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Gearfried
05-13-2013, 02:04 PM
The Spectral Lotus Garden, (http://i.imgur.com/vFk6NU0.jpg) comes with a few effects. As you can see, it creates a Spectral Lotus (http://i.imgur.com/3HJc0CO.png) every day you log in. And the Spectral Lotus itself, upon use, turns into a Black Tiger, (http://i.imgur.com/hujR4Ux.png) FOREVER. Baring one special circumstance.

What it doesn't mention on the card descriptions is that you can turn four Black Tigers into a Spectral Lotus using the Spectral Lotus Garden.

This card is exclusive to the Kickstarter at King Tier ($120) or higher, currently around a third of the backers will have one.

My question to you all is this, as the Spectral Lotus Garden will not be available in ANY other way outside of the Kickstarter campaign, do you think it will be worth backing to that value just to have a steady source of income selling Spectral Lotus's on the Auction House? Which, before anyone says otherwise, will be possible.

I backed the campaign on day one as I'm a big fan of TCGs, but being in rural England, I've never really had an opportunity to play them much. I've just been reading up on the game some more and decided to up my pledge to King Tier, mainly for the Spectral Lotus Garden card. I missed out on the early bird backing of $90, but I can't say I'm that bothered really. Just wanted to know it anyone else is backing to this amount or more for this unique card.

EDIT: I should also mention, that backing to King Tier gets you 4 decks ($40) and 150 booster packs ($300). Plus most of the stretch goals seems to include this tier, so there may yet be more reward for pledging here. It just all around seems worth it to me, even if the Spectral Lotus cards end up worth very little. And to be clear, I don't actually mean to be able to sell the card for real world money in any way, just extra in game cash. Whatever that is.

Kami
05-13-2013, 02:07 PM
No, the Spectral Lotus and Black Tigers won't have much value since everyone is probably thinking the same thing.

Unless... the two cards you get from the Garden are somehow involved in some sort of craft recipe requiring a large amount of them.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 02:08 PM
I think a lot of people are, and I personally want to go for king for this very reason, more than all the others.

The supply will be limited enough for it to have value I think, but if there is too much flood it may have a much lower payout.

Liokae
05-13-2013, 02:08 PM
A steady source of in-game income, or real? I'm pretty sure paying off the pledge by selling spectral lotuses for plat would be a decade or more to reach break-even.

Gearfried
05-13-2013, 02:10 PM
Unless... the two cards you get from the Garden are somehow involved in some sort of craft recipe requiring a large amount of them.

I seriously doubt it.


A steady source of in-game income, or real? I'm pretty sure paying off the pledge by selling spectral lotuses for plat would be a decade or more to reach break-even.

Just a little extra in game income, even if it sells for next to nothing, that's still something you got for just logging in every day.

TheBlueMagician
05-13-2013, 02:13 PM
I certainly backed for the Spectral Lotus before bumping up to get the pro player draft. It's going to provide a steady stream of a really good PvE card, and a potentially valuable source of income.

The only question that remains is what sort of income you can get. So far it has been implied that there are two tiers of currency: gold coins and platinum coins, as seen in this picture that is too large to insert (https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/456/890/75cf85c7d80b05982c3dc0687155c609_large.jpg).

It is feasible to have a system where players can only trade gold coins, which I assume to be currency earned in the game itself through PvE and PvP play. Gold coins could be spent on the auction house, perhaps at stores in PvE towns (if those exist), and traded to players directly.

However, a much more robust system would allow for the direct trade of Platinum coins, which could be purchased with real money. This would let you trade your cards for cash value, giving you the ability to save up gold coins earned by auctioning items, and then using that to buy decks, boosters, etc.


What is entirely unknown, and honestly doubtful, is that you will be able to "cash out." Converting digital currency of any kind into real money in your bank account is a troublesome, red tape lined path, as you have to be really careful to prevent money laundering and scamming. So while I would bet you can trade in-game items for money value, I doubt you will be able to actually make money off of the game, especially at launch.

syphonhail
05-13-2013, 02:15 PM
It's a PVE-only card which dramatically lowers its sale value.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 02:15 PM
Only you can say how much a lotus garden is worth to you. The lotus cards it generates are PvE only so, there basicly worthless to the hard core Pvp-er.

But unless card draws are way more common than they are in magic, the spectral lotus will be in pretty high demand for PvE. That's ignoring the secondary effects of the card (being an artifact on the field, being a resource source, turning into a troop, etc).

Liokae
05-13-2013, 02:16 PM
I suppose it all depends on how many people end up playing the game, then. Once the kickstarter is over, the *supply* of the cards is permanently capped; it'll only ever go down. So the value will be dependent on how many people are buying them... which'll depend on how many play.

Impossible to say ahead of time just how much value it'll have in the game economy, so it's not really possible to say if it's worth it *for the income*. In general, I'd say you should look at it as whether or not it's worth it to *have the garden*- as in, if you want to be using Lotuses (loti?) in your deck, without having to be constantly buying them off others.

For myself, the lotus garden is a really nice perk that I'll certainly be basing some decks around, but it's definitely not the reason I pledged up to a tier that had it.

EDIT: The supply *rate* is capped, rather. But given that their usage consumes them, the point is still the same.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 02:17 PM
What is entirely unknown, and honestly doubtful, is that you will be able to "cash out." Converting digital currency of any kind into real money in your bank account is a troublesome, red tape lined path, as you have to be really careful to prevent money laundering and scamming. So while I would bet you can trade in-game items for money value, I doubt you will be able to actually make money off of the game, especially at launch.

They're going to need some system of giving players cash rewards in the first place. Can't really be a REAL MONEY tournament if you can't win REAL money.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
In any case, it won't be valuable until player population reaches very difficult content en masse and needs the added advantage.

TheBlueMagician
05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
They're going to need some system of giving players cash rewards in the first place. Can't really be a REAL MONEY tournament if you can't win REAL money.

There's a big difference between providing a reward to someone, and creating a system that allows you to withdraw and deposit money at will.

It is easy to set up a system where you select a winner, and then obtain the necessary details to wire them their reward. What is not easy is setting up a system that let's money flow two ways dynamically and without supervision.

You're comparing apples and walnuts here.

houjix
05-13-2013, 02:20 PM
They're going to need some system of giving players cash rewards in the first place. Can't really be a REAL MONEY tournament if you can't win REAL money.

You'll probably see pre-paid Visas or something to that effect for you money prizes.

nearlysober
05-13-2013, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't plan on going to a tier with plans to gain back money (or make money) selling the cards contained within it.

There are too many unknown variables. How much will people pay for PvE cards? How much demand, player base, etc. will there be? What will the longevity of the game be?

Obviously it's nice to think that the best of the best will happen... but that's not a good model for financial decisions :)

If you want to go to King, do it because you'll enjoy having the Spectral Lotus, you'll enjoy using it and have fun playing it. Or because you want to throw your full support behind the project, etc.

If you make a little gold some day selling the cards on the AH, that's a bonus. But that really shouldn't be a driving force in your decision.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 02:22 PM
It's also worth noting that you'll be prety much guaranteed to be able to buy spectral lotus in the auction house, but getting a lotus garden in the AH will probably be prohibitively expensive.

The King tier is also a pretty good deal just for the packs (approximately half price).

Talreth
05-13-2013, 02:24 PM
The spectral lotus garden is only indirectly the most important reason to back king+. The real reason is an infinite supply of kitty cats!

Gearfried
05-13-2013, 02:26 PM
If you make a little gold some day selling the cards on the AH, that's a bonus. But that really shouldn't be a driving force in your decision.

I really enjoy playing the Auction Houses of MMOs. Have done in all the ones I've played. This card happens to give me a little something extra to sell every day should I want to, that's not too shabby.

It isn't the only reason I backed up to King Tier though, I'll get a ton of boosters and some very decent PvE cards for a game I expect I'll play quite a bit.

Liokae
05-13-2013, 02:32 PM
The spectral lotus garden is only indirectly the most important reason to back king+. The real reason is an infinite supply of kitty cats!

Digital kitty cats are useless if they can't dance dance dance!


It's also worth noting that you'll be prety much guaranteed to be able to buy spectral lotus in the auction house, but getting a lotus garden in the AH will probably be prohibitively expensive.

I'm honestly pretty surprised that the Lotus Garden itself is a card, and not just an account flag.

Kami
05-13-2013, 02:37 PM
No love for the canids. :(

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 02:40 PM
I'm honestly pretty surprised that the Lotus Garden itself is a card, and not just an account flag.

It's probably so you can trade it. The devs seem to be big on making everything tradable in this game.

Liokae
05-13-2013, 02:41 PM
It's probably so you can trade it. The devs seem to be big on making everything tradable in this game.

Ayuh. It's just really weird to see a card with the effect text "You may not include this card in your deck."

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 03:14 PM
Hardcore PvE players will want Spectral Lotus, and they won't be KSers.
I think Lotus will sell for 50cents each

~

Gearfried
05-13-2013, 03:19 PM
Hardcore PvE players will want Spectral Lotus, and they won't be KSers.
I think Lotus will sell for 50cents each

~

That's pure speculation obviously. But if correct would be 182 dollars a year.

syphonhail
05-13-2013, 03:43 PM
Hardcore PvE players will want Spectral Lotus, and they won't be KSers.
I think Lotus will sell for 50cents each

~

You are off by at least an order of magnitude. There are 1198 pledgers on kickstarter who will get the spectral lotus, an unknown number of paypal contributors, and 25 days left of additional people who will get the card. I am going to hazard a somewhat conservative guess and suggest that at least 2,000 spectral lotuses will be created a day.

Each spectral lotus has a one time use effect that is consumed and can later be used to create 1/4th of another spectral lotus, which is then 1/16th of the next lotus...an infinite series that makes any lotus = 1.3 lotuses (infinite sum series). To have 2,000 enter the economy a day, people are going to post them to the AH at a rate that is proportional to their value. There is little possibility that people would hold onto them at 50 cents a day. The real value that you can move them at is going to be between 1-10 cents, if that; I think 5 cents may be the equilibrium and I would happy to get that for a card I would occasionally use in pve decks.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 03:53 PM
You are off by at least an order of magnitude. There are 1198 pledgers on kickstarter who will get the spectral lotus, an unknown number of paypal contributors, and 25 days left of additional people who will get the card. I am going to hazard a somewhat conservative guess and suggest that at least 2,000 spectral lotuses will be created a day.

Each spectral lotus has a one time use effect that is consumed and can later be used to create 1/4th of another spectral lotus, which is then 1/16th of the next lotus...an infinite series that makes any lotus = 1.3 lotuses (infinite sum series). To have 2,000 enter the economy a day, people are going to post them to the AH at a rate that is proportional to their value. There is little possibility that people would hold onto them at 50 cents a day. The real value that you can move them at is going to be between 1-10 cents, if that; I think 5 cents may be the equilibrium and I would happy to get that for a card I would occasionally use in pve decks.

That's not very concrete reasoning.

Until a lot more is known about the PvE meta game and post launch player demographics there's no telling what value of a spectral lotus will be.

Blare731
05-13-2013, 03:58 PM
WTB all your spectral lotus gardens, I'm saving you the investment and I'll give you $10 a pop. PM me if you want. =]

syphonhail
05-13-2013, 04:02 PM
That's not very concrete reasoning.

Until a lot more is known about the PvE meta game and post launch player demographics there's no telling what value of a spectral lotus will be.

This is a card you get for free every day; the costs of acquiring the card have already been sunk, your only real choice is to use this in PVE once (1.3 times really) or sell it for money. At what price do you not sell it for money? At what price do you prefer to use it for a PVE campaign you can complete without the card? The market will be flooded at 50 cents a pop with people undercutting each other. I would wager that even 25 cents each would be too high as that means selling off 8 will net you a booster.

Syreliex
05-13-2013, 04:12 PM
You must be drunk, I think you're seriously underestimating the PVE market and eventual player base and missing a lot of variables in your assumptions. The value of the card is only going to increase as the total players base goes up...

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 04:14 PM
You must be drunk, I think you're seriously underestimating the PVE market and eventual player base and missing a lot of variables in your assumptions. The value of the card is only going to increase as the total players base goes up...

It's also possible that PvE will contain somewhat similar (perhaps not as powerful or simply more expensive) cards that could be made using their crafting system, which would either dampen the demand for the card or place a ceiling on the card.

It's highly unlikely that it will be the *only* card of its type, even if it is unique.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 04:28 PM
This is a card you get for free every day; the costs of acquiring the card have already been sunk, your only real choice is to use this in PVE once (1.3 times really) or sell it for money. At what price do you not sell it for money? At what price do you prefer to use it for a PVE campaign you can complete without the card? The market will be flooded at 50 cents a pop with people undercutting each other. I would wager that even 25 cents each would be too high as that means selling off 8 will net you a booster.

Like I said it depends on the meta game and demographics of PvE.

If there are enough efficient substitutes to spectral lotus or PvE is a dud, they will be worthless. On the other hand if PvE is exceedingly popular and the lotus is good enough that every PvE deck is better off having a full set of them they could get pretty valuable.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 04:43 PM
They are more than good enough to run in your own decks, so the only point of contention here is for PvP players who are getting them and not wanting them...

SriSyadasti
05-13-2013, 04:44 PM
There is the possibility of having 4 in a deck for the 0 cost card draw (effectively allows you a 56 card deck rather than 60) but never actually using them so you can keep going forever with just one playset. Least until you start getting them controlled and tapped by your opponents

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 04:47 PM
Nevermind, I get what you mean.

Basically use it as a filler card that doesn't have to be used, because the cost is zero and you can draw a card when you play it.

Maybe for an artifact deck...I don't see much other synergy for it to be there.

Edit:
Oh, nevermind, there's a discard cards and redraw cards effect with equipment, which would effectively be damn useful for throwing certain cards into the graveyard for combos.'

Also effectively turns the card into a free mulligan.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 04:50 PM
You can also use artifact affinity sort of stuff - dwarves are pretty artifact crazy already, and some effects include artifacts already.

Turtlewing
05-13-2013, 04:55 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that spectral lotus is week. The point of contention is largely what the demand for them will be since that will be the driving factor in their auction house value (supply being constrained).

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 05:03 PM
Well in any case, the value of them will go up as the game matures, because the number of active players with the gardens relative to the entire population of players will go down. The actual price point is purely wild guesses...

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 05:40 PM
Just thought of something.

How would spectral lotus work with the champion ability, Reverse engineering?
http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/HEX_ASSET_18.jpg

Kitsune
05-13-2013, 05:45 PM
There are so many players with this card that the market will be flooded instantly. The card is fantastically good (and expendable) so you'll probably never have a problem selling them, but I wouldn't expect them to have a lot of value. Nice to have, yeah, but don't expect to be raking in big cash, because there'll be thousands of people with that card producing lotuses every day.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 05:48 PM
Hmm, I am not 100% clear on how that works, but it sounds like you could tutor one into play, but since it is transforming not entering play you would miss the card draw. You could play the cat for free though, and the get the free card from that, so it is technically [2] play a 3/1 and draw a card. Not bad, and could be combo'd to other things - it does give you a mana advantage.

I dont think you could keep the created kitty though.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 05:56 PM
You would have to search the deck twice, once to inscribe the lotus, and once to inscribe each artifact. It'd be an interesting dynamic if there were a method of returning the lotus into your hand.

In any case you also get 3 threshold as well...

Also, with his passive, you can turn Tigers into Artifact troops?

Looks like I found my PvE combo. =P

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:00 PM
It sounds like the Reverse Engineering is a card itself, and it transforms into the tutored card and keeps the ability to transform - but using the lotus sacrifices it, and returns it to the hand as a tiger. So you would effectively remove the Reverse Engineering card.

So you pay 2 to learn the lotus, 0 to transform into it, then sacrifice it for 3 mana and a tiger.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 06:02 PM
It sounds like the Reverse Engineering is a card itself, and it transforms into the tutored card and keeps the ability to transform - but using the lotus sacrifices it, and returns it to the hand as a tiger. So you would effectively remove the Reverse Engineering card.

So you pay 2 to learn the lotus, 0 to transform into it, then sacrifice it for 3 mana and a tiger.

Ah that makes sense. Free lotus every game sounds good to me, though. Seems like it'd be a staple for that champion.

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 06:07 PM
Another question...what type of threshold is it?

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:11 PM
The lotus? Artifacts don't have any, and neither does the tiger. I assume all mana is colourless, so the lotus is giving you temporary free mana from one spell (or two/three if you can split it.)

Tyrfang
05-13-2013, 06:13 PM
Using the lotus allows you to gain three Threshold, but it never specifies what type.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:16 PM
Well I assume it is meant to say mana, or the terminology is wrong - or you can choose the threshold type, completely changing the way we see the card. I haven't seen colourless threshold, so I think that would be fairly useless.

Erebus
05-13-2013, 06:19 PM
I think it acts like a black lotus.

I'm assuming:
+[3/0] is +3 mana, and threshold means 3 threshold of the colors of your choice. Might be for the turn (thus it's not +[3/3]

Boojum
05-13-2013, 06:20 PM
I've been assuming you can choose the threshold type, or it's for all colors at once. It says "gain [+3/0]" which means 3 resources this turn, and 0 permanent resources. And then after that it says to gain three threshold, so it can't just mean mana again.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:23 PM
Is it possible that you are capped in mana by your threshold? It might be a failsafe to mean you can always gain that mana, and it dissapears after the turn is over.

Just a thought. Seems way too strange and inconsistant otherwise.

JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 06:26 PM
Is it possible that you are capped in mana by your threshold? It might be a failsafe to mean you can always gain that mana, and it dissapears after the turn is over.

Just a thought. Seems way too strange and inconsistant otherwise.
I doubt this. If they have any "thresholdless" mana sources it would not be good.

I agree it seems to be a 3 temporary mana that will NOT regen next turn. if it did it shoots your curve up 3 turns and would be stupidly overpowered.

Erebus
05-13-2013, 06:27 PM
Lots of the text are placeholders or translation from a graphical interface to text.

I think the intent behind the Lotus is you get not only temporary mana, but also temporary threshold to cast whatever card you want with the Lotus.

It's a giant PVE cheat card. Turn 2, I have 2 Diamond and lotus in play, I draw my 5 cost 3 sapphire threshold beast card, sac the lotus, have 5 mana, 3 sapphire threshold, 2 diamond threshold and play my awesome card.

Next turn I got back to 2 Diamond Threshold and 2 mana until I play my next resource card.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:31 PM
Hmm, I think for anything concrete we need a dev to confirm mechanics or we need to playtest.

I am leaning towards choosing a type, but it bugs me that it doesnt SAY it. I mean thats pretty important, and would make it a lot more useful than it is even as we have been looking at it.

djlowballer
05-13-2013, 07:17 PM
The usefulness of the card might not lead to a high price for the White Lotus, but the limited number Lotus Gardens in existence will provide the owner with a higher net worth. My plan is to sell the card for 2-3x my pledge once the user base grows and cash flush collectors will do anything to make up for missing the Kickstarter.

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 07:20 PM
I will keep my garden unless I ever perma-quit. Then I will get every cent I can bleed out of it - because $120 is a lot for me right now.

Then again, by the time I quit I might be rich.

Fireblast
05-13-2013, 11:34 PM
There are so many players with this card that the market will be flooded instantly. The card is fantastically good (and expendable) so you'll probably never have a problem selling them, but I wouldn't expect them to have a lot of value. Nice to have, yeah, but don't expect to be raking in big cash, because there'll be thousands of people with that card producing lotuses every day.

This is not some indie game.
KS backers will end up being 1% of the population

~

Oaka23
05-14-2013, 12:09 AM
I doubt this. If they have any "thresholdless" mana sources it would not be good.

I agree it seems to be a 3 temporary mana that will NOT regen next turn. if it did it shoots your curve up 3 turns and would be stupidly overpowered.

It's almost like it would be a black lotus...HOW ODD

Also overpowered cards aren't a massive concern given that it's for PvE and you can only ever use each copy one time.

Tinuvas
05-14-2013, 12:10 AM
KS backers will end up being 1% of the population

~
I *really* hope you're right. with over 3400 backers right now, that will make for one heck of a game state. What makes you so sure though? 340k players is quite a few...

3HoursDungeon
05-14-2013, 12:27 AM
I *really* hope you're right. with over 3400 backers right now, that will make for one heck of a game state. What makes you so sure though? 340k players is quite a few...

Yeah I agree. There's barely 5k MTGO players on at any given time and magic is huge.

Hibbert
05-14-2013, 12:41 AM
Concurrent log in's aren't the entire picture. I'd be very interested to know MTGO's total accounts vs. active accounts(logged in within the last month). I tried doing a bit of searching, but didn't see anything. Also, I wonder how many of that 5k are just trader bots?

For Hex, I'm sure the entire number of accounts will be very large, since it's F2P. With a bit of advertising here and there, all sorts of people will make accounts to check it out. How many of these purely free accounts decide to drop money on the game will be the big question.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 02:59 AM
How many players use cockatrice / MWS?
MTGO is very expensive, I've spent 4k on legacy cards and 0 on MTGO cause it's just too expensive for what it brings (in my eyes).

F2P TCG is very interesting, when you add quality and deep PvE content you get tons of users.
People from 10 to 50 can like TCGs, the target audience is huge.

About Spectral Lotus it's exactly a Black Lotus on steroids.
It replaces itself and can then get you 3 mana of one colour/threshold for the turn...

˜

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 06:27 AM
I think MTGO has low attendance because most MTG players play IRL with people at their hobby shops etc - why go online and pay more money if you have it within distance of your house, and have a better community feeling?

Hex brings the whole game in one place, not split between two, and has F2P elements - more than enough incentive for droves of players to come.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 07:27 AM
Yeah I agree. There's barely 5k MTGO players on at any given time and magic is huge.

MTGO isn't free to play, doesn't leverage the online nature to offer gameplay that the physical cards can't, doesn't have a PvE experience, and has near as I can tell been downplayed by Wizard's marketing team in favor of the Duel of Planeswalker line of games (which are even less comparable to Hex).

Extrapolating the demographics of Hex from that of MTGO is not much better than guessing.

Deathfog
05-17-2013, 09:28 PM
MTGO is designed to avoid cannibalizing the paper MTG system. Its lackluster since it can be no better than the standard card game it simulates. Its essentially abandonment of trying to create a thriving online game is the fuel that drives Hex. Hex is everything MTGO should/could be.