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View Full Version : Please don't make non-basic ressource at rare/legendary



Helacious
05-14-2013, 10:55 AM
So I was reading a thread where OP_Kyle said that basic ressource cards are free and unlimited and that there will be non-basic ressources in the game. Cool thing, I like non-basic ressources.

But please don't make put them in the rare/legendary slot.

A big problem in Magic in all formats is the huge barrier entry that the manabase created. Decks in standard cost in average 400$, most of it because of the non-basics ressources. Same thing in modern. In legacy dual lands are stupid expensive but that's because of another problem (the no-reprint policy they have for certain cards).


Almost every single serious deck need those lands, so there is a big demand for them. Coupled with the low supply of them appearing in the rare slot (you'd get about 1-3 of those lands in a box of 36 boosters in magic) the price is at such a threshold that it intimidates a lot of players in playing constructed formats.


Now I know a booster by itself will cost less (2 dollar vs 4) but that's all relative. If the occurrence of non-basic ressources would be the same as magic, the total cost % of the deck that is from the manabase would still be the same.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 11:00 AM
I don't really see how rare lands are any worse than other rare cards from the perspective of making it expensive to play constructed tournaments.

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 11:01 AM
Yeah, I can see this becoming a problem for any card that becomes a staple in multiple decks. Lands in particular have this issue.
I recall cashing out my Magic collection years ago, and my non-basic lands sold for the most at around 5-12 dollars each...

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:06 AM
I don't really see how rare lands are any worse than other rare cards from the perspective of making it expensive to play constructed tournaments.

The difference between rare land and any other rare card is how many different decks will want to use that card. The demand of your average rare land will be much higher than your average rare card because Timmy wants the Blue/White land for his Blue/White/Black control deck, Johnny wants it for his Blue/White lifegain deck, Spike wants it for his Blue/White/Green creature pump deck etc. etc. Your average rare card fits into much less deck archetypes while the rare land fits into a lot of them, which create a big demand.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:09 AM
How are lands an issue?
You can put them in many different decks, it's an entry-fee but it's also the best invesment

Common dual lands would spam draft packs otherwise

~

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 11:09 AM
Helacious, that's part of the reason for the demand. The other part is that about a third of your deck HAS to be resource cards, so improving on a basic resource automatically improves your deck, whereas replacing any other spell in your deck might not necessarily be better.

Also...Timmy with a control deck?

SingerOfW
05-14-2013, 11:14 AM
Keep in mind that splashing additional colors is already much easier in Hex than in Magic because of the threshold system. You don't have to keep that many dual resources in play to be able to cast every single spell you draw. And having easy access to all five colors easily leads to "The Blob": a deck that simply plays all the best spells around, without concerning itself with color screw (which is supposed to be the built-in countermeasure to such decks).

All this stuff, however, doesn't really depend on the rarity of the cards, unless we're talking about Limited/Draft. If a set is designed in such a way that you're supposed to play 2 or 3 colors, then you should totally expect mana-fixing at common and uncommon. If the set has more important matters to focus on, though, you'll probably only see the dual lands at rares, simply so it won't be too easy to splash cards.

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:16 AM
How are lands an issue?
You can put them in many different decks, it's an entry-fee but it's also the best invesment

Common dual lands would spam draft packs otherwise

~

The only reason it's a good investment in magic is that the population grows (in legacy, modern, standard) but they only reprint the rare lands needed once in a while. The supply is fixed/get a temp shot up (like shocks in the moment) and the demand gradually grows up all the time. And I don't think they should be common. I think they should be the "legendary/mythic" equivalent for the uncommon, a rarity between uncommon and rare.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 11:17 AM
How are lands an issue?
You can put them in many different decks, it's an entry-fee but it's also the best invesment


That's not exclusive to lands though. There have been several artifacts that earned even more inclusion in Magic over the years.

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:18 AM
Helacious, that's part of the reason for the demand. The other part is that about a third of your deck HAS to be resource cards, so improving on a basic resource automatically improves your deck, whereas replacing any other spell in your deck might not necessarily be better.

Also...Timmy with a control deck?

Monocolored decks don't run shock/taplands so they aren't necessarily strictly better (except for the original dual lands). But yes that goes without saying.

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:24 AM
Keep in mind that splashing additional colors is already much easier in Hex than in Magic because of the threshold system.

Can you clarify that point for me? From what I understand the threshold system is pretty much the # of lands you have in magic. From what I understand a non-basic red/white ressource would give you a red/white crystal threshold which is pretty much the Magic system.

Rieper
05-14-2013, 11:25 AM
How good a card can be is often decided on rareity it gets. Common can not be as good as a rare. So making good ressources anything else then rare/legendary also means they limit themself in what they can do with ressources.

If good old duel lands from magic had been uncommon or common, suddenly they more or less couldnīt make other lands without kinda screwing up they rarity system and maybe even annoying people. Who wants to pull a "pain land" when you jsut had "duel lands" a lower rarity....

Same reason 1/1 for 1 with good text always ends up rares, and 1/1 for 1 without anything(or with negative effect) goes to common.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:26 AM
If you have 1 blood and 1 ruby.
You can play 2 blood cards that have 1 Threshold while you couldnt in magic

~

SingerOfW
05-14-2013, 11:28 AM
Can you clarify that point for me? From what I understand the threshold system is pretty much the # of lands you have in magic. From what I understand a non-basic red/white ressource would give you a red/white crystal threshold which is pretty much the Magic system.
Every spell in Hex costs colorless mana, you just can't cast them unless you have the sufficient threshold. So, for example, if you have thresholds of 2 Blood and 2 Ruby, you can cast two spells with 2 Blood in a single turn.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Gonna love how we both picked Blood and Ruby - I blame Graven Cairns.

houjix
05-14-2013, 11:28 AM
Not really sure what they are talking about outside of if you have 5 wild cards that all require only 1 wild threshold, you can play all those wild cards in the same turn as long as you pulled one wild resource. In Magic, you need the speciifc color of mana for each one. An improvement but still limited.

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:31 AM
To generalize :
Threshold means you CAN cast a card.
Mana (colorless) is how you CAST the card.

~

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:32 AM
Also it would be nice to have fetch lands, the "price" would be that you don't get a charge or something.

~

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:35 AM
How good a card can be is often decided on rareity it gets. Common can not be as good as a rare. So making good ressources anything else then rare/legendary also means they limit themself in what they can do with ressources.

If good old duel lands from magic had been uncommon or common, suddenly they more or less couldnīt make other lands without kinda screwing up they rarity system and maybe even annoying people. Who wants to pull a "pain land" when you jsut had "duel lands" a lower rarity....

Same reason 1/1 for 1 with good text always ends up rares, and 1/1 for 1 without anything(or with negative effect) goes to common.

Of course a common can be as good as a rare. Decks in magic are far from being 100% rares. Yes good cards are often rare. But rarity itself doesn't mean anything in regard of if a card is good or not. For exemple, Magic also use the rare slot for complicated cards that newcomers would have a hard time grasping. Rares are also used for big fat creatures that Timmy loves. And finally the rare slot is used for controlling the draft and sealed environment. Ponder for example is a common from Magic 2012 that was banned because it was too good.

Helacious
05-14-2013, 11:39 AM
Every spell in Hex costs colorless mana, you just can't cast them unless you have the sufficient threshold. So, for example, if you have thresholds of 2 Blood and 2 Ruby, you can cast two spells with 2 Blood in a single turn.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Gonna love how we both picked Blood and Ruby - I blame Graven Cairns.

Ah ok, this lessens the need for dual lands as the game goes on but they are still a necessity if you have a lot of early (1-3 drops) cards that are of different colors and you want to be sure to be able to cast them during those 1-3 turns. To insure that early game consistency of getting the color threshold you want dual-lands will still be needed. But they are less important for midrange style decks I suppose.

Xenavire
05-14-2013, 11:45 AM
I think the best balancing act they can do to dual lands is they give two threshold, and no mana, or your choice of one, and one mana. Giving both and a mana would be too strong.

Still, it seems like they wont be as vital as they are in magic.

cross09
05-14-2013, 11:45 AM
I personally like the idea of rare dual lands or pain lands...

Fireblast
05-14-2013, 11:46 AM
Why would you play 3 colours weenie? :/

~

Devaux
05-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Why would you play 3 colours weenie? :/

~

The current Naya Blitz deck is 3-color weenie. Also Timmy is allowed to like control.

Back to the thread though.

Sets need chase rares and duals make good chase rares. And having them at lower rarities can cause problems in the limited environment. And they're healthy for the game overall because it allows more flexibility in deck construction.

I too hate spending half/more than half of the deck's cost on lands but it comes with the territory(har.)

Tyrfang
05-14-2013, 01:24 PM
Well on the plus side, primal packs will alleviate the supply constraints of rares/legendaries somewhat.

WSzaboPeter
05-14-2013, 02:02 PM
First of all, Mythic lands are very rare in magic (if I recall correctly only two where printed and they don't produce colored mana), and people are happy with this. The current rare dual lands are in the range of $10, imagine if they would have been reprinted as mythics.
Now it's quite easy to see, that if they would be uncommon the average cost of decks would be a lot lower. The thing is there is no way a threshold to enter the battlefield tapped or untapped. (The usual difference between rare and non-rare dual lands), but I think HEX could have things that increase your threshold at the beginning of the next turn.
But the real point is, that deck building should focus on threats and answer, then you should be able to add manabase/shardbase/threshold-base to it relatively cheap.
I would love if the aftermarket value of the best mana fixing solutions would be 1-2 dollars tops, not 5, and deffinitely not 10+.

Twztyd
05-14-2013, 02:03 PM
I think the best balancing act they can do to dual lands is they give two threshold, and no mana, or your choice of one, and one mana. Giving both and a mana would be too strong.

Still, it seems like they wont be as vital as they are in magic.

You called out the point I wanted to make, basic resources allow you to get one charge, one threshold and one mana. I am all for seeing variants on this but I would hope that they give and take away. I like the idea of two thresholds (same or diff colors) and no mana or perhaps two mana but no threshold. Maybe even two of one and one of the other, but no charge counter. I think that would help keep the balance.

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 04:11 PM
You called out the point I wanted to make, basic resources allow you to get one charge, one threshold and one mana. I am all for seeing variants on this but I would hope that they give and take away. I like the idea of two thresholds (same or diff colors) and no mana or perhaps two mana but no threshold. Maybe even two of one and one of the other, but no charge counter. I think that would help keep the balance.

This would be perfect as far as customising your deck goes. I dislike cards that are strictly better than other cards, but cards that have trade-offs, that make you make a choice to be strong in one area while losing out in another area, are the cards that really allow players to focus their decks exactly the way they want them.

Ebynfel
05-14-2013, 04:31 PM
They have options, and I believe they can be pulled off at uncommon rarity. Let's go back to Zendikar in M:tG. They had uncommon duels, and they had the rare fetches. The fetches are remembered though, as they give you an affect on the turn they are played. Uncommon and common duals tend to hold off a turn to be useful.

This, I don't believe, is necessary here. With all a basic resource gives you, some give and take, or choice of stat, in a max 4 of card, shouldn't be too bad of an idea at uncommon. Sets should be large enough that we don't see tons of them in limited, and finding a really useful one with tradeoffs late in the draft could mean solid gold or complete blank. There's just too many options, especially in a digital card space like we have here, to demand high prices for premium resources needed to stay competitive. Yes, in M:tG they are expensive and necessary in multi-colored decks. Here, they may be necessary but there are ways to work out if they will be expensive.
An advanced resource base will always be worth more than many other cards, regardless of rarity printings. I am just of the mind that constructed should have a low barrier of entry in comparison to other games. With a digital space and new game, Crypto has the opportunity to make a real, thriving, eternal format. Resources will play a HUGE role in that.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 05:12 PM
The point about larger sets is a fair one. But the refuges were doable at uncommon because they were weaker also. Its not an accident that competitive duals don't pop up below rare and the reasons for that aren't because they're on paper vs being digital.

Sure, I'd love to have competitive duals at uncommon but I certainly will not hold my breath and I don't really have a problem with it either.

Vibraxus
05-14-2013, 05:18 PM
You called out the point I wanted to make, basic resources allow you to get one charge, one threshold and one mana. I am all for seeing variants on this but I would hope that they give and take away. I like the idea of two thresholds (same or diff colors) and no mana or perhaps two mana but no threshold. Maybe even two of one and one of the other, but no charge counter. I think that would help keep the balance.


This exactly. Having a true "dual land" card is quite overpowered with how the threshold works.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 05:33 PM
Is it though? How is it mechanically different than a dual in Magic?

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 05:35 PM
Is it though? How is it mechanically different than a dual in Magic?

Well dual lands are pretty overpowered in Magic.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 05:37 PM
For me, the lesson of the true dual land in MTG is: Don't make it. At any rarity. There is a reason they stopped re-printing the duals. By all means, make dual lands with a drawback, at whatever rarity seems appropriate. Just make sure they aren't so good, there's no reason to leave them out of any deck (besides cost).

Devaux
05-14-2013, 05:38 PM
That may be but he said it was OP because of how threshold works and I'm saying its not any worse than without threshold.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 05:46 PM
For me, the lesson of the true dual land in MTG is: Don't make it. At any rarity. There is a reason they stopped re-printing the duals. By all means, make dual lands with a drawback, at whatever rarity seems appropriate. Just make sure they aren't so good, there's no reason to leave them out of any deck (besides cost).

I agree that lands strictly better than basics isn't a good thing. Still there are plenty of ways to make duals that aren't strictly better than basics.

Turtlewing
05-14-2013, 05:51 PM
That may be but he said it was OP because of how threshold works and I'm saying its not any worse than without threshold.

It's not really OP because of how threshold works but it would be op for a reasourse to do everyone a basic reasourse does and give threshold for 2 colors.

Though it'd probably be fine in PvE.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 05:52 PM
I agree that lands strictly better than basics isn't a good thing. Still there are plenty of ways to make duals that aren't strictly better than basics.

Absolutely. I love creative non-basic lands that force you to sacrifice something to get something else. I do sympathize with the OP, however, when it comes to "must have" non-basic lands. There is a fine line between good non-basics and cards that you basically need in your deck so that you aren't at an automatic disadvantage, at least in constructed with more than 1 color.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 06:06 PM
Absolutely. I love creative non-basic lands that force you to sacrifice something to get something else. I do sympathize with the OP, however, when it comes to "must have" non-basic lands. There is a fine line between good non-basics and cards that you basically need in your deck so that you aren't at an automatic disadvantage, at least in constructed with more than 1 color.

To be fair. The advantage of smoothing your colors is usually more than worth the disadvantages attached to duals just by the nature of running multiple colors.

I know that unless dual resources are radically less useful than dual lands are I'm going to consider them must haves in my multi-shard constructed decks.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 06:20 PM
To be fair. The advantage of smoothing your colors is usually more than worth the disadvantages attached to duals just by the nature of running multiple colors.

I know that unless dual resources are radically less useful than dual lands are I'm going to consider them must haves in my multi-shard constructed decks.

Good point. Hopefully Tyrfang is right about the effect that primal packs will have on the overall supply of rares. Obviously there are going to be high-demand cards that will command higher prices, but it does seem like dual lands could be especially painful.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 06:25 PM
Good point. Hopefully Tyrfang is right about the effect that primal packs will have on the overall supply of rares. Obviously there are going to be high-demand cards that will command higher prices, but it does seem like dual lands could be especially painful.

I mean there have to be some cards that cost more than others. It may as well be the mots versatile ones.

The upside is that even though they cost more I feel less bad about buying them because its more like an investment. You'll be using them for awhile.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 06:34 PM
True. I am really interested to see how the economy shakes out with a proper auction house. I see a lot of possibilities to trade up for value cards without breaking the bank.

Devaux
05-14-2013, 06:40 PM
I'm excited too. Trading physical cards can be like pulling teeth and the MTGO classifieds system is.... less than elegant. As somebody who spent most of their time in WoW playing the auction house I'm pretty excited for it.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 06:48 PM
"Less than elegant", I love it. MTGO classifieds were pretty rough. I spent a lot of time on the WoW auction house as well, and with the possibilities of multiple levels of currency, PvE and PvP cards, and the crafting system, I can already see some ideas forming for making a profit.

Gen91
05-23-2013, 04:10 AM
They could just limit the number of rare/legendary ressources one can have per deck.

Fireblast
05-23-2013, 04:12 AM
They could just limit the number of rare/legendary ressources one can have per deck.

Rare resources are not an issue

~

Rapierian
05-23-2013, 07:18 AM
I, for one, love rare/multicolored lands. I don't know why you don't want them in the game.

houjix
05-23-2013, 07:20 AM
As was pointed out in another thread, there is a Rare resource shown in the Auction house image on the KS page.