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humblerain
05-11-2013, 02:14 PM
With this kick starter and all these extra stuff they get...

I feel like this game will turn into some P2P type of game...

Kami
05-11-2013, 02:16 PM
Unlikely if the meta-game was balanced properly to begin with. And as for the PvE aspect, well, it's PvE... you're primarily playing against the AI with other players.

PvP play will be primarily drafts for the most part. In other words, you have no idea what you're getting for a 'deck'.

In Constructed formats, maybe some balance issues but that's typical for any TCG.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:17 PM
Nope, as a kickstarter you are getting nothing over other people in terms of PvP. The only PvP things you are getting are PvP cards you normally can get but these have special art. Most of the OP stuff from KS is on the PvE side.

humblerain
05-11-2013, 02:18 PM
Ah right... Thanks for the information and what you do mean by "You have no idea what you're getting for a 'deck'."

Kami
05-11-2013, 02:20 PM
Drafts are games where boosters are opened and shared amongst players just before the tournament. You have no idea what's in those packs so you have no idea what kind of deck you would be making prior to starting.

humblerain
05-11-2013, 02:21 PM
But that doesn't know the best player or who can play a deck the best.

That is like based on luck really....

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 02:22 PM
But that doesn't know the best player or who can play a deck the best.

That is like based on luck really....

Luck and being a good deck designer on the fly. That's part of the fun of Draft/Sealed formats.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:26 PM
But that doesn't know the best player or who can play a deck the best.

That is like based on luck really....

It is a little bit of luck sure, but since you are picking the card out of the booster that is in your hand it is more of a strategy to how you go about picking cards. Whether that is going straight for your strat or trying to deny other people's combo etc.

humblerain
05-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Is this game going in beat on sept 2013?

Erebus
05-11-2013, 02:34 PM
That's the planned Beta release, yes.

Socks4615
05-11-2013, 02:35 PM
These are the proposed tournament types, just so you know: http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

And yeah, I believe beta is supposed to be September of this year.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 02:37 PM
These are the proposed tournament types, just so you know: http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

And yeah, I believe beta is supposed to be September of this year.

Yeah true not all the formats will be draft, but also like I said before KS backers are not getting anything PvP related that is exclusive other than a guarantied card with different art that everyone else can still get. So functionally nothing unbalanced.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 02:41 PM
Pretty sure the definition of a TCG is a pay to play/win type of game.

Erebus
05-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Jugan I think the issue was whether Kickstarters would get an advantage over the average players.

Yes a TCG is a play to win game, but it's an equal opportunity one.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 02:47 PM
Of course the kickstarters will get an advantage over the average player. You get a ton of boosters at a lot cheaper rate.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 02:47 PM
You get discount, you dont get more power

~

Jugan
05-11-2013, 02:50 PM
And thus, an advantage.

Mehlo
05-11-2013, 02:51 PM
No, not an advantage, a cheaper, earlier start. And that will filter down to lower overall card prices at first

Erebus
05-11-2013, 02:52 PM
An advantage that can eventually be made up, even if someone has to spend more money.

But if I got an exclusive PVP card, then there's nothing you can do to catch up to me if you didn't KS. I think everyone agrees that would be really bad.

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 02:53 PM
So I'd have an advantage in MTG because I bought more cards off of my friend?

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:01 PM
An advantage that can eventually be made up, even if someone has to spend more money.

But if I got an exclusive PVP card, then there's nothing you can do to catch up to me if you didn't KS. I think everyone agrees that would be really bad.

Balance in PvP is the main concern of CZE.
You only get Alternate Art cards from Kickstarter

~

mauvebutterfly
05-11-2013, 03:22 PM
The only thing I'd really have a problem with is PvP exclusives as a kickstarter bonus, and I'm glad that CZE has steered away from them.

Even if the tier above mine got 4 copies of every rare at release, I'd know that I could up my tier if I wanted. Once the game goes live, it's a moot point, since all those rares are still available in some form through boosters, trading, tournament prizes, or whatever else.

If I was coming in to an established TCG a couple of years down the line, I wouldn't care about other people having larger collections than me as long as I knew that I would eventually be able to get all the cards I need for my deck.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 03:23 PM
Do you want to debate this?

Yes, as a kickstarter, you have an inherent advantage in several different ways. First, you got a significant number of cards at a significantly cheaper price. Having a lower initial investment cost is the definition of an advantage. Second, you get exclusive PvE cards that can only be obtained via auction house or kickstart. Having access to inclusive cards that can further your gameplay in the PvE realm is another advantage over someone who doesn't have them. Furthermore, a kickstarter gets early access beta.

So you get...
1. Lower starting cost
2. Exclusive cards
3. Early access

If that's not the definition of an advantage, I don't know what is.

Can the advantage be made up? Of course. But it's still an advantage. If there was no advantage to being a kickstarter, then why be one?

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:24 PM
I'm pretty sure there will be aggro/burn decks buyable from singles in the AH for $20 or so.

Even in MtG legacy (where most decks costs $1+k) there are burn decks that are very cheap (like $100)

~

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:25 PM
If that's not the definition of an advantage, I don't know what is.
?

From a balance/pvp perspective it's only discount.
That doesn't mean the world champion or #1 ranked player will be a Kickstarter

~

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:27 PM
I think the debate is a HARD advantage versus a SOFT advantage.

PvE is very secular, and that's why they've allowed bigger and harder bonus in that arena.

Let's look at the RAID leader bonus. +1 Starting hand, and the heal/damage prevention constant.

If they gave this as a PVP exclusive, then only those players with that bonus would be able to ascend to the top of the PVP ladder. Nothing a new player does will be able to overcome this power curve.

The bonus of Kickstarter aren't that different from things I've done as a physical TCG player, buying in bulk to get cheaper cards, getting in pre-release tournies for cheaper and early access to cards, etc. But nothing in the Kickstarter gives me an advantage that CAN'T be overcome.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 03:28 PM
From a balance/pvp perspective it's only discount.
That doesn't mean the world champion or #1 ranked player will be a Kickstarter

~

I didn't realize that's what I insinuated.


I think the debate is a HARD advantage versus a SOFT advantage.
I think the problem is some people don't realize what the definition of an "advantage" is.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:37 PM
Advantage is an edge that helps you achieve something.
Here the advantage is supposedly lost for anyone else who's not a kickstarter.

We get PvP discount and PvE ownage.
which is fine balance wise.

~

Blare731
05-11-2013, 03:37 PM
I didn't realize that's what I insinuated.


I think the problem is some people don't realize what the definition of an "advantage" is.

Ok so we get in what you call an advantage (nothing different from other TCG as stated by Erebus), in this way why is this a problem for you?


Second the PvP exclusive cards give no advantage because they are exclusive. They are just art. The only thing that is advantages is that you now know you are getting 1+ of them right away. Instead of having to hope for them in boosters.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Btw, I'm looking to buy 2 AA Extinction :D

~

Erebus
05-11-2013, 03:49 PM
Blaze I don't think he has a problem.

The reason I'm arguing, is that he's talking about player advantage, but the OP is talking specifically about imbalanced.

In my opinion, imbalance is something that can't be overcome, where as player advantage can be.

Fireblast
05-11-2013, 03:51 PM
In my opinion, imbalance is something that can't be overcome, where as player advantage can be.

That's my point of view too

~

Blare731
05-11-2013, 04:27 PM
Blaze I don't think he has a problem.

The reason I'm arguing, is that he's talking about player advantage, but the OP is talking specifically about imbalanced.

In my opinion, imbalance is something that can't be overcome, where as player advantage can be.

Blare damnit! lol but I agree, it just seemed like he was saying that the advantage makes it unbalanced is all.

karmacappa
05-11-2013, 04:31 PM
Draft is very little luck. It has a lot more to do with being able to coherently design a deck from a changing array of cards. There is also the idea of counter-drafting. It's pretty advanced, but suffice it to say that draft is generally considered the apex of skill and with the least amount of pay to win involved.

Erebus
05-11-2013, 04:32 PM
I apologize, Blare :)

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 04:35 PM
To be fair, I think a fair few kickstarters will be saving a # of boosters for drafting. I think that should slightly limit the explosion of cards at the start, and a lot of the more hardcore players will hold onto at least 4 of every card (in case they prove to have some sort of PvP value down the line).

And will it hurt to have a base amount of cards to start the economy off? Better something rather than nothing.

karmacappa
05-11-2013, 04:37 PM
Do you want to debate this?

Yes, as a kickstarter, you have an inherent advantage in several different ways. First, you got a significant number of cards at a significantly cheaper price. Having a lower initial investment cost is the definition of an advantage. Second, you get exclusive PvE cards that can only be obtained via auction house or kickstart. Having access to inclusive cards that can further your gameplay in the PvE realm is another advantage over someone who doesn't have them. Furthermore, a kickstarter gets early access beta.

So you get...
1. Lower starting cost
2. Exclusive cards
3. Early access

If that's not the definition of an advantage, I don't know what is.

Can the advantage be made up? Of course. But it's still an advantage. If there was no advantage to being a kickstarter, then why be one?

You can't say there is an advantage in PVE, as it is player vs environment. That is not a competition. I've seen a lot of people that complained about the things you did, they were mostly people that were looking for excuses for why they lost. X person spent more than me. Y person has been playing longer. Z person plays with his friends all the time, I work for a living.
In contests against other players, it really comes down to how well you understand the game and work with the resources you have. Understand this before you try to say something arrogant like, "Do you want to debate this?"

Jugan
05-11-2013, 06:16 PM
Ok so we get in what you call an advantage (nothing different from other TCG as stated by Erebus), in this way why is this a problem for you?


Second the PvP exclusive cards give no advantage because they are exclusive. They are just art. The only thing that is advantages is that you now know you are getting 1+ of them right away. Instead of having to hope for them in boosters.

You just admitted there is an advantage. I don't care that kickstarts have an advantage over other people, i'm just simply proving that they have an advantage. It seems like several other people in the thread have already figured that out; go read through again, and you can see that others have already proven and agreed with what I've been saying.

I really like the ignorance at work here. I've not complained once about any feature of the kickstart, I've merely stated that there is an advantage for them (and rightfully so). Furthermore, anyone who argues that a person who gets early access to something has no advantage whatsoever over someone that doesn't needs to look up the definition of "advantage". The simple fact that anyone who gets early access to the game has an advantage over people who don't have early access proves that the people who kickstart the game have and advantage over people who don't. Even in PvE, you're wrong. People who purchase a PvE tier reward have an advantage over people who don't. People who get 100% more loot drops have an advantage over people who don't get 100% more loot drops. People who get to run the dungeons in beta have an advantage over people who don't get to run the dungeons in beta.

Simple logic is simple.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 06:26 PM
In contests against other players, it really comes down to how well you understand the game and work with the resources you have.

I just want to highlight this.
1. Kickstarters get early access to beta.
2. Kickstarters get resources (boosters) for cheaper.

And you're saying kickstarters have no starting advantage over people who don't kickstart. Can you please read what you wrote?

Jinuyr
05-11-2013, 07:17 PM
It's an advantage depending on how you define the word. Some definitions are more severe than others.

I see it as this... If you went to your local store and bought out all of the boosters packs for a new expansion the day they come out and bring them to a constructed tournament later that night before anyone else could buy them, do they have an advantage? Maybe. That player got to sit down and see what all of the cards were, think of various card synergies that could be effective and make a deck before most people even knew what they were.

It sounds harsh, but in reality, the cards are only as good as the player.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 07:30 PM
You just admitted there is an advantage. I don't care that kickstarts have an advantage over other people, i'm just simply proving that they have an advantage. It seems like several other people in the thread have already figured that out; go read through again, and you can see that others have already proven and agreed with what I've been saying.

I really like the ignorance at work here. I've not complained once about any feature of the kickstart, I've merely stated that there is an advantage for them (and rightfully so). Furthermore, anyone who argues that a person who gets early access to something has no advantage whatsoever over someone that doesn't needs to look up the definition of "advantage". The simple fact that anyone who gets early access to the game has an advantage over people who don't have early access proves that the people who kickstart the game have and advantage over people who don't. Even in PvE, you're wrong. People who purchase a PvE tier reward have an advantage over people who don't. People who get 100% more loot drops have an advantage over people who don't get 100% more loot drops. People who get to run the dungeons in beta have an advantage over people who don't get to run the dungeons in beta.

Simple logic is simple.

I don't see need for hostility

I read this whole thread before I first posted, just like I do with every thread. And I've read most of the threads here.

I wasn't being ignorant, you were when you didn't read what this thread is about. It is about PvP not PvE, and there is no advantage in PvP you get that people at release won't get. Or rather that a normal TCG doesn't offer before there normal set releases. So the discussion is not whether you get an advantage in PvE, because yes you clearly do. But that doesn't affect the PvP balancing.

Xenavire
05-11-2013, 07:32 PM
I also have to say, with no NDA, almost every card will probably be plastered on a Wiki somewhere before the game actually launches, so other than having a feel for the game ahead of time and having a larger pool of cards, kickstarters will have no advantage over a player who was dedicated to learning the game ahead of time.

It is something of an advantage, but they could always go buy a ton of boosters themselves the minute it launches, and then they are in the same position as kickstarters.

Barring a few PvE cards, of course (alternate art PvP cards could be pulled as normal art versions, so moot point there, it just eliminates the luck factor.)

Kami
05-11-2013, 07:33 PM
And not all cards are available in Beta either as they've hinted.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 09:23 PM
@Blare: That's not true, because TCGs release pre-releases all the time. And guess what. The people who play in the pre-release have an advantage over the people who wait until the release events. And guess what. The people that study the full spoiler have an advantage over the people who didn't study the full spoiler at the pre-release events. Why can't you just admit that you were wrong, as other people have pointed out?

@Xenavire: That's fundamentally false as well, because someone who gets to play 200+ hours in a game will have an advantage over someone who has never played it at all. Period. Furthermore, the kickstarter who spent $120 for $200+ worth of product is still at an advantage over the person who spent $200 for $200 worth of product. Why? Because the kickstarter invested less resources. It's really simple logic, really.

I mean, if I can't help you to understand the definition of "advantage", then either I'm doing a really shitty job or you're beyond helping.

To sum:
1. Kickstarters have a fundamental advantage over non-kickstarters (Lower need for resource investment, early access)
2. nobody is saying this advantage can't be mitigated over time
3. It's more beneficial to be a kickstarter; so why wouldn't you be one?

#datlogic

Blare731
05-11-2013, 09:42 PM
@Blare: That's not true, because TCGs release pre-releases all the time. And guess what. The people who play in the pre-release have an advantage over the people who wait until the release events. And guess what. The people that study the full spoiler have an advantage over the people who didn't study the full spoiler at the pre-release events. Why can't you just admit that you were wrong, as other people have pointed out?

Ok it is an advantage BUT I'm saying that it DOES NOT mean that it is any less balanced.

Because the only scenario you have is less information which is available to everyone not just kickstarters.

And as far as playing in the beta, people will have all the time in the world at release to play with their cards because you don't have to compete right away.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 09:44 PM
Ok it is an advantage BUT I'm saying that it DOES NOT mean that it is any less balanced.

If a pro player is playing against a noob and beats him, it wasn't because the game was un-balanced. It was because the knowledge of the pro player had helped him win. And it was the fact that the KS does not make the game un-balanced is what I was arguing.

Please show me where I mentioned that the game was fundamentally imbalanced, and I will gladly write, sign, and post a picture of an apology letter I was express ship to your address. Thanks.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 09:47 PM
Read it again, I changed my original post because I admittedly had a moment of insanity and just started saying stuff. It's starting to get late xD



To sum:
1. Kickstarters have a fundamental advantage over non-kickstarters (Lower need for resource investment, early access)
2. nobody is saying this advantage can't be mitigated over time
3. It's more beneficial to be a kickstarter; so why wouldn't you be one?
#datlogic

And so this thread is about if KS is unbalanced in PvP. You haven't said anything about whether or not you think it is balanced, so why are you arguing here, anyway?

Jugan
05-11-2013, 09:52 PM
Read it again, I changed my original post because I admittedly had a moment of insanity and just started saying stuff. It's starting to get late xD

Of course, over time, any advantage gained by playing the beta will be mitigated. However, it's important that people understand that having knowledge and having experience are two different things, and the latter is generally a lot more valuable (given that knowledge also grows with experience), hence the term "playtesting". If I gave two mechanics a manual on how to repair a jet, and one of those had repaired jets for the past 6 months, the one who repaired jets for the past 6 months will obviously be a more effective mechanic on repairing jets.

All I'm proving is that there is an advantage. Seems like I've done that for everyone except Xenavire. You guys have a great weekend now :)

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 09:54 PM
I typically suck at playing TCGs, so everybody has an advantage over me whether or not they have Kickstarter bonuses. Hell, a new player that just signed up would probably best me with their bound starter deck.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 09:54 PM
Of course, over time, any advantage gained by playing the beta will be mitigated. However, it's important that people understand that having knowledge and having experience are two different things, and the latter is generally a lot more valuable (given that knowledge also grows with experience), hence the term "playtesting". If I gave two mechanics a manual on how to repair a jet, and one of those had repaired jets for the past 6 months, the one who repaired jets for the past 6 months will obviously be a more effective mechanic on repairing jets.

All I'm proving is that there is an advantage. Seems like I've done that for everyone except Xenavire. You guys have a great weekend now :)

They haven't commented on how long the beta will be and it doesn't say anywhere that they won't be inviting every to it at some point so, you never know. It could be a moot point anyway.

Jugan
05-11-2013, 10:12 PM
I typically suck at playing TCGs, so everybody has an advantage over me whether or not they have Kickstarter bonuses. Hell, a new player that just signed up would probably best me with their bound starter deck.

That's okay C-Drive. The PvE content looks fucking awesome, and I can't wait to play the dungeons. :)

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 10:34 PM
That's okay C-Drive. The PvE content looks fucking awesome, and I can't wait to play the dungeons. :)

I'll probably spend a lot of time on the PVE side of things on those days when I don't feel like losing.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 10:35 PM
I'll probably spend a lot of time on the PVE side of things on those days when I don't feel like losing.

Oh come on that is not the spirit for a Pro Player! If you fail, try, try and try again? I think half the fun is figuring out what decks work and how you will be getting cards during play anyway.

C-Drive
05-11-2013, 10:43 PM
Oh come on that is not the spirit for a Pro Player! If you fail, try, try and try again? I think half the fun is figuring out what decks work and how you will be getting cards during play anyway.

Hey, I felt guilty getting the "Pro Player" tier. I was thinking - "This isn't me AT ALL." - but free weekly drafts? Sign me up.

I'm personally more interested in the PvP side of things anyways, though I'm guessing the PVE claws will make themselves better known in me once the game gets going.

Blare731
05-11-2013, 10:46 PM
Hey, I felt guilty getting the "Pro Player" tier. I was thinking - "This isn't me AT ALL." - but free weekly drafts? Sign me up.

I'm personally more interested in the PvP side of things anyways, though I'm guessing the PVE claws will make themselves better known in me once the game gets going.

To be honest I'm probably more excited for the PvE part of things (reason I really wanna upgrade to GK) but I knew I was getting pro to make sure I could compete without spending extra money on a regular basis and getting cards on a regular basis.

WWKnight
05-12-2013, 04:47 AM
I consider myself a competitive player, but im more excited about the PvE aspect than the PvP. I find it hard to get excited about gameplay here, cause I still just see it as magic with a new coat of paint :(

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 05:09 AM
Jugan, I made a single post, commenting on mitigating the effect of the advantage, I never said there was no advantage. I personally have an advantage over players who never played MTG, because the mechanics and flow of the game are familiar to me - that doesn't mean that those effects could not be mitigated. A player could start learning MTG right now, and they would have familiar ground to work with at release

Now take your personal vendetta against me, and leave it behind, because I refuse to fight such a conceited person who does not value the opinions of others, or tries to put words in their mouths.

C-Drive
05-12-2013, 05:16 AM
I consider myself a competitive player, but im more excited about the PvE aspect than the PvP. I find it hard to get excited about gameplay here, cause I still just see it as magic with a new coat of paint :(

I see that coat of paint as well, and the digital possibilities are of course interesting, but mainly it's the fact the interface (and pricing) trumps MTGO.

SriSyadasti
05-12-2013, 06:10 AM
I'm actually pretty concerned about the PvE imbalance, which currently it seems like is going to be huge. I've never been a big mmo player but from what I understand there's typically lots of competition even with PVE content, racing to be the first to complete challenges, collect achievements and here I guess to post the best arena records (however that's going to work), there has also been talk of PvP tournaments which allow PvE cards. Currently in the PvE portion of the game we have a Black Lotus, a start in play semi-Necropotence (the resource cost nerfs it a lot, but still preserves the core effect) and several other game changing start in play effects, all of which we have been promised there will be no way (other than trading with us) for any new player to get, we've also been told that cards won't be banned or errated unless it's deemed absolutely necessary, note these are specifically card effects that have been banned or restricted in every mtgo format for being too OP even for legacy. I'd expect that most if not all major in-game accomplishments will go to kickstarters or players with access to the kickstarter advantages, I see this being a real obstacle to the game gathering any kind of strong PvE powergaming community. This will limit the depth of PvE content, mean there's less reason for people to keep playing after completing the initial campaign, cut down on the desirability of PvE cards, equips and gold (and so marginalize a massive section of the game economy), and ultimately hurt Hex's ability to grow into something truly huge rather than be just another minor blip in MMO history.


Some ways to approach this would be:

Separate PvE cards into a core and a novelty playset (which could be added to with some truly ridiculous effects as the game expands, think Unglued and the like) the latter of which would only be usable in some parts of the game. Would upset some kickstarters as it seems to significantly reduce the value of their reward packages (though it in fact may ultimately increase value by helping to bring in more players and extend lifetime of the game).

Allow insane power creep so that equally powerful effects are available to players who come later as well, could be fun to begin with, the fact that all PvE cards and equipment can ultimately be obtained for free by playing the game might counter the usual insane prices that blatantly OP'ed cards tend to sell for but still some risk of game becoming more pay to win. Also could just make for a more straightforward game, revolving around combos and luck of draw more than card interaction, something I for one wouldn't like to see.

Just dismiss the PvE portion as secondary to the PvP part of the game. Speaking as someone primarily interested in PvP I think this would be a very bad move. A digital only card game is a great idea and clearly opens up a lot of interesting design options, and the client looks pretty slick so far, but so much of this game's concept seems to revolve on the PvE side and making it a real MMO rather than a CCG with a bit of a campaign tacked on as a glorified tutorial. This is the part of the game that's going to draw in new players who perhaps wouldn't normally play this kind of game, or would be interested if they didn't have such a reputation as being black holes for money. It's also what this game has that other digital only card games (Infinity Wars, Sol Forge, Hearthstone so far, expect others) don't, and will play a huge part in its success or failure.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 06:16 AM
Spectral Lotus will be tradeable, you get one a day...
We've already speculated they'll be worth like 50 cents

Also the Lotus Garden will be KS only, they could implement ways to get Spectral Lotus (IG gold like WoW consumables for serious raiding/farming/crafting)

~

Jugan
05-12-2013, 06:49 AM
Spectral Lotus will be tradeable, you get one a day...
We've already speculated they'll be worth like 50 cents

Also the Lotus Garden will be KS only, they could implement ways to get Spectral Lotus (IG gold like WoW consumables for serious raiding/farming/crafting)

~

I thought they specifically mentioned that kickstart cards would never be remade?

WWKnight
05-12-2013, 06:53 AM
They wont. That was a promise they made. I dont think they'd break it without hell breaking lose

SriSyadasti
05-12-2013, 06:58 AM
I think the point is that the kickstarter exclusive is the Spectral Garden which generates Spectral Lotuses, the Spectral Lotuses themselves are not the exclusive. And it is a very good point, except:

"Once our Kickstarter campaign ends, there will never, ever, EVER be another way to get a Spectral Lotus. Period."

("Except, of course, for the Auction House.")
There will never be a deck that could not be improved by 4x Spectral Lotus, even if all they're used for is the free draw at 0 cost so they don't get expended, (incidentally something I've been wondering about is what happens if you copy them then use the ability on the copy, do you still lose the card after the game?). So every new player will either pay us a Lotus tax or make suboptimal decks, and the best decks will involve actually using the Lotuses. Also the raid leader bonus could be very significant, and that can't even be traded for (unless you count selling off the whole account on ebay)

Jugan
05-12-2013, 06:59 AM
They wont. That was a promise they made. I dont think they'd break it without hell breaking lose

Yeah, but on the flip side I suppose companies have been known to break promises in the past. But I believe CZE gets the benefit of the doubt in this case.

On a side note, I'm really not too worried about the game itself because of how it follows MTG rules pretty closely... you're pretty much guaranteed a working game by mimicking a successful business model. That way you don't have to worry about crazy rules interactions under a new system, you can just look at how the system you're modeling yours after deals with problems. That said, I'm definitely looking forward to the dungeon crawling aspect. Raids sound fun, but I hope they're not carte "fun".

SriSyadasti
05-12-2013, 07:04 AM
Following MTG rules closely, in fact mimicking a successful business model in general, does not guarantee success, because you will then be in direct competition with the originators of that successful business model who already have the advantage of being established in the market. You always have to add something extra.

EDIT: Sorry, think I missed the point of what you said. Yeah, the game mechanics in general should work pretty well. I think they may be a bit overly optimistic though thinking that they can avoid bans and errata, given that's something that mtg still runs into on a regular basis even with all their playtesting. Just a side effect of trying to think up new & interesting card effects and leaving them open to be combined in a wide variety of ways. Only way they could avoid it would be to avoid coming up with any innovative card mechanics of their own and just lift existing ones from mtg, which would be lame.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 07:24 AM
Lotus is PvE only, and while it is an amazing card, I doubt it will ever be vital to getting further in the game.

Certian players (like hardcore raiders) may fund us and take some of our lotuses, but that might be rare - it is a wait and see kind of situation. Maybe the cards will have less value because you can't invest in it?

karmacappa
05-12-2013, 08:17 AM
I just want to highlight this.
1. Kickstarters get early access to beta.
2. Kickstarters get resources (boosters) for cheaper.

And you're saying kickstarters have no starting advantage over people who don't kickstart. Can you please read what you wrote?

The overriding factor, as I said, is how well you understand the game (and this is VERY different from experience) and work with the resources you have (which has nothing to do with how much you have, but rather how you manage it). I used to be a competitive M:tG player, and I can assure you that Mr Moneybags who has been playing forever still loses to a SKILLED player. What you're saying are the cop out excuses that came out of 2nd rate players.