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View Full Version : Concern about the almost imbalanced high tiers.



Blare731
05-12-2013, 05:52 PM
I don't think CZE was expecting to let people 'combine' low tier KS for instance.

2 GK is much better than 1 Dragon lord.

2 GK gets you 4 of all the exclusives, 2 free drafts per week, 300 packs, 8 starter kits, and I think also the 40 rare/legendary equipment.

Versus

1 DL that gives u 2 exclusives, 1 free draft, 150 packs, 4 kits, 20 rare/legendary items and of course the DL sleeve and card exclusive.

How equal are these really? And it gets works as you go up.

5 GK to 1 Primal,

10 GK to 1 Immortal

20 GK to 1 Producer.

BKCshah
05-12-2013, 05:58 PM
Unless you really value the equipment highly, 2x Pro + 1x GK would be better imo :P

The two highest are something different regarding design input. However, more features would not be unwelcomed. The producer 4x ever card is all you would ever need to build any PvP (non-exclusive PvE) deck.

Blare731
05-12-2013, 05:59 PM
Unless you really value the equipment highly, 2x Pro + 1x GK would be better imo :P

Well that's kind of my point, you can break it down to have so many more benefits by combing the lower tiers that DL and up are just almost not worth it instead.

d00dz
05-12-2013, 05:59 PM
This is a real concern. Instead of pledging Producer as I originally intended, I instead pledged Grand King plus multiple Pro Player tiers.

I still want to pledge Producer if they decide to improve the perks though.

The current situation is that the Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal and Producer tiers simply are far less attractive than combinations of the lower tiers. I hope CZE can remedy this glaring oversight.

Xenavire
05-12-2013, 06:00 PM
Maybe thats why they put limits on them? If they expected a high influx of people at those tiers, and people doubling, the limit might be a way to soft cap it. And they still get the money, which is the most important thing.

Blare731
05-12-2013, 06:03 PM
I want them to make the Higher ones more exciting so people don't have to do that. It makes no sense that you can get double for triple the value of the DL with the lower tiers combined and it means less people will be able to get them, which isn't exactly good.

d00dz
05-12-2013, 06:07 PM
Looking at the pledges, one person already backed out from the Primal tier. Probably realized he could get more for his money by going for the lower tiers and ending up with more cards.

Socks4615
05-12-2013, 06:10 PM
Probably they made the tiers under the assumption that everyone would just choose One, which is how it normally goes for Kickstarters, after all. Then they said, "Oh sure, you can have multiples on multiple KS accounts/PayPal donations and have it be on one Hex account in-game" without really realizing what that would mean. So now there's this problem. We'll see what Monday brings, I guess?

Daer
05-12-2013, 06:11 PM
Looking at the pledges, one person already backed out from the Primal tier. Probably realized he could get more for his money by going for the lower tiers and ending up with more cards.

I'm pretty sure that was kami who moved up to immortal.

But yes I think the tiers need a bit better balance. I'm Grand King with a King second account and I'm debating a third donation for another King rather then just moving up to a higher tier.

Kami
05-12-2013, 06:15 PM
Yeah, I'm still wondering about the higher tiers in terms of balance vs multiple lower tiers in hindsight. I'm also considering Producer at this point as well - although I'd have no way to travel to/from them and frankly, I'm not much of a designer either, unfortunately.

I'm not complaining though; I have no issues backing and at the same time, having even a minor lasting touch on the game has it's sentimental value. Either way, there's still room at the top and I still have until the first week of June to finalize my decision (again? *lol*)

Really the only serious disadvantage is the single free draft per week in comparison to those who have multiple Pro Tier perks.

Besides, the end goal is to support CZE and this game. Considering they developed this as an independent IP for two years without even a hint to the public (afaik), they must have put a lot of heart and effort into this. With a "Fans First" motto, it's hard not to stand behind them.

d00dz
05-12-2013, 06:22 PM
Yeah, I'm still wondering about the higher tiers in terms of balance vs multiple lower tiers in hindsight. I'm also considering Producer at this point as well - although I'd have no way to travel to/from them and frankly, I'm not much of a designer either, unfortunately.

I'm not complaining though; I have no issues backing and at the same time, having even a minor lasting touch on the game has it's sentimental value. Either way, there's still room at the top and I still have until the first week of June to finalize my decision (again? *lol*)

Really the only serious disadvantage is the single free draft per week in comparison to those who have multiple Pro Tier perks.

Besides, the end goal is to support CZE and this game. Considering they developed this as an independent IP for two years without even a hint to the public (afaik), they must have put a lot of heart and effort into this. With a "Fans First" motto, it's hard not to stand behind them.

We are in a similar situation. I'm all too willing to plunk $10k down but will need to know their responses on some matters first as well as a serious adjustment in perks for the higher tiers.

I'm also not a good designer so its not a big deal for me though they did say that they are willing to work out designs over Skype instead of having to travel to their offices so that's a plus.

Here are some issues that haven't gotten an official response and my pledge hinges on these decisions:
1. Having sets go out of print (no sense dumping a ton of cash in the beginning when every card eventually loses value)
2. Account security (phishers and hackers will inevitably come in droves when a secondary market is thriving)
3. RL cash withdrawal (a black market will pop up somewhere but I still would rather they do it officially and get a cut in the process)

Brewdinar
05-12-2013, 06:36 PM
I'm pledged at GK but seriously considering breaking up that investment. Giving up those extra features could mean a TON of extra packs, or more copies of the exclusives, or more drafting every week... it's cool that you can customize your order to focus on what you want, but I think it's unhealthy for the KickStarter in general, and extra customer service load for CZE. I would suggest maybe an only-2-orders-combined limit, or give some new, if minor, exclusives to the higher tiers.

Liokae
05-12-2013, 06:47 PM
No kidding. I'm currently sitting on Grand King, but with it being this way I'm very strongly considering dropping down to two of the $250 ones- or even just 4 regular King ones, which would both give me a lot more, for twenty dollars *less* than I'm currently pledged.

It's actively disincetivizing people to pledge higher tiers, and that's not a good thing at ALL.

nearlysober
05-12-2013, 07:17 PM
Things as is... they dont seem to be suffering in the money raising department.

I think only a small fraction of people (like the type that are posting here) are analyzing the rewards to the level of thinking of ways to buy multiple rewards.

C-Drive
05-12-2013, 07:24 PM
I wish they'd honor it to folks they've spoke with, or limit it to two tiers, but otherwise they need to cut this multi-tier stuff out all together. Maybe create some Kickstarter add-on purchases to achieve the same idea without dumping the idea of tiers out the window.

But I guess in some ways it makes sense. Someone wants fifteen pro player tier perks, they would just make fifteen separate accounts and trade between their main account anyways. Might as well save some on the server load and let backers tier to their hearts content on one account.

Liokae
05-12-2013, 07:33 PM
It's not that it impedes them making money, it's that making it possible to get more by donating less is essentially punishing people for choosing to donate the higher tiers instead. In what universe does it make any kind of sense to be giving out $1,360 worth of basic cards sand four sets of the King rewards for $480, when $500 only gets you $340 of basic cards, two sets of the King rewards, and the other four unique tier bonuses? I don't *want* to go to the effort of setting up extra kickstarter accounts to pull it off, but the Pro/Dungeon/Guild/Raid unique bonuses are *not* worth two full sets of King rewards, $20 of cash, and $1,020 worth of cards. It's a flat-out ridiculous difference.

Lelorox
05-12-2013, 07:34 PM
There's so much meta game outside of the cards, I think player skill and theory crafting will prove to out weigh people who have a ton of cards such as high tier backers.

BKCshah
05-12-2013, 07:42 PM
player skill and theory crafting will win out (subtracting various luck factors) - working from the same card pool. I agree that in general the >= $250 tiers are pretty poor value in general.

All one needs to do is look at where the support lies for what interests people. The two most popular are Pro and Dungeon Crawler (or PvP vs PvE play). It's hard to see the value in many of existing tiers evidenced by the low support of the others.

Jugan
05-12-2013, 08:20 PM
Wondering if we could get a source where they state they're allowing you to combine kickstart rewards.

d00dz
05-12-2013, 08:23 PM
Wondering if we could get a source where they state they're allowing you to combine kickstart rewards.

Here you go:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23172&p=208367&viewfull=1#post208367

Jugan
05-12-2013, 08:28 PM
thanks. I'm pretty disappointed. this changes things for me.

djlowballer
05-12-2013, 08:50 PM
Combining tiers really isn't the way to go. Add-ons to a purchase make more sense or at least even things out with stretch goals. However I know CzE doesn't really care. I would let people do whatever they want were they throwing 1-10k at me sight unseen for my game. I would wager thats more than their calculated lifetime relationship value all before the game goes live without incurring any additional expense.

S117
05-12-2013, 09:02 PM
Plus some people (Like myself) are just more interested in some of the other lifetime perks...I went Grand King because I wanted all the account perks (Well maybe except Raid Leader) But can't really afford that many $250 tiers (Hell...realistically shouldn't have even spent that much on Grand King...purely from a budget standpoint that is ;)). I realize, monetarily, I could do better but I wanted those perks. They were worth the money (to me anyway) I pass up in getting extra packs...

As far as flooding the market? Well let's say 10,000 people back at $500 or more (in multiple accounts)...if Hex does as well as we're all hoping will that really be that large a chunk of the market? At least in time if they get into the 100,000's of subscribers that will really be a very small minority of the player base.

Any way you do it prices are always skewed for cards in new sets of any CCG for awhile before they settle into more (relatively) stable prices as a meta develops around them...

Blare731
05-12-2013, 09:11 PM
As far as flooding the market? Well let's say 10,000 people back at $500 or more (in multiple accounts)...if Hex does as well as we're all hoping will that really be that large a chunk of the market? At least in time if they get into the 100,000's of subscribers that will really be a very small minority of the player base.

This won't happen because only 1,000 people can get the GK tier

S117
05-12-2013, 09:18 PM
I meant single people buying multiple $250 tiers each...Or, well, any tier with better $ value than GK...

And also, with limits in place, there isn't going to be many more packs floating around than they ultimately (hopefully) planned for anyway...


EDIT: Heh heh...didn't need to see that they will combine multiple KS bonuses...mmmm multiple GK tiers...now I just need a spare $500 or so to fall into my bank account in the next month...

Blare731
05-12-2013, 09:22 PM
I meant single people buying multiple $250 tiers each...Or, well, any tier with better $ value than GK...

And also, with limits in place, there isn't going to be many more packs floating around than they ultimately (hopefully) planned for anyway...

Oh ok but even still only 5,000 max for all the 250 tiers and 1,000 for the Gk so it won't be any more than they expected but... You could back unlimited amounts of kings.

S117
05-12-2013, 09:26 PM
Yeah unlimited Kings is the only one that could get beyond what they expected since the other higher-cost tiers have limits they set (and hopefully planned for) themselves...

Fireblast
05-12-2013, 10:40 PM
Fix higher tiers plz

~

Oaka23
05-13-2013, 02:14 AM
I really hate that I read this thread

It's making me want to drop another 250 on a second pro player but I realllllllllllllllllllllly shouldn't be doing that

Tyranth
05-13-2013, 02:53 AM
I went Grand King as well and now I am not sure, 2 pro players is tempting with the 2 drafts a week for life. But man all those perks are sweet! Crypto throw us crazy backers a bone!

Storm_Fireblade
05-13-2013, 04:08 AM
I agree, that the higher Tiers lack a certain value. I was thrilled, when seeing the Grand King Tier at first and pledged right away. But then I realized, that getting the exclusive Cards and the Boosters only once, makes it so unattractive to stick to this tier compared with multiple lower tiers. Right now I pledged for 3 Pro Player Tiers. $750 is really the highest I can go, if nothing unforseen happens until the 7th of June and while I'll play the whole PvE campaign and propably love it, I am not interested in PvE-perks if I can get stuff like a free draft weekly, which is three boosters and $1 fee EVERY week. So much value in cards, possible prices due to winning etc.

If there was an addon, allowing us to buy extra boosters similar cheap like those included in the tiers, as well as free drafts per week I might consider changing my pledges to one account with one tier and multiple addons. But right now, there is absolutely nothing not even close, that is able to compete with the value of three pro player tiers if you can invest $750.

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 04:34 AM
Higher tiers aren't about bang for the buck. They're about getting special things that money can't buy, and if you spend a long time playing a TCG, those rewards are timeless. That's kind of the point, between vanity cards and designing a dungeon. The upper tiers are limited in quantity for a reason, as they have a worst case scenario of how many people will ever be able to get the deals because they are more costly than just a bunch of boosters. Addons wouldn't have a limit, and would allow for an uncontrollable number of people getting that deal. I don't think there's any problem with how it is. There's not that many people with the money to throw down on this to scoop up sets of $250 tiers, we're just proportionally loud because of how invested we are in the game.

Shoubushi
05-13-2013, 04:41 AM
I brought this up in the other thread once they allowed us to purchase multiples of the same tier on the same account. Grand King and higher aren't as tempting anymore at all. Pro Tier x2 or Pro Tier + Whatever other perk you want is probably the best option technically.

And since Grand King only offers a combination of the perks from the $250 and nothing else, unless you REALLY want every perk there, you're better off just getting 2.

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 04:50 AM
Well to be fair, GK is reasonable value as long as you see value in 3 of the levels - 120 for king + 130 for each 250 level. When I finally decide to pledge, I'll probably still do GK+ just so I have the benefits in case I want them. Pro, Dungeon are decent depending on your play motivation, Guild some value. Raid Leader ok. Collectors the least appealing to me - so I'd say it's about 'B/E' to me since I'd want to have both the PvP and PvE benefits.

Now 2x GK is just bad value for an individual :P

Kami
05-13-2013, 05:11 AM
Well, like I said, having a lasting impact on the game has its sentimental value. And again, the only serious disadvantage to one of the higher tiers vs multiple lower tiers is number of free drafts per week (i.e. free cards and free competitive play for prizes). Producer status negates this somewhat but you still wouldn't be able to play in drafts as frequently without paying even more.

That's literally the only thing they would have to change for the upper tiers to balance it out. Either limit the free drafts per week for multiple Pro Tiers or increase the free draft limit for upper tiers.

The main reason people would prefer multiple lower tiers is the infinite supply of free booster cards, even from future sets. It's essentially gaming the system. While you can argue that yes, these people are paying more money upfront by pledging multiple Pro Tier levels, in the long run, they're also the ones who will likely stay the longest in the game and never pay again for a fraction of the cost of one of the upper tiers.

The number of boosters, exclusive cards, etc. doesn't really have a lasting impact over the upper tiers considering we get custom-built stuff. How much more exclusive can you get? But the long-term disadvantage in terms of TCG is rather significant.

This is part of the reason (not the only reason) I am considering Producer - to negate the only real advantage that multiple Pro Tiers would give (i.e. free cards for life). I took a look at the WOW TCG and it has lasted at least six years so far with multiple set releases. I believe this game will be successful and it's worth backing to that degree as well.

And yes, I know, it sounds a bit selfish but I'm not complaining - if it stays this way, so be it - at worst, it would only have a minor impact on my current pledge decisions. I have a lot of respect for this company. =^_^=

C-Drive
05-13-2013, 06:46 AM
This won't happen because only 1,000 people can get the GK tier

Not true at all - see any limits on the PayPal Donation page?

http://hextcg.com/donate/

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 06:50 AM
Yeah, but they can pull down the paypal link for any tier at any time and say sold out if it reached problem status. You can't do that on kickstarter pledges. Once someone backs a tier, they cannot change the tier.

C-Drive
05-13-2013, 06:52 AM
I seriously doubt they would pull down any tier, being digital items they can create whatever they need ad infinitum.

StrykerX
05-13-2013, 07:02 AM
This is also my concern with the higher tiers. I just hope Cyptozoic actually gives the Dragon Lord and higher tiers more than 1 free drafts a week. That way, people who pledged at Dragon Lord or higher tiers would actually feel it was a better choice rather than pledging multiple lower tiers.

Currently pledging multiple lower tiers is actually the way to go since you would be getting a LOT initial booster packs (which can be used for future drafts), MORE KS exclusive cards and MORE than 1 free draft a week. I really do hope that Cryptozoic do something about this because I personally think that KS backers should not feel that they should support multiple lower tiers to get more value to their money. Rather it should be the people who backed the higher tiers who should get more considering the Dragon Lord tier and above has a very few limit in it.

StrykerX
05-13-2013, 07:06 AM
In addition to that, I think it would be better for both Cryptozoic and the KS backer because it would take less time for Cryptozoic to give the rewards since very few people would pledge multiple lower tiers compared to working with more than 500 people for multiple pledges. And KS backers would have less waiting time to get their rewards

Blare731
05-13-2013, 10:07 AM
Not true at all - see any limits on the PayPal Donation page?

http://hextcg.com/donate/

you know, I never clicked donate button because I figured it just went to the kickstarter haha.

C-Drive
05-13-2013, 10:10 AM
you know, I never clicked donate button because I figured it just went to the kickstarter haha.

I did at first too, until folks were talking about PayPal pledges and I wondered where they were doing that.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 10:31 AM
I brought this up in the other thread once they allowed us to purchase multiples of the same tier on the same account. Grand King and higher aren't as tempting anymore at all. Pro Tier x2 or Pro Tier + Whatever other perk you want is probably the best option technically.

And since Grand King only offers a combination of the perks from the $250 and nothing else, unless you REALLY want every perk there, you're better off just getting 2.

Not quite. Grand King is the most cost effective way to get 3 or more of the $250 level perks.

If you just want the exclusive cards and packs multiple King levels seems most cost effective.

The value of multiple pro player levels is highly dependent on how frequently you expect to play in drafts relative to PvE. If you're expecting to do PvE to any significant degree than you'll probably get more milage out of having the Raid Leader, and Dungeon Delver perks than one more free draft per week.

The only reason I can see to go above Gand King is to get to the "make your own" perks such as the custom sleeves, or the custom dungeon. The "4 of every card and every equipment forever" perk looks valuable, but personally I can't help but think it'll kill half the fun of a Collectable game to just get handed all the stuff I'm supposed to be collecting.

Talreth
05-13-2013, 11:04 AM
Can someone run me through how to pledge twice for pro player? Thanks :)

Daer
05-13-2013, 11:06 AM
Can someone run me through how to pledge twice for pro player? Thanks :)

Either pledge it with 2 kickstarter accounts, or pledge once on kickstarter and once with paypal at http://hextcg.com/donate/

Talreth
05-13-2013, 11:16 AM
Either pledge it with 2 kickstarter accounts, or pledge once on kickstarter and once with paypal at http://hextcg.com/donate/

Do you have to do anything special to make sure it gets on one account? Like contact customer service or anything? Or just make sure you pledge with the same info.

Blare731
05-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Do you have to do anything special to make sure it gets on one account? Like contact customer service or anything? Or just make sure you pledge with the same info.

Yeah they said that you will have to talk to customer service and everything will get sorted out on one account.

Boojum
05-13-2013, 11:28 AM
Yeah, I think the comparative value of the $250 tiers wasn't quite fully baked, and allowing multiple Pro tiers on a single account was a mistake because it makes everything else look like a much worse value. Tellingly, since that was announced, Pro has shot up past Grand King, and isn't too far from having more pledges than GK and all the other $250 tiers combined.

It just feels wrong to have GK feel like a substantially worse value than stacking two of the lesser tiers. I'm not sure exactly how much can be done at this point to fix the issues (I think KS locks the tier rewards once the drive starts), but here's what I would do:

1. Raid Leader and Guild Master are obviously the duds of the litter, with only 6 backers each. They also have similar themes. Merge them (or if that's not officially possible, announce that those who back either one will get the benefits of the other too).
2. Grand King and above get double the special rewards from the $250 tiers where applicable (2 drafts per week, 180 packs from GM, 2 copies of the alternate art cards, 40 random equipment, and a full playset of 4 of each King-exclusive card). I really think that those who go all in on a big backing like this should be rewarded above those who try to game the system and finagle extra advantages by stacking up multiple lesser tiers.
3. Backpedal and disallow any further merging of multiple copies of the same benefit on one account.

Talreth
05-13-2013, 11:30 AM
Alright thanks.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 11:40 AM
Yeah, the $250 tier would be better balanced if the free tournament per week didn't stack (especially since the other perks at that tier don't seem to stack).

Talreth
05-13-2013, 11:49 AM
Yeah, I think the comparative value of the $250 tiers wasn't quite fully baked, and allowing multiple Pro tiers on a single account was a mistake because it makes everything else look like a much worse value. Tellingly, since that was announced, Pro has shot up past Grand King, and isn't too far from having more pledges than GK and all the other $250 tiers combined.

It just feels wrong to have GK feel like a substantially worse value than stacking two of the lesser tiers. I'm not sure exactly how much can be done at this point to fix the issues (I think KS locks the tier rewards once the drive starts), but here's what I would do:

1. Raid Leader and Guild Master are obviously the duds of the litter, with only 6 backers each. They also have similar themes. Merge them (or if that's not officially possible, announce that those who back either one will get the benefits of the other too).
2. Grand King and above get double the special rewards from the $250 tiers where applicable (2 drafts per week, 180 packs from GM, 2 copies of the alternate art cards, 40 random equipment, and a full playset of 4 of each King-exclusive card). I really think that those who go all in on a big backing like this should be rewarded above those who try to game the system and finagle extra advantages by stacking up multiple lesser tiers.
3. Backpedal and disallow any further merging of multiple copies of the same benefit on one account.

I think that GK should get all of them, you can pick one special benefit to have twice (2 drafts, 180 packs, 40 equips, whatever), and GK gets double king benefit. That way it's not just double every 250 tier, but it's like backing one tier twice and having some extra perks for going the 500. If they don't do this I think they should just make it maximum 3 pledges per tier, because it's unfair to go back on your word and they have only officially confirmed 3 pledges.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 11:52 AM
Give GK 2 drafts and 4 of each cards and i'm fine with it :)

~

houjix
05-13-2013, 11:53 AM
Give GK 2 drafts and 4 of each cards and i'm fine with it :)

~

I'd prefer a pack count increase too, but anything would be an improvement.

TheBlueMagician
05-13-2013, 11:55 AM
I think there are a few problems with this scenario, partially on the developer end, and partially on the consumer end:

1) As mentioned by Boojum, it's somewhat a mistake to allow multiple pledges. I think the idea of 2x, maybe 3x stacking is a neat idea for players who really want to focus on a certain thing (notably, drafting), but anything beyond that creates problems. Why? Because it wasn't initially designed to work like that. The tiers were balanced around single pledges, as they should be. The reason that you can do it is because Cryptozoic realized it would be a good idea, since it allows dedicated people who want to pay more get exactly what they want out of their money.

2) so why is it bad to let customers just do 4, 10, 20 pro player tiers? Because once you start getting beyond 3 or 4, you're essentially guaranteeing you never have to pay money for the game again, which just isn't really fair under the payment model they want to use. Sure, you can do it, but it's sort of a jerkish thing to do: they've given you two inches by offering both a free way to get boosters, and by letting you do it multiple times, and now you're asking for a mile by figuring you should be able to do it so many times it renders their payment model irrelevant to you forever.

3) unfortunately, the games industry has sort of warped the mentality of Kickstarter; where it was initially "I have a really cool idea, please help it become a reality and I will give you some portion of the product," now it is essentially a store where we conduct transactions. The ultimate idea behind the higher tiers (1000+) is to provide enthusiastic customers a way to show their support for what is an awesome and unique game, as well as provide some high level rewards that aren't as tangible and immediately gratifying as the lower tiers.

4) Let's face it, the PvE tiers are neat, but pale in comparison to the Pro Player tier. The PP tier gives you cash value, while the GM and RL tier simply provide a way to clear content faster, or easier. I definitely think the GM and RL tiers could use some tweaking to make them more desirable to people who want to do a lot of PvP, or do a mix.


I agree with Boojum that they shouldn't allow multi-merging, though only once you get passed 3 at most, 2 preferably. I thought it was an awesome gesture of good faith on Crypto's part to let you do a double, even triple pledge. But to do a 10k pledge, even a 2.5k pledge, and split that between stuff to min-max your benefits? That just seems greedy and in poor taste. Again, remember: the idea of Kickstarter isn't that you're buying a product, it's that you're investing money in something so that it exists. So in the end, while I support changes to the PvE 250 tiers, the higher tiers are perfectly fine as they are.

Also, as a note: you aren't locked into reward tiers. You can manage your pledge at anytime, and select any reward that is less than or equal to your pledge.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 12:08 PM
Easiest solution: Just allow merging up to double your highest pledge.

In other words, King can add an extra King, Pro Player can add an extra Pro, Grand King can add Double Pro or an extra GK, Producers can go wild if they want.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 12:15 PM
I think there are a few problems with this scenario, partially on the developer end, and partially on the consumer end:

1) As mentioned by Boojum, it's somewhat a mistake to allow multiple pledges. I think the idea of 2x, maybe 3x stacking is a neat idea for players who really want to focus on a certain thing (notably, drafting), but anything beyond that creates problems. Why? Because it wasn't initially designed to work like that. The tiers were balanced around single pledges, as they should be. The reason that you can do it is because Cryptozoic realized it would be a good idea, since it allows dedicated people who want to pay more get exactly what they want out of their money.

2) so why is it bad to let customers just do 4, 10, 20 pro player tiers? Because once you start getting beyond 3 or 4, you're essentially guaranteeing you never have to pay money for the game again, which just isn't really fair under the payment model they want to use. Sure, you can do it, but it's sort of a jerkish thing to do: they've given you two inches by offering both a free way to get boosters, and by letting you do it multiple times, and now you're asking for a mile by figuring you should be able to do it so many times it renders their payment model irrelevant to you forever.

3) unfortunately, the games industry has sort of warped the mentality of Kickstarter; where it was initially "I have a really cool idea, please help it become a reality and I will give you some portion of the product," now it is essentially a store where we conduct transactions. The ultimate idea behind the higher tiers (1000+) is to provide enthusiastic customers a way to show their support for what is an awesome and unique game, as well as provide some high level rewards that aren't as tangible and immediately gratifying as the lower tiers.

4) Let's face it, the PvE tiers are neat, but pale in comparison to the Pro Player tier. The PP tier gives you cash value, while the GM and RL tier simply provide a way to clear content faster, or easier. I definitely think the GM and RL tiers could use some tweaking to make them more desirable to people who want to do a lot of PvP, or do a mix.


I agree with Boojum that they shouldn't allow multi-merging, though only once you get passed 3 at most, 2 preferably. I thought it was an awesome gesture of good faith on Crypto's part to let you do a double, even triple pledge. But to do a 10k pledge, even a 2.5k pledge, and split that between stuff to min-max your benefits? That just seems greedy and in poor taste. Again, remember: the idea of Kickstarter isn't that you're buying a product, it's that you're investing money in something so that it exists. So in the end, while I support changes to the PvE 250 tiers, the higher tiers are perfectly fine as they are.

Also, as a note: you aren't locked into reward tiers. You can manage your pledge at anytime, and select any reward that is less than or equal to your pledge.

1/2) It's digital only rewards, so it's fine. They might require a few restrictions on it, though. Honestly, I doubt the majority of the pledgers with more than $1000 down would have spent that normally for years, and I feel Cryptozoic would rather have a player for life than make an extra $1000-2000 dollars off the player.

3) IMO, that's only with MMOs, but I somewhat agree here.

4) Although it cannot be changed anymore, it would have been nice to just do a PvE focus or a PvP focus pledge tier split.

Brewdinar
05-13-2013, 12:54 PM
Well, the newly announced stretch goals only make this problem worse. Then provide new bonuses, but they stop at King. Then by giving you the equipment for all the promo cards, they make the Dungeon Crawler less relevant, and by inheritance the Grand King.

At this pace, people might even start shrinking their pledges! Hopefully the next wave of announcements will include some higher-tier-only buffs, and a free authenticator.

Kami
05-13-2013, 01:02 PM
At this pace, people might even start shrinking their pledges! Hopefully the next wave of announcements will include some higher-tier-only buffs, and a free authenticator.

Pretty much this. For people on a budget or for people who want to min-max for as cheap as possible, combining tiers versus going all-in is increasingly more worthwhile. Not only do CZE get more pledges for lower amounts (but more altogether), the higher tiers become obsolete unless you really, really want to be part of the creation of the game - or really want to support them (:P).

The problem comes when too many people min-max. Those who want to get in on the action for certain lower tiers but can't afford to go to the higher tiers are locked-out. Remember, nearly 1/4 of both the Pro Tier and Grand King Tier are gone and there's twenty-four days left. If demand > supply, you lose money from potential investors. And if supply > demand (because of decreasing value at the higher tiers), same problem.

Skewing it towards only lower tiers and min-maxers will hurt the overall campaign in the long run, imo.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Competitive players love to min/max. It's in their blood.

Kami
05-13-2013, 01:06 PM
Agreed, but it hurts the campaign.

Let's say that the tiers from Dragon Lord and up are completely filled. That's $362,500 of income with only 110 backers!

Compared to if people stack the $250 tiers (max 1000) for $250,000 and simultaneously depriving unique individuals (not multi-pledges) of contributing what they can afford.

Edit: In other words, I'd rather see more support by and for backers in the higher tiers because it means the backers care more about the project than themselves - at least for the ones that can afford it.

Talreth
05-13-2013, 01:11 PM
I think that pro player *might* get filled up towards the end of the campaign. A lot of the increase that's been seen in the pro-player tier I think is from people swapping some of their pledges after they learned you could multipledge. However, I think that's going to slow down significantly in the next 20 days. It is a problem though. Luckily the lower tiers have 2-3x the backers of Pro/GK.

Kami
05-13-2013, 01:18 PM
And additionally, there are a lot of people who've stated on the forum they WANT to pledge higher, they just don't think it's worth it and multi-pledge instead. So there are a lot of people that can afford it... they just choose not to. Isn't that the opposite of how the tier system should work? *lol*

Talreth
05-13-2013, 01:24 PM
Yeah. Hopefully it won't end up locking people out of PP/GK tier, and if it locks them out on KS they could still keep paypal open. It's an important gesture that CZE made in letting people multipledge but also a lesson about how people see dollar value rewards vs intangibles.

d00dz
05-13-2013, 02:00 PM
I just talked with Corey minutes ago and I must say, he is quite a pleasant and dynamic fellow. Loved every minute of talking with him!

In any case, yeah the devs are definitely aware of the issue and while they make no promises they hope to work something out. People pledging multiples of lower tiers was something they did not anticipate would catch on but I guess that's how it is in a game catered to a competitive environment. Players would min-max everything to the fullest extent possible.

Some people brought up the possibility of withdrawing their cash later on, and it is something that CZE would like to implement. However, it opens up an entirely new can of worms in terms of regulation and this would take a lot of time and effort. So, while its something they really would love to have as a feature, no promises too. Oh, and they also won't mind if you decide to sell your stuff in the black market (e.g. ebay)

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 02:13 PM
Can you go into a bit more detail d00dz? They are aware of the multi-pleding, but 'make no promises' about what? Are they trying to come up with a way to reduce multi-pledging in some manner?

Kami
05-13-2013, 02:14 PM
I just talked with Corey minutes ago and I must say, he is quite a pleasant and dynamic fellow. Loved every minute of talking with him!

In any case, yeah the devs are definitely aware of the issue and while they make no promises they hope to work something out. People pledging multiples of lower tiers was something they did not anticipate would catch on but I guess that's how it is in a game catered to a competitive environment. Players would min-max everything to the fullest extent possible.

Some people brought up the possibility of withdrawing their cash later on, and it is something that CZE would like to implement. However, it opens up an entirely new can of worms in terms of regulation and this would take a lot of time and effort. So, while its something they really would love to have as a feature, no promises too. Oh, and they also won't mind if you decide to sell your stuff in the black market (e.g. ebay)

That's actually something I'm glad to hear. =^_^=

I'm too shy to call, heh.

d00dz
05-13-2013, 02:18 PM
Can you go into a bit more detail d00dz? They are aware of the multi-pleding, but 'make no promises' about what? Are they trying to come up with a way to reduce multi-pledging in some manner?

Sorry if my statement was vague. What Corey said was that they would try to make the higher tiers more appealing but they aren't making any promises yet.

Liokae
05-13-2013, 02:20 PM
Having heard that they've at least acknowledged it's an issue, I'll definitely hold off on dropping my GK to multiple lowers until I hear what they come up with. I can always switch it up later if they decide to keep it as is or if I don't like whatever they change it to.

Storm_Fireblade
05-13-2013, 02:25 PM
I'm definitevely following this. Right now, the reason why I personally went for three Pro Player Tiers is, that first of all my max is $750 and thats directly in between two tiers. And secondly, I simply cannot see the Grand King Tier be of much value for me, if I compare it to multiple pro player tiers.

I know this Kickstarter is about helping the funding of this game, but why should someone pledge for something he isn't going to get much out of, while there is an option to really have rewards that blow your mind?!

All the PvE-Perks are nice, but in the end, they will just make the content easier for you and get you to the maximum level quicker. Nothing I really need (even though I'll play the whole campaign). Multiple free drafts and multiple stacks of the king tiers on the other hand is not only something of monetary value for me, it does provide me with rewards, that really are mindblowing, because they cater to my prefered gaming experience.

I love drafting, I'm looking at playing this game rather competitive than casual and its hard to pass on an opportunity like multiple tiers, if they compared with GK+ are so much better. After all I'm supporting CZE with an amount even higher than I would with 1 GK otherwise.

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 04:13 PM
Ahh, thanks for the clarification d00dz. How about we all discuss what we want or don't want in a higher level tier then? Maybe they could get some ideas.

I personally would be up for a dragon lord or maybe a primal alternative, as I don't enjoy their benefits. The vanity card and custom sleeve are neat, but it isn't worth it compared to Pro Player to me. Also, the dragon lord gets 1 of every card, and the primal gets a full first set. This actually is detrimental in my eyes, as I won't be collecting them or finding new things. Set 1 is going to last for a while, because we'll be in beta for the better part of a year and I doubt they're going to release a set 2 at launch. I want things that increase my opportunities to play and collect, not to be finished when I start the beta. Pro Player to me is an incentive to play a lot of games, try out crazy deck combos without repercussions, and slowly get a bunch of neat cards. I say we come up with potential ideas for pledges.

So what I have in mind would look kind of like:

$1000 PvP Tier 1 : GK + 3 drafts per week (4 total) + no standard draft entry fee for life (bring your own boosters, don't pay the $1 charge)
$2500 PvP Tier 2 : PvP Tier 1 + 6 drafts per week (total 10, if this came down a couple, I wouldn't complain though) + no entry fee for weekly / monthly tournaments (if they're draft or sealed deck, bring your own cards, just the fee) + rewards for matches won / played (100 plat for every 100 PvP games, boosters on every 3 draft wins? whatever they think is a fair mix)

The first tier would match the 4 x $250 for pro rewards in terms of drafts, but you've got the GK benefits, and a discount to keep playing drafts. I think that's a plenty strong incentive over stacking 4 pro tiers. The second tier would give out a daily free draft essentially, entry to bigger matches than just the free draft, and then more rewards for playing and winning games. They could even throw PvE rewards in there too. Like every 10th dungeon gets you an extra card reward from the boss (PvE content getting PvE rewards, to fit in with how everything else works). I would be real excited for a tier that gives less rewards up front, but rather rewarded winning and playing. That might add a lot of overhead though, and not be worth it to them. If it is too much, perhaps it could be a side subscription beyond the $4 a month soft subscription? A monthly fee (like $20 a month) for a certain number of boosters, no draft fee, and rewards for games won / played. The primal alternative gets to be a lifetime subscriber.

So, anyone got a response a response to that? I'm assuming someone's going to think it's an awful idea, but I'd love to hear how you would improve it. And what does anyone else think would be a good pledge tier for them besides just stacking free drafts? I think to justify a big tier instead of stacking small ones, something new and unique should be added to the mix.

Storm_Fireblade
05-13-2013, 04:22 PM
You forget the exclusive cards and initial boosters when pledging for multiple tiers. You get those four times (f.x. 600 boosters) compared to 150 with your suggestion for the 1k tier.

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 04:38 PM
It wasn't so much a forget as it was a tradeoff. You get all the GK tier rewards, which means you're left with 150 + 90 (guild leader) = 240 boosters instead of 600. You do only get 1 vs 4 of the new stretch goal bonus cards, and you get 2 (collector) vs 4 of the base exclusives. Compared to Pro x 4, you're gaining the other $250 bonuses, and losing about half the exclusive PvE cards. That and the $1 entry fee for matches beyond the 4 free ones a week. I figured PvP oriented people wouldn't necessarily be as worried about the PvE stuff, and didn't want this to discredit the existing upper level tiers which are more focused on collecting all the cards.

Brewdinar
05-13-2013, 05:45 PM
I think throwing in the equivalent of a free basic subscription in at Grand King, then doubling it every step above that, would be a pretty swell bonus. What beats a ton of extra packs now? A trickle of packs forever!

The "no draft fees ever" suggestion at $1000 is a pretty solid one as well, though I wouldn't be surprised if the best players could almost go infinite on that one. Certainly when including the free draft(s) a week and the starting packs, it would be a very very long time before a skilled drafter spent another penny.

Kami
05-13-2013, 05:49 PM
There is something additional they need to consider when throwing all these lifetime boosters around though. If newcomers to the game started joining in the future, they'd be extremely hindered without a large amount of capital for boosters since you cannot earn PvP cards in PvE (except maybe via AH somehow?).

This would hurt growing the player base after funding/initial launch.

d00dz
05-13-2013, 05:49 PM
They could throw in X free boosters for future sets. Doesn't have to be a lot but it gives additional incentive for the more expensive tiers and those boosters will likely be used up in draft play anyway.

Even a few primal packs for future sets would be nice. Again, doesn't have to be a lot. Its just that currently the higher tiers are not attractive and need boosts like these to draw people's pledges.

Digital_Aether
05-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Yeah, a skilled player could ideally win his way into his next match. Then again, if anyone was winning first in every match, odds are they'd be playing for free too. It just eases the cost by the $1 a match. That's why I think it would be a good draw for people to go from multiple pro tiers to a higher tier. It's a pretty big bonus, and I think worth giving up extra booster packs / KS PvE exclusives.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 05:55 PM
They could do it like a taster - King gets 1 booster free when a set launches, every tier above gets more (the 250's get 3, like a draft set, Gking gets 5, etc.)

Kami
05-13-2013, 06:28 PM
Besides the number of drafts for the higher tiers being improved on, the only other thing I would love to see is getting at least a full set of four for the KS exclusive cards for Dragon Lord or higher.

It's a bit sad that the two tiers with the four of each non-exclusive cards are still missing at least two of each of the exclusives. Just means you won't be able to use four in a deck unless someone trades or you pledge even more and merge. :/

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:34 PM
Then again, whats another $240 for 2 more kings after you went that far? It isn't that much to a big spender.

Brewdinar
05-13-2013, 06:34 PM
There is something additional they need to consider when throwing all these lifetime boosters around though. If newcomers to the game started joining in the future, they'd be extremely hindered without a large amount of capital for boosters since you cannot earn PvP cards in PvE (except maybe via AH somehow?).

This would hurt growing the player base after funding/initial launch.

PvP comes in the form of Draft/Sealed, where your current collection doesn't matter, and Constructed, where your collection almost doesn't matter because you only need to be able to trade things for one killer deck. Plus, the most common constructed play will use only the two newest sets so the massive starting bonuses will get phased out in a year. A few packs a week to a few thousand people isn't as much as it seems.


Besides the number of drafts for the higher tiers being improved on, the only other thing I would love to see is getting at least a full set of four for the KS exclusive cards for Dragon Lord or higher.

It's a bit sad that the two tiers with the four of each non-exclusive cards are still missing at least two of each of the exclusives. Just means you won't be able to use four in a deck unless someone trades or you pledge even more and merge. :/


Absolutely. That part is silly, especially when you can drop $480 and get 4x of the exclusives PLUS 600 packs etc.

StrykerX
05-14-2013, 01:28 AM
I really hope this issue gets addressed so it would be less hassle for both Cryptozoic and the KS backers when trying to give and get the rewards.

If issue is not addressed by the end of the campaign, I'll just get multiple pledges

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 02:21 AM
I wanna be Dragon Lord but as it stands I'll end up with :
- GK
- Pro Tier x2

That way I'll have playset of exclusives, 540 boosters, 3 Primal (at least), PvE/Guild perks, 3 drafts a week (I don't think I'll do more than that anyway, and I'll be happy to throw a couple $ CZE's way when training draft before big tournaments)

They should add exclusive Alternate Art PvP cards (as playsets) for Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal and Producer.
That way there would be very few in the game and you can really feel "special", those cards would have to be good tho :D

˜

d00dz
05-14-2013, 02:59 AM
We should probably start tossing ideas on how to improve the upper tiers. I'm certain the guys over at CZE are also thinking what they can do and if they could adopt some ideas from here then that should be even better :).

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 03:01 AM
Get boosters / free drafts on par with stacking lower tiers
Exclusive AA cards

GK is fine, Dragon Lord onwards aren't.

˜

Digital_Aether
05-14-2013, 03:12 AM
I agree. My ideas yesterday were to make PvP oriented alternate tiers for dragonlord and primal. Besides bonus drafts per week, the option to get rid of the $1 fee for standard draft is tempting. It would let you win your way back into more games easier because you'd only need boosters. Possibly cut the fee out for weekly / monthly tournaments to primal level backers. The other idea of mine was bonuses for playing / winning matches in PvP and possibly PvE (like 5 successful dungeons). Like a booster every so many matches played, and another for every so many wins, etc. I'd give up the sets of cards gladly for things that give bonus to winning drafts. I think offering something different for alternate high tiers is better than just stacking a bunch of drafts on the existing tiers, because those tiers are getting custom art and costing them resources. These all might be terrible ideas, either from other player's perspectives or from CZE's, but they're ideas at least. What do you think d00dz? Got any ideas that would be better than a stack of pro players?

d00dz
05-14-2013, 04:20 AM
It seems to me like the primary attraction of the Pro Player tier is the lasting longevity it provides for the cost. Something commensurate must also be offered for the higher tiers. While stacking the number of drafts and rewards should please more people, they could also extend the existing perks to improve the appeal while retaining the flavor.

For instance, Dragon Lord could have 1 of every card for the next X sets, Immortal could have 4 of every card for the next X sets, etc. On the flip side, upping the benefits to these tiers would reduce the value of the Producer tier so there should also be something much more attractive for someone to plunk $10k down. I guess a Producer could have one free draft a day (still a lot less than 40 Pro Player tiers $10k can buy though)?

Also, I'm liking the waiver of draft fees for unlimited drafts but I understand its something CZE might not be so keen about. A compromise could be made where the draft fees would be waived for the first X years or some period as well as free entries to all tournaments and events for the same period.

Free entries to all future prerelease tournaments for the higher perks would make a lot of people happy, at least it would be a big plus for me.

Edit: CZE should grant 4 of each (full set) KS-exclusive cards to Dragon Lord and up IMO.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 04:33 AM
Personally I would go with an approach like this:

1) Keep the $500 Grand King Tier, but increase it with another bonus of the rewards from the king tier (300 Boosters instead of 150. Two of the exclusiv Cards instead of one etc). This would be a really decent allrounder-package then.

2) A similar upgrade has to be done for the Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal and Producer Tiers. For the higher ones 3-4 times the knight boosters, cards etc

3) I would add a $750 PvP-Tier like this:
- 4x starter decks
- 3x free drafts weekly for life
- No entry-fee to drafts for life
- 1x every exclusive card
- 450 Boosters

If you compare this one to pledging three times the $250 Pro Player you gain the "No entry-fee to drafts for life" but you lose a 2nd and 3rd set of the exclusive cards, as well as 8 starter decks. This tier would be more appealing to multiple pro player backers, while only offering a slight bonus. But for the dedicated drafters (which are mainly those pledging multiple pro tiers anyway) this is a huge bonus and really does offer something for pledging that high to a single tier.

4) I would add a $750 PvE-Tier like this:
- 4 starter decks
- Raidleader Perks
- Guild Master Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +50% extra loot drop from dungeon bosses for life
- 5% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- 2x every exclusive card
- 450 boosters

If you compare this one to pledging the three "more pve focused" $250 tiers you gain +50% extra loot and a 5% chance to a booster for completing a dungeon, but you lose 1 set of the exclusive cards and 8 starter decks. This one would also, I think, be very appealing to pve-focused players, and it would include a slight upgrade compared to multiple low-tier pledges, which I think is only reasonable.

5) I would then think about adding two similar new tiers for $1500 with some additional upgrades.

Jacklau89
05-14-2013, 04:35 AM
Hello everyone and I am totally new to both Hex & Cryptozoic. I am currently on the dragon lord tier and are on the fence of simply switching to 3x or even 4x pro player tiers, given that they are stackable. As you can imagine, have 4 free drafts literally means a guarantee of 12 rare/legendary cards in a week, lifetime. This is more than enough to collect all sets of card without spending a penny, in ALL future sets. (imo pretty bad business for any company, and I am not even talking about selling these cards for real money which many would do. Tough luck for new players that join late and feel discriminated)

The issue is, as everyone else said, the lack of unique high tier rewards that are attractive to many power-players. We really need some privileges on higher tier to differentiate them from the common crowd. I would really like to see how Cryptozoic handles this issue, in the sense that how willing they are to listen.

Granted, if they take no actions at all then it would be difficult to convince me, as a fresher, that this company actually cares about their game and most importantly, the community.

d00dz
05-14-2013, 04:39 AM
Personally I would go with an approach like this:

1) Keep the $500 Grand King Tier, but increase it with another bonus of the rewards from the king tier (300 Boosters instead of 150. Two of the exclusiv Cards instead of one etc). This would be a really decent allrounder-package then.

2) A similar upgrade has to be done for the Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal and Producer Tiers. For the higher ones 3-4 times the knight boosters, cards etc

3) I would add a $750 PvP-Tier like this:
- 4x starter decks
- 3x free drafts weekly for life
- No entry-fee to drafts for life
- 1x every exclusive card
- 450 Boosters

If you compare this one to pledging three times the $250 Pro Player you gain the "No entry-fee to drafts for life" but you lose a 2nd and 3rd set of the exclusive cards, as well as 8 starter decks. This tier would be more appealing to multiple pro player backers, while only offering a slight bonus. But for the dedicated drafters (which are mainly those pledging multiple pro tiers anyway) this is a huge bonus and really does offer something for pledging that high to a single tier.

4) I would add a $750 PvE-Tier like this:
- 4 starter decks
- Raidleader Perks
- Guild Master Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +50% extra loot drop from dungeon bosses for life
- 5% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- 2x every exclusive card
- 450 boosters

If you compare this one to pledging the three "more pve focused" $250 tiers you gain +50% extra loot and a 5% chance to a booster for completing a dungeon, but you lose 1 set of the exclusive cards and 8 starter decks. This one would also, I think, be very appealing to pve-focused players, and it would include a slight upgrade compared to multiple low-tier pledges, which I think is only reasonable.

5) I would then think about adding two similar new tiers for $1500 with some additional upgrades.

I like the suggestions as they combine the best of the tiers depending on what a player is leaning towards. However, how do you scale up towards the higher tiers (Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal, Producer)? There are only so many drafts a player can reasonably do in a week and scaling up the number of boosters would be hilarious.I guess they could instead stagger the boosters over future sets (or provide the boosters in monthly increments) so supply won't be overwhelming.

JoonYoungK
05-14-2013, 04:44 AM
Storm_fireblade I like where you're going with that but I'd like to point out that grand king includes collector so already gets 2x exclusive. So getting 3x exclusive or a play set would be nice

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 04:50 AM
However, how do you scale up towards the higher tiers (Dragon Lord, Primal, Immortal, Producer)? There are only so many drafts a player can reasonably do in a week and scaling up the number of boosters would be hilarious.I guess they could instead stagger the boosters over future sets (or provide the boosters in monthly increments) so supply won't be overwhelming.

I would keep the Dragon Lord Tier as an upgrade to the Grand King Tier, meaning a next level "Allround Tier". For this I would add:
- +1 set exclusive cards (2 now, with the perks from the collector 3 in total)
- +1 free weekly draft for life (two now)
- +200 booster (500 now)
- +5 random rare/legendary equipment

For a higher $1500 PvP Tier you could add more boosters, 1 weekly draft (4 in total then) and wave the fee for all tournaments for life (instead of drafts only)
For a higher $1500 PvE Tier you could increase the booster chance by completing dungeons to 10%, add more boosters, increase the xp bonus for guildmembers with additional +5%

Primal should then be an allround-tier as well and upgraded from the perspective of the "new" Dragon Lord Tier.

Immortal/Producer need similar upgrades and then something more unique on top.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 04:51 AM
Let me just make a list with all tiers I would chance/add etc. Give me a few minutes :)

JoonYoungK
05-14-2013, 04:55 AM
They could promise set 2 boosters. Priority in pvp queue. Extra loss in PvE dungeon. A ks exclusive demonic tutor (I can wish).

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 05:23 AM
This is my suggestion for new and changed tiers to avoid people pledging multiple tiers, which in itself isn't something Kickstarter offers. Since it has been confirmed officially, that the customer support will help us merge those tiers, people are starting to stay on multiple lower tiers instead of moving higher though. A change to that would follow the overall philosophy more and decrease the amount of work for the customer support team due to the absence of "merging requests" after the kickstarter.

Let me highlight one thing right away - these suggestions will look like quite an increase on rewards to the tiers $500+, BUT what has to be remembered is, that these suggestions are created due to the comparison with people pledging multipe lower tiers. If a higher tier isn't capable of providing similar rewards with a slight bonus, people will stay on multiple lower tiers no matter what. So things like 450 boosters at a tier for $750 does look like an enormous jump, since the original tiers only provide 150 boosters, even at the producer tier. The problem is though, things like 450 boosters instead of 150 is excactly why people pledge for the lower tiers multiple times and they won't stop backing that way unless the higher tiers get similar attractive.

Furthermore by increasing the booster packages provided via the tiers, it is possible to drop the "1 or 4 of every non exclusive card in the game" addons in the highest tiers, which for me personally somehow decrease the playfun, since collection is such a great factor of the game. I'd rather have a dramatically higher amount of boosters instead of 4 of every card in the game.

My suggestions:

$500 Grand King Tier 2.0 version:
- 4 starter decks
- 300 Boosters
- 1 set exclusive cards
- Guild Master Perks
- Raid Leader Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Pro Player Perks
- Collector Perks

$750 Rare PvP Tier:
- 4 starter decks
- 450 Boosters
- 1 set exclusive cards
- 3 free drafts weekly for life
- No entry-fee to drafts for life
- Pro Player Sleeves

$750 Rare PvE Tier:
- 4 starter decks
- 450 boosters
- 2 sets exclusive cards
- Raidleader Perks
- Guild Master Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +50% extra loot drop from dungeon bosses for life
- 5% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon

$1000 Dragon Lord Tier 2.0:
- 4 starter decks
- 500 Boosters
- 2 sets exclusive cards
- Guild Master Perks
- Raid Leader Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Pro Player Perks
- Additional +1 free draft weekly for life
- Collector Perks
- 5% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- Vanity Card
- Dragon Lord Sleeves

$1.500 Epic PvP Tier:
- 4 starter decks
- 550 Boosters
- 1 set exclusive cards
- 4 free drafts weekly for life
- No entry-fee to drafts for life
- No entry-fee to tournaments for life
- Pro Player Sleeves

$1.500 Epic PvE Tier:
- 4 starter decks
- 550 boosters
- 3 sets exclusive cards
- Raidleader Perks
- Guild Master Perks
- Additional +5% PvE experience for all members for life
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +5 rare/legendary equipment items
- Additional +25% extra loot drop from dungeon bosses for life
- 10% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon

$2500 Primal Tier 2.0:
- 4 starter decks
- 600 Boosters
- 3 sets exclusive cards
- Guild Master Perks
- Raid Leader Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +10 rare/legendary equipment items
- Pro Player Perks
- Additional +2 free draft weekly for life
- Collector Perks
- 10% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- Vanity Card
- Primal Sleeves
- Custom Sleeves

$5000 Immortal Tier 2.0:
- 4 starter decks
- 650 Boosters
- 4 sets exclusive cards
- Guild Master Perks
- Raid Leader Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +15 rare/legendary equipment items
- Pro Player Perks
- Additional +3 free draft weekly for life
- Collector Perks
- 15% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- Vanity Card
- Immortal Sleeves
- Custom Sleeves
- Dungeon Theme Choice

$10000 Producer Tier 2.0:
- 4 starter decks
- 700 Boosters
- 4 sets exclusive cards
- Guild Master Perks
- Raid Leader Perks
- Dungeon Crawler Perks
- Additional +20 rare/legendary equipment items
- Pro Player Perks
- Additional +3 free draft weekly for life
- Collector Perks
- 15% chance on getting a random booster as a reward from completing a dungeon
- Vanity Card
- Producer Sleeves
- Dungeon Theme Choice
- Executive Producer Credits
- Design a card

d00dz
05-14-2013, 05:45 AM
Thanks for the ideas!

I do think that at the $1000 price point, 4 of every KS exclusive card should already be included as people could just pledge 4x Pro Player or GK + 2x Pro Player for the same net result. Remember GK already includes an extra set of the exclusives due to the Collector perks.

Also, I think the number of drafts really have to be increased in the higher tiers because its hard to compare with multiple free drafts for the lower net cost. And I believe that Primal, Immortal and Producer should get all the benefits of the tiers below them, and just keep the original X of every card or all equipment perks because I think some people are still interested in them. Without them, the huge price jump is pretty hard to justify.

Another idea is to have a commemorative plaque signed by the team for Immortal and Producer tiers. At those price points, something tangible for the player to display on a shelf would be gravy.

Kami
05-14-2013, 06:23 AM
Furthermore by increasing the booster packages provided via the tiers, it is possible to drop the "1 or 4 of every non exclusive card in the game" addons in the highest tiers, which for me personally somehow decrease the playfun, since collection is such a great factor of the game. I'd rather have a dramatically higher amount of boosters instead of 4 of every card in the game.

I disagree with this. Because this is a TCG, the real fun of having a full collection isn't the collection itself. It's the fact that it opens up an entire realm of theorycrafting decks. Not only that, for tiers below Producer, they are already limited to only Set 1 - there's no significant reason to strip this. And the Producer tier is already offset by a huge investment - it's pretty much enough to cover potentially twenty-five full sets (in comparison to boosters only, with very rough math and assuming you are very lucky).

For example, having a full four-of-each card in collection + equipment as an example would be incredibly fun just to play around with. Especially in casual multiplayer modes. Not to mention the guild bank would be awesome in the long run.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 06:36 AM
Well, thats something to discuss of course and only displays my own preference, Kami. My main goal was to participate in this discussion with some suggestions how to make it more appealing for players to back a single higher tier instead of all the multiple tiers right now. That is something I personally mainly see as a problem in the price range from $500 - $1.500. Primal, Immortal and Producer should come with unique rewards worth the expense anyway :)

Digital_Aether
05-14-2013, 06:52 AM
I disagree with this. Because this is a TCG, the real fun of having a full collection isn't the collection itself. It's the fact that it opens up an entire realm of theorycrafting decks.

Just voicing that I personally disagree. Theory crafting out of all the cards in the world is one kind of game, and I can see how it would be good fun for a a lot of people. That's not what I like to do though. Theory crafting what you can do with limited resources is a different kind of challenge. That's why people play draft, and it's why I want to collect cards, not have them. It's fun to try and scrape together a deck, and see what you can do not with perfect combos, but with crazy ideas and a strong understanding of the cards. It gives me a sense of progression too, to keep finding new cards. A new card might bring a whole new deck synergy about that I didn't have the day before, and I have more options and more experimentation left to do to see if that idea works well. This game is an MMO hybrid. Some people say "there is only end game". Others want to see their character grow and change, and be what they want the character to be. As a guy who's spent more time in Hillsbrad and STV than end game, I'm not the "end game only" kind of guy.

Edit: I totally forgot what the end game zones were even called... Outlands for BC? Lich king... it began with an A right? I totally still remember Hillsbrad foothills and stranglethorn vale, even the NPC's and maps and mobs, but I have no idea what end game had.

Kami
05-14-2013, 07:03 AM
But the thing is, even if you have a full collection, it does not mean you cannot set arbitrary limits on your deck.

Look at the various formats in games like MTGO. Rainbow, Singleton, Emperor, Pauper, etc.

Even if you have a full collection, that doesn't magically mean you will only make one deck and never experiment because somehow your deck is the end of all decks.

The end-game as I see it, is the ability to do anything/everything in the game. It's supposed to be a sandbox but without the 'sand', all you're left with is a box you have to fill-in first. I'd rather play with the sand in the box than fill in the box.

Besides, it's not like you're magically clearing dungeons or are insta-max level, etc. Competitions will always be a random-ish aspect too.

With a full collection, you're not limiting your end-game, in fact, you're expanding it. That's my perspective anyway.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 07:19 AM
The easy answer is if the free draft stacks so should all the other perks.

Then they just need to add packs to the higher tiers so that the cost of the donation is covered in the value of the packs.

Kami
05-14-2013, 07:25 AM
What is really needed:

1. More lifetime free drafts per week.
2. Full set of the KS exclusive cards.
3. More boosters... maybe.

#3 would be a maybe since it's still limited to only Set 1 and it's in a way offset by the custom stuff.

The drafts is a big one, especially for those who want to play competitively. And the KS exclusive cards as well since multiple lower tiers can get a least a full set compared to a single high tier.

If 1 and 2 are fixed/added, I'm fairly certain the top tiers will fill up incredibly fast - at least Dragon Lord anyway.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 07:32 AM
I agree with Kami, what's fun in a TCG is to not be limited on what you want/can play.
If you can fund having playsets of everything, your playtime is much better.

˜

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 07:37 AM
Maybe this is the wrong crowd, but it's fairly obvious to me that the structure of the tiers as currently set down is working quite well for CzE. Over 400k in pledges in less than a week, an insane hype, at least on these boards, for the future, etc. If the tier structure was broken, I'm sure that Cryptozoic would fix it. It obviously works for them. For those of us with limited resources to pledge, look at what there is and make your best call on what you want.

For me, the very idea of free drafts for life (when drafting, if it's anything like MTGO, is a MAJOR source of revenue) is mind blowing. To ask for MORE free stuff for life? Really? I am seeing a golden opportunity and taking it with all the gusto I've got! Thank you Crypto!

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 07:39 AM
You miss the point.
Pro Player Tier is very fine.
The argue is that people who pledge $1k tier should just pledge for 4 pro player tiers and it's possible.

It's just stupid

˜

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 07:43 AM
Stupid for who? Crypto? You? Are you saying that because you think that 4x pro player tier is a better investment that all the upper tiers should get compensation for that? If you want the upper tiers, Go for it. Same for the 4x pro player. It doesn't seem stupid for Crypto...they're making pledges hand over fist. You get a choice of what you want, so I'm not sure how it's stupid for you...

Maybe you're right...maybe I DON'T get it.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 07:45 AM
I went for GK cause Dragon Lord seemed lackluster.
This was before we knew we could stack pledges.
Only 1/3 of the backers know they can stack pledges (according on the likes on facebook, the few commenters on KS and the # of people on the board), that's a huge loss

˜

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 07:51 AM
The main issue is immortal - they need to make that one more attractive. If even one or two people pay into it, it is a huge gain compared to having none - that should be the first thing to focus on.

Kami
05-14-2013, 07:55 AM
The main issue is immortal - they need to make that one more attractive. If even one or two people pay into it, it is a huge gain compared to having none - that should be the first thing to focus on.

I would actually say Primal and Immortal need some love especially as they lag the most behind in terms of multiple lower tiers.

The only reason to tweak Producer is for at least completing the collection (i.e. full set of KS exclusive cards) but more drafts per week for life wouldn't be unwelcome.

Although kudos to those who buy-in to these three tiers the way they are now - imo, it means more than people trying to min-max for themselves.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 07:57 AM
You miss the point.
Pro Player Tier is very fine.
The argue is that people who pledge $1k tier should just pledge for 4 pro player tiers and it's possible.

It's just stupid

˜

Why?

The whole point of the rewards in to encourage donations. CZG doesn't care if they get 2 $250 donations or 1 $500 donation, and allowing stacking gets them people who are donating $750 instead of only $500, and other "in between" levels where they would most likely have gone with the lower level otherwise.

If they were worried about giving out too many free drafts they'd have said that the free draft doesn't stack (like they did with the XP and loot bonuses).

The only downside I see is increased support costs (getting everyone's account's straightened out), and the possibility that the KS caps for pro player are reached locking out some people who would have likes a free draft per week, in favor of someone who just had to have a third free draft per week. neither of which are a big deal to CZG (they wouldn't have offered to merge accounts if the support was a concern, and they wouldn't have put limits on the PP tier if they were against people getting locked out eventually)

Really the more I think about it the less I think they need to do anything about the stacking frenzy.

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 07:58 AM
Yeah, thats my point though - we dont have a single immortal pledge. something about it is a huge turnoff - so something should be done about it. Primal could use the same treatment though.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 08:00 AM
Why?

The whole point of the rewards in to encourage donations. CZG doesn't care if they get 2 $250 donations or 1 $500 donation, and allowing stacking gets them people who are donating $750 instead of only $500, and other "in between" levels where they would most likely have gone with the lower level otherwise.

If they were worried about giving out too many free drafts they'd have said that the free draft doesn't stack (like they did with the XP and loot bonuses).

The only downside I see is increased support costs (getting everyone's account's straightened out), and the possibility that the KS caps for pro player are reached locking out some people who would have likes a free draft per week, in favor of someone who just had to have a third free draft per week. neither of which are a big deal to CZG (they wouldn't have offered to merge accounts if the support was a concern, and they wouldn't have put limits on the PP tier if they were against people getting locked out eventually)

Really the more I think about it the less I think they need to do anything about the stacking frenzy.

The issue is for people who could give more, don't know about the stacking and stop at Grand King because the others seem too lackluster.
All my hardcore TCG friends are going for GK max cause the upper tiers suck and not cause they don't have the money.

˜

Kami
05-14-2013, 08:04 AM
The issue is for people who could give more, don't know about the stacking and stop at Grand King because the others seem too lackluster.
All my hardcore TCG friends are going for GK max cause the upper tiers suck and not cause they don't have the money.

˜

Yep.

There have already been several people who would've gone straight for DL or higher but instead spent it on 2-3 of the $250 tiers instead. That's a net loss of $250 or more of potential revenue each.

110 backers filling up the top few tiers would net $325k+ vs 1000 of the $250 tiers for $250k.

If you want to hit some of the stretch goals, chances are, you're going to need people filling in the top.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 08:07 AM
- so something should be done about it.

Once again, WHY? Just because 3 days into the campaign there's a spot that doesn't seem to be getting attention doesn't mean we should be worried about it. Immortal pledges will happen...or they won't. It doesn't matter. It's OK that Immortal and Primal don't have the pledge numbers. I would give my eye teeth to design a dungeon for this game, but my eye teeth aren't worth the cash it would take to do so. Someone else might have it. Once again it doesn't matter.

The true test of the matter is whether we'll be able to fund the project. DONE! And maybe have extra to make this game something special. DONE and DONE! Cryptozoic is winning, we are winning. Great fun to be had by all!

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 08:16 AM
Once again, WHY? Just because 3 days into the campaign there's a spot that doesn't seem to be getting attention doesn't mean we should be worried about it. Immortal pledges will happen...or they won't. It doesn't matter. It's OK that Immortal and Primal don't have the pledge numbers. I would give my eye teeth to design a dungeon for this game, but my eye teeth aren't worth the cash it would take to do so. Someone else might have it. Once again it doesn't matter.

The true test of the matter is whether we'll be able to fund the project. DONE! And maybe have extra to make this game something special. DONE and DONE! Cryptozoic is winning, we are winning. Great fun to be had by all!

Why NOT? They are trying to raise money to make the best game possible - if they lure people into spending that much, it will help. A LOT. And yes, it is only a few days in - 6/7 at the moment, with 20 something days left, but every tier bar one has had at least one pledge (even the one that costs DOUBLE.) I think there is something about it that is not appealing enough for the price.

So something should be done, in this specific case.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 08:21 AM
Why NOT? They are trying to raise money to make the best game possible - if they lure people into spending that much, it will help. A LOT. And yes, it is only a few days in - 6/7 at the moment, with 20 something days left, but every tier bar one has had at least one pledge (even the one that costs DOUBLE.) I think there is something about it that is not appealing enough for the price.

So something should be done, in this specific case.

Perhaps. Based on the rate at which the limited number of lower tier pledges are disappearing, I'm fairly certain it will all be all right in the end. Let's wait and see. I apologize for my own weaknesses here, but when someone demands that 'something be done', I get testy. Far too often in my experience, they want someone else to do it, and it messes me up somehow.

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 08:25 AM
My thoughts on this last night aimed lower, after looking at the imbalance between the $250 tiers. I think revamps should start there and flow upwards.

Collector should get "3 extra copies of each Exclusive!" instead of 1, for a full playset. Collectors want those cards.
Combine the Raid Leader and Dungeon Crawler tier bonuses. Both of these people are interested in PvE, give them all the PvE.
Guild Leader is the "lots of packs" tier, so bump them up to 5x 30 pack codes to match going double king. Then give each of those pack codes a Primal Pack as a bonus.
Doing those things will fix Grand King in my eyes, it's a harder choice between all those things or an extra draft by going 2x Pro.

At this point I think people are probably correct that there probably ought to be another PvP/PvE split on tier rewards. But if not, A second draft, a free subscription, and a playset of the Collector exclusive art for Dragon Lord, "No Draft Fees Ever" should probably be a $2500 tier goal, and at $5000 add in "Fee Free Everything."

Dragon Lord and up should be given more info on their exclusive cards. Promise their art will be in Set 2, but also promise them an early playset of their own card at launch (not yet PvP legal, but still darn cool). Tell producers you're going to give EVERY PLAYER a copy of their card when they join, and that card is going to have a big THANK YOU to them on it.

Beyond that, we're probably looking too much at the packs and drafts right now. Those higher tiers should get some awesome exclusive perks that aren't specifically about money. Brainstorm away on that.


:edit: Oh, and if someone is spending $250 or more, give them a free authenticator. It will save the company support costs later on. And if they're getting a custom art card, give them a nice print of it they can show off to their friends that don't play the game.

Digital_Aether
05-14-2013, 09:00 AM
Tinuvas- The pro player tier is a fantastic deal, and if people multi-pledging fill it, they can just add an extra pledge tier of it to kickstarter if they're okay with giving more out. That's on them to do the math for the business side of things to make sure those free players aren't hurting the bottom line too much. They don't need to change anything to take a good chunk of change from a lot of people and to go make a great game. I agree entirely about all of that. But a large single pledge can convince people to dig deeper than smaller pledges in multiples, as there's a large minimum. A guy stacking pro players can stop at 2 or 3, but Primal is equal to 10. 10 drafts a week would be outrageous though, because of how much time it would take. A person with $2500 available, who wants to play a lot of draft, has motivation to get a few pro players and stop rather than get the primal tier. This discussion is talking about that very specific case, trying to discuss ideas to throw money at the screen. The reason it's being had is because a number of us did hit that wall.

It isn't about saying they're going to do horrible if they don't emergency fix this asap, it's ideas to bring in that particular demographic better. The game's already about 150% funded, and we're looking forward to playing it for a long time. We get that. It doesn't mean that CZE doesn't want to hit all 15 stretch goals though. Discussing the notion of changes is trying to find mutually beneficial goals, not something to get upset about. Some people will ask for the moon, sure, but I trust CZE to know well enough when to say no. And maybe there isn't any better solution for that group than how it already is too. I don't think there's much harm in talk though.

Kami
05-14-2013, 09:07 AM
Well, apparently in a previous phone call, Cory had stated that they're looking into solutions for this issue.

Multi-pledging to this degree wasn't factored in when they made the decision originally to allow it it seems. But at the same time, backtracking on that would piss a lot of people off.

I think the silence in terms of what they intend to do with the higher tiers to balance out multiple low pledges versus a single large pledge is due to the fact they have to be very careful how they approach this.

You also have to keep in mind that even though the higher tiers get to make 'custom' stuff, the custom stuff trickles down to ALL the players in the game eventually so they benefit as well. Whereas stuff like multiple free drafts is only beneficial to a single individual.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 09:09 AM
...But a large single pledge can convince people to dig deeper than smaller pledges in multiples, as there's a large minimum...

...This discussion is talking about that very specific case, trying to discuss ideas to throw money at the screen. The reason it's being had is because a number of us did hit that wall...

...it's ideas to bring in that particular demographic better...

...Some people will ask for the moon, sure, but I trust CZE to know well enough when to say no...

...I don't think there's much harm in talk though...

Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. I need to get my own personal politics out of the equation and quit getting grumpy when people ask for more free stuff. We're all trying for the same goal I think, and I do agree that if we can get more people to pledge more $, it will be more fun for us in the end. Note to me: wet blanket isn't the answer. Bring on the ideas!

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 09:20 AM
More "free" stuff when talking about 1K+ pledges?
Rofl

~

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 09:26 AM
Tinuvas- The pro player tier is a fantastic deal

If and only if you play drafts. Remember to actually get the cards you need to enter a limited tournament. Even if you just rare-draft and quit you still invested some time in that action (and probably endured some verbal abuse for doing so). And you can only get PvP cards that way.

For a PvE player with no interest in PvP that's much less valuable than double loot from bosses, who drop PvE cards, gold to buy more cards, and equipment, and will be encountered over the coarse of playing PvE.

I think the PvP reward chain is getting more attention now because the PvE side hasn't really hit it's mark yet. Perhaps a larger focus on those elements in marketing material would be good.

As for how to make the tiers more attractive:
Collector and above should likely get a playlet of the KS exclusives.
Guild Master and above should instead of 3x 30 pack codes get 3x codes to redeem a captain tier package.

Dragon Lord and above should get a scaling increase to the odds of getting primal packs when they open a booster.

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 09:27 AM
The issue is for people who could give more, don't know about the stacking and stop at Grand King because the others seem too lackluster.
All my hardcore TCG friends are going for GK max cause the upper tiers suck and not cause they don't have the money.

˜

Yup.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 09:29 AM
For a PvE player with no interest in PvP that's much less valuable than double loot from bosses, who drop PvE cards, gold to buy more cards, and equipment, and will be encountered over the coarse of playing PvE.

Thing is you don't spend 1K+ for PvE.
You do it for PvP where they'll be prize support

~

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 09:32 AM
As for how to make the tiers more attractive:
Collector and above should likely get a playlet of the KS exclusives.
Guild Master and above should instead of 3x 30 pack codes get 3x codes to redeem a captain tier package.

Dragon Lord and above should get a scaling increase to the odds of getting primal packs when they open a booster.

Giving Guild Master pledge codes that include starters is a pretty good idea, it encourages the "spread the wealth" design of the tier. And better Primal Pack odds is a great reward design. It encourages further spending, and it lasts forever. The first is lacking in most rewards, and the second is the part that really draws pledges. More down-the-road benefits are what need to be added to really make some of the reward tiers pop.

:edit:
Thing is you don't spend 1K+ for PvE.
You do it for PvP where they'll be prize support

~

That's a complete mischaracterization. Most of my CCG friends dump tons into M:tG without ever participating in drafts or tournaments for example. I've tried and tried to show them the error of their ways in just cracking whole boxes at a time, but it's what they want. CZE should be catering to those players just as they should the hardcore PvPers.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 09:50 AM
More "free" stuff when talking about 1K+ pledges?
Rofl

~

As the old story goes, lady had an appliance repair man over. He was trying to sell her on 'free' service by buying into their warranty program. She keeps trying to find the 'free' in 'paid service'. In exasperation he finally says, "Lady, if you want something free, you're going to have to pay for it!". Yup.

Maybe 'free' isn't the right turn of phrase...

Blare731
05-14-2013, 09:56 AM
- No entry-fee to drafts for life

That is ridiculous, it is much better for them to give you an extra draft per week than this. This means you will never have to pay for a tournament ever. That is likely not something they will put up.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 09:56 AM
That's a complete mischaracterization. Most of my CCG friends dump tons into M:tG without ever participating in drafts or tournaments for example. I've tried and tried to show them the error of their ways in just cracking whole boxes at a time, but it's what they want. CZE should be catering to those players just as they should the hardcore PvPers.

It's also exactly what I mean when I say that PvE hasn't been marketed well up until now. Most of the forum posters appear to be people looking at PvE like the campaign mode in Starcraft, when it's designed to be more like raiding in WoW with a complex branching storyline where choices matter.

A lot of the value dissonance between stacking PP tiers vs going for higher tiers is whether or not you think "playing drafts" is equivalent to "playing Hex". Personally I'm expecting to get more use from the double loot reward than from the free tournament reward (Because I expect to split my time between PvP and PvE, and there's no way I'll be sitting in on a draft every single week)

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 09:56 AM
In terms of tier balance:
The worst tier probably goes to Collector.
For the low cost of another King pledge, you receive a second set of KS exclusives and 6 alternate art PvP cards a year and sleeves.
So...you trade 150 boosters and 4 starters for 6 cards/year. Those must be some cards.

Question: Will Dungeon Crawler affect players your grouped with (or just you), and will Raid leader affect yourself (or just those you are grouped with)?

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 09:57 AM
It's also exactly what I mean when I say that PvE hasn't been marketed well up until now. Most of the forum posters appear to be people looking at PvE like the campaign mode in Starcraft, when it's designed to be more like raiding in WoW with a complex branching storyline where choices matter.

A lot of the value dissonance between stacking PP tiers vs going for higher tiers is whether or not you think "playing drafts" is equivalent to "playing Hex". Personally I'm expecting to get more use from the double loot reward than from the free tournament reward (Because I expect to split my time between PvP and PvE, and there's no way I'll be sitting in on a draft every single week)

Well, they haven't released any thing besides gameplay videos, and the details are sparse. It feels too vague to be excited about.

Blare731
05-14-2013, 09:58 AM
It's also exactly what I mean when I say that PvE hasn't been marketed well up until now. Most of the forum posters appear to be people looking at PvE like the campaign mode in Starcraft, when it's designed to be more like raiding in WoW with a complex branching storyline where choices matter.

A lot of the value dissonance between stacking PP tiers vs going for higher tiers is whether or not you think "playing drafts" is equivalent to "playing Hex". Personally I'm expecting to get more use from the double loot reward than from the free tournament reward (Because I expect to split my time between PvP and PvE, and there's no way I'll be sitting in on a draft every single week)

I think you are completely right, but I think people want the option to do more a week. Like for instance, I know for sure that the first week I'm going to do 2 or 3 maybe more. But after a couple weeks, 1 free tournament per week will be fine.

Blare731
05-14-2013, 09:59 AM
In terms of tier balance:
The worst tier probably goes to Collector.
For the low cost of another King pledge, you receive a second set of KS exclusives and 6 alternate art PvP cards a year and sleeves.
So...you trade 150 boosters and 4 starters for 6 cards/year. Those must be some cards.

Question: Will Dungeon Crawler affect players your grouped with (or just you), and will Raid leader affect yourself (or just those you are grouped with)?

I don't know about the dungeon crawler, but the raid leader affects everyone in the raid.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:00 AM
In terms of tier balance:
The worst tier probably goes to Collector.
For the low cost of another King pledge, you receive a second set of KS exclusives and 6 alternate art PvP cards a year and sleeves.
So...you trade 150 boosters and 4 starters for 6 cards/year. Those must be some cards.


Well the total number of the AA cards in existence is limited to the number of collector and above pledges. So they will be exceedingly rare. That makes them valuable in trade to well... collectors.

Digital_Aether
05-14-2013, 10:02 AM
Question: Will Dungeon Crawler affect players your grouped with (or just you), and will Raid leader affect yourself (or just those you are grouped with)?

Raid leader effects the group, dungeon crawler does not. Source: I messaged them asking about it.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 10:04 AM
Well the total number of the AA cards in existence is limited to the number of collector and above pledges. So they will be exceedingly rare. That makes them valuable in trade to well... collectors.

It's fine as a bonus for GK, it seems weak as a $250 tier by itself.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 10:05 AM
Raid leader effects the group, dungeon crawler does not. Source: I messaged them asking about it.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you happen to know if raid leader affect you in solo PvE content?

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:06 AM
I think you are completely right, but I think people want the option to do more a week. Like for instance, I know for sure that the first week I'm going to do 2 or 3 maybe more. But after a couple weeks, 1 free tournament per week will be fine.

There's no ambiguity. it's obvious some people want more free drafts per week. In fact it's been easily the most popular single reward and the primary drive behind the "stacking craze". You don't see anyone talking about how they pledges 3X Collector or 3X Guild Master, or even Dungeon Crawler and Collector. It's all 3x Pro Player, or GK+ Pro Player

I just think some people are getting tunnel vision and forgetting that it's free drafts in a use it or loose it format, not just free packs, and forget that the game is designed to be 50% PvE, with non-tournament PvP as well. There is a much larger design space than "moar free tourneys" to work with.

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:08 AM
I just think some people are getting tunnel vision and forgetting that it's free drafts in a use it or loose it format, not just free packs, and forget that the game is designed to be 50% PvE, with non-tournament PvP as well. There is a much larger design space than "moar free tourneys" to work with.

You also forget that currently, there's no penalty for joining a draft, cherry-picking cards, and leaving the draft. That's three free boosters with little time commitment/effort for life which includes future sets. Not to mention the fact that PvP cards can be used in PvE.

However, for some of us, yes, we do actually want to play competitively more.

Digital_Aether
05-14-2013, 10:10 AM
I'm not entirely sure about that. I think how it works, is it's a card that's added to your deck. If go into a raid group, everyone gets one put into play at the start. In solo content I think you'd have to draw it and play it (costs 0) like usual.

bladedragonfire
05-14-2013, 10:12 AM
I'm with Kami, I love drafting, and 2 a week? For life? FOR FREE? And if they make it so you can invite friends, I could draft with all my old high school buddies who have moved away?! Done.

Malakili
05-14-2013, 10:17 AM
You also forget that currently, there's no penalty for joining a draft, cherry-picking cards, and leaving the draft. That's three free boosters with little time commitment/effort for life which includes future sets. Not to mention the fact that PvP cards can be used in PvE.

However, for some of us, yes, we do actually want to play competitively more.

This is an issue with every draft format ever. There is nothing special about this in Hex.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:18 AM
You also forget that currently, there's no penalty for joining a draft, cherry-picking cards, and leaving the draft. That's three free boosters with little time commitment/effort for life which includes future sets. Not to mention the fact that PvP cards can be used in PvE.

However, for some of us, yes, we do actually want to play competitively more.

No I fully understand the concepts here.

My point is that you are not the entirety of the target audience for Hex (neither am I). More free drafts is a fine reward but does suffer diminished returns, and unless you plan on actually playing in the tournament, rare-drafting and dropping is a lot of effort to put into getting cards (not to mention getting a reputation for doing so could be problematic, and that the cards you get are from the PvP set not the PvE set).

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:19 AM
This is an issue with every draft format ever. There is nothing special about this in Hex.

There is in this case. The reason being that in every draft format, you typically have to buy-in with boosters and entry fee. With the free drafts perk, you have no cost to yourself.

Er, but my point is, additional ability to play in more competitions is worthwhile.

I mean, if I'm going to drop down $1K+, should I really need to drop down another $250 to play more drafts for life? Because someone who drops down $1250 purely on Pro Tier would play five times a week. (Not to mention all the KS Exclusive stuff that would be extremely rare/valuable in the future).

Long story short, there just needs to be a bit of balance. I'm not arguing that multi-pledging is bad but lack of balance is.

(I'd also argue that unless you are willing to pledge $1K+, it doesn't really matter to you since your commitment is not as substantial - not to make light of your existing commitment.)

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 10:28 AM
There is in this case. The reason being that in every draft format, you typically have to buy-in with boosters and entry fee. With the free drafts perk, you have no cost to yourself.

You're still buying in, just at a discount that gets absurd after enough time. Anyway, it's a vanishly small number of draft seats out of what the game should see in a week, and the vast majority of those will actually be playing their drafts anyway. Raredrafting and dropping is a totally reasonable thing that only helps the rest of those at the table earn extra prizes in the rare situations where it happens. It's a nonisssue as far as I can see.

Agreed with the general sentiment that we don't really see the PvE game that CZE does yet, while we're all familiar with drafts and constructed tournaments. It's just easier to understand the scope of those bonuses. Personally, I'm questioning the design decision to keep PvE-earned cards PvE-only. A few PvP drops would help out the f2p folk in competitive play and make the PvE tiers more tempting. I guess it's a simplicity thing, so players don't really have to look at the card to know where it can and can't be used.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 10:30 AM
Grand King is fine, and Dragon Lord you're basically paying for the vanity card.
Primal and up are the tiers that's poorly incentivized.
They should at least include stuff like signed artwork/cards.

Oh, there's an idea. Add a signature of the artist onto the doubleback (or even front?) of each card at Dragon King+.

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:32 AM
Agreed with the general sentiment that we don't really see the PvE game that CZE does yet, while we're all familiar with drafts and constructed tournaments. It's just easier to understand the scope of those bonuses. Personally, I'm questioning the design decision to keep PvE-earned cards PvE-only. A few PvP drops would help out the f2p folk in competitive play and make the PvE tiers more tempting. I guess it's a simplicity thing, so players don't really have to look at the card to know where it can and can't be used.

I'm reasonably certain it's a balance issue. With PvE they can go 'bonkers', as Cory put it, with the game mechanics. OP combos, crazy cards, etc. would be possible in PvE but totally broken in PvP.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 10:34 AM
Well, I think they want to sandbox the PvE card's "PvP" into guild warfare.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:36 AM
Agreed with the general sentiment that we don't really see the PvE game that CZE does yet, while we're all familiar with drafts and constructed tournaments. It's just easier to understand the scope of those bonuses. Personally, I'm questioning the design decision to keep PvE-earned cards PvE-only. A few PvP drops would help out the f2p folk in competitive play and make the PvE tiers more tempting. I guess it's a simplicity thing, so players don't really have to look at the card to know where it can and can't be used.

Actually as I understand it the PvP/PvE split on cards is mainly to keep unbalanced PvE cards out of the PvP metagame.

I believe they've said that you can use PvP cards (cards from boosters) in PvE, but that the cards that drop in PvE are from a different set that is not legal for PvP (presumably for balance reasons).

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 10:45 AM
I get keeping the unbalanced PvE cards out of PvP. The decision to only drop PvE cards in PvE is a different decision.

:edit: Yes Turtlewing, the whole PvP set is usable in PvE. That's one of the reasons it seems odd to not let any of those cards come from PvE drops. If you get a PvP card in PvE, it's something you can use in more than one place which is a nice little bonus.

The more I think about this, the more I'm confused by something. Where's the monetization of PvE, where do they make money from those players? They're forced to buy packs/do fee PvP/trade for the PvP set if they want it, but DO they want it? If the PvE drops are so much more powerful, why would they? PvE seems like a totally separate game where you can import a copy of your PvP collection, but nothing ever comes out. I feel like it should tie back into PvP in a non-vital but useful way, both to make the game more cohesive and to gently encourage varied play. A PvE'er won't be entering many tournaments if he has to go out of his way to buy packs to build a PvP deck, but if he gets a PvP drop now and then in raids maybe he'll want to pay a buck to see how he does in a constructed tournament. It lowers barrier to entry.

Kami
05-14-2013, 10:48 AM
I get keeping the unbalanced PvE cards out of PvP. The decision to only drop PvE cards in PvE is a different decision.

I'm sure that has to do with the Free-to-Play aspect of PvE. If they were to drop PvP cards, it would neuter the economy for PvP.

However, there is nothing preventing PvE players from trading PvE cards for PvP cards.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 10:49 AM
I get keeping the unbalanced PvE cards out of PvP. The decision to only drop PvE cards in PvE is a different decision.

I expect its to encourage PvE-ers to buy boosters.

Brewdinar
05-14-2013, 11:07 AM
Those objections seem solvable by tuning what can drop, where, and how often. I was imagining PvP commons could be a rare random bonus drop, with some uncommons possible at the end of each dungeon, and some rares possible from raids. Then again, maybe it's a lot of work to encourage the more varied play I think it would lead to, and while I think it could bring in more income (people need to break a mental barrier to go from free to play to pay to play, and making that barrier smaller such as by only asking for a $1 entry fee can help) I can definitely accept that it's not as cost effective as just churning out more content.

houjix
05-14-2013, 11:11 AM
I'm sure you will see PVP commons and maybe some uncommons going for gold at the AH, or at least for very little platinum. And as Kami said trading PVE for PVP is a viable option too. I don't want to see PVP drop in PVE.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:25 AM
I'm sure you will see PVP commons and maybe some uncommons going for gold at the AH, or at least for very little platinum. And as Kami said trading PVE for PVP is a viable option too. I don't want to see PVP drop in PVE.

As I don't want PvE cards when I win a tourney :D

~

houjix
05-14-2013, 11:32 AM
As I don't want PvE cards when I win a tourney :D

~

99% agree. If it's a tourney that allows PVE cards, I would like some of the prizes to be PVE related.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 02:42 PM
I'm wondering if people with multiple pledges will get the rewards for the stretch goals (primal packs at 490k, free soft sub for 3 months at 540k f.x.) several times as well, even if they merge. I see this becoming an issue for a lot of people if not, because they will argue, that they did pledge several tiers, so they should get a reward for each tier as well.

I somehow feel this might get tricky and I really hope this doesn't create too much drama, since CZE already was very kind to even allow multiple lower tiers to somehow individualize your pledges towards your preferred gamestyle.

Kami
05-14-2013, 02:48 PM
If some of those stretch bonuses did stack, that would just make the upper tiers even less favorable to most people.

I'm still waiting to see if CZE will bolster the top tiers at all.

Daer
05-14-2013, 02:51 PM
Stretch goals could be given per account. If you're merging 3 Pro Players into one account you only get 1 set of stretch goals.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 02:54 PM
If some of those stretch bonuses did stack, that would just make the upper tiers even less favorable to most people.

I agree. I'm just wondering, that since we already have people pledging for multiple tiers, if NOT allowing those to stack will simply create an environment of backers using several accounts seperated and move everything to one account manually. Lets say you pledged for one $250 tier three times, if stretch goal rewards don't stack you will lose
- 2 out of 3 primal packs
- 8 out of 12 boosters from the subscription
- 2 out of 3 times the extra PvE cards
- 10 out of 15 boosters from the 490k stretch goal
and this is only from the first 6 stretch goals. We will reach more, thats for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people keeping their multiple accounts, if you see how much value that means. And closing the can of worms that is multiple pledges isn't possible anymore. That would be a huge blow to the reputation of CZE. So somehow we need to find a solution to address these problems :(

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Daer: That doesn't stop people from making multiple king pledges and trading everything over, which makes higher tiers even LESS favorable.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 02:57 PM
Stretch goals could be given per account. If you're merging 3 Pro Players into one account you only get 1 set of stretch goals.

If they do it that way they'll get complaining customers.

Most likely how they're going to implement the KS rewards is they will send you a redeemable code to the email address they have for you (from your KS or pay pal account). Then you enter that code and your account is credited the rewards. If you pledge multiple tiers you'll get multiple codes which should "just work" but if something goes wrong you'll call customer support to get it straightened out.

With that model it would take more work to make the stretch goal exclusives 1 per account. And as their reward they'll get more support calls from people who expected to get multiple copies there's not a lot of reason to do that extra work.

Daer
05-14-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't think it is really a huge issue since everything above King is limited in number anyway. 1000 Pro Players with 1 accounts is the same as 250 Pro Players with 4 accounts. It just concentrates the 'wealth' a bit more. Once Pro Player sells out people will move on to buying other tiers and higher tiers are the only way to get the benefits of Pro Player after it sells out.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 03:01 PM
I still think more people are going to be interested in multiple Kings rather than higher tiers.

Kami
05-14-2013, 03:03 PM
It's not so much the concentration of wealth that's the issue. It's more the fact that a single large concentration of wealth (e.g. 1K for Dragon Lord) nets less KS card exclusives, less drafts, less boosters, and less of nearly everything except a single Vanity card in comparison to 4x Pro Tier (as an example). Not to mention the fact that you can win prizes with your free drafts and earn more on future sets.

It's like a reverse pyramid, race to the bottom, so to speak.

Edit: While I would definitely like to see improvement in the top tiers to balance it out, if it is what it is, then it is what it is.

Showsni
05-14-2013, 03:12 PM
Well, there is one thing multiple lower tier pledges can never get - high tier sleeves!

I guess you people are making a tempting argument, though. Would it be better to get two Pro Players or one High King if I prefer drafting to PvE? Hmm...

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 03:15 PM
I think you have to look at the Dragon Lord and above tiers differently. They're not about getting a better deal on cards they're about getting an increasing level of creative control over the game your helping to fund.

And again, it's not really a big deal that people are more interested in multiple stacks of lower tiers than in single stacks of higher tiers unless they choose to spend less total cash because of it. And even then it's more a loss for people who want the stretch goals than for CZG as they can sell packs to anyone who has more money to spend post launch.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 03:16 PM
I actually really like the King card sleeves.

There's also the alternative of extra King pledges instead of a second Pro Player pledge.
Atm, it takes about 50 weeks for the Pro Player's benefit to 'pay off' over a double King pledge.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 03:20 PM
I actually really like the King card sleeves.

There's also the alternative of extra King pledges instead of a second Pro Player pledge.
Atm, it takes about 50 weeks for the Pro Player's benefit to 'pay off' over a double King pledge.

The main thing about the pro player, vs extra king tier packs is that king tier packs are all set 1. Whereas when sets 2, 3, etc come out pro player will still be generating cards for you, but if you went double King you'll have to buy new packs to keep current.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 03:25 PM
The main thing about the pro player, vs extra king tier packs is that king tier packs are all set 1. Whereas when sets 2, 3, etc come out pro player will still be generating cards for you, but if you went double King you'll have to buy new packs to keep current.

Yes, 1+year down the line (I doubt sets will be released much faster than every 4-6 months, but I might be wrong), Pro player will be a better investment, but it's still at least a fair trade off for the extra set of promo cards and the lotus garden, whose values will only go up as time goes on.

d00dz
05-14-2013, 04:45 PM
With the inclusion of a monthly subscription (including a tournament with another entry fee) I think Dragon Lord and higher tiers should get lifetime subs. It's only a few boosters anyway, not gonna hurt.

Immortal (which NEEDS a serious upgrade) and producer should get free tournament and event entries for life for the huge investment they are putting in. The subscription fees for the life of the game won't even reach $5,000.00. (equivalent to 104 years LOL)

Vibraxus
05-14-2013, 05:13 PM
I pledged my GK prior to knowing I could stack. The GK perks are nice, but somebody stacking 2 pros get twice the cards and twice the booster drafts for the same price, it seems a bit crazy. Not to mention how the higher tiers seem even less and less appealing now. What could be done would be something like this starting at DK level

DK perks plus pick 1 in addition to existing perks:
2 extra starters and 100 extra boosters
1 extra draft/week for life (Maybe just 2 extra a month)
5 extra % drop rate
or 1 extra rare set

Then as the tiers go up you could make the card draw more appealing to the higher tiers, so like Dragon Lord gets Pick 1:
6 extra starters 450 boosters
1 extra weekly draft
15% extra drop rate
2 extra rare sets

Or you could have Dragon and above get accordingly

Their set perks plus pick 3 in any combo:
2 extra starters and 100 extra boosters
1 extra draft/week for life
5 extra % drop rate
or 1 extra rare set

So a Dragon Lord could combine that pick 3 to get 2 extra drafts a wee, and 2 extra starters and 100 extra boosters

This way the higher tiers get the special perks, but dont get the total card draw of the stackers, yet they get some bonus stack.

Hope that makes sense, and I think it would make it more fair.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 05:22 PM
Unfortunately, it's too late now to change the text on the tiers. KS doesn't allow it.
I think the tiers are complicated enough without adding a "pick x of the following:" tacked onto the main page or in an update.

Vibraxus
05-14-2013, 05:49 PM
Did my post on or about page 11 get deleted? I dont see it anymore. I had a possible solution that I havent seen yet in the thread. Just wondering....