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JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 04:53 PM
I've always been a big fan of these. Coalition victory was a lot of fun. Mill decks are tons of fun. I'd love to see some of them pop up here!

mauvebutterfly
05-13-2013, 05:02 PM
Has it been confirmed that you lose if you can't draw any more cards from your deck? I've played games where you simply stop drawing cards once you run out of deck, and other games where something happens when you run out of cards (shuffle discard pile for example.)

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 05:15 PM
Not confirmed but assumed. Until we are told otherwise we are probably going to be assuming decking out is a loss.

WaylandX
05-13-2013, 06:53 PM
No they said for every turn you don't have a card to draw you take 1 damage

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 06:54 PM
Do we have a source on this? It would be very interesting to know, and changes how mill would work entirely.

Barov
05-13-2013, 07:22 PM
No they said for every turn you don't have a card to draw you take 1 damage

This is how it works in Duel of Champions, I don't remember ever reading this for Hex though

JoonYoungK
05-13-2013, 07:26 PM
Hmm if it's every time you need to draw a card you loose one health. maybe mill then force draws

Xenavire
05-13-2013, 07:28 PM
Yeah, but if it is true, mill would technically need to force 20 draws, or do some beating. It would be safer to just run burn.

MugenMusou
05-13-2013, 08:04 PM
I love alternate win as well. It just create a feeling of playing a whole new game. Having said this, instant loss with deck out is not my favorite as it may occur sort of by accident when game is tight, and suddenly you or opponent decide to switch to mill.

So ideal situation (in my opinion) would be to actually create cards that really supports mill. For example, some constants that say for every card you cannot draw, you take 5 damage or perhaps even say you win the game. The difference here is you don't win by out decking by accident rather you know you have created the deck targeting that as your goal; otherwise, those cards be useless.

Kami
05-13-2013, 08:08 PM
Yeah, but if it is true, mill would technically need to force 20 draws, or do some beating. It would be safer to just run burn.

Not necessarily. If the opponent has nothing left to draw, that means they only have whatever is left in their hand or on the board.

If you mill them to that point, they'll either resign, or you have an easy win and all they can do is draw out game-time.

Either way, a mill deck is still viable.

TheBlueMagician
05-13-2013, 09:48 PM
Not necessarily. If the opponent has nothing left to draw, that means they only have whatever is left in their hand or on the board.

If you mill them to that point, they'll either resign, or you have an easy win and all they can do is draw out game-time.

Either way, a mill deck is still viable.

That isn't necessarily true. Milling a deck takes time, and while you'll naturally get rid of some of their better cards, it's still likely you'll face some decent opposition. Mill decks are usually based around stalling, rather than outright elimination (using kill or debuff cards), and usually have weak attackers and strong defenders. Thus it's unlikely you would be able to sufficiently deal with whatever creatures the opponent had easily by the time you milled their whole deck.

I guess another way to put it is that the mill strategy winds up being secondary if it can't directly cause a loss (through instant loss if you can't draw, or -1 HP per turn, etc); instead of milling the opponent to defeat being your goal, you're using milling to run through their cards and give your troops an advantage on the field. It's the difference between a burn deck that's focused entirely on using instants and sorceries, and a deck that uses burn spells to supplement a significant creature component.

Erebus
05-13-2013, 09:51 PM
Exactly, if you run your opponent out of cards, and he doesn't lose at that point, suddenly your deck is full of useless cards (the rest of your mill cards), so you really aren't in that much better of a position in comparison.

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 12:17 AM
On the topic of mill, which race do you think the mechanic would work best with? I'm tempted to say the vennen, although we haven't really heard anything about them (no cards revealed yet afaik.) Seems like mill could simulate torturing or slowly killing an opponent, which seems like a vennen thing.

WSzaboPeter
05-14-2013, 01:27 AM
First of all, mill decks where not really tier1 in MTG since quite a while. Maybe once in a blue moon a turbo-fog like deck could steal a win or a top8 place, but then again that was just a rouge deck, not a tier1 archetype. This is by design from Wizards. Turbo-fog like mill is not something fun to play agains (or with), because the lack of interaction. (Not to mention it is quite boring to play such decks. – saying from experience.) So I certainly hope, that HEX will not go into the turbo-fog mill direction, instead more of a constructed playable creature based mill. That could be fun. I know that there are cards like that in MTG (quite a few recently), but there is no standard playable PTQ winning level deck with those.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 02:41 AM
At last standard Pro Tour there was a control deck that killed with the milling land
Milling is fine as a win condition in a control deck or as a OTK combo.
Milling is boring in a stalling deck :)

˜

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 02:49 AM
Game of Thrones had the same problem with mill effects initially: they weren't really interactive. Since being milled out wasn't a loss in that game and the individual effects weren't good for anything aside from mill, they were pretty much a joke.
Later they started making cards that actually had an effect. For example, a location that tapped to discarded 3 cards from someone's deck and then untap a character if at least two of those cards weren't characters. While mill decks never took off, mill effects based around this mechanic (and sometimes combined with effects that manipulated the order of cards in your deck) ended up being played on their own. These mill effects were also more useful since there were some popular search effects that let you put a card on top of your deck.

I agree that mill in and of itself isn't terribly interesting, but mill effects can still have a useful and interesting effect in a deck that isn't designed to win off of a mill strategy itself.

clorox
05-14-2013, 08:57 AM
There's always an opportunity in an exception-based engine to put the game ending condition on the card itself, especially on something that would transform.

Enlightenment from the WoW TCG was an interesting example of a card with win conditions. Not that I ever tried to build a deck around it or anything. /shame

houjix
05-14-2013, 08:59 AM
There's always an opportunity in an exception-based engine to put the game ending condition on the card itself, especially on something that would transform.

Enlightenment from the WoW TCG was an interesting example of a card with win conditions. Not that I ever tried to build a deck around it or anything. /shame

I did it. It was fun. Staff of the Ashtongue Deathsworn was a must.

Deadpool319
05-14-2013, 09:03 AM
I would think there will be various alternate win conditions. An equipment that shuffles its counterpart equipment into your deck: if you have all 4 of them in play, you win the game. They could have a hero charge power that works like Helix Pinnacle and if you have 100 charge power you can use it and win the game. Viability of those types of decks will be interesting versus the standard "turning dudes sideways".

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 09:27 AM
I would think there will be various alternate win conditions. An equipment that shuffles its counterpart equipment into your deck: if you have all 4 of them in play, you win the game. They could have a hero charge power that works like Helix Pinnacle and if you have 100 charge power you can use it and win the game. Viability of those types of decks will be interesting versus the standard "turning dudes sideways".

EXODIA WIN.

*cough*

Anyway, I think a drawing one would suck (RNG), but an in play one would work. Better than Yugioh, thats for sure.

ShaolinRaven
05-14-2013, 09:31 AM
Actually a mill deck in Hex could be interesting and more active then ones we've seen with cards like Zombie Plague where it does damage to a random troop in the opponents deck and if it kills the troop that troop becomes a zombie for you, or Mortar Strike that damages the top few cards, etc. So you could work on a more active mill style deck by removing cards from your opponent and in some instances even getting cards for it.