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4gn0st1x
05-14-2013, 06:18 AM
If the kickstarter hits 540k, will our kickstarter boosters have a chance to be primal?

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 06:20 AM
Yes, at least from the last official informations we did get :)

Kami
05-14-2013, 06:27 AM
My hope is that when we hit it and Primal Packs are implemented that Primal Packs have a very low drop rate. If drop rates are too high, it would destroy the value of rares/legendaries. Something like 1% (1/100) would be the bare minimum if not lower I would say.

Talreth
05-14-2013, 06:30 AM
I agree with Kami, because of the massive amount of KS boosters going out I would like to see a low drop rate on the Primals.

Storm_Fireblade
05-14-2013, 06:39 AM
I hope it is less than 1%. I really would prefer something like 0,5% or even less than that. 200 boosters is much for myself to get one primal (I know, this isn't exact math here right now), but if you think about how many boosters will be opened in total, 0,5% is still high enough to quickly flood the market with rare and legendary cards.

JMFD
05-14-2013, 07:28 AM
I don't see any reason for this to not be extremely low. I agree that 1% should be the MAX.

With all the booster packs going out in the beginning rare cards value is going to be a little low anyhow regardless of primals or not. But as a playerbase builds they will rise in value and immediately level out.

I see it being several months before we have a stable economy and cards have real "value" anyhow.

Kami
05-14-2013, 07:31 AM
I'd suspect longer than a few months. At least three sets would need to come out first with a stop-sell of the earlier sets (booster-wise). That seems to be the case with any new TCG.

jtatta
05-14-2013, 08:29 AM
I read on the kickstarter page comments where someone quoted Chris Woods as saying, "Primal Packs occasionally show up when you get a pack in any way, so they can come from prize rewards, purchases, could even be in your KS packs. "

Looked like a twitter post but I can't see to find it. If anyone else can find the source, that'd be appreciated.

Daer
05-14-2013, 08:35 AM
It is in the comments of the stretch goal update.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/479694#comments

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 09:08 AM
I hope it is less than 1%. I really would prefer something like 0,5% or even less than that. 200 boosters is much for myself to get one primal (I know, this isn't exact math here right now), but if you think about how many boosters will be opened in total, 0,5% is still high enough to quickly flood the market with rare and legendary cards.

I think half a percent might be too low. Statistically, 1 out of 3 people wouldn't receive any primals after 200 boosters, at that rate.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 09:24 AM
Have it 0,5% when purchasing single boosters and have 100 boosters boxes with 1 primal in it?

~

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 09:29 AM
Aren't booster boxes traditionally 36 boosters?

Erebus
05-14-2013, 09:31 AM
I used to buy cards by the case, which was 6 boxes. Which is 198 Boosters, close enough to 200 :)

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 09:34 AM
Personally, I would prefer a system where you receive a token that could be exchange from a primal pack randomly in packs, rather than immediately knowing it's a primal pack.

It would be much more exciting because you discover after opening a pack, rather than immediately after buying it.

...oh well. (Also, in that case, you can get them in drafts packs without affecting the draft itself.)

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 11:09 AM
Personally, I would prefer a system where you receive a token that could be exchange from a primal pack randomly in packs, rather than immediately knowing it's a primal pack.

It would be much more exciting because you discover after opening a pack, rather than immediately after buying it.

...oh well. (Also, in that case, you can get them in drafts packs without affecting the draft itself.)

I was under the impression that the primal/not primal roll happened when you opened the pack. This comes from the working in the stretch goal announcement where ether say "when you open a pack it has a chance of being a primal" and "packs opened for tournaments will never be primal".

Daer
05-14-2013, 11:16 AM
It is a different pack all together. They have said they can be traded. Basically whenever a pack is generated there is a small chance you will get a Primal Pack instead.

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 11:23 AM
Besides, they have gauranteed us a primal already if we hit the goal. Would be interesting to see them show the difference unless they look different.

MugenMusou
05-14-2013, 02:42 PM
Though I do sort of see people concern about too high frequency of primal pack possibly devaluing the high rarity card, I think we have to look it from other side.

Since primal pack is nothing but all 15 cards are high rarity, it is essentially equivalent of buying 15 booster packs. With drop rate of like 1:100, we are essentially saying its worth $200 a pack. To me it does not make sense unless prime pack has unique card, or some special odds that 15 high rarity cards are all that of rarest.

Now 1:15 prime pack is obviously NOT the answer because that means you buy 15 packs, and 1 of those you get almost another 15 packs value.

Personally, 1 in every booster box seems reasonable. Remember this game has a pack priced at $2, which is half of Magic. With Magic generally completing a full play set costs around $400, so if we can in theory apply this it would make sense to us be able to complete a set $200, which would be awesome (in my opinion). So game will not be driven by who got more money and if TCG with this quality can go with such great price scheme, it can further attract audience especially those had to quit Magic or not started Magic because of the high cost.

Mugaaz
05-20-2013, 11:05 PM
Though I do sort of see people concern about too high frequency of primal pack possibly devaluing the high rarity card, I think we have to look it from other side.

Since primal pack is nothing but all 15 cards are high rarity, it is essentially equivalent of buying 15 booster packs. With drop rate of like 1:100, we are essentially saying its worth $200 a pack. To me it does not make sense unless prime pack has unique card, or some special odds that 15 high rarity cards are all that of rarest.

Now 1:15 prime pack is obviously NOT the answer because that means you buy 15 packs, and 1 of those you get almost another 15 packs value.

Personally, 1 in every booster box seems reasonable. Remember this game has a pack priced at $2, which is half of Magic. With Magic generally completing a full play set costs around $400, so if we can in theory apply this it would make sense to us be able to complete a set $200, which would be awesome (in my opinion). So game will not be driven by who got more money and if TCG with this quality can go with such great price scheme, it can further attract audience especially those had to quit Magic or not started Magic because of the high cost.

Even if primal pack is 1/10000 it isn't worth more than 15 packs.

katkillad
05-21-2013, 02:35 AM
Even if primal pack is 1/10000 it isn't worth more than 15 packs.

Why wouldn't it be? Every rare/legendary isn't going to have the same value, it's too early to speculate but primal packs could be worth 30+ packs. I guarantee you that you wont see a primal pack on the AH for less than 15 packs unless it's just someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

Grissnap
05-21-2013, 02:41 AM
Ill sell you my primal packs for $60 each :/

katkillad
05-21-2013, 02:55 AM
Yea ok, I had a brain fart there...it's 5am here. Depending on if packs ever get discontinued they could still be more valuable than 15 packs eventually.3

Karnegal
05-21-2013, 03:24 AM
Price is fairly easy to speculate on. If we take a game with a similar rarity distribution (Magic). We know that, in general, rares have a relatively low value. Packs cost $4 (MSRP), and the average rare is <$1-2 (from big sellers, much closer to <$1 when you buy from other players - eBay). Mythics range widely in individual price, but the average price from set to set is about $5-6 (again from big retailers, closer to $4 on eBay). The big take home is that, on average, you are better served by buying the specific singles you need than opening a pack. This is why packs only sell for about $2.5 from online retailers, and a little less from other players.

On to Hex. We know that normal packs are 11 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare/legendary

We don't know what the odds of rare vs. legendary are, but let's say that they use an MtG-like rarity distribution (in every 8 packs 1 there will be legendary). Now, we also don't know what a primal pack will be like, but let's assume that this distribution holds. That means that a primal pack will have, on average 1.875 legendarys. This means that we can expect a primal pack to have almost 2 legendary cards and 13 rares. This sounds really good, and indeed, it is far better than a normal pack. However, if there are, say 15 legendary cards in a given set, the odds are that only some are going to be desirable, and the prices will range significantly. In Magic, the low value mythics are $1.50 (retailers) and the big money ones are generally $40 or less with very few exceptions for in-print cards. Most money ones are more like $8-20 from (retailers). Rares are generally more stable. Good rares sell for $3-5 (retail) and very good rares can go as high as $10, with very rare outliers going up to $30 for in print sets (you see maybe 1 of these year). An average Magic Primal pack (if they existed) would be worth about $30.

So, let's translate this to Hex. We can halve the prices (because Hex boosters are half the price of magic ones). This gives us an average price of a pack at $15. That's the equivalent of 7.5 boosters. Now, if you whiff on 2 legendaries and just get 1 that drops significantly. If you get 3 it goes up significantly. We have no idea what the distribution in a primal pack would be, but I think it's reasonable to extrapolate from the normal rate, and I think the rate used in Magic is a logical base in the absence of better information.

So, will primal packs sell for whatever the value of 7.5 packs is? I doubt it, I think they'll be a little more expensive (maybe 9-10 packs) in value because they are inherently more exciting to open. It's important to remember that packs will likely sell for less than MSRP on the auction house (why go through the AH for $2 in plat when you could just pay CZ $2 and have a shot at a primal pack?). This means that primals won't be worth $18-20, but rather 9-10 times the value that normal packs sell for on the AH (I would guess between $1-1.50 with the first set being a bit depressed because of a flooded market.

How rare will they be? I assume far more rare than their value would indicate. I would imagine something like 1:50-1:100, but that is pure guesswork.

Malicus
05-21-2013, 05:58 AM
Karnegal I like how you think. That sounds good and even if it turns out to be wrong I like you for it.

Going to be hard to decide what to do with a primal for me - the desire to cash out vs the excitement of opening a whole bunch of rares/legendaries.

ShaolinRaven
05-21-2013, 06:02 AM
Karnegal I like how you think. That sounds good and even if it turns out to be wrong I like you for it.

Going to be hard to decide what to do with a primal for me - the desire to cash out vs the excitement of opening a whole bunch of rares/legendaries.

That question will be answered for me depending on if I (1) Still need rares/legendaries to complete the set and (2) How many different rares or legendaries I need for decks. If I have multiple decks that need more of various rares and such it might be better to open the pack and sell the ones I don't need, but if I only need one or two rare/legendary cards for a deck then the pack will probably get sold and that platinum go toward getting the singles.

Karnegal
05-21-2013, 01:33 PM
I think Malicus has it right. On average, you're making a decision of excitement vs. value. Over a large sample size, you'll probably be better served by just selling your primal packs and buying singles. However, it is pretty exciting to open a god pack, though I don't know if it's as exciting knowing that it's a god pack going in (I once opened an L5R deck that has something like 75-80% rares. That was pretty exciting because there was no reason to ever expect that that could happen).

What's important to note is that if primal packs are indeed rare (and I assume that will be the case) most players will receive very few in the course of the time as players. This means that individual experiences with them will be pretty swingy. Someone might open 3 over the course of a year and it 1 has 4 legendary cards, they're really going to remember that.

With all of that said, I'll probably open my free KS one because it's exciting, and then I'll probably sell future ones.

Fateanomaly
05-21-2013, 11:40 PM
I don't have any market price knowledge or anything but from what i can see primal will be about 10x of same set booster unless it primals have a higher chance of legendary. 10x means you have 10 r/l, 30 uc and 110 c. Lets say the c sells for 5cents and the uc for 10cents on average. That will be $8.50 which is equivalent to 4 packs.

Maybe its a little too optimistic to assume that the cards will get sold at all due to the flood of set 1 cards. Which may or may not be balance by the card sink through crafting. It might need to wait for the card value to be more stable after launch with new non KS players.

Milamber
05-22-2013, 07:53 AM
First in my concideration I don't believe there is a disproportionate flood of the entire set 1.
I'm not saying there isn't a @&#* tonne of cards but lets be rationale, the majority are commons and they will likely see the heavy end of the crafting hammer.
I'm lined up to recieve 300+ boosters. I saw somewhere that an aprox avg per backer was 120 somewhat recently. So lets use that. I'm sure someone can correct me if needed?
Now first starting with rares and legendaries. Concider that you need a play set or 4 of a card if you desire as playable.
If legendary is say 1:8 ratio that means likely @ 120 packs you see 15 legendaries. Your not going to have a playset of jack!
So onto rare 7:8 ratio, thats 105. Lets say by a miracle you recieve no more than 4 of a single rare you now have 26 rare playsets! dont know how many rares are in set 1 but I'd speculate at least double that of 50+
So fear that a healthy primal drop rate will bring the roof down is just not relivent in my mind, within this outlook.
Ok so...
I doubt as a one time investment ill ever have the experience or card geek joy of having this many packs again in a hit!
If the primal rate is .5 - 1% then there's a good chance ill recieve <2 possibly even 0 primals. Because there is no distrobution to make sure I do get 1:100 or if .5% 1:200 its individually calculated!
Now that is an aweful kick in the teeth!!
Seriously, really think about it. It's truly depressing if the drop rate is that low and that's with 300 packs!
At 300 packs this is my time to shine for the once off experience that it truly is.
That ratio gets worse for those that couldn't afford that level of buy in but still made a substantial buyin of $120 or $250.
Personally I don't know what the objective CZE had in introducing primals but I'm sure it was an awesome idea to further reward us as kickstarters and the player base in general by enhancing that child like magic of pack opening by using the advantages of digital. To give us that cool Easter egg. Surely not to make it so rare that it makes us jaded to hear when some one scores one.
When I here a backer say " so cool man I got 5 primal packs day one, here's some of the phat lootz I got...." I want my reaction to be "man, that's sweet as I got something like that too.... What was your favourite.." Not "@&$# you man, I never win crap:("

Now don't confuse this will a feeling of entitlement or CZE owing us or maximising value!
I pledged what I pledged for my belief, support and hope of the games vision. Chosen based on the rewards offered and in case of GK i admit lol a hope of a really cool escalation benefit on the last stretch as well as my thoughts that we currently under value the PVE content that I'm expecting to be imersive!
Rather I want to see this primal mechanic be that little treat that I'm sure it's intended to be not a frustration.
Anyways that's more than my .02c

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 07:59 AM
Personally, I would prefer a system where you receive a token that could be exchange from a primal pack randomly in packs, rather than immediately knowing it's a primal pack.

It would be much more exciting because you discover after opening a pack, rather than immediately after buying it.

...oh well. (Also, in that case, you can get them in drafts packs without affecting the draft itself.)

This would have been a great implementation.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 08:06 AM
This would have been a great implementation.

The upshot of the token system is that you could open one in a draft (assume that whoever opens it keeps it). Beyond that, I think the feeling is pretty similar. I buy a set of packs to draft later, BAM one is a primal cue fistpump.

To the guy above, as I said before, 1:50-1:100 seems perfectly reasonable for primals. I don't think that we should be seeing stacks of them through KS pledges. Each pack is essentially a bonus dozen packs.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 08:22 AM
The token system means that the resale value of a pack would be marginally higher to include the possibility of it being a primal pack.

I think 1/100 is probably the highest it should be.

At 1:100, about 22% of the King+ backers will receive 0 extra primals.
The average will be around 1.5.

There's also probably some lucky guy who will receive an obscenely high amount of primals.

Milamber
05-22-2013, 08:23 AM
This would have been a great implementation.

+1, I bet they wish they thought of that,
Though if they did theyd want to set stamp them otherwise I'd be buying them up like candy on AH and cash em in at the start of new set release .... And although I'd be idling like a Cheshire Cat I think it would be abusing the system

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 08:27 AM
The token system would also be basically giving you a free god pack in addition to your normal booster, instead of turning a booster into a god pack. So that would just be nicer in general.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 08:29 AM
Oh, I'm sure they thought of it but decided to keep it when it's generated for reasons unknown to us.

The only reason that comes to mind is that they wanted to increase the "value" of buying a pack directly from Cryptozoic over buying a reseller's pack, because you will never get a primal from the reseller.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 08:36 AM
On top of the booster re-selling notion, how mad would you be if you had only 3 boosters and queued for a draft, then once it started didn't have a third pack to play with because it was a primal?

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 08:44 AM
On top of the booster re-selling notion, how mad would you be if you had only 3 boosters and queued for a draft, then once it started didn't have a third pack to play with because it was a primal?


That doesn't create a problem with the token system. It's a normal pack with a primal token in it.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Ah, didn't realize you're giving the primal on top of the booster. I thought it was an empty booster with just a token. Well, that would mean that any pack you get from any means could be a primal then. Let's say draft winnings. If they give out boosters, those would then have a chance of being a bonus primal too. Tournaments generally bring in less in fees (collectively, not just individual) than they return in boosters, so you're talking about getting primals off of discounted boosters. You can't just say "well those won't drop them", because then they'd be sold on the AH with a value as if they could be primal, and basically be a minor scam. If you only get them from the store, and they are pre-revealed, then you wouldn't be giving out discount boosters, and no one gets burned.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 09:07 AM
Ah, didn't realize you're giving the primal on top of the booster. I thought it was an empty booster with just a token. Well, that would mean that any pack you get from any means could be a primal then. Let's say draft winnings. If they give out boosters, those would then have a chance of being a bonus primal too. Tournaments generally bring in less in fees (collectively, not just individual) than they return in boosters, so you're talking about getting primals off of discounted boosters. You can't just say "well those won't drop them", because then they'd be sold on the AH with a value as if they could be primal, and basically be a minor scam. If you only get them from the store, and they are pre-revealed, then you wouldn't be giving out discount boosters, and no one gets burned.

I don't think I am understanding your argument? If all boosters had a minor chance of dropping a primal token in addition to everything a normal booster drops how does anyone get burned? You win a set of boosters in a tournament, any of those could or could not contain a primal token... It actually seems worse if you can't end up with a primal pack from booster winnings in tournaments.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 09:09 AM
I'm having a hard time understanding what you just said...

AFAIK, tournament prizes already give a chance of getting primal packs.

If you're concerned about giving out a free god pack in addition to a regular pack, change the token to be an item that transforms a booster into a god pack, rather than be directly redeemable for a primal.

To clarify, my suggestion is currently:
When you open a pack, you will see if you get a primal token immediately (before seeing any of the cards in the pack). If you are in a situation where you can immediately redeem the token, you can use it on the same pack, converting it into a primal pack. (Redeem now? - This will transform your current pack into a sealed Primal Pack!) This option would not be available during sealed/drafts.
Conversely, you can save the token to transform a different booster into a primal. (Save for later? - you can use this token to transform a booster of the same set into a primal pack.)

jai151
05-22-2013, 09:10 AM
Ah, didn't realize you're giving the primal on top of the booster. I thought it was an empty booster with just a token. Well, that would mean that any pack you get from any means could be a primal then. Let's say draft winnings. If they give out boosters, those would then have a chance of being a bonus primal too. Tournaments generally bring in less in fees (collectively, not just individual) than they return in boosters, so you're talking about getting primals off of discounted boosters. You can't just say "well those won't drop them", because then they'd be sold on the AH with a value as if they could be primal, and basically be a minor scam. If you only get them from the store, and they are pre-revealed, then you wouldn't be giving out discount boosters, and no one gets burned.

Tournament winnings can already be primals.

ShaolinRaven
05-22-2013, 09:14 AM
I don't think I am understanding your argument? If all boosters had a minor chance of dropping a primal token in addition to everything a normal booster drops how does anyone get burned? You win a set of boosters in a tournament, any of those could or could not contain a primal token... It actually seems worse if you can't end up with a primal pack from booster winnings in tournaments.

You can end up with primal packs from booster winnings, the only time a booster pack doesn't have a chance to be a primal is the initial booster packs you draft with.

The benefit to the pack being the primal instead of a token is you know off the bat. The knowledge helps in figuring out if you want to open the pack or AH it. If every pack had a chance to drop a token then the amount of boosters on the AH and the resell price would get skewed on the AH as people tried to inflate the booster price because it "might have a token" vs the pack just outright identifying as a primal.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 09:17 AM
You can end up with primal packs from booster winnings, the only time a booster pack doesn't have a chance to be a primal is the initial booster packs you draft with.

The benefit to the pack being the primal instead of a token is you know off the bat. The knowledge helps in figuring out if you want to open the pack or AH it. If every pack had a chance to drop a token then the amount of boosters on the AH and the resell price would get skewed on the AH as people tried to inflate the booster price because it "might have a token" vs the pack just outright identifying as a primal.

It rolls the value of a primal pack into the price of the booster on the AH, but that's actually surprisingly minor.
Say a primal pack is worth 7.5 packs, or $15, and has a 1% chance of dropping. The added value to the pack is ($15-2)*0.01 = $0.13.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 09:17 AM
So, I just don't see a good reason to throw primal packs around like candy. They could, sure. I just don't see why they should. There's going to be a lot of cards handed out from drafting, which aren't full price packs. There are people here talking about drop rates of 1 in 20, giving a full booster on top of the primal pack, etc. What about the pro player tiers? Would their 3 free drafts a week, since they're opening boosters, have a chance at primals (the tokens)? I just don't see what's wrong with the concept as it is, or why primal packs should be given out more often, for higher value, and with less cost. I don't see how having a magical moment where you buy the pack, and see if it's primal or not, is any different than opening a pack and finding a token. All it does is inflate booster prices by throwing in that "hey, it might be a primal" chance.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 09:21 AM
The only added primal drops with my system over the current system would be from freebie drafts.

i.e. 2050 * 3 * Drop Chance (Probably around 1 in 100) = 61.5 Primals on average, assuming 100% of PP+ uses their draft benefit (unlikely) that week.

There's nothing stopping them, however, from having two types of packs. One with a chance of dropping primals (bought/won packs) and one without having a chance of dropping primals (free packs and packs used in phantom drafts) which would result in the exact same distribution as the current system.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 09:27 AM
But what advantage is there to changing it? I don't see why they'd need to add a system where you get tokens, exchange tokens, throwing in multiple pack types if you wanted to prevent market changes, etc, just to use tokens instead. If they just had a fancy animation where you get handed the booster when you buy it, wouldn't that do the same thing as a 'token', without inflating booster prices? And I do happen to find 13 cents a booster significant for the inflation of the AH value if all you're looking to do is draft. That's almost a 7% price increase from the base $2, more if the prices are lower on the AH.

Daer
05-22-2013, 09:33 AM
The way Primal Packs work is fine.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 09:33 AM
They aren't really changing anything are they? Since right now there is no game to change, they could change direction on their implementation before the game releases if they like this idea better... Nothing is actually in the game until the game launches.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 09:33 AM
The argument that people initially made is that it makes opening packs more exciting because ANY pack might be a primal. Then you get the added excitement of opening the primal you get for redeeming your token.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 09:38 AM
Again, I disagree that it's any more exciting. Any could still be a primal, you just know when you get it, which can have its own sparkly animation where a booster is ripped open showing a primal or something. Buying cheap ones on the AH won't give you primals as it was originally described. I support that to prevent the market price of boosters from inflating, which is annoying for someone who's drafting.

Edit: What I'm saying is personal preference for graphics isn't necessarily a good reason to change market dynamics.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 09:42 AM
There are no market dynamics. There is no implementation. Your entire argument seems to be your want to save money on drafts. That's not a great reason in my opinion to implement an inferior design. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 09:43 AM
Well, you're at an impasse because other people here are disagreeing with you one what they find exciting.

However, you notion of what quantifies significant is also not something that others are agreeing on. If I draft 7 times a week, win 0 packs and must purchase all of my packs, it's still less than 3 dollars difference. That's a very small amount of cash for a TCG. Moreover, if you buy in bulk, you'll eventually hit primals which you can just sell to recoup the difference.

Deathfog
05-22-2013, 09:45 AM
Seeing as drafts for boosters are bought directly from Crypto, usually, the restriction of draft boosters not being primals only really applies to those who get free drafts which generate 3 packs on the fly. This makes sense as you couldn't/shouldn't be able to bring a primal to a draft anyway and it keeps the Pro+ tier from being too excessively valuable, mostly the former than the latter I'd assume.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 09:46 AM
Seeing as drafts for boosters are bought directly from Crypto, usually, the restriction of draft boosters not being primals only really applies to those who get free drafts which generate 3 packs on the fly. This makes sense as you couldn't/shouldn't be able to bring a primal to a draft anyway and it keeps the Pro+ tier from being too excessively valuable, mostly the former than the latter I'd assume.

I disagree that boosters are usually bought from CZ. On MTGO a lot of boosters come from draft prizes that are resold on the market. With an even better market, i would imagine that this will also be true for Hex.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 10:03 AM
The thing that trips me up about this idea is that you say you want it for the 'effect'. If it's simply about effect, why can't that be done at the time of purchase? Is the fact you bought a booster and sat on it for a week the part that makes it exciting? I might see why some wouldn't like just being told they have 3 primals from the KS pile, but that's not necessarily a good reason to implement a different system. I just don't understand how this adds to an effect.


There are no market dynamics.

Bull. $1,000,000 has been spent on this game in KS. Just because the AH isn't running doesn't mean there isn't a market for boosters. And you're talking about a primal pack being a primal voucher AND a booster. You're talking about something that changes the value of cards on the AH. All I'm saying is that your idea is NOT purely graphical. It has a widespread impact on the market and value of the biggest commodity in the entire game. If your idea was purely graphical, I'd be all for having the option. I think one of the reasons that Hex is appealing is because of how cheap and easy it is to get in and play a draft at any time, day or night. Making that cost more money is a serious implication. 10% is a lot. Stop using dollars and cents to make it sound insignificant. If you have X amount of dollars to spend, losing 10% sucks. If a guy loses $3 because he played 7 games that week, it sounds like nothing. But if he plays that for 5 years, that's almost $800 disappearing into the ether.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 10:10 AM
It's not just an effect.

Having the primal packs rolled at the time the booster is generated increases the incentive to buy new packs, whereas having the primal packs rolled at the time the booster is opened increases the incentive to open old packs.

Also, you seem to have completely skipped my recommendation.


To clarify, my suggestion is currently:

When you open a pack, you will see if you get a primal token immediately (before seeing any of the cards in the pack). If you are in a situation where you can immediately redeem the token, you can use it on the same pack, converting it into a primal pack.
(i.e. Redeem now? - This will transform your current pack into a sealed Primal Pack!)
This option would not be available during sealed/drafts.

Conversely, you can save the token to transform a different booster into a primal.
(i.e. Save for later? - you can use this token to transform a booster of the same set into a primal pack.)

That said, the net added cost in the long run of both systems (to the player) is the same.
If you win a primal pack from opening a booster, you can sell it back on the market to recoup the cost and then open up more packs.

Edit: IMO, opening a booster to find it's a primal would entice F2P only players to buy more boosters (on the AH or from Cryptozoic) more than a system where you only get it at pack generation.

Edit2: The reason I suggested converting the current pack into a Primal is to avoid a situation where a player "earns" a primal pack but can't actually open it without spending money.

ShaolinRaven
05-22-2013, 10:13 AM
Having the primal packs rolled at the time the booster is generated increases the incentive to buy new packs,

I would prefer this anyway as it encourages people to buy from Crypto over the AH and generating more sales for Crypto means more investment into the game down the road.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 10:17 AM
I would prefer this anyway as it encourages people to buy from Crypto over the AH and generating more sales for Crypto means more investment into the game down the road.

IMO, opening a booster to find it's a primal would entice F2P-only players to buy more boosters (on the AH or from Cryptozoic) more than a system where you only get it at pack generation. I feel it would increase the number of paying players in the long-run.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 10:26 AM
I was against the token idea at first, because it seemed to make things simpler as it is right now, but I can see that I was wrong. The token system makes all packs equal, and makes the math simpler. Not just for players, but makes it easier for Cryptozoic to exactly determine how many rares/legendaries are out in the wild. It's a simply a percentage of packs. Without the token system, the number of packs doesn't equal to a relative number of rare/legendaries are out there in the wild since draft packs cannot be primal packs. If a draft format isn't popular, then there is a higher percent of rares per pack out in the wild. If a draft format is extremely popular, then that rare to pack ratio is greatly reduced. Depending on how often primal packs pop up, that could create significant changes to card prices.

The primal token gives Cryptozoic better control of how many rares/legendary cards they want in the wild, so I'm all for it.

LexC
05-22-2013, 10:30 AM
The way I understood it there is a chance of a pack being a Primal when you purchase it, in my mind this meant that a normal pack and a primal pack have two different wrappers.

So if I buy a pack from Crypto or win a pack in a dungeon or buy a pack from a vendor, that is the moment the pack comes in to existance, this pack might be created as a normal or primal.

This way I can do two things, open it or sell it. So if it's a Primal I might want to sell it for a higher ammount on the AH.

Also, we know that we can use any pack to Draft with apart from Primal (Regardless of where we go them, Crypo, KS or AH), so if we have two different packs this way we know which one is to be used during Drafts and which one to be saved for the AH.

Another thing is, if the pack has a chance of being a Draft when we open it and we know that it is not going to be a primal pack during a Draft game than the chances of packs becoming Primal are segnifinatlely lower, meaning if you know that you'll get 10 Primals out of 100 packs and you decide to use 30 of them on Drafts then the theoretical 10 Primals just turned in to 7. That would suck in my opinion.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Tyrfang, you mean making a second kind of booster pack just for free drafters? Well because those packs have to be used anyways, it still wouldn't impact the cost of base boosters on the AH. They would only be impacting the value of the primals themselves, which is a different debate that means a lot less to drafting. I agree that it would be crazy to just throw more money at PP's though.

Is there a reason for the incentive to be at consumption instead of purchase? Honest question. If it isn't just for effect, it's for market. I know the idea doesn't only change the effect, which is why I'm hesitant to support it. What's the value to the market, the player, etc. for the consumption to be the reward? The same number of packs will be produced either way, between winnings and storefront, all working at the same rarity. The only thing else different about your idea is that you get a free booster pack with your primal. Is it that you want the AH boosters to be a higher price, closer to the storefront value?

Generating it at purchase leads to an increased value of buying at $2. Generating at opening leads to a value increase on AH boosters (like from draft winnings). If you can sort them first, the value of primals will be higher because people will be focusing on those packs to purchase. If you can't sort them first, the value of boosters is higher, and the value of primals is reduced slightly because people can buy cheaper boosters to take that same chance as the $2 storefront. With those two scenarios, I think lower price boosters would do better for the market in general. Lower booster prices on the AH would support more people drafting. They would know they aren't going to get a primal when they go to play a tournament, but people buying boosters or winning boosters would be getting a reveal.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 10:45 AM
If a draft format isn't popular, then there is a higher percent of rares per pack out in the wild. If a draft format is extremely popular, then that rare to pack ratio is greatly reduced.

That depends entirely on the drop rate of primal packs. If primal packs are .5%, and we know rares+ are 6.7% in standard boosters, that allows for 7.2% of cards to be rare+, while uncommons would be at just under 20%, and commons making the rest. This is exactly why primal packs shouldn't be something big like 5 or 10%, because the % chance of a primal pack has a significant impact on distribution rates.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 10:50 AM
I'm having a hard time following your logic.


It's not just an effect.

Having the primal packs rolled at the time the booster is generated increases the incentive to buy new packs, whereas having the primal packs rolled at the time the booster is opened increases the incentive to open old packs.

Also, you seem to have completely skipped my recommendation.

That said, the net added cost in the long run of both systems (to the player) is the same.
If you win a primal pack from opening a booster, you can sell it back on the market to recoup the cost and then open up more packs.

Edit: IMO, opening a booster to find it's a primal would entice F2P only players to buy more boosters (on the AH or from Cryptozoic) more than a system where you only get it at pack generation.

Edit2: The reason I suggested converting the current pack into a Primal is to avoid a situation where a player "earns" a primal pack but can't actually open it without spending money.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 11:08 AM
Wait, these tickets, do you mean to go buy a primal, or given one for free? That second edit sounds like you have to go buy it, and then I can see the edge case you're talking about in edit 2 being real annoying.

Problem is, edit 1 says opening a booster to get a primal would be enticing. Sure, but you only get them through the consumption of pay currency. Even if you traded your time from PvE for someone else's money, it's still a consumption of money that they have to do before a primal could happen. If primals are a 1% chance, odds are that guy who only got that one pack that one time won't ever get a primal anyways, even if they were in the packs. He paid $1.75 once for his chance to get a primal instead of $2. But it would pretty much guarantee the price of the boosters goes up.

Saying you can recover the cost of packs by selling primals is still kind of adding a hassle for no reason other than that 1% case where that one free player got a primal, and might have been so excited that he bought another pack. And it's still increasing the price of drafts up front, which is one of the more alluring parts of the pay side of this game. $6.25 for AH packs to use for a draft that may have a primal, vs $5.50 for AH packs that cannot be primals, for someone who wants to try drafting out. I don't think that worrying about a guy who can only afford a second booster if it's a primal is going to increase net sales of boosters higher than encouraging drafting through lower prices.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 11:10 AM
The thing that trips me up about this idea is that you say you want it for the 'effect'. If it's simply about effect, why can't that be done at the time of purchase? Is the fact you bought a booster and sat on it for a week the part that makes it exciting? I might see why some wouldn't like just being told they have 3 primals from the KS pile, but that's not necessarily a good reason to implement a different system. I just don't understand how this adds to an effect.



Bull. $1,000,000 has been spent on this game in KS. Just because the AH isn't running doesn't mean there isn't a market for boosters. And you're talking about a primal pack being a primal voucher AND a booster. You're talking about something that changes the value of cards on the AH. All I'm saying is that your idea is NOT purely graphical. It has a widespread impact on the market and value of the biggest commodity in the entire game. If your idea was purely graphical, I'd be all for having the option. I think one of the reasons that Hex is appealing is because of how cheap and easy it is to get in and play a draft at any time, day or night. Making that cost more money is a serious implication. 10% is a lot. Stop using dollars and cents to make it sound insignificant. If you have X amount of dollars to spend, losing 10% sucks. If a guy loses $3 because he played 7 games that week, it sounds like nothing. But if he plays that for 5 years, that's almost $800 disappearing into the ether.

You're wrong though. You're only losing the money in the short term. The odds apply to you too, so you'll ALSO get proportionally more primal packs, which if you sell them, will offset your costs.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 11:13 AM
That depends entirely on the drop rate of primal packs. If primal packs are .5%, and we know rares+ are 6.7% in standard boosters, that allows for 7.2% of cards to be rare+, while uncommons would be at just under 20%, and commons making the rest. This is exactly why primal packs shouldn't be something big like 5 or 10%, because the % chance of a primal pack has a significant impact on distribution rates.

And why I prefer the tokens because Cryptozoic can have an exact distribution of rares set, regardless of how popular or unpopular a specific draft format is. They can make primal packs appear however frequently they like as long as rares are more rare than uncommons, it will always be consistent.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 11:15 AM
You basically make a primal pack out of a booster pack and a primal token, which you can then sell/trade or open.

You say it's a hassle to convert the primal into a digital, but then say that it's really rare for the free player to get a primal. By that logic, though...
1) It'd be really rare for it to occur in either case.
2) Someone purchasing a regular booster through the Cryptozoic store would also be "hassled" by primal packs.

Also the increased upfront cost is washed out by the fact that you might "earn" primals in your draft packs, increasing the demand for drafting.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 11:19 AM
And why I prefer the tokens because Cryptozoic can have an exact distribution of rares set, regardless of how popular or unpopular a specific draft format is. They can make primal packs appear however frequently they like as long as rares are more rare than uncommons, it will always be consistent.

They can do that at the store too. They're the ones who determine who gets what packs. They can do whatever they want for distribution rates and don't have to tell us.


You're wrong though. You're only losing the money in the short term. The odds apply to you too, so you'll ALSO get proportionally more primal packs, which if you sell them, will offset your costs.

Short term losses are still a loss. It's still a barrier to entry, because what about a guy who only wants to play a few drafts? He might never get that primal pack to reimburse his higher draft fees. This means that some people are paying more in this system, even if a long-term player will break even.

Digital_Aether
05-22-2013, 11:24 AM
say that it's really rare for the free player to get a primal. By that logic, though...
1) It'd be really rare for it to occur in either case.

Exactly. Trying to pay no money at all, using only time, and getting a primal pack to drop, will likely be an INCREDIBLY rare occurrence even with boosters being able to turn primal. All you're doing is very marginally increasing their chance at someone getting a primal, but you're putting up front fees on draft. It's a hassle because it's an up front fee. Buying $2 packs from the store and getting a primal when you want to draft would do the same thing. You don't have to buy those though, as you can get the ones on the AH that you know aren't primals, and cost less. Lower barrier of entry because I'm not waiting for a primal pack to drop to recover the increased draft fees.

Tyrfang
05-22-2013, 12:03 PM
Huh? I'm just pointing out a flaw in your logic.

It's not rare at all for people to buy packs 1 at a time. In fact, it'd probably be a daily occurrence to open a primal pack on your single booster purchase.

It's "lower barrier" of entry, but I think the excitement (and added incentive to drafters) of opening a primal pack during a booster would outweigh the added 20-30 cents per draft.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 12:11 PM
They can do that at the store too. They're the ones who determine who gets what packs. They can do whatever they want for distribution rates and don't have to tell us.

So you're suggesting they alter how many primal packs appear based on how many drafts are played? X+Y(#ofDrafts)% of the time rather than X%? I guess that could work. That would feel extremely odd though.

And just because they don't tell us, the community will for sure figure out the primal pack rate is changing, and when it goes lower, there will be an uproar especially if we don't know why. On top of that, it would effectively punish people who never draft and just like to bust open packs for constructed, just because Cryptozoic made a less popular draft environment.

Karnegal
05-22-2013, 01:13 PM
They can do that at the store too. They're the ones who determine who gets what packs. They can do whatever they want for distribution rates and don't have to tell us.



Short term losses are still a loss. It's still a barrier to entry, because what about a guy who only wants to play a few drafts? He might never get that primal pack to reimburse his higher draft fees. This means that some people are paying more in this system, even if a long-term player will break even.

Now we'e back to me (and it seems most everyone else active here) disagreeing with you on what is a significant loss.

Chance
05-22-2013, 01:36 PM
you guys forget primals drop a 'treasure' as well we dont know what that means