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Kami
05-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Will there be a ban/block-list against players who join a draft using their lifetime perk, pick cards from a booster (for their free three booters) and then quit?

I see this being a huge potential problem.

Talreth
05-13-2013, 01:28 PM
I guess I didn't think about that because it just makes me sad, but I can also see that being a problem. I would be okay with saying for Pro Player pledges, if you use your free ticket for the week you have to play the whole draft to get the cards. That way, you still get the cards for doing something fun (drafting) for free, but you don't ruin other people's draft, and the lost cards were free anyways.

Edit: Granted, this kind of sucks for people who have an emergency come up or something, but there's always a free draft next week I guess.

syphonhail
05-13-2013, 01:32 PM
Why is this an issue? If people quit, then it is less competition to win the draft.

JMFD
05-13-2013, 01:33 PM
In my opinion if you quit a draft free or not you shouldn't get to keep your cards. I know emergencys happen in real life sometimes but those people are gonna have to suffer through for the common good.

Either that or if you quit a draft game you get a penality like in League of Legends.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 01:34 PM
I doubt the majority people will just throw away their chance of winning more boosters, but I can see this becoming a problem if people use their freebies to cherry pick cards out of packs and then leave. It would hurt their rating, though.

If they are particularly nefarious players, they might even intentionally tank their draft rating to get easier opponents...

I guess the devs will need an automated system to flag people who are forfeiting drafts early at an abnormally high rate.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 01:36 PM
In my opinion if you quit a draft free or not you shouldn't get to keep your cards. I know emergencys happen in real life sometimes but those people are gonna have to suffer through for the common good.

Either that or if you quit a draft game you get a penality like in League of Legends.

That would be rather harsh, considering the entrance fee is 3 boosters and $1.

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 01:36 PM
As syphonhail said, nothing to see here. it is their perk to do with as they choose. while it could be an issue, it happens in other games as well. It's not nearly as bad as other stupid BM stuff that happens. IE> losing a match then instead of accepting defeat, just walking away from the computer.

rodan
05-13-2013, 01:37 PM
On the one hand it sucks if someone quits and you have to wait around for the next round. On the other hand it's a free win and gets you closer to winning more packs from the prize pool.

Devaux
05-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Why is this an issue? If people quit, then it is less competition to win the draft.

This is all I can think. If you get a free draft a week that practice will add up and mean that by quitting you're losing out on a chance at prizes! Even if you're not as good at it you can play swiss and win a pack or two.

BlindMan
05-13-2013, 01:37 PM
@Tyrfang: I like the idea of automatically tracking people's rate of quitting draft tournaments. Here's an addition to that idea: If the ranking system took forfeit into account, then potentially people who "rare draft" too much would all end up in the basement of the ladder system, drafting with each other :D

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 01:38 PM
What does rating have to do with opposition? Is there some terrible matching system for PvP that I didn't hear about?

Kami
05-13-2013, 01:39 PM
Except the ones abusing this system by cherry-picking their cards and quitting reduce the quality of the Booster Draft competition and also are able to tank their rating (increasing their chances of winning in the future to make it up).

Not all the people playing drafts will be playing for free. Is it fair for the people who actually pay the three boosters + $1 who want a good/fair competition?

rodan
05-13-2013, 01:42 PM
I don't think rating will have anything to do with who you draft against. You pick a queue and it fires when 8 people sign up.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 01:43 PM
What does rating have to do with opposition? Is there some terrible matching system for PvP that I didn't hear about?
I believe there's a matchmaker for ladder. I'm not sure if it will apply to drafting as well.

Maybe just mix the people with high forfeit rates together...

BlindMan
05-13-2013, 01:44 PM
@rodan: You're probably right. I think the parallels to PvP in other MMO's had me thinking of a more ladder based system.

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 01:46 PM
ladder - free to play PvP to prove who's the best at constructed?

limited and constructed ratings should be completely independent, but essentially equally worthless.

syphonhail
05-13-2013, 01:46 PM
A quick sketch as to why it does not really matter: In almost every scenario, quitters help you. Assuming a single elimination format (3 rounds):

Scenario 1: Equal skill
If everyone is equally skilled, then the chance of winning a draft is 1/8. If you have one or more quitters, then you now have a higher chance of winning (1/7 for 1 quitter, 1/6 for 2, etc.).

Scenario 2: Value drafting bad limited cards
The biggest fear people have is that someone will come in and just pick all the valuable cards. If those cards are bad for drafting, then you, as a good player, would not pick those cards, so you would not have them in the first place.

Scenario 3: Value drafting, good limited cards, player of equal skill
If the valuable cards are also good for draft, a good player would pick those cards anyways. You would not get those valuable cards.

Scenario 4: Value drafting, good limited cards, player of lesser skill
This is the scenario that may hurt you. A player does not recognize a good card, but only how much a card is worth. They pick a card that would come to you that they would otherwise pass on if they were playing to win.

Scenario 5: Value drafting, good limited cards, player of higher skill
They would pick the cards anyways, so it would be a wash. But if they rare draft and quit, then your likelihood of winning now has gone up.


Another objection is that it gives someone a free win.

Scenario 6: It gives you a free win in round 1
The likelihood you win against the non-rare drafter is not 100%. You have just received a free win. This is a bonus.


Scenario 7: It gives someone else a free win in round 1
If the player is a weaker player than the rare drafter, this then improves your chances of winning the tournament as you now have a chance at getting paired against a player you would not see in round 2 normally. If the person is stronger than the rare drafter, then they were likely to win anyways and your results do not change.

cervidal
05-13-2013, 01:48 PM
Anyone here thinking that wouldn't be an issue has never encountered the rare drafter in a CCG.

There are always rare (and sometimes valuable) cards that are great for constructed decks but are terrible in a limited environment.

If I get to free draft, I'm grabbing every rare that comes my way, results be damned.

Devaux
05-13-2013, 01:48 PM
If people want to rare draft then let them. Each player gets the first pass at 3 rares in a draft. Why should people who pick rares be punished?

Also everything syphonhail said. I don't understand why this is a concern.

Rieper
05-13-2013, 01:49 PM
"money" drafting is nothing new at all, but often also the people the has worst decks in end. Dropping out i just advantage to everybody else going for win. These people jsut improve you chance off winning. I got no problem with either.

I am gonna play to win with my pro draft. But if i see a chase rare that can pay for another draft or i need for a tournement deck, i will go straight for it every time(Fact i won´t deny).

Talreth
05-13-2013, 01:49 PM
I thought draft was more round robin? I never played draft on MTGO though, I just figured it went off of records.

Devaux
05-13-2013, 01:53 PM
There are three types listed on the site.

Swiss: Everybody plays 3 rounds win or lose and get a pack for each win.

Single Elimination(Top-Heavy): A single elimination tournament where only first and second get packs.

Single Elimination(Spread): Single elimination tournament where if you make it past the first round you get packs.

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 01:55 PM
I thought draft was more round robin? I never played draft on MTGO though, I just figured it went off of records.

Nothing is round robin. Draft is 8 players. They can either be single elimination or swiss.

Single elimination is simply a knock out tournament like a basketball tournament with random first round pairings.
Swiss is 3 matches.
First round is random.
Second Round 1-0s play (2 matches), 0-1s play (2 matches)
Third Round 2-0s (1 match), 1-1s (2 matches), 0-2s (1match)

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 01:57 PM
Not all the people playing drafts will be playing for free. Is it fair for the people who actually pay the three boosters + $1 who want a good/fair competition?

Very few people will be playing for free (as a percentage of players). I doubt it'll be a problem. Well, more accurately the PP perk will not make the problem any worse. You'll get people drop because they determined it's the optimal move, but no more so than "IRL" card games like Magic.

nearlysober
05-13-2013, 02:00 PM
I don't think this will be a problem... at least not any more of a problem than it is in real life tournament play.

Players will be rated/ranked (mentioned on forums for matchmaking purposes) & there will be a League system (also referenced on forums) so all of this could easily be tracked.

If a person wants to waste their free entry per week and tank their rating... just for some "free" cards, that is their prerogative. If you're ever on the receiving end of such behavior, just be happy you got a bye to advance 1/3rd thru a single elimination tournament. And instead of being stuck in some giant room of card tables like a "real life" tourney, you can turn on the TV and space out while you wait for the next round instead of looking over shoulders of other matches waiting for someone to talk to :)

Storm_Fireblade
05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
I don't see this becoming any serious problem. First of all the overall playerbase will be much greater than those with free drafts and secondly a lot of those pro tier+ players do actually want to use those free drafts to play.

And should you encounter someone leaving, well, it just got easier for you to win this.

I don't see that many downfalls here.

Dralon
05-13-2013, 02:21 PM
I will be honest, there will be times when my weeks are very busy, and I don't have much time to play, certainly not enough for a 3-4 hr draft tournament. However I will want to take advantage of my kick starter bonuses and get my cards from the free drafts I qualify for. So I would enter to get my cards but may not stay for all, or perhaps any matches. No ill will is intended towards any players, and it only increases their odds of winning.

omghex
05-13-2013, 02:28 PM
It's not quitting, it's dropping, at least one player that sticks it out would get a bye. It's not a team game so somebody quitting doesn't adversely effect player experience. I don't see this being a problem.

houjix
05-13-2013, 02:29 PM
I don't care if people was to rare draft and split, but at least do it in elimination drafts, not swiss ones if at all possible. I hate byes after the first round.

Barov
05-13-2013, 02:33 PM
The people who are donating enough for Pro tier are not gonna be the type of people to abuse such a system.

BKCshah
05-13-2013, 02:36 PM
I don't care if people was to rare draft and split, but at least do it in elimination drafts, not swiss ones if at all possible. I hate byes after the first round.

But I want to spread the wealth for my laziness.

Boojum
05-13-2013, 02:39 PM
I have played a few times where after the end of the draft, everyone puts their rares on the table and the pod drafts out of them in rotisserie format, in order of win record. That obviously wouldn't work for single-elimination, but could be a decent option for Swiss, which is more of a casual-fun format, since it incentivizes everyone to do their best to win rather than worrying about monetary value.

But as others have said, this doesn't strike me as much of an issue. People have always been able to rare-draft, and if someone else does it, it just gives me a better chance to win the prizes. Really, the only downside is getting a no-show opponent or a bye and being bored. This is disappointing, but as nearlysober said, you're on the computer and can find something else fun to do.

Even better, though, would be to structure the game client so you're not just sitting at the "waiting for opponent" tournament screen. I'd like to be able to browse the AH, tweak my constructed decks, or do some PvE content while waiting, and then get pulled back into the tournament when it's time to play the next round.

Barov
05-13-2013, 02:43 PM
This is how my WoW drafts always went. The problem is since you bring your own packs to these people will be very upset they don't get to keep the legendary they opened from their pack. In a digital setting, I think it should just be what you draft, if you want to take the rarest cards at the expense of an ideal deck that's your choice.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 02:43 PM
I dont think a bye in swiss would be bad - you just got a free boster for paying for 3. Good deal if I ever saw one.

BigDog
05-13-2013, 03:03 PM
Very few people will be playing for free (as a percentage of players). I doubt it'll be a problem. Well, more accurately the PP perk will not make the problem any worse. You'll get people drop because they determined it's the optimal move, but no more so than "IRL" card games like Magic.

I agree with this^.

With the current tier options, there are a total of 3010 accounts that could have the "free draft per week". If the number of people drafting for the game is so small that 3010 accounts drafting and dropping once per week is a "major/significant" issue, then the game has problems much bigger than people drafting/dropping.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 03:08 PM
I don't see how drafting then dropping (cause either you rare drafted and have no time spare or built a shitty deck you don't wanna play) is an issue.
So many times I went drafting IRL, took no rares and dropped right away cause I didnt feel like playing my deck

~

d00dz
05-13-2013, 03:09 PM
The more people who rare-draft and quit, the happier I'd be as it increases my chance of winning. I'm certain CZE will allow players to do other unrelated stuff (look at cards, build decks, monitor AH, etc) while waiting for your match to come up. A notification would probably pop up in the middle of the screen or something once its your turn.

Joolz
05-13-2013, 03:14 PM
I donated at the PP tier and have every intention of trying to win every draft I play in whether it's "free" or not. I have no problem with how anyone chooses to draft. If someone opens up a rare that sucks for limited but will be great in their constructed deck, good for them, go ahead and take it. If they can trade that card later for 20 booster packs, by all means go for it!

Probably the worst it could get would be the night before the week resets would be those with free drafts quickly rare drafting to get their 3 free boosters for the week. But as has been mentioned there's a very small pool of those players and that pool will likely be some of the most dedicated.

d00dz
05-13-2013, 03:16 PM
I hope I'll end up in a draft tournament where every other player rare-drafts and quits, leaving me the winner by default :p

Storm_Fireblade
05-13-2013, 03:18 PM
No d00dz, that guy is going to be me and then I'm laughing at everyone providing me with free prices in a draft I didn't even pay for :D All you draft-quitters, just go ahead and join my drafts, I'll be playing so many, there is plenty room for serious competition, so a free draft win now and then would be a welcomed change ^^

d00dz
05-13-2013, 03:20 PM
No d00dz, that guy is going to be me and then I'm laughing at everyone providing me with free prices in a draft I didn't even pay for :D All you draft-quitters, just go ahead and join my drafts, I'll be playing so many, there is plenty room for serious competition, so a free draft win now and then would be a welcomed change ^^

Hahaha you and me both! I intend to play the heck out of this game as well and to take advantage of every draft opportunity to win. Would be funny to see people suddenly disappearing after selecting their cards, leaving a big pile of prizes ripe for the taking.

zetalux
05-13-2013, 04:08 PM
You could rare draft and then dip, but you are leaving out the current tournie's prizes from your possible pool as well as possibly any future monthly/yearly draft tournaments off the table from dipping out too often. Those tournaments can lead to prizes worth $1k-$10k(just a guess, not a fact). Understandable that emergencies come up, but when you are only looking at the current monetary gain over long term gain, then go ahead. I dont care either way, I plan to play through draft tournaments every week. I need the practice as deck construction is my weakest trait in TCGs.

Jugan
05-13-2013, 04:11 PM
In my opinion if you quit a draft free or not you shouldn't get to keep your cards. I know emergencys happen in real life sometimes but those people are gonna have to suffer through for the common good.

Either that or if you quit a draft game you get a penality like in League of Legends.

LOL the notion of this is hilarious. When I play tournaments on magic online, I pray to god my opponents just leave or go afk. Free money is free.

JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 04:20 PM
I'm with you Jugan

Simokon
05-13-2013, 04:28 PM
I would be more than happy if people wanted to drop out of my drafts. Go right ahead my friends :D

Rapkannibale
05-14-2013, 02:22 AM
In the grand scheme of things I don't think this being an issue. There are a maximum of 2105 people that will have the free drafts for life (probably less since it is unlikely the super expensive tier will sell out, plus I know some people have purchased multiple pro-player tiers with different KS accounts). Free to play games (even niche ones) usually have active players of at least in the 10 thousands, so it will only be a very small percentage of the total user base that has these free drafts. And of those obviously most got the free drafts because they actually enjoy drafting. That being said, I could imagine a situation where a player won't have time to play their free draft for the week and just hop in to get some value out of it, and they should be allowed to. They had faith in the game and supported it from the start and as I said, in the grand scheme of things it is not hurting the game.

If the economy ends up being anything like Magic, not every rare will be super valuable and not every rare is playable in draft, so taking all this into consideration, I don't think this will be an issue at all.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 02:27 AM
At WOWTCG I've seen someone rare draft (one card) at French Nationals and still went 3-0 into top8.
People are allowed to pick whatever they want, and play/drop however they want.

˜

WSzaboPeter
05-14-2013, 02:31 AM
If we start to make meta-drafting rules, it would ruin the fun of it. CZE should leave people to draft in any way they wish, and if they want to drop after drafting or after winning the first game or something like that then let them be. (Just like in real life, you can't deny someone to leave the building after they have drafted their chosen cards.)

ShaolinRaven
05-14-2013, 09:25 AM
Yeah, rare drafting is nothing new, and don't forget you get points for winning tourneys for their weekly and monthly ones, so a rare draft quitter will also be giving you free points for the other tourneys going around and you won't get any rare draft quitters in those. So as others have said, I'll take a match against one for a free win.

droth25
05-14-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't see this being a problem, In fact I hope it happens. Free win = Free win.

jai151
05-14-2013, 12:52 PM
Having played Magic for years, I've attended MANY pre-releases. At these, not only is rare drafting not uncommon, it's expected.

But the rare is only one card out of the pack. You can cherry pick and still put together a viable tournament deck easily.

So I really don't get the concern. I went the pro backer route because three free packs per week for life, but I still fully intend to play those drafts. And not just play, play to win. And I really can't understand why someone wouldn't. There is no advantage to draft and dash, you play the first game and if you lose, hey, three free packs. Win and go on to see if you can get more than three free.

Worst case scenario for me is I have one less obstacle between me and the goodie bag. /shrug

BlackRoger
05-14-2013, 02:52 PM
I am not sure if what you are asking is feasible.

If they can't leave they will just concede twice and exit anyways no?
Even if you take the ability to concede they could stil pass + pass + pass and let you kill them in 2-3 minutes.
You might make it a little more annoying for them, but you aren't solving the problem.

@jai151 I don't see a problem with picking rares as well.
However it does mean their opponent has to sit down and wait for all the others to finish their fights so he can actualy play.
Though I suppose some people will be happy about the free win

Kami
05-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Well, I know if I was playing competitively, I'd want to play against people who are there to play for real.

Yes, it's always nice to get a free 'bye' for the prizes but I'm there for the competition, the prizes are a bonus.

So if I could be paired with generally non-quitters, it'd be a lot more fun imo. Otherwise, what is the point of an 8-player draft if every draft ends up being only 7 or less people.

And not every multi-pledger is going to merge accounts. Stacking multiple accounts and trying to get into the same draft simultaneously is possible as well.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 03:01 PM
And not every multi-pledger is going to merge accounts. Stacking multiple accounts and trying to get into the same draft simultaneously is possible as well.

Without knowing more about the matching system it's hard to speak to that one but with nontrivial numbers of active players that doesn't seem like it will have a high success rate.

Stok3d
05-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Why is this an issue? If people quit, then it is less competition to win the draft.

Winning the draft yields free packs and probably more value than cherry picking. If you have the life timers in your draft, consider yourself lucky!

3HoursDungeon
05-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Winning the draft yields free packs and probably more value than cherry picking. If you have the life timers in your draft, consider yourself lucky!

The only problem with raredrafting is that it messes up signaling because that person doesn't care what color he/she is taking. Overall it doesn't matter. Raredrafting isn't a new thing and it's not going to hurt as much as you think.

Slycne
05-14-2013, 05:57 PM
The final number of people with a Free Draft a Week is going to be a paltry small amount compared to the total population. Saying it's going to be a potential problem is like making a plan to avoid a shark attack when you live in the desert. You're much more likely to have someone leave a draft for regular emergency reasons than "free draft take money cards".

Currently there are only 655 pledges getting Free Drafts to 3217 without. And of those 655 only some percentage any given week are going to dine and dash that weeks draft. So that number gets whittled down even more and becomes pretty moot in my mind. Time would be better spent addressing other potential issues that will affect a lot more people.

Vibraxus
05-14-2013, 06:23 PM
Well, I know if I was playing competitively, I'd want to play against people who are there to play for real.

Yes, it's always nice to get a free 'bye' for the prizes but I'm there for the competition, the prizes are a bonus.

So if I could be paired with generally non-quitters, it'd be a lot more fun imo. Otherwise, what is the point of an 8-player draft if every draft ends up being only 7 or less people.

And not every multi-pledger is going to merge accounts. Stacking multiple accounts and trying to get into the same draft simultaneously is possible as well.

Perhaps replace the "rare drafter" once they drop with a low level AI. Its not a guaranteed win, but you still get to play the round.

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 09:21 PM
Perhaps replace the "rare drafter" once they drop with a low level AI. Its not a guaranteed win, but you still get to play the round.

While this looks to be a highly skill-based game (especially in the draft format) there is still enough luck involved that someone could end up losing to an AI, especially if the AI is as good as they claim. I think it'll be funny if your suggestion is implemented, and then an AI ends up winning a draft.

Tourguide
05-15-2013, 01:57 AM
i guess the spoils could always go to the last non-ai in the draft

funktion
05-15-2013, 03:21 AM
Rare drafting is not without it's own inherent costs. Whenever someone rare drafts at a table it is because they value / have more fun by taking those cards than they do by winning. Who's to say that there's anything wrong with them for doing so.

They've already announced having swiss style "casual" drafts vs also having more cutthroat topheavy drafts. Everyone gets what they want really.

Storm_Fireblade
05-15-2013, 05:09 AM
Personally I wouldn't be very fond to get the AI as an opponent should somehow drop out. In a real draft some other person isn't taking the spot either. I know, that Hex is going fully digital and explores new possibilities and I can see how implementing the AI as backup for quitters might feel like an innovative change. I do think though, that while drafting is PvP, the AI should have no part in this. I'd rather use the free win and free time to browse the AH, check my collection, trade, talk, polish decks etc instead of being forced to play against the computer. I'll get enough of that, while I enjoy the PvE part of the game.

Rapkannibale
05-15-2013, 05:17 AM
I'm with Storm here. If someone drops, the opponent should get a buy. Going digital doesn't mean to have to change everything. PvP should be just that Player vs Player. :)

JMFD
05-15-2013, 06:03 AM
Plus what if AI wins the tournament? Who gets the prizes then?

UDareUTake
05-15-2013, 06:07 AM
If my opponent drops or quits on purpose, I'll just treat it as a free win, lol.

papalorax
05-15-2013, 06:29 AM
Plus what if AI wins the tournament? Who gets the prizes then?

If there was some way for the AI to play against you with - just so you could play your deck...that would be better (and you automatically advance). Unfortunately that is unlikely since it will have to wait through your opponents clock or something like that.