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BlackRoger
05-12-2013, 10:11 AM
I am a bit confused about the pricing model for stuff in game.

As I understand it, pve stuff is pretty much only gained by doing dungeons and raids, or other pve content, and is usefull only for pve.

Pvp stuff on the other hand can only be gained by opening card packs and drafts, which both cost real money.

Why would they make the pve stuff completely free and the pvp stuff only for real money, this doesn't make sense to me.
This feels like 2 completely different games with completely different pricing models.
Am I missing something?

BKCshah
05-12-2013, 10:15 AM
Nope, I'd say that you have it correct -- with the exception that there is an auction house, so a way (likely extremely expensive) that you could trade PvE stuff for PvP.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 10:16 AM
Not really. They draw players in with the promise of free stuff, hook them to the gameplay, and offer them PvP at a later time - it makes sense. Plus those who want a free to play version can still enjoy a full game, and stimulate the AH, which benifits those paying.

It is win-win overall.

Fuzii
05-12-2013, 10:18 AM
Well you are missing constructed deck dueling I suppose. Pvp and should be completely free for 1v1 dueling. Cost entry fee for tournaments, cause they have prizes... There will probably be ranked and unranked 1v1 duels for free... Just don't expect to earn ma y cards doing that. More for love of the game.

Blare731
05-12-2013, 10:18 AM
It is because the f2p PvE side of it brings in people because well hell it's free.

Then when you want to start competing then its just like any other TCG where yeah it does cost money to compete and play. But casual PvP won't and who knows maybe even a ladder system of 1v1's and 2v2's and so on wont cost anything because technically it's still not tournament (event) based PvP.

I think it is a terrific model for both the company and the community.

BKCshah
05-12-2013, 10:22 AM
Well, essentially PvP is a pay 2 play model only imo. PvP cards are obtained through packs. So if you want to play PvP, there will be a cost somewhere along the line to somebody. The exception would be "free for all" PvP games where PvE cards are allowed.

houjix
05-12-2013, 10:22 AM
In addition the PVP stuff gets additional value as it is usable in PVE. So the cards I draft in tournaments will enhance my PVE experience.

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 10:24 AM
Well, essentially PvP is a pay 2 play model only imo. PvP cards are obtained through packs. So if you want to play PvP, there will be a cost somewhere along the line to somebody. The exception would be "free for all" PvP games where PvE cards are allowed.

PvP non tournaments are free to play, although you need to buy cards to do so, but you don't pay everytime you wanna game.
You could also just use your free starter deck

~

BlackRoger
05-12-2013, 10:28 AM
Thx for the answers, it seems my fears have been confirmed then.

I'm just a bit sad there isn't some connection between the 2 aspects of the game, easing our way from pve to pvp.
I'm not a big spender, so I guess if pvp is completely pay to win I will not be diving too strongly into it.


In addition the PVP stuff gets additional value as it is usable in PVE. So the cards I draft in tournaments will enhance my PVE experience.

I'm pretty sure they said in one of the vids that pvp cards are not useable in pve. those are completely separate card sets

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 10:29 AM
PvP is about competition and tournaments rewards, if nobody buys anything, there are no rewards and there is no real interest in the game

~

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 10:31 AM
I feel the same BlackRoger, but there is an AH - you can earn/farm in PvE, and use those profits to buy PvP cards. It is slightly harder, but if you want casual PvP it is more than enough.

Also, supporting the kickstart could help you a lot, if you stay current, and sell your excess cards for premuim currency on the AH.

Blare731
05-12-2013, 10:32 AM
Thx for the answers, it seems my fears have been confirmed then.

I'm just a bit sad there isn't some connection between the 2 aspects of the game, easing our way from pve to pvp.
I'm not a big spender, so I guess if pvp is completely pay to win I will not be diving too strongly into it.



I'm pretty sure they said in one of the vids that pvp cards are not useable in pve. those are completely separate card sets

Also you can get away with buying packs for gold. I'm sure people will be doing this especially people who want to PvP mostly and don't want to take the time to farm PvE content. Then entering in draft tournaments is a minimal fee.

Also that is why I am doing pro tier or GK, I want to be able to compete at least once a week free of charge.

Edit: Or really just an upfront cost for a year that will get me playing whenever for life.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 10:37 AM
There is also a soft sub, where you pay $4 a month and get a booster per week. Very cost efficient.

icyangelus
05-12-2013, 11:01 AM
I'm pretty sure they said in one of the vids that pvp cards are not useable in pve. those are completely separate card sets

Actually it's the other way around PVE cards will not be usable in PVP while PVP cards can be used in PVE.

MugenMusou
05-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Check the post by blare731 where he compiled all q and a from kickstarter.

You can play online against your friend using pve cards. You just cannot use in specific tournament formats. There will probably enough ppl to do unofficial pve tournament if so you desire.

So in addition to single play, it provides online pvp experience for free too just not for competition format where you win pvp prizes. I think its a fair business model in comparison to something like having 10 base fee but u still gave to buy boosters to be competitive or monthly subscription where one may not be able put as much time as others.

sonicgarbage
05-12-2013, 02:36 PM
Well damn. I guess I completely misread the Kickstarter page (and misheard the videos for that matter). I was under the impression that I could collect every card in the game just by playing. And that buying boosters with real money was just a faster means to that end. I have to say I'm not really feeling this game anymore now that I know half of the game will be off-limits to me. Personally I just can't justify paying real money for fake, digital cards. Not really my thing.

Now that I know the whole story I'm contemplating canceling my pledge or at least lowering it.

And I'm not knocking the game or it's developers. I understand why they're doing it this way. It's definitely a good business model. There's plenty of people that are going to eat this up. It's just not my cup of tea.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 02:40 PM
Well, you are not excluded if you can earn premium currency by wisely using the AH - the whole game is open to you then, and you only need to farm PvE a little.

I will be planning to do this too, as well as the soft sub if it gets any more perks.

Blare731
05-12-2013, 02:41 PM
Well damn. I guess I completely misread the Kickstarter page (and misheard the videos for that matter). I was under the impression that I could collect every card in the game just by playing. And that buying boosters with real money was just a faster means to that end. I have to say I'm not really feeling this game anymore now that I know half of the game will be off-limits to me. Personally I just can't justify paying real money for fake, digital cards. Not really my thing.

Now that I know the whole story I'm contemplating canceling my pledge or at least lowering it.

And I'm not knocking the game or it's developers. I understand why they're doing it this way. It's definitely a good business model. There's plenty of people that are going to eat this up. It's just not my cup of tea.

In terms of competing, yeah it's like any other TCG experience. Competing costs money (for at the very least prizes) but as far as you not being able to get boosters. You can, and you will be able to through shear playing (buying them from gold on AH) it will just take a while to probably farm what they cost.

At the very least though, if you want to PvE, then you will have no problem with it by not paying extra.

sonicgarbage
05-12-2013, 02:47 PM
I've got the time to play. Just not the cash. It's always kept me away from getting too involved in the TCG's. Or at least as an adult with bills to pay it has! I get needing to spend money to get into the tournaments that offer prizes and all that too. Not bothered by it. With my skill level though I'll probably stick to casual PVP for the most part.

But you're saying I can pick up cards/boosters on the AH using digital gold I've found/earned through playing PVE? Alright, I'm feeling a little better now.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 02:53 PM
Yeah, that is what we have been told at least. Besides, it is a TCG - with the T there, and nice guildies, you might get along fine never spending a cent. I just hope we foster a great community that sticks around for a long time!

mauvebutterfly
05-12-2013, 03:05 PM
But you're saying I can pick up cards/boosters on the AH using digital gold I've found/earned through playing PVE? Alright, I'm feeling a little better now.

This isn't guaranteed. Basically, this will depend on how other players decide to spend their money. If someone has extra boosters and wants some gold for PvE purposes, they may offer their boosters on the AH. While it's likely that some boosters will be available in this way, I suspect that there will be a lot more demand for them than there is supply. In other words, you'll have to grind a lot to afford the prices. Keep in mind that boosters cost real money, while PvE is free, so everybody wanting to play Hex completely for free but wanting access to the same PvP cards will be doing the same strategy.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 03:10 PM
Thats why I am going to try for King tier - get those lotuses helping me out in difficult times, and maybe going for a soft subscription for the same reason.

nearlysober
05-12-2013, 05:05 PM
From what I've read, you'll be able to do both PVE & PVP for free... With some things to keep in mind:
1) PVP tourneys with prizes will have a fee, just like "real life"
2) if you want to be successful at competitive PVP, you'll need tbuy booster or cards, just like "real life"

WWKnight
05-12-2013, 10:54 PM
I forsee boosters and tickets to be a psuedo currency on the AH. I for one know I will be selling a few of my extra boosters on the AH for gold to help out the PvE players. Im not really sure what Gold will be used for, but *shrug* I have MORE than enough boosters coming at me!

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 06:06 AM
To me here are the pros/cons of Digital TCG vs IRL TCG :
Pros :
- you can play whenever you want
- it's easier to trade
- product costs less than IRL
- new design/mechanics are doable
- you cannot cheat (extra draw/deck stacking/...)

Cons :
- you don't get to see the sun

This means that basic TCG rules will still apply if you want to achieve anything on the competitive scene :
- You need to be talented / playtest (these two compensate each other to some extent)
- You need to buy cards/packs as an investment in the game (that you hope to turn into profit by either trading well, being lucky on boosters opening, winning world champs)

˜

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:08 AM
I have a con (for now) - not portable. You cant take it to your hobby shop.

Thanisse
05-13-2013, 07:32 AM
I have a con (for now) - not portable. You cant take it to your hobby shop.

just have the store keeper have 4-8 laptops handy , and you're set
or ask friends to bring their laptops

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 08:06 AM
Assuming free wifi or someone using a phone to tether.

Physical cards are far easier to take around, just pointing it out. Will be a moot point if it comes to smartphones.

Blare731
05-13-2013, 08:15 AM
This isn't guaranteed. Basically, this will depend on how other players decide to spend their money. If someone has extra boosters and wants some gold for PvE purposes, they may offer their boosters on the AH. While it's likely that some boosters will be available in this way, I suspect that there will be a lot more demand for them than there is supply. In other words, you'll have to grind a lot to afford the prices. Keep in mind that boosters cost real money, while PvE is free, so everybody wanting to play Hex completely for free but wanting access to the same PvP cards will be doing the same strategy.

I would actually disagree with this, since the set price for boosters will be $2, the only way to really get rid of them if you don't want them is by selling them for gold.

mauvebutterfly
05-13-2013, 08:30 AM
I would actually disagree with this, since the set price for boosters will be $2, the only way to really get rid of them if you don't want them is by selling them for gold.

I'm assuming that platinum will be used for draft entry fees. Since you can bring your own boosters to a draft, there's a possibility of boosters going for platinum. Alternatively, if there's a "ticket" item that you purchase to sign up for a tournament/draft, boosters might also be sold for tickets.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 08:40 AM
I think mauvebutterfly has a point - packs that people get for free (kickstart rewards, prizes) might go for platinum, for around the same price, but probably a little less (due to undercutting I am sure.)

It would keep some people who keep winning, with cashflow to pay for entries.

WWKnight
05-13-2013, 08:42 AM
Thats my goal. If I find myself with an increased amount of boosters every week from winning drafts, I plan on filtering some of my horde into the AH for the free to play players to join in on the fun. Will also buy a bunch of tickets to sell for gold too!

Blare731
05-13-2013, 08:45 AM
So your saying that people are going to put up packs for anything less than $2? (in platinum) because if they put them up for anything more there is no way I'm buying them for platinum on the AH I'll just buy them from CZE like normal.

And besides the KS, most people will be paying $2 to get packs so I doubt they will put them up for less.


Of course the people with soft-sub are getting a constant deal, but I can't forsee packs selling for a $1 worth on the AH just because of soft-sub. Which yes, does present an opportunity for soft sub to sell all there packs for double profit every week. But it is just one pack a week.

So I guess yeah there will be packs for platinum, but in my opinion you would be wasting your money if you did so, because you wouldn't get $2 for them and you could get $2 for them in gold (whatever that may cost).

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 08:48 AM
Thats my goal. If I find myself with an increased amount of boosters every week from winning drafts, I plan on filtering some of my horde into the AH for the free to play players to join in on the fun. Will also buy a bunch of tickets to sell for gold too!

You win some internets today, sir.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 08:51 AM
Blare - what if someone buys a booster with gold, then sells it for platinum? Anything is a profit then (money for free, more or less.)

Just saying, I think less than $2 in platinum is likely, but I don't see it going below $1.50 or so.

Also, old packs will sell crazy high if retired sets happens. Expect prices of $20+ once they have been out long enough.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 08:52 AM
Soft-sub packs and KS packs should be bound.
They are for you to open/draft with, not to flood the AH with $1.80 packs which would screw up the economy and CZE.

~

Blare731
05-13-2013, 08:53 AM
Yeah but let's say you have enough gold (worth $2) would you buy a pack that someone is selling for gold worth $2 or would you buy a card that's worth $2?

The card you can turnaround and sell for $2 while, like you said you wouldn't be able to sell packs at that rate, since the company sells them at that rate.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 08:54 AM
Blare - what if someone buys a booster with gold, then sells it for platinum? Anything is a profit then (money for free, more or less.)

Just saying, I think less than $2 in platinum is likely, but I don't see it going below $1.50 or so.

Also, old packs will sell crazy high if retired sets happens. Expect prices of $20+ once they have been out long enough.

That's being optimistic.
From what we've seen, the powerlevel of cards is very low (compared to MtG) and the sets will powercreep as in WoWTCG.
Don't expect Black Lotus and Mox in there

~

UDareUTake
05-13-2013, 08:59 AM
ahhh mox =] sweet music to my ears.. lol

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 09:05 AM
I don't think we will be seeing anything like mox, but we can't guess the overall impact of things yet - Gambit might end up as one of those kinds of cards, or then again it might be worthless. We also didn't see the whole set.

Besides, people do pay more for rare things. The kickstarter alone is proof of that.

And ingame gold will probably not have a fixed value like platinum, it will probably fluctuate a lot, especially at the start, but it will also creep higher as time goes on. Some players will have huge amounts of gold, and would not complain at using that to gain a lesser amount of platinum if they can do it quickly.

I spent enough time in WoW etc to know that much. I could be wrong, but that is the experience I have had.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 09:23 AM
To me gold doesn't/won't have any value, it'll be used for pve and cosmetic stuff.

~

Blare731
05-13-2013, 09:30 AM
To me gold doesn't/won't have any value, it'll be used for pve and cosmetic stuff.

~

No way, being able to sell booster packs for gold. Inherently makes whatever they cost, the set value of what gold to money ratio will be. Yes, how much they sell for will fluctuate but that will be what gold is worth in a $2 ratio and everything can and probably will be based on that.


I don't think we will be seeing anything like mox, but we can't guess the overall impact of things yet - Gambit might end up as one of those kinds of cards, or then again it might be worthless. We also didn't see the whole set.

Besides, people do pay more for rare things. The kickstarter alone is proof of that.

And ingame gold will probably not have a fixed value like platinum, it will probably fluctuate a lot, especially at the start, but it will also creep higher as time goes on. Some players will have huge amounts of gold, and would not complain at using that to gain a lesser amount of platinum if they can do it quickly.

I spent enough time in WoW etc to know that much. I could be wrong, but that is the experience I have had.

I've played WoW for six years, and I know that as time goes on Gold get's less and less valuable. Meaning you need to amass more and more for it to be considered something worth while. That is kind of how inflation works, and with in-game currency generally most games follow this trend. Because, as time goes on more and more people will amass gold and so the prices for things will keep going up. Therefore, $2 of gold at the start might only be a little but after a year, should be a huge amount of gold. (Depending on how easy it is to get through PvE and how bad the gold sinks are.)

The only way that gold does not get inflated, is if the gold sinks in the game are so large for each player that spending gold on the AH will be a huge decision because the PvE mechanics require gold and those are so good that you want to use your gold on them instead of AH (for instance: crafting)

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 09:32 AM
Consumable cards purchaseable for gold is the best gold sink I can think of

~

Blare731
05-13-2013, 09:35 AM
Consumable cards purchaseable for gold is the best gold sink I can think of

~

Well you say that, but Diablo 3 seemed like it had really amazing Gold sinks with their crafting systems and now most of it is negligible gold amounts, for people who are considered to have a lot of gold.

Dralon
05-13-2013, 09:40 AM
I think some here are focused too exclusively on people only willing to spend cash on pvp cards and boosters. I think it has been shown in multiple MMOs that people will spend real life money on quality PVE content. We still have a lot to learn about how the economy will work, and will see if purchasing gold with real dollars, vs trading boosters for Pve items such as equipment or legendary Pve cards becomes the more cost effective way to advance in Pve. Most players will do some of both and want to advance some in both.

JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 09:43 AM
They said that there will be a crafting system. Maybe charging a fair to large amount (in game currency) to utilize the crafting system will create the money sink to fend off inflation.

JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 09:45 AM
The worst in game economy offender was the original Star Wars galaxies. A stand alone quest got you a thousand or two. An average suit of armor was 50 thousand with prices of things going up to 2 million. There will definitely need to be some sort of money sink or else a common will be like 1000 in game and a rare will be like 10000