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fiftyvolts
05-12-2013, 11:41 PM
Now that your're in the stretch goals for the kickstarter, is there any possibility of having a stretch goal for linux support? I think that there is demand for a high quality game like this on the platform and I'm thinking that there would be motivated individuals willing to contribute to the campaign (myself included) if this were a possibility.

SOIMiMozO
05-21-2013, 07:38 PM
I suggested that too, but with no success so far. So I guess we are getting nothing...

ramseytheory
05-21-2013, 07:52 PM
If they don't have a Linux developer on the team right now, they have no hope of training one up and getting a port working in time for release. Time doesn't always translate to money in a software development context, sadly. :( The good news is that since they've got a Mac version it probably will be feasible at some point in the future - I'm certainly looking forward to it.

Digital_Aether
05-21-2013, 08:00 PM
Odds are, since it was designed to be multi-platform, it was built with unity. I doubt it would have much of a problem running under WINE. Also, VM solutions like Oracle's Virtual Box might be suitable too, as it shouldn't be too graphically intense. I have every intention of doing something like for my laptop, and I would use a Linux client if one was available. I don't think it's necessarily a good return on investment for them though. WINE is not an emulator, it's running native binaries that replicate DLL libraries which gives a solid performance usually.

If you want official support for the platform, it's more than just throwing a compile flag and calling it a day. Paying for one programmer to spend half his time on supporting the Linux version could easily run $50k a year, and if the game lasts as long as they hope, that can end up being quite a lot of money. There's no good reason to think there's a solid return on investment just because a couple guys mention it on a forum. Also, a bad port could have the opposite effect, and reflect poorly on them or even destabilize the servers.

Qorsair
05-21-2013, 09:51 PM
If they can get a solid Linux port, I would be thrilled.
That being said, I doubt it's worth the time or investment unless Valve's Steam box ever takes off (also assuming CZE wants to get involved with Steam).

Tyrfang
05-21-2013, 09:56 PM
I think that Cryptozoic would see a MUCH better ROI from XBLA, PS Marketplace/PS Vita, and Wii U/3DS before Linux.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-22-2013, 12:09 AM
Time doesn't always translate to money in a software development context, sadly. :(

See also: "The mythical man-month", for an interesting take on software development and how throwing more resources at an issue will not necessarily mean it'll be resolved faster.

MasterPlan
05-22-2013, 12:17 AM
At this point, its my gut feeling that they will not have linux support for open beta, or are going to commit to it. I think at this point trying to get everything ready for open beta (spit and polish) is going to be more of a priority than a port to another platform. I think they are better off working on andriod/ios port's first cause lets face it even if you run linux on your pc you probably have a smart phone/tablet running windows/android/ios.

Deathfog
05-22-2013, 12:21 AM
Xbox One support would probably be doable, but MS would expect a hefty due. Would be really fun to play this using the Kinect 2 and not even needing a mouse/keyboard.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 03:57 AM
Oh, the Xbox One can play games? Didn't realize.... :P (disappointed by that presentation)

So, the problem with consoles is that they can charge $!0,000 to review changes to your game for each and every system update. An MMO like this will probably have a number of updates over time as they add features, and the maintenance fees alone would be brutal. That being said, Microsoft and Sony have been taking a lot of heat for those kinds of horrible update fees, so that might come down this generation. Currently though, it would need a really big base on consoles to pay for it.

Marsden
05-22-2013, 04:14 AM
I honestly wouldn't want them to waste dev time on a Linux version.

katkillad
05-22-2013, 04:19 AM
I honestly wouldn't want them to waste dev time on a Linux version.

Quoting for truth. Not trying to be a jerk, but if they unveiled the Legendary stretch goal and it had the words Linux in it i'd probably drop my pledge. I want them to do whatever to have this game ready asap.

Popiute
05-22-2013, 04:30 AM
I agree. No need for linux version. An Android/IOS version would be more useful.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-22-2013, 04:33 AM
I honestly wouldn't want them to waste dev time on a Linux version.

To be honest, despite many claims of "the year of Linux on the desktop" there really is next-to-no market for games on Linux.

For those running Linux: please not that I did not say there is no market, just that the market for those wanting to play games on Linux is truly teeny-tiny.

SOIMiMozO
05-23-2013, 10:49 PM
Steam.
February.
MacOS 3.07%
Linux 2.02%, not counting those who use Windows version with Wine.
Teeny-tiny?
Why do we have MacOS version then?

TheBlueMagician
05-23-2013, 10:52 PM
Steam.
January.
MacOS 3.07%
Linux 2.02%, not counting those who use Windows version with Wine.
Teeny-tiny?
Why do we have MacOS version then?

Because there are more people who use Macs and could download the client than there are people who use Linux period. Steam numbers are pointless, because Gamer != Hex Gamer, and Hex Gamer != Gamer, necessarily. User base for Mac is much larger, and much more ubiquitous.

SOIMiMozO
05-23-2013, 10:59 PM
Because there are more people who use Macs and could download the client than there are people who use Linux period. Steam numbers are pointless, because Gamer != Hex Gamer, and Hex Gamer != Gamer, necessarily. User base for Mac is much larger, and much more ubiquitous.
User base is even more !=Hex gamer, pal.

SOIMiMozO
05-23-2013, 11:04 PM
They could make a stretch goal for Linux, with a promise to do it later in the year, if they are uncertain about their ability to make it in time. And get some money from Linux users as well by doing that...

TheBlueMagician
05-23-2013, 11:08 PM
User base is even more !=Hex gamer, pal.

Yeah, it's called trying to expand your audience. Same reason Hex has tablet support.

So do you develop for a platform with relatively few people, or one with a lot of people? Which has more of a chance of drawing in more people who were previously uninterested?

There are a lot of people who use Mac, therefor it makes sense to make Hex available on the Mac to try to encourage people who might not have tried TCGs before to test their hand at it. There are not a lot of people on Linux, relative to the number on Mac, so it'd be sort of a missed opportunity if they developed a Linux version and not a Mac version.

Also, probably because iOS/Apple development is something people specialize in because there is a huge market for it, so they had someone who could do that from the get-go. Linux gaming is...basically Windows gaming, because hardly anyone develops Linux exclusive titles. Because hardly anyone uses Linux for personal use, relative to Windows and Mac.

SOIMiMozO
05-23-2013, 11:18 PM
Expanding your auditory by adding people who never play games? Good luck.
Steam users numbers are much more close to the true here, I think.

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 11:30 PM
Steam.
February.
MacOS 3.07%
Linux 2.02%, not counting those who use Windows version with Wine.
Teeny-tiny?
Why do we have MacOS version then?

Aren't those statistics more representative of Steam's market penetration than desktop gaming OS?

I only know 1 MacOS gamer who uses Steam besides myself, and I'm not entirely sure he even uses it on his OS X box, most either get the game directly from the publisher, or use the App Store.

I don't know of any Linux "gamer" who doesn't use Steam, since it's probably the one of the best-known sources for games on the platform.

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 05:38 AM
A LOT of gamers use steam. It is a fact. So if you want numbers of active players - it is better to look at steam, rather than on raw user quantity, I think.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 05:55 AM
30% to Valvo though.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-24-2013, 06:40 AM
Steam.
February.
MacOS 3.07%
Linux 2.02%, not counting those who use Windows version with Wine.
Teeny-tiny?
Why do we have MacOS version then?

As Qorsair says: because the Mac App Store probably pulls in a lot more customers on the OS X platform than Steam does.

ramseytheory
05-24-2013, 07:18 AM
There are a few more points which are worth noting:

- Mac OS and Linux are pretty similar deep down. It's a lot easier to port something to Linux from Mac than it is to port it to Mac from PC.

- If you look at e.g. Humble Bundle sales, there's good evidence that Linux users are willing to pay more for quality games than either PC or Mac users. (It's a pay-what-you-want thing, and IIRC we pay about twice as much on average.)

- Valve is putting a lot of effort into attacking Windows 8 and pushing Linux as gaming platforms, which makes sense since Microsoft is trying to muscle in on their turf with the Windows Store. So it has some pretty hefty growth potential.

I'd say that while Linux support is nowhere near as important as tablet support, it would still be very nice to see it at some point after launch.

elsimer
05-24-2013, 01:41 PM
There are a few more points which are worth noting:

- Mac OS and Linux are pretty similar deep down. It's a lot easier to port something to Linux from Mac than it is to port it to Mac from PC.

- If you look at e.g. Humble Bundle sales, there's good evidence that Linux users are willing to pay more for quality games than either PC or Mac users. (It's a pay-what-you-want thing, and IIRC we pay about twice as much on average.)

- Valve is putting a lot of effort into attacking Windows 8 and pushing Linux as gaming platforms, which makes sense since Microsoft is trying to muscle in on their turf with the Windows Store. So it has some pretty hefty growth potential.

I'd say that while Linux support is nowhere near as important as tablet support, it would still be very nice to see it at some point after launch.

maybe at some point, but at the same time depending on how tablet support is handled your average Linux user can probably fire up a tablet emulator (I know of one company whose 'Android' content is dictated solely on the user-agent given by the HTTP request)

Talreth
05-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Devs already said they weren't looking at Linux.

Edit: A three page thread that is answered entirely by two lines in a sticky.

Q: Linux support?
A: No current plans for Linux support, I'm afraid

Madican
05-24-2013, 02:38 PM
Let's be honest, Linux is a niche market. OSX has iPads and iPhones for the masses. Linux is mostly for the real computer nerds since it's not user-friendly at all. It's not even meant for personal use really, its true strength is being used for products and systems with an embedded OS the user can't touch. Things like alarm clocks, car computers, traffic systems, etc.

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 07:43 PM
Let's be honest, Linux is a niche market. OSX has iPads and iPhones for the masses. Linux is mostly for the real computer nerds since it's not user-friendly at all. It's not even meant for personal use really, its true strength is being used for products and systems with an embedded OS the user can't touch. Things like alarm clocks, car computers, traffic systems, etc.

Oooookay pal.

Talreth
05-24-2013, 08:14 PM
Oooookay pal.

Really? How many tons of gamers do you know that use linux?

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 08:26 PM
I know 2% of Steam. I know all those people on WineDB. I know all those people on almost every game forum, who are trying to run their favorite games on their favorite OS. And the numbers aren't much fewer than for Mac OS.

Talreth
05-24-2013, 08:28 PM
I know 2% of Steam. I know all those people on WineDB. I know all those people on almost every game forum, who are trying to run their favorite games on their favorite OS. And the numbers aren't much fewer than for Mac OS.

Okay but if anyone wanted to play a game on linux they'd just run it through wine anyways so you dev for windows and get windows + linux

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 08:55 PM
It would be great, but not all games work with Wine. Many of Linux users can bear it, and play the game through Wine, but there is no guarantee that it will run fine - therefore Linux users won't pledge their money on something they might not be able to use. And, no matter how good Wine is, it is still not a native way. And since Linux share is grew to almost the same level with Mac OS, it would be logical to think about Linux native version in the future. IMO.

Hock
05-24-2013, 08:59 PM
Steam.
February.
MacOS 3.07%
Linux 2.02%, not counting those who use Windows version with Wine.
Teeny-tiny?
Why do we have MacOS version then?

Because they want a version on iOS for iPads, so they may have started with a MacOS version.
That's a pretty big market that isn't reflected at all in Steam's sale numbers.

Madican
05-24-2013, 09:37 PM
Because they want a version on iOS for iPads, so they may have started with a MacOS version.
That's a pretty big market that isn't reflected at all in Steam's sale numbers.

Exactly. iPads and iPhones all run OSX. They're not doing Mac support just for the desktops or laptops, but mainly the mobile devices.

As I said before, Linux is not user-friendly. You have to know what you're doing with it, which is why it's not on smartphones the way Android and OSX is. You have to put it on yourself most of the time. Great for homebrew, but not worthwhile enough to spend money adapting to it.

I just realized, the meaning of Linux's name is kind of amusing, because what it isn't would probably work with HEX.

Hibbert
05-24-2013, 09:57 PM
iPads and iPhones run iOS, not OSX. OSX is actually closer to Linux. Both are Unix based operating systems.

The only way I would see a Linux port being worth the money is if Valve's Steambox takes off in a big way. While current Linux desktop users are willing to pay for games(Humble Indie Bundles tend to get the biggest average donation from Linux users), I don't think it's a market that will net Hex a worthwhile amount of cash.

If there's enough interest in Hex in the Linux community, I'm sure it will be Wine compatible though.

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 09:57 PM
iPads, and iPhones run iOS. Which is different from Mac OS. Just like Android is different from Linux.
So if Mac OS version is being developed because of iOS, why Linux version can't be developed because of Android?

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 10:01 PM
If there's enough interest in Hex in the Linux community, I'm sure it will be Wine compatible though.
No, if it will use some rare Windows functions, which are not implemented in Wine, or something like that.

Madican
05-24-2013, 10:14 PM
iPads and iPhones run iOS, not OSX. OSX is actually closer to Linux. Both are Unix based operating systems.

Oh? That's my mistake then, since I don't have an iPad/iPhone so I never bothered to look into it.

I could have sworn there was a fundamental difference between Linux and UNIX though. I mean that's the point of the acronym: Linux Is Not UniX.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-24-2013, 11:36 PM
So much confusion about the Mac :)

Mac OS X is -not- a Linux flavor, it is one of many Unices which in itself doesn't mean a damn lot because there are so many different Unices. In essence one could say Mac OS X is akin to BSD Unix. It has a "Mach" kernel, with a Posix-standards compliant Unix layer on top. And on top of that are many, many of Apple's proprietary libraries and pieces of software.

Porting between Linux and Mac OS X is only "easy" when it comes to stuff living on the Posix-compliant parts of the OS, those things that rely on a true Unix flavor to be present. But when it comes to graphics, graphics acceleration, sound systems and whatnot the two could not be more different. So no, porting a nice looking game isn't that easy unless you happen to be working with an engine that is already available on both platforms.

iOS in turn is the same. iOS is a branch of Mac OS X insofar that it runs on Mach and it might even be Posix compliant. But the graphics systems and most other things work rather differently from OS X itself. Again, working with an engine that is available on both platforms would make a port easier, but still.

SOIMiMozO
05-24-2013, 11:45 PM
unless you happen to be working with an engine that is already available on both platforms
Well we have Unity, if I'm not mistaken. It is available on both platforms.

Hock
05-25-2013, 12:11 AM
iPads and iPhones run iOS, not OSX. OSX is actually closer to Linux. Both are Unix based operating systems.

The only way I would see a Linux port being worth the money is if Valve's Steambox takes off in a big way. While current Linux desktop users are willing to pay for games(Humble Indie Bundles tend to get the biggest average donation from Linux users), I don't think it's a market that will net Hex a worthwhile amount of cash.

If there's enough interest in Hex in the Linux community, I'm sure it will be Wine compatible though.

OSX is not closer to Linux, it is closer to iOS. iOS is actually derived from OSX and they both have Darwin in common.

Hibbert
05-25-2013, 12:28 AM
OSX is not closer to Linux, it is closer to iOS. iOS is actually derived from OSX and they both have Darwin in common.

Whoops. Yeah, I was way off. I'll stand by the other stuff I said though :). Absent a huge Steambox customer base a native Linux port isn't likely. Wine compatibility is more likely, especially if Hex is popular enough for some gamer/programmers contribute some Hex specific patches to Wine.

Jarad
05-25-2013, 12:36 AM
Well we have Unity, if I'm not mistaken. It is available on both platforms.

That. :cool: Although there is still no official word about this, I also think they are using Unity (judging by some UI elements in de gameplay demo). And if that is the case, I really don't see any reason why they wouldn't support Linux in the future. It's not even a separate addon they would have to buy, Unity Pro exports to Windows, Mac and Linux out of the box. Although it's still in "preview" mode at the moment and so they only support Ubuntu 10.04 or later now.

http://unity3d.com/unity/multiplatform/desktop

Cailin_Coilleach
05-26-2013, 09:46 PM
Oh, I agree about Unity. Using a common engine which is available on all platforms will mkae life so much easier.

I was just reacting out to those folks who said that "(Linux = Unix) and (OS X = Unix) so porting to both is easy" and who said "iOS is just like OS X so porting is easy". Because both parties were wrong in those particular regards.

Madican
05-26-2013, 10:08 PM
To be fair most people don't really understand there even is a difference between Linux and Unix. I've only ever worked with Fedora 13 as far as Linux goes, just been research into the other stuff. Dry, boring research I can't seem to retain much of.

djlowballer
05-26-2013, 10:53 PM
The lack of developer support is the only reason I keep a windows box for gaming. I am much more comfortable using Linux in every other aspect of my life than windows. OSX is OK but only because it fully implements the Unix standard so it behaves well with the rest of my devices.

Jeffonious
05-27-2013, 12:07 AM
I highly doubt they are using Unity. I see zero evidence.

SOIMiMozO
05-27-2013, 12:40 AM
What else they can possibly use, for a game like Hex? Custom engine?

Madican
05-27-2013, 01:02 AM
Gamebryo clearly. :rolleyes:

SOIMiMozO
05-27-2013, 01:18 AM
Well, this one is cross-platform too.

Jarad
05-27-2013, 05:48 AM
I highly doubt they are using Unity. I see zero evidence.

Why would you highly doubt it? Blizzard's Hearthstone and Mojang's Scrolls are both made in Unity. So you know, the whole digital cardgame thing can work pretty great with Unity. :)

Anyhow, I'm basing my hunch on the "Debug Controls" button which is shown in the right corner of the gameplay video. Which looks very similar to the default Unity GUI.

632

And here is a link to the default Unity GUI.
Unity GUI image (http://i.imgur.com/ngSK0.png)

Cailin_Coilleach
05-28-2013, 03:45 AM
Why would you highly doubt it? Blizzard's Hearthstone and Mojang's Scrolls are both made in Unity. So you know, the whole digital cardgame thing can work pretty great with Unity. :)

Shadow Era too... You can even play it on their site using the Unity Web Player.