded me of the drafting article, where he mentioned the color spread among the players was about even. So I imagine they have a decent algorithm in place already.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:54 PM
They will probably run as if it were a physical print run to ensure there is a real distribution of cards. If it were truly random, you could open up the same 15 cards in every booster and that wouldn't be very fun would it??

If it was truly random and you opened up a pack with the same 15 cards which (is not possible because of the distribution) but let's ignore that. The chances of getting 15 of the same card would be

1/350 to the 15th power. GOOD LUCK even if it was 11 cards the same it would still be 1/350 to 11nth power. I think you will be ok.

Edit: I was curious so I went to wolframalpha and 1/350 to the 11nth is

1/9,654,915,737,304,687,500,000,000,000

So yeah I think your chances are pretty low.

And this is your chance of getting 4 cards the same (1/350)^4 * (349/350)^7

630,634,881,591,804,949/9,654,915,737,304,687,500,000,000,000

roughly 6.53 x 10^-11 or .00000000653%


Disclaimer:
These are not the exact statistics because I'm not taking into account the fact that there is not 350 common but you can see that even if we subtract the number of rare cards and uncommon there will be, the shear number of cards that there are will make it almost impossible to have that many duplicates. (At least in one pack)

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:05 PM
Well that's the extreme, but you've done the math wrong anyways.

There's 350 cards in a set, but there tends to be more unique rares and uncommon then commons, not to mention legendaries.

Let's say there's only 50 individual commons, so it's only 1/50 chance of getting a specific common. But if it's any common? Then the probably is more likely. Or similiar commons?

But how many is too many of duplicates? Especially in draft. If you say 5 or more of the same common in a pack is bad, then the probably gets even more likely. Till the point its entirely probable.

I'd hate to be in a draft, drafting Shin'hare one pack, then open the second pack with 7 or 8 Shin'hare commons.

Mehlo
05-11-2013, 03:11 PM
I think this is a bit silly, it's not like virtual packs is a new thing. Mtgo does it, lots of random online games do it, and honestly, it'll probably be more random then physical, since i've seen the same commons in the same order in a couple of sequential magic packs

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:14 PM
Mehlo that's because they do print runs. Cards are ran off in groups, and cut and packaged together.

It's actually a good thing for digital packs to be LESS then completely random, this is mostly from a draft and sealed perspective.

Mehlo
05-11-2013, 03:17 PM
I would assume something along the line of the algorithim saying no two copies of the same card, and possibly an overall variable that makes the odds of cards in packs slightly vary compared to the ammount that have been opened, evening out the variance over time.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:19 PM
There are booster randomizer on draft website, I'm sure a game like HEX will have a good booster randomizer system

~

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:22 PM
Yeah, I'm not worried about them doing it right, but I had never thought into the scope of the algorithm.

Beyond just making sure there's not doubles of a card you need to make sure there is a good range of variation among the Gem types, among the races, Troops versus non-troops. All these things affect the draft/sealed format, as well as a starting player's deck construction ability.

I think Cryptozoic has this underhand, but the it definitely goes beyond just a simple RNG.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 03:25 PM
I'm assuming the distribution of common cards is looking more like 150-200 cards. And even to have 1 card that appears once in all 8 packs will be (1/150or200) ^ 8.... And I mean you can do this with all the possibilities. If I assume the number of shinhare are an equal distribution of 1/6 of the cards then 1/6 of 150 = 25.

Then the probability in on pack that you will get a certain number of them is

11Cx * 1/6^x * 5/6^(11-x) where x is the number of cards you want shinhare to be in a single pack. Then since the packs are independent of one another raise that formula to the power of however many packs are going to be in play so for instance 8.

So if you want me to calculate a probability I will np.

Edit: of course this is all assuming true probability (which even computers can't simulate but it's still how people do things)

mauvebutterfly
05-11-2013, 03:29 PM
There's 350 cards in a set, but there tends to be more unique rares and uncommon then commons, not to mention legendaries.


Is this true across TCGs? I've played Magic and A Game of Thrones, and I'm pretty sure that the former was an even split between rarities. I know for a fact that the latter did this. I'm not sure how legendary cards will mix this up, but I'd be surprised if commons didn't make up about one third of the set.

I'm starting to think I misunderstood what you posted.

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:45 PM
I understated the total number of commons.

And the comment was, not if the probably was probable, but possible.

So we go 150 commons, add up the chances for 5-11 of the same, then multiply by the number of boosters open in a day in this game. We start to approach actual probability.

Just cause some is highly unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen. I mean the probability of me existing is like 1 in 400 trillion, but I'm still here :)

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:53 PM
I mean the probability of me existing is like 1 in 400 trillion, but I'm still here :)

I got to meet a 1 out of 400 trillions (via forums ok) and I never won the 1 out of 100 millions lottery ;(

I'm so unlucky

~

Showsni
05-11-2013, 03:54 PM
The question about digital "print runs" is quite interesting; it does have possible gameplay implications, especially in Draft. I've drafted Magic quite a lot in the past, and you'd often be able to recognise segments of a print run (mostly in the commons section) coming up time and again. More dedicated players would even memorise the specific print runs, so that when passed a pack they could spot a print run with a card missing and know exactly what their neighbour was drafting (which is why you should shuffle your bosoter before passing it on!). As well as ensuring a fairly even spread of commons, then, print runs can also add a kind of strategy in themselves.

I don't know how most online TCGs currently manage this, whether they attempt to replicate the paper print run or just use their own RNG (the Pokémon TCGO, I know, had a problem with their pack randomisation when Boundaries Crossed was first released - the reverse holo card in every pack was replaced with a card at the same rarity level as the rare, so any pack with an ultra rare card in would have two ultra rares in!) but since Hex has no physical print run to copy I'd assume they'll just use an RNG...

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 04:02 PM
Pure RNG wouldn't work for draft.

There needs to be some kinda balance between colours/types etc...

~

Blare731
05-11-2013, 04:37 PM
I understated the total number of commons.

And the comment was, not if the probably was probable, but possible.

So we go 150 commons, add up the chances for 5-11 of the same, then multiply by the number of boosters open in a day in this game. We start to approach actual probability.

Just cause some is highly unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen. I mean the probability of me existing is like 1 in 400 trillion, but I'm still here :)

Ok even so, if the chances of something happening are 1/lets say 5 billion were the true proportions of getting the same pack of cards in a row. That doesn't mean that if you open 5 billion backs you will get two in a row. It's an average essentially.

Take for example a quarter, 1/2 chances. On average u will get 1/2 but when trying to go for tails you may get 3 or 4 heads in a row. So yeah at some maybe... like really really unlikely, you will get two packs that are similar but the odds of it happening are so slim that you shouldn't worry about it.


The question about digital "print runs" is quite interesting; it does have possible gameplay implications, especially in Draft. I've drafted Magic quite a lot in the past, and you'd often be able to recognise segments of a print run (mostly in the commons section) coming up time and again. More dedicated players would even memorise the specific print runs, so that when passed a pack they could spot a print run with a card missing and know exactly what their neighbour was drafting (which is why you should shuffle your bosoter before passing it on!). As well as ensuring a fairly even spread of commons, then, print runs can also add a kind of strategy in themselves.

I don't know how most online TCGs currently manage this, whether they attempt to replicate the paper print run or just use their own RNG (the Pokémon TCGO, I know, had a problem with their pack randomisation when Boundaries Crossed was first released - the reverse holo card in every pack was replaced with a card at the same rarity level as the rare, so any pack with an ultra rare card in would have two ultra rares in!) but since Hex has no physical print run to copy I'd assume they'll just use an RNG...

True this would make it easier to know that the cards will be distributed correctly but at the same time ensure that yes you could get two packs that are very similar much more easily.

Jinuyr
05-11-2013, 06:01 PM
Either is strictly random or skewed in such as way that the distribution of cards is closer to what they should be in terms of ratio. The answer to either question is likely never going to be known to us unfortunately.