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View Full Version : Subscriptions are going to Dilute the Value of this Game



Stok3d
05-14-2013, 08:43 PM
The original concern noted below the quote is now mute per update #7:


There have been a lot of questions about the subscription feature. When naming it, we didn't really consider the dissonance that would occur with HEX, a free to play game, and the term 'subscription.' It's opt-in after all, providing each player a few packs each month at a discount and some cool bonus stuff like the monthly exclusive VIP tournament and the deck "goldfish" tool. It's all upside and none of it is needed to play. So, we're calling it the VIP Program to make sure nobody gets confused.

We've also received a lot of questions from backers worried that players will game the system, opening multiple accounts to stack VIP Program booster packs. This program is intended to be one-per-player as a cool way to let our community access some packs at a discount and get some sweet bonus stuff. But, we do understand that there will always be a small percentage of players who are always looking to game the system. We're aware of this and have powerful analytical tools to determine when this is occurring and will handle those instances accordingly.



Subscriptions are $4 and give 4x packs a month and entry into a tourn.

Well, anyone who is hardcore on buying packs will simply make say 25x Alt accounts, spend $100 / month and get 100x packs and 25x tourn entries. Many will ask "What's the problem here. It's a win for the company which in turn will be a win for the user."

Wrong. This is a loss for the end user. Whatever is the cheapest method of attaining cards will be the highest point the secondary market will be selling them. Basically, what I'm saying is that why on earth would anyone pay $2 for a pack of cards when you can get it for $1 and a free tourn entry?

The long term value of our cards will quickly dilute. A reason why MTGO helped keeped it's prices up is that so many cards are removed from circulation from set redemption. This isn't the case here. Card values can quickly implode as the company continually cheapens it's product.

Also, what I fear is the fact that cards can "improve" via an experience bar. What is to stop this guy who has the incentive for 25x accounts to use the bot that will inevitably be created and "Foil Out" all his cards with low risk of loss to sell on AH.

I have a lot of fears about this game and am trying to bring to light these huge red flags I see before making any monetary commitment.

Beastmaster
05-14-2013, 08:54 PM
I agree its a concern. Someone suggested not being able to trade subscription boosters, only the cards inside them but there is still the problem of people having multiple subscriptions as the cheapest way to acquire cards..

Ebynfel
05-14-2013, 08:56 PM
There are ways that they could go about limiting it, and I believe they should. However, a person getting 10 subs for 40 a month, or a person getting 100 subs for 400 a month, still puts that much money in their pockets. Crypto makes either way you slice it, and people get boosters. Then people open or use boosters for sealed/draft. Then people need more boosters.

MugenMusou
05-14-2013, 09:01 PM
Though I do see your point, the fact currently TCG priced are set high does not mean newer games should do the same. For example, there is a TCG called Shadow Era, which definitely is not at the level of Magic, WOW TCG but decent compared to many others. You can buy a pack for $1. In fact, you could even get physical cards + complete digital card play set for <$100.

The point is yes. you may not have a resell value of card like Magic, but if the price point is made right maybe reselling is not even needed. Personally I am not a big spender, but if I can get complete play set for $100-$200 then I'll probably more likely to spend those money because every month it is essentially like I'm buying a video game.

My guess is if you make a TCG that costs as much as Magic, it just won't be as big. So they should make a game as good as magic but cheaper to play for everyone will attract overall player i.e. targeting those who don't/couldn't play magic because of the high price point.

So personally $1/pack is a sweet spot assuming they won't make ridiculously high legendary/rare ratio to compensate this i.e. we have to buy so many packs to get all the cards.

In fact, these will probably open up a huge number of people who had never played draft before.

20 ppl playing draft intensely every day with higher price value vs. 100 ppl playing draft casually with less price per person. I think the right business model in TCG right now (because of Magic) is the latter.

TheBlueMagician
05-14-2013, 09:03 PM
They could just bind your payment method to your account, even if temporarily.

If this credit card has been used on an account in the past month, it cannot be used for another account.

They don't even need to associate your account with the information, allowing them to protect your privacy should they get hacked.

Also, this method you're describing is highly inconvenient. It's feasible, a simple process to execute on, but it's a huge pain in the ass. The number of people who would consider doing this should be fairly insignificant, even if it winds up being 50% of the KS pledgers doing it, and the amount that commit to it will be even smaller.

BlindMan
05-14-2013, 09:04 PM
A lower price for cards just means that each player will be able to experience more of each set. In the end, the value of cards will still be relative to rarity and the price paid. A $1 price tag on a pack doesn't make it free, it just likely cuts the price of individual cards to 1/4 of what they would be if packs were $4. A collection however, doesn't automatically become less valuable. It's more likely to simply contain more cards.

ForgedSol
05-14-2013, 09:06 PM
lol, I didn't even think of that. While I wish PvE play could earn you PvP cards, I understand that keeping it separate is an easy way to eliminate card farming by bots. I never considered the subscription as a method for booster farming. If someone wanted to set up a secondary market store, they could sign up for 200, 300, one thousand accounts and crack packs to set up a singles store, or sell boosters for $1.50 depending on how tedious it would be to trade packs between accounts.

I have no problem at all with boosters being cheaper, and cards in general being cheaper, as long as they retain a relative value to each other through the normal supply and demand, but where I originally thought that giving everyone a booster a week was a good way to tempt everyone to draft once a week, I can see how it could potentially lead to people never buying boosters direct from the Cryptozoic store.

Stok3d
05-14-2013, 09:07 PM
They could just bind your payment method to your account, even if temporarily.

If this credit card has been used on an account in the past month, it cannot be used for another account.

They don't even need to associate your account with the information, allowing them to protect your privacy should they get hacked.

Also, this method you're describing is highly inconvenient. It's feasible, a simple process to execute on, but it's a huge pain in the ass. The number of people who would consider doing this should be fairly insignificant, even if it winds up being 50% of the KS pledgers doing it, and the amount that commit to it will be even smaller.

Trust me, if you can buy packs for essentially $1 a piece with a free tourn entry, the packs will become valued at $1 max aftermarket. Some guy will have 1000x subscriptions (if business is good) to simply AH them for $1 and then get his tourn entry for free. Don't be naive and think that it will be insignificant or work any other way.

Now that you realize this, lets brainstorm the repercussions.

Ebynfel
05-14-2013, 09:11 PM
But, ALL boosters originate from somewhere(Cryptozoic) so they are still making money on packs, regardless of how they are purchased.

ForgedSol
05-14-2013, 09:16 PM
The repercussions is that Constructed formats are cheaper. That doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. This is going to happen from launch, so whatever the market settles at with this in play will just the be regular price of things. But, the value lost is the value people thought they were getting when the kickstarted. In the long run, cheaper cards will save players money while still getting to play the game.

Soken
05-14-2013, 09:18 PM
I dont like the idea of subscriptions either.

TheBlueMagician
05-14-2013, 09:21 PM
Trust me, if you can buy packs for essentially $1 a piece with a free tourn entry, the packs will become valued at $1 max aftermarket. Some guy will have 1000x subscriptions (if business is good) to simply AH them for $1 and then get his tourn entry for free. Don't be naive and think that it will be insignificant or work any other way.

Now that you realize this, lets brainstorm the repercussions.

I've already provided one easy way to limit this potential problem.

Also, you're suggesting that lots of people will want to make multiple accounts, juggling all the information and processing, in order to save a dollar per pack? Digital purchases are driven by convenience; you remove barriers to purchasing items. Why do you think Amazon introduced 1 Click Buy? Having to create, manage, and use multiple accounts is one of the largest sets of barriers possible. I guarantee you, there will only be a few people who resort to such a strategy, especially since this game is going to draw a larger crowd because it's F2P. If it were a paid game (where you have to buy the game to even play), it might be a bit more problematic, but by being F2P it will already have a much larger audience relative to it's potential audience as a boxed game for sale.

Kalius
05-14-2013, 09:22 PM
Even with a booster glut, there will still be sought after cards that rise in price, happens in all TCGs. Let's look at MtG. for several weeks after it released, Wolfir Silverheart was in the $15 range even though you could pay $10 on a starter deck to get it.

Several sets down the road, staple cards that aren't being reprinted often will rise in price, and if certain sets ever become unavailable for purchase, they'll rise even more. I don't see people dumping tons of money on subs, if they have the money to pay for 25 subs, they're probably just going to buy the packs, get them instantly, and not have to buy more until the next set.

Soken
05-14-2013, 09:24 PM
Its extreamly easy to juggle hundred of accounts. People do that when abusing things in many games.
I wouldent mind subsciptions if the packs were not tradable and also you can only have 1 subscription per payment option through a credit/debit card or something.

hacky
05-14-2013, 09:59 PM
Its extreamly easy to juggle hundred of accounts. People do that when abusing things in many games.
I wouldent mind subsciptions if the packs were not tradable and also you can only have 1 subscription per payment option through a credit/debit card or something.

I don't know if people ever think these ideas through...

If someone seriously wants to manage 1000 subscribed accounts, I say do it. CZE gets $4k a month. Someone spends a lot of time and effort to make a small profit. Players get some cards on the cheap. That's an acceptable situation for all parties.

Competitive TCG players will burn through way more packs in a week than could possibly be generated by this subscription service.

Rapkannibale
05-14-2013, 10:10 PM
The aftermarket price of cards is determined by many more factors other than the price of the booster packs. IF the aftermarket price of booster becomes closer to a dollar AND there is enough people farming subscriptions to meet the demand of people buying boosters that still doesn't meant that the value of cards will go down proportionately.

Kalius
05-14-2013, 10:11 PM
Competitive TCG players will burn through way more packs in a week than could possibly be generated by this subscription service.

this. there are people that spend $100+ a week on MtG alone. if someone really wants a large number of cards, they aren't going to bother abusing the subs to get them, they'll just buy until they get what they want.

Soken
05-14-2013, 10:16 PM
They are not going to buy from the store though. Since you can buy packs with real money, the packs will cost 1$ or under in the auction house. The real store will serve less of a purpose.

Edit: Its so hard to think about since its all digital though. I guess i don't mind it will just mean its a cheaper game, though i do think no one will buy packs from the actual store this way, and they will make most of their money from subscriptions instead.

hacky
05-14-2013, 10:41 PM
They are not going to buy from the store though. Since you can buy packs with real money, the packs will cost 1$ or under in the auction house. The real store will serve less of a purpose.

Edit: Its so hard to think about since its all digital though. I guess i don't mind it will just mean its a cheaper game, though i do think no one will buy packs from the actual store this way, and they will make most of their money from subscriptions instead.

The exchange of cash, Platinum, and Packs goes beyond just this subscription service, though. Even if the "real store" never sells a single pack at $2, Platinum needs to enter the market somehow, both because we'll need it to buy cheaper-than-retail packs, and we'll likely need it to pay for our tournaments.

And when we buy Platinum, the money goes to CZE.

In additional, Platinum will continually leave circulation, through tournaments and pack purchases. That fact alone means that CZE will be getting additional money outside of subscriptions to maintain the necessary amount of Platinum in circulation to allow for all of these exchanges between players.


EDIT: One additional point... tournaments will likely also make Packs enter the market in exchange for the Platinum used as entry fees. So if $8 in entry fees make for 4 Packs as prizes, then we have just bought packs for $2. :)

Cornholio666
05-14-2013, 10:48 PM
So the worry is the price of cards to end the end user will drop from $2 to something between $2 and $1. I don't see a great tragedy there, or a problem for Crypto either. Subscriptions are much easier to project revenue off of then random purchases so it's probably a plus for them anyway. They still get a dollar, maybe another 10cents if it sold through their secondary market and not outside channels.

Desired cards will still have just as much value as they would without subs. When magic booster went from $3 to $4 dollars a bomb rare worth $100 didn't jump to $125, and it wouldn't have declined to $75 if the price went from $3 to $2. All this value stuff is overblown if the game is successful and I think we all think it will be.

I'm sure 2 years ago when Crypto started developing this and decided to spend probably over $2 mil to date and did their ROI projections they were not shooting for tens of thousands of users, they are shooting for HUNDREDS of thousands of users. For them success is going to be defined by a benchmark of probably 100-250,000users by the end of year 1 post release. Because return on investment takes too damn long, to spend 2-4 million and try to make it back on top of ongoing overhead with a user base of sub 50k people. Trust me if this game is the success Crypto is anticpating; our cards will be valuable even if packs were .25cents. We'll look back at all this nonsense in a year and a half and it will be the most irrelevant conversation ever.

Kitsune
05-14-2013, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I'd really suspect that Cryptozoic would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. They'd be undercutting their own booster price, significantly, and putting lots of $1 boosters on the market when they're trying to sell them for $2. Who will pay for $2 boosters when people are throwing them up on the market with $1 price tags? And while it would make sense for people who got them at $1 to try to sell them for $2 and maintain that list price, there's always that one shortsighted jerk who fanatically undercuts everyone else and ruins a good price fixing scheme, so safe bet you'll see them going for $1.10 in no time.

Rapkannibale
05-14-2013, 10:54 PM
We'll look back at all this nonsense in a year and a half and it will be the most irrelevant conversation ever.

This made me laugh for some reason. :)

Kalius
05-14-2013, 11:01 PM
This made me laugh for some reason. :)

probably because deep down, you know it's true xD

Floru
05-14-2013, 11:01 PM
I think Cryptozotic should approach this with an answer to what they see with this by the time it reaches the Subscription Stretch Goal.

The issue I am concerned about as well is someone getting a good number of subscriptions and making money off of selling it just a little higher than a dollar each.

hacky
05-14-2013, 11:02 PM
Yeah, I'd really suspect that Cryptozoic would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. They'd be undercutting their own booster price, significantly, and putting lots of $1 boosters on the market when they're trying to sell them for $2. Who will pay for $2 boosters when people are throwing them up on the market with $1 price tags? And while it would make sense for people who got them at $1 to try to sell them for $2 and maintain that list price, there's always that one shortsighted jerk who fanatically undercuts everyone else and ruins a good price fixing scheme, so safe bet you'll see them going for $1.10 in no time.

And in order to buy those packs for $1.10, we give CZE $1.10 for the Platinum currency to buy those packs.

So for that single pack, CZE has gotten $1 from the subscription, and $1.10 from the Platinum needed to buy that pack from that player. Total, $2.10.

The next question is, where does the $1.10 in Platinum go next? It's not leaving the market at $1.10 in cash...

Floru
05-14-2013, 11:11 PM
And in order to buy those packs for $1.10, we give CZE $1.10 for the Platinum currency to buy those packs.

So for that single pack, CZE has gotten $1 from the subscription, and $1.10 from the Platinum needed to buy that pack from that player. Total, $2.10.

The next question is, where does the $1.10 in Platinum go next? It's not leaving the market at $1.10 in cash...


Other 3rd-party ways of circumventing Cryptozotic from obtaining that extra $1 such as ebay. 3rd-party selling will happen.

TheBlueMagician
05-14-2013, 11:13 PM
And in order to buy those packs for $1.10, we give CZE $1.10 for the Platinum currency to buy those packs.

So for that single pack, CZE has gotten $1 from the subscription, and $1.10 from the Platinum needed to buy that pack from that player. Total, $2.10.

The next question is, where does the $1.10 in Platinum go next? It's not leaving the market at $1.10 in cash...

This is only...sort of true. I initially thought they were making more money as well, but that's only if you see each transaction as an isolated and single transaction.

To elaborate: someone subscribes and gets 4 boosters for 4 bucks. That's 2 boosters worth of money. So net is 4 bucks worth 2 boosters. If someone buys one of those boosters on the AH for $1.10, that means they are not buying a standard booster pack, which means your net is ~5.10 bucks worth 2 boosters, rather than 6 bucks for 3 boosters. You're standing at a net loss of 90 cents and one pack sold.

However, it is rather unfair to assume that every AH booster purchase replaces a standard booster purchase; people like to get discounts, so often make purchases they wouldn't otherwise make in order to take advantage of actual or perceived savings. So in some cases they have a net gain of 10 cents, and in other cases they have the net loss.

It also sort of depends on how they manage to auction house; if they take 10 - 30% of the Platinum earned through a sale as a listing/service fee, then they stand to make a bit more off of each sold item.

Shakalaka
05-14-2013, 11:17 PM
So we get boosters for $1 instead of $2 and the game gets cheaper for all of us?

HOW ON EARTH can someone complain about this?

Too much damn money?

Be HAPPY about it instead and use your cash in the real world - donate it to people in need if you have too much ...

hacky
05-14-2013, 11:21 PM
Other 3rd-party ways of circumventing Cryptozotic from obtaining that extra $1 such as ebay. 3rd-party selling will happen.

And if I had to choose between buying platinum from CZE and buying slightly more platinum from a non-reputable third party, I'm going to choose CZE, no question.

Even if the third party WAS reputable, that $1.10 in platinum still hasn't left the market. It's still in a player's account, ready to be used. If it's used for a purpose where it leaves the economy (a tournament, or in the CZE store), then it leaves the economy and needs to be replaced... back at the beginning, where CZE exchanges cash for Platinum.



This is only...sort of true. I initially thought they were making more money as well, but that's only if you see each transaction as an isolated and single transaction.

To elaborate: someone subscribes and gets 4 boosters for 4 bucks. That's 2 boosters worth of money. So net is 4 bucks worth 2 boosters. If someone buys one of those boosters on the AH for $1.10, that means they are not buying a standard booster pack, which means your net is ~5.10 bucks worth 2 boosters, rather than 6 bucks for 3 boosters. You're standing at a net loss of 90 cents and one pack sold.

However, it is rather unfair to assume that every AH booster purchase replaces a standard booster purchase; people like to get discounts, so often make purchases they wouldn't otherwise make in order to take advantage of actual or perceived savings. So in some cases they have a net gain of 10 cents, and in other cases they have the net loss.

It also sort of depends on how they manage to auction house; if they take 10 - 30% of the Platinum earned through a sale as a listing/service fee, then they stand to make a bit more off of each sold item.

Even if zero cut is made off AH transactions, Packs and Platinum all eventually leave the market. Players open packs, and players spend Platinum in places where it fully leaves the market. They will be replaced, and that is where CZE makes the money: creating the original Platinum and Packs that enter the economy in exchange for cash. The only factor is, how fast?

Arbitrage will slow it down, but only to a point, because packs and Platinum will always be consumed. And arbitrage will only work when there is demand.

TheBlueMagician
05-14-2013, 11:24 PM
So we get boosters for $1 instead of $2 and the game gets cheaper for all of us?

HOW ON EARTH can someone complain about this?

Too much damn money?

Be HAPPY about it instead and use your cash in the real world - donate it to people in need if you have too much ...

It is a troublesome idea because it could threaten the longevity of the game; if people flood the market with product, there is a decrease in demand, and people stop buying as much in response.

Needless to say, worst case scenario is the economy causes the game to collapse. Example: Diablo 3; they didn't properly manage how items were distributed, so the market was flooded and the items lost their value. As items lost value, people stopped caring about them as much, and Diablo is all about caring about the items. Same thing with a TCG and its cards.

Shakalaka
05-14-2013, 11:28 PM
Why should the market be flooded?

There is no way to create a product by simply farming it like in D3.

The Booster price is still $1 in a sub and the reseller still wants profit - so the price will be > 1$.

hacky
05-14-2013, 11:28 PM
It is a troublesome idea because it could threaten the longevity of the game; if people flood the market with product, there is a decrease in demand, and people stop buying as much in response.

Needless to say, worst case scenario is the economy causes the game to collapse. Example: Diablo 3; they didn't properly manage how items were distributed, so the market was flooded and the items lost their value. As items lost value, people stopped caring about them as much, and Diablo is all about caring about the items. Same thing with a TCG and its cards.

Diablo 3's economy doesn't really compare to a TCG economy for one simple reason: there will ALWAYS be demand for packs because packs will continually leave the economy.

For proof, look no further than the number of people who greatly value the Pro Player tier for its free draft per week. Some people just see the free product, but significant number of those backers LOVE booster draft. And booster drafts take packs out of the economy, and maintain the demand for product.

Drafters will continue to draft regardless of whether they have a full collection.

Shakalaka
05-14-2013, 11:31 PM
Get the sets out of print and make enough tourneys which include also the oop sets ... then you really get valuable cards.

TheBlueMagician
05-14-2013, 11:37 PM
Diablo 3's economy doesn't really compare to a TCG economy for one simple reason: there will ALWAYS be demand for packs because packs will continually leave the economy.

For proof, look no further than the number of people who greatly value the Pro Player tier for its free draft per week. Some people just see the free product, but significant number of those backers LOVE booster draft. And booster drafts take packs out of the economy, and maintain the demand for product.

Drafters will continue to draft regardless of whether they have a full collection.

I'm confused; I thought the theoretical issue with massive amounts of cheap boosters is that it decreases the value of every card, common to legendary. Those cards are fairly similar to D3 items, as they are obtained, stored when useless, or even possibly broken down into other things.

If cards become too common, people are not encouraged to buy booster packs, which is where a lot of the money will come from. Thus, Crypto makes less and less money.

hacky
05-14-2013, 11:43 PM
Get the sets out of print and make enough tourneys which include also the oop sets ... then you really get valuable cards.

Personally, I don't even think it's even necessary to force sets out of print. A soft "out of print" will happen on its own, where far fewer older cards will enter the market. When Set 2 comes out, both subscriptions and tournament prizes will likely shift to entirely Set 2. When Set 4 comes out, Drafts will likely stop using Sets 1-3 entirely.

It is always cheaper to buy singles than to open packs chasing a particular single, so if the market is such that not many of an old set single is available, it is entirely in CZE's favor to allow older packs to continue to be purchased. The price of the chase singles would be stable even if players are continually buying older packs to chase it, though the price of bulk rares would likely go down. But they're bulk rares for a reason.

And in the other direction, where there are more singles in the market than demand, no old set packs would be purchased anyway, and the price of chase singles would not be significantly high anyway.

hacky
05-14-2013, 11:46 PM
I'm confused; I thought the theoretical issue with massive amounts of cheap boosters is that it decreases the value of every card, common to legendary. Those cards are fairly similar to D3 items, as they are obtained, stored when useless, or even possibly broken down into other things.

If cards become too common, people are not encouraged to buy booster packs, which is where a lot of the money will come from. Thus, Crypto makes less and less money.

And then Set 2 comes out. The cycle repeats from the beginning, there are another 200+ cards to collect and chase. Repeat for Set 3 and on, every four months.

Again, this is nothing new for trading card games. Eventually, current players will have all the cards they need... but newer players will still want them.

As long as there is any demand for Hex cards at all, CZE will make money.

WSzaboPeter
05-15-2013, 12:01 AM
I'm quite sure HEX will have it's own Psychatog (uncommon selling higher than most rares), Tarmogoyf (rare selling higher than basically any mythic) and Jace, TMS (mythic so op it will get banned in most constructed formats, $100+ before banning). But that is part of being a TCG. I do hope power nine level cards will not see sunlight in HEX, and CZE is the guarantee for thatů hopefully.
Other than that I assume that aftermarket values will be $10 tops, and only very few cards will fall into the $5-10 bracket.

hacky
05-15-2013, 12:13 AM
I'm quite sure HEX will have it's own Psychatog (uncommon selling higher than most rares), Tarmogoyf (rare selling higher than basically any mythic) and Jace, TMS (mythic so op it will get banned in most constructed formats, $100+ before banning). But that is part of being a TCG. I do hope power nine level cards will not see sunlight in HEX, and CZE is the guarantee for that… hopefully.
Other than that I assume that aftermarket values will be $10 tops, and only very few cards will fall into the $5-10 bracket.

Going off WoWTCG's current singles prices, I can see $20+ chase cards. Hex may use WoWTCG's 1:11 Epic:Rare ratio, and the large size of Set 1 can contribute to needing more packs to finish playsets of cards.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 02:46 AM
What scares me the most tbh is the powercreep that happened in WoWTCG, it was obvious and silly.
If that happens here too, there will be no value nor incentive to get old cards.
Considering that the powerlevel of cards we've seen so far is very low (3/3 flyer for 4 is a legendary troop, 1/1 blank for 1, Shock instead of Lightning Bolt) doesn't reassure me!

I hope we'll see better than P9 cards, in PvE and that will be very funny (there is a Black Lotus on steroids already :p).
Play some kinda vintage 1 turn kill decks vs the AI is fun (to me at least)

~

hacky
05-15-2013, 03:03 AM
What scares me the most tbh is the powercreep that happened in WoWTCG, it was obvious and silly.
If that happens here too, there will be no value nor incentive to get old cards.

Are you serious? The current power cards in WoWTCG blocks 6-7 are utterly destroyed by the power cards in blocks 3-4. It's not power creep if the older cards are more busted than the newer cards. Quests certainly did not experience power creep over the years, either; quite the opposite, in fact.

The card pool changes, the dominant strategy shifts.

Thaysula
05-15-2013, 03:08 AM
Just to clear up something here. There is no free Torn with the sub.
You get access to a Subscriber only torn but it still costs to enter.
From the Kickstarter comments


Vincent Junemann
Does the monthly sub-only tournament have an entry fee (apart from being a sub ofc)? :)


Creator Cryptozoic Entertainment
Vincent: Yes, there will be a nominal entry fee.

Patrigan
05-15-2013, 03:10 AM
Just one point in this thread that bothers me:

People compare single prices to that of a real TCG. The hope apparently is that single prices are equal to 1/2 of a physical TCG. The problem people talk about is that this will make it 1/4 of a physical tcg.

The issue I have is that the prices won't be 1/2 to begin with, it's much closer to the actual price. Single card prices are set by the big single vendors. They buy their boosters in bulk, lowering the price a lot. I'm not talking about booster boxes here (which already shave off about 60 cent if you buy them retail) I'm talking cases. So those big vendors would already pay a price between 2 and 3 dollar per booster. Based on this they're setting their prices.

So if a physical card would be worth 10$, a card with a relatively equal value in this tcg would be around 6-7$. Assuming that this subscription problem really has that much of an effect as people make it out to be, the price will fall to around 4-5$.

Obviously, cheaper price for a highly valued card will increase demand, ultimately increasing the price again.

Also don't forget, Physical TCGs don't have a crafting system, but Hex will, creating another card sink (thus lowering supply).

I'm personally not afraid of the cards devalueing with this subscription system. It's good that CZE secures a certain steady income.

Tyranth
05-15-2013, 03:15 AM
Worry a lot less about this issue everyone. I am a professional who makes bonuses and commisions in my day job and used to buy and sell my magic cards all the time online and physical. When I was playing. No one is going to buy for $1 and resell for $1.10 even with 1000 acounts. The time and resoures required would not make anyone a profit. Third party sites draw money from it both ways coming and going. Ebay and Paypal charge fees. Credit cards and banks charge fees. The in game auction house will have fees. Selling of individual cards may make you a small profit, but only if u luck out and get a few chase cards. And right now that is assuming the initial launch will have those. Right now the only ones who care about this game are us fanatical gamers who are dying to play it. Scammers and profit hounds will come later after the game has become known and has a market that they can get a read on.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 03:47 AM
Are you serious? The current power cards in WoWTCG blocks 6-7 are utterly destroyed by the power cards in blocks 3-4. It's not power creep if the older cards are more busted than the newer cards. Quests certainly did not experience power creep over the years, either; quite the opposite, in fact.

The card pool changes, the dominant strategy shifts.

Moko vs Mazukon? :D

~

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 06:45 AM
I think Cryptozotic should approach this with an answer to what they see with this by the time it reaches the Subscription Stretch Goal.

The issue I am concerned about as well is someone getting a good number of subscriptions and making money off of selling it just a little higher than a dollar each.

Exactly. I don't want to be part of a game that literally gives HUGE financial incentives for ppl to have hundreds of accounts. Following having all these accounts will soon come bots that log in and automatically move packs to primary accounts for resale. People are in disbelief on how this can be an issue and from some of the answers I wouldn't be surprised if some of the pumpers were alt accounts of cryptozoic offiliates.

Plain and simple. If I can have 2500x Alt accounts which generate me 10,000x packs a month and provide me 2500x tourn entries and profit say $.10 to $.25 a pack, I'm making $1000-$2500 a month from the pack profits alone. The tourn entries are gravy. Please don't sit here and tell me that stores won't open over this and this sub service won't have substantial impact to pricing structures within the game.

Cryptozoic is asking for very substantial sums of money for our investment in them. I want explanations on what they plan to do. It's these "tiny details" that are going to help make or break the survivability of this game. Categorically, people come here for many reasons and no one wants to think they are going to lose $250+ on a game when I could pick up something retail for $50.

Kami
05-15-2013, 06:51 AM
You're only factoring in the seller side. There also has to be demand for the packs and such.

Even if someone generates 10k packs a month, they'd have to sell a ridiculous number of packs to break even. They'd also be competing against casual sellers/traders.

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 07:00 AM
You're only factoring in the seller side. There also has to be demand for the packs and such.

Even if someone generates 10k packs a month, they'd have to sell a ridiculous number of packs to break even. They'd also be competing against casual sellers/traders.


You are absolutely correct. The bigger the player base, the more demand for packs will arise. If there were say 100k active users ( not simply accounts :rolleyes: ) then you could foretell a demand for this service. As you are stating, I am trying to look at this from an investment standpoint. Everyone will join this game for different reasons. Coupling getting in on the ground floor of a fun MMO with potential for great future profits is a Win-Win. I'm just trying to analyze the secondary 'Win' in that formula is all and I'm sure I'm not the only one doing it.

JMFD
05-15-2013, 07:04 AM
Stok3d,

The game has been announced to the public less than a week and somehow you are already sucking the fun out of it.

If you are so worried about your financial future, maybe you shouldn't spend money on a card game and get a second job.

Lighten up man.

leahcimbulwark
05-15-2013, 07:09 AM
You have taken basic math and used it to theorize about a problem that has some potential to exist but is also a problem that can't be defined with basic math. To truly calculate the profit that multiple accounts can generate you have to know all of the other fees associated with doing this.
Your extreme example of 2500 accounts is looking at $1000 a month by your estimation. Each week you have to log into your accounts at least once to list your packs. Assuming that they all sell and it takes ~2minutes to account that will be 3.5 days of continuous account manipulation. So under your BEST case scenario you are looking at a full time job to make around $1000 a month (without factoring in outside expenses). If you have EVER tried to do something like this you would know that CC companies don't like this as it reeks of fraud, so they will clamp down and disable your card long before 2500 accounts. So now you are looking at needing multiple cards (possibly free, but likely will have some additional costs). These "tiny details" continue to add up and in the end, what looks like a lucrative proposition suddenly requires more work than is warranted from the pay off.

But by all means, continue to assume that it is as simple as obtaining a few hundred accounts and collecting a check every month.

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 07:14 AM
Stok3d,

The game has been announced to the public less than a week and somehow you are already sucking the fun out of it.

If you are so worried about your financial future, maybe you shouldn't spend money on a card game and get a second job.

Lighten up man.

Yeah, my tone is quite serious... you're right. I'm an electrical engineer irl and am weighing in on throwing down some $$$ on the game. Sorry, to be a downer and I know I look at things a little differently than others sometimes.

Nothing in this game is set in stone and if you read the details there isn't going to be a card wipe after they give us beta. Maybe some of my thoughts and concerns are unique to the developers--I dunno. I honestly want this game to succeed as it's exactly what I'm looking for. I guess I'm just trying to help it avoid some potential pitfalls is all that may not have been considered and will be irreversible if they come to fruition. I'm also trying to better understand a game that seeks initial investment without having touched it. Asking questions is all we got at this point in time :/

Anyway, I'll lay off and wait to see if any official responses come about. Maybe I'm a good candidate to call the numbers on the CEO's fingers :)

Turtlewing
05-15-2013, 07:28 AM
They are not going to buy from the store though. Since you can buy packs with real money, the packs will cost 1$ or under in the auction house. The real store will serve less of a purpose.

Edit: Its so hard to think about since its all digital though. I guess i don't mind it will just mean its a cheaper game, though i do think no one will buy packs from the actual store this way, and they will make most of their money from subscriptions instead.

The store will let you choose what set your pack comes from, with the sub you get what CZG decides to give you (most likley the newest set). If you're still trying to get a playset of some rare when a new set comes out you'll have to go to the store for more packs from the earlier set that you want.

JMFD
05-15-2013, 07:29 AM
Yeah, my tone is quite serious... you're right. I'm an electrical engineer irl and am weighing in on throwing down some $$$ on the game. Sorry, to be a downer and I know I look at things a little differently than others sometimes.

Nothing in this game is set in stone and if you read the details there isn't going to be a card wipe after they give us beta. Maybe some of my thoughts and concerns are unique to the developers--I dunno. I honestly want this game to succeed as it's exactly what I'm looking for. I guess I'm just trying to help it avoid some potential pitfalls is all that may not have been considered and will be irreversible if they come to fruition. I'm also trying to better understand a game that seeks initial investment without having touched it. Asking questions is all we got at this point in time :/

Anyway, I'll lay off and wait to see if any official responses come about. Maybe I'm a good candidate to call the numbers on the CEO's fingers :)

As kind of a different perspective on it all ...

While I have not played Hex, I have played other games designed by CZE. CZE has designed card games that have continued to do well year after year. Are all of them stellar successes? Nope, but several of them are.

I trust CZE as a company and that is mainly why they have received my pledge. Not only that but the game is already 2+ years in development with millinos of dollars already spent. That to me says they are vested in this games success.

While your concerns about economy exploitation are legit, I think your imagination might be getting a bit far ahead of itself. I spent several years botting in several games, namely Diablo 2 and WoW. While there was money to be made and exploiting to be done, I was no where near close enough to making a living of doing these things. Not to mention every so often games come down with the ban hammer forcing you to start over.

I do see a small amount of the playerbase doing these kinds of exploitations that you speak of, but I see it being about the same as someone stealing from Walmart. There is enough money in and out to where these infractions don't raise the cost of prices.

caffn8d
05-15-2013, 07:33 AM
I guess this might effect folks who want to play the trading game, but as someone far more interested in the mechanics/options of building decks and playing the actual game itself? I'm not concerned with it at all. As long as whatever model Cryptozoic uses to make money keeps the game going, I'm all in favor of making it as a cheap as possible to play. I despise the fact that several of the TCGs I grew up playing devolved into money contests.

mase1771
05-15-2013, 08:22 AM
Hey, as long as it's not like Rage of Bahamut where money guarantees you will have a constant flow of the best cards I will be happy.

Vengus
05-15-2013, 08:30 AM
The store will let you choose what set your pack comes from, with the sub you get what CZG decides to give you (most likley the newest set). If you're still trying to get a playset of some rare when a new set comes out you'll have to go to the store for more packs from the earlier set that you want.
Unless Crypto has changed it you are wrong: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23046&p=206345&viewfull=1#post206345

TheBlueMagician
05-15-2013, 08:43 AM
Honestly, until someone comes up with an argument that isn't a hyperbole, I'm kind of unconvinced this is going to be a serious problem.

So far the concern is: WHAT IF SOMEONE SUBS ONE THOUSAND TIMES?

Yes. What if indeed.



Even if 100 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. Even if 1,000 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. A small portion of players abusing a system doesn't necessarily cause the system to collapse; it's possible if left unchecked, but it's not guaranteed. And no one is going to juggle 2500 accounts; effectively no one is going to juggle 100; very few will even juggle 10. You people seem to be using easy as a synonym for "simple," when it's equal parts convenience and simplicity. And managing multiple accounts is not convenient; it might be simple, but it takes time and dedication to do that.

Effective, interesting suggestions have been made here in an attempt to theorize how CZE could check this issue should they need to. I'm not sure why we're still bringing up stupidly exaggerated examples to try to make this more of an issue.

Tathel
05-15-2013, 08:51 AM
To be honest no matter what all this means is that people who buy boosters at 2$ are getting a bit ripped off... as long as CZE is good paying it's bills on 1$ a pack there may be a little bit of a social / POV disadvantage from letting some money leak out. But at the end of the day they will always be making at least 1$ a pack and anyone else paying more is just icing on the cake.

Not a huge issue unless this isn't economically feasible, but i would say the advantages of a subscription based purchase mentality may benefit them by keeping casual players paying, while hardcore players are probably going to want a bunch of packets quickly and if they offer some sort of box deal where buying 50 packs at once is only 55$ that will end those issues too.
Or like i said just not worry about the leaking profits if it's not going to sink their ship.

There's no 'mineable' resource here like in other MMOs where a bot can spend time to make money

Kami
05-15-2013, 08:52 AM
Honestly, until someone comes up with an argument that isn't a hyperbole, I'm kind of unconvinced this is going to be a serious problem.

So far the concern is: WHAT IF SOMEONE SUBS ONE THOUSAND TIMES?

Yes. What if indeed.



Even if 100 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. Even if 1,000 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. A small portion of players abusing a system doesn't necessarily cause the system to collapse; it's possible if left unchecked, but it's not guaranteed. And no one is going to juggle 2500 accounts; effectively no one is going to juggle 100; very few will even juggle 10. You people seem to be using easy as a synonym for "simple," when it's equal parts convenience and simplicity. And managing multiple accounts is not convenient; it might be simple, but it takes time and dedication to do that.

Effective, interesting suggestions have been made here in an attempt to theorize how CZE could check this issue should they need to. I'm not sure why we're still bringing up stupidly exaggerated examples to try to make this more of an issue.

I'd assume the market would just end up being self-regulating. Players could black-list the seller.

The less he sells, the more he loses.

CZE being administrators also have steps they can take. If they take a cut of each transaction, it makes it even worse for the seller.

There are many, many options beyond just the difficulty of even getting it started in the first place.

While it's something to keep an eye on, I don't see this being a significant problem. For all you know, CZE could increase subscription costs.

Deadpool319
05-15-2013, 08:58 AM
Honestly, until someone comes up with an argument that isn't a hyperbole, I'm kind of unconvinced this is going to be a serious problem.

So far the concern is: WHAT IF SOMEONE SUBS ONE THOUSAND TIMES?

Yes. What if indeed.



Even if 100 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. Even if 1,000 people sub 10 times, it won't be a problem. A small portion of players abusing a system doesn't necessarily cause the system to collapse; it's possible if left unchecked, but it's not guaranteed. And no one is going to juggle 2500 accounts; effectively no one is going to juggle 100; very few will even juggle 10. You people seem to be using easy as a synonym for "simple," when it's equal parts convenience and simplicity. And managing multiple accounts is not convenient; it might be simple, but it takes time and dedication to do that.

Effective, interesting suggestions have been made here in an attempt to theorize how CZE could check this issue should they need to. I'm not sure why we're still bringing up stupidly exaggerated examples to try to make this more of an issue.

Could not agree more. At the end of the day people can try to abuse the system and CZE will react appropriately. The only concerns I've seen are people worried about the after market value of cards (that I will remind you, do not physically exist and are more akin to the chess pieces in Microsoft Chess than cardboard MTG cards) rather than any impact on the game or company.

Try not to take this personally, but don't be offended if neither I, nor most of the people here, nor CZE put much concern in someone's ability to make a living exploiting the in-game auction house or that they can't have a binder full of 200 dollar cards. This is a game intended to be played and enjoyed (and make CZE some big bucks) and should never have money be the barrier to entry that most traditionally manufactured TCGs have in wildly overpriced cards.

Malama
05-15-2013, 08:59 AM
An easy solution would be that to recive your weekly booster you have to prov that you are human. That way it would be "imposible" to have 1000 acounts.

TheBlueMagician
05-15-2013, 09:09 AM
An easy solution would be that to recive your weekly booster you have to prov that you are human. That way it would be "imposible" to have 1000 acounts.

Well, the idea is that they'd be auctioning those boosters off on the AH, so they'd naturally log in and prove they're human. On all 1,000 accounts. That's one of the arguments being made.

Also, I think a lot of this is going to be stymied by the fact it is unlikely you will be able to withdraw money from the system. Let's assume there's someone dedicated, obsessed, and warped enough to run 2,500 accounts: they're still selling them for fake money so they can continue circulating the fake money in the system by buying more things. All this does is create problems in the in-game economy.

And the whole scenario makes no sense; if you had 2,500 accounts getting 4 boosters a week, or 100 accounts, or even 10 accounts, why would you ever buy anything? What purpose would your Platinum have? Are you going to play "who can accrue the biggest pile of fake money by spending ludicrous amounts of real money?"

Malama
05-15-2013, 09:15 AM
Ummm, so how long does it take to log into an account, prove that you are human, send the booster to your main account an then put them on ah for selling? I would guess about 10min per account. That is 10.000 minutes with 1000 accounts. That is about 7 days of pure time.
So can someone tell me who would do this??

Kami
05-15-2013, 09:16 AM
All they have to do is enforce Authenticator to log-in. No bot will be able to get in quickly.

Humans will take a decent amount of time as well per login.

Tyrfang
05-15-2013, 09:17 AM
10 minutes for a dollar isn't really enticing to me, and probably not to many people here, but this is a global auction house and a global economy. There might be someone in China or Vietnam willing to work this sort of sweatshop...

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 09:18 AM
That's 1 cent per minute of work (according to selling booster for $1.10).
Nice business plan.

(Not considering the cost of internet, computer etc...)

~

Hibbert
05-15-2013, 09:59 AM
AFAIK, in MTGO a similar situation occurs, but from the prize winnings. People who win prizes sell some of their boosters for tickets, so they can enter more events. It ends up that buying boosters from WotC is usually a bad decision, since you could just buy tickets to exchange for boosters.

In Hex, primal packs will change things up a bit in terms of the secondary market for boosters. Given the choice of a chance at a primal for 2 dollars from the CZE store vs. a regular pack at some amount between 1.01-1.99 on the secondary market, some people might go for the chance at the primal. In either case(assuming the vast majority of the secondary market is handled by "platinum", a currency that CZE sells), CZE is going to be making money.

Turtlewing
05-15-2013, 10:01 AM
Unless Crypto has changed it you are wrong: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23046&p=206345&viewfull=1#post206345

Alright then, the market value for packs will fluctuate between $1.00 and $2.00 depending on demand.

In times of high demand (new set released, major build up to a major draft tournament, etc) price will approach $2.00 per pack as the $1.00 packs can only be generated weekly. When demand is low (approaching the release of a new set, etc.) price will drop towards $1.00


I'm not seeing a problem.

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 10:12 AM
There's no 'mineable' resource here like in other MMOs where a bot can spend time to make money

Packs for $1 and turning cards into foils via XP and in effect increasing their value.

There are two ways that I can instantly think of.

jai151
05-15-2013, 10:37 AM
Packs for $1 and turning cards into foils via XP and in effect increasing their value.

There are two ways that I can instantly think of.

The reason foils are valuable in other games is because of their rarity. There is no rarity to getting the foil versions here, just a time investment.

As such, I don't expect the foil unlock to command much of a premium if at all. It will be much like the old WoW call of "Join our guild, we have a tabard!"

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 10:42 AM
The reason foils are valuable in other games is because of their rarity. There is no rarity to getting the foil versions here, just a time investment.


"Time is money my friend."

If you're wanting 4x sets of foils, paying say double the price of a non-foil version to save one from a significant time sink will appeal to many. We have no idea how long it takes to level one of those cards to foil. If it were say 24x hours of game play, imagine how long it would take to do 4x full complete sets. There will be a market I'm sure for foils.

nearlysober
05-15-2013, 10:44 AM
No one will do this. Well someone may try but the bottom line is so rediculously low and the risk so high that they'll regret it.

Even if you factor out the amount of time investment: (log-in, redeem pack, send to primary account... do this X times. On primary account, find market price, post X auctions, wait... wait... wait... wait... for sales)

Maybe it packs sell for $1.90 and you are fast (waiting on sales aside) and can redeem, send, list everything in 3 min per boosters. After CZE takes the AH cut (lets say 3%), you're looking at $0.87 profit for 3 min work, or $17.40 per hour.

If the price remained solid and no one undercut you and you sold 100% if your inventory every week... someone would do this for $17.40 per hour.

But you will get undercut. And the margin is what will kill this plan. In the best case scenario above, you need to sell 54% of your inventory... just to break even. You don't even start making money til you've hit that threshold.

And if the price is lower, lets say even just $1.45 on the AH and you take home about $0.42 per sale... you need to sell 71% of your auctions per week before you start to profit.

And... perhaps most importantly of all, we're not even sure you can cash out!

ForgedSol
05-15-2013, 10:46 AM
I still don't see the problem here. It's not like this system is being introduced years down the line, and the worth of everyone's card is going to be devalued from whatever the market stabilized at. There are no cards yet. There is no market. This is being set up from the get go, so card prices are going to stabilize with this system taken into account, and that's just what it will be.

Soken
05-15-2013, 10:46 AM
10 minutes per account, how slow would you have to be for it to be that. Assuming verification will be similar to diablo 3, it only takes 1 minute to log in and sell something on the AH : /
I Did not think about that. Primal packs might help the economy stay in check a bit more

Turtlewing
05-15-2013, 10:47 AM
The reason foils are valuable in other games is because of their rarity. There is no rarity to getting the foil versions here, just a time investment.

As such, I don't expect the foil unlock to command much of a premium if at all. It will be much like the old WoW call of "Join our guild, we have a tabard!"

This is an interesting point. Conventional wisdom is that the cards with XP and a list of achievements will be more valuable, but it's possible that cards with no play history ("mint condition" if you will) will be rarer and therefore of more value to collectors.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 10:50 AM
This is an interesting point. Conventional wisdom is that the cards with XP and a list of achievements will be more valuable, but it's possible that cards with no play history ("mint condition" if you will) will be rarer and therefore of more value to collectors.

In Urban Rivals,the cards level up as you play and you only play (seriously) with leveled cards.
The level 1 (mint cards) are the most sought after ones.

~

Turtlewing
05-15-2013, 10:58 AM
In Urban Rivals,the cards level up as you play and you only play (seriously) with leveled cards.
The level 1 (mint cards) are the most sought after ones.

~

PoxNora also had leveled runes being used primarily in play and unleveled runes are a lot less valuable than ones with full XP (though you can reset the XP expenditures in PoxNora).

Personally I'd bet there'll be a mix. Foil/extended art version will be sought after for "complete sets" so the cards that are good and see a lot of play will be more valuable in "mint condition" (since most people play them and eventually end up with a foil/extended art version), but lousy or exceedingly common cards will be more valuable in leveled form (because not a lot of people bother leveling them).

And achievements will add/subtract value based on what they represent ("used in a world championship final" would be more valuable than "lost 100 games")

Deadpool319
05-15-2013, 11:09 AM
PoxNora also had leveled runes being used primarily in play and unleveled runes are a lot less valuable than ones with full XP (though you can reset the XP expenditures in PoxNora).

Personally I'd bet there'll be a mix. Foil/extended art version will be sought after for "complete sets" so the cards that are good and see a lot of play will be more valuable in "mint condition" (since most people play them and eventually end up with a foil/extended art version), but lousy or exceedingly common cards will be more valuable in leveled form (because not a lot of people bother leveling them).

And achievements will add/subtract value based on what they represent ("used in a world championship final" would be more valuable than "lost 100 games")

It would also be easy for the digital only medium to not allow the transference of achievements even though the card itself can be traded. Not saying this would be a super popular option, because some people would prefer to buy the full art cards instead of play enough to earn them, but it is possible that the achievements are both card and account specific.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 11:18 AM
It would also be easy for the digital only medium to not allow the transference of achievements even though the card itself can be traded. Not saying this would be a super popular option, because some people would prefer to buy the full art cards instead of play enough to earn them, but it is possible that the achievements are both card and account specific.

Each card is unique and achievements/exp stay on the card when sold/traded.
We don't know if they can be resetted to blank tho :) This would make sure the EA/Foil ones are worth more.

~

papalorax
05-15-2013, 11:47 AM
i don't think being able to buy a box/case of printed cards has ruined the physical card market or the physical booster market.

what's the difference?

Tathel
05-15-2013, 11:48 AM
"Time is money my friend."

If you're wanting 4x sets of foils, paying say double the price of a non-foil version to save one from a significant time sink will appeal to many. We have no idea how long it takes to level one of those cards to foil. If it were say 24x hours of game play, imagine how long it would take to do 4x full complete sets. There will be a market I'm sure for foils.

Yeah... but owning the non-leveled card doesn't get you that extra value... now you are assuming all the farm accounts are also using bots to level cards in game before selling them, and those are individual cards not boosters so they are now also opening the boosters. Also foil card is perception based value so they will never be worth more than what luxury demand dictates... I would say level foil values is an entirely independent issue from subscription based booster packs.

And one that has little effect on the quality of the game as a whole since CZE never had profit potential from this unless they are selling already foil packs or something

Daer
05-15-2013, 12:09 PM
Via todays update:


There have been a lot of questions about the subscription feature. When naming it, we didn't really consider the dissonance that would occur with HEX, a free to play game, and the term 'subscription.' It's opt-in after all, providing each player a few packs each month at a discount and some cool bonus stuff like the monthly exclusive VIP tournament and the deck "goldfish" tool. It's all upside and none of it is needed to play. So, we're calling it the VIP Program to make sure nobody gets confused.

We've also received a lot of questions from backers worried that players will game the system, opening multiple accounts to stack VIP Program booster packs. This program is intended to be one-per-player as a cool way to let our community access some packs at a discount and get some sweet bonus stuff. But, we do understand that there will always be a small percentage of players who are always looking to game the system. We're aware of this and have powerful analytical tools to determine when this is occurring and will handle those instances accordingly.

Tathel
05-15-2013, 12:19 PM
</thread>

JMFD
05-15-2013, 12:19 PM
And on the seventh day god created logic and killed this discussion.

Xenavire
05-15-2013, 12:24 PM
Very nicely done. And I love the dev cards, real riot to read.

I am surprised how much they listen to fans. Just amazing, gives me a lot more faith in them than I had already.

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 12:43 PM
Via todays update:
Thanks Daer! May I ask where you see the daily updates? I just spent a few mins looking around and am not having much luck.



And on the seventh day god created logic and killed this discussion.
Before attempting to belittle me, I am one of the most logical people you will ever come across. Admit it or not, my forethought on bringing this potential loophole to light BEFORE any in game economic effect have taken place may have been a good thing.

Seems like they're taking putting steps in place on these booster subs and hopefully putting something in place that will detect bots that try to simply level up their cards. And yes, I do like the quick feedback devs have provided.

JMFD
05-15-2013, 12:44 PM
It was merely a joke, with no intention of belittling. So much serious on the forum today.

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 12:46 PM
It was merely a joke, with no intention of belittling. So much serious on the forum today.

<3

Daer
05-15-2013, 12:47 PM
There have been 7 updates so far, updates are at: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts

Floru
05-15-2013, 12:52 PM
This update satisfies me. Alright, time to get +2 Pro and +1 Grand King. :cool:

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 12:56 PM
This update satisfies me. Alright, time to get +2 Pro and +1 Grand King. :cool:

That exactly what I'm thinking of doing. I just sent a help desk ticket in on how to get it properly applied and awaiting response before committing.


@Daer: Thank you

JMFD
05-15-2013, 12:59 PM
Kyle has mentioned that customer service will make sure everyone gets handled at time of release. Pretty swell of them :D

Floru
05-15-2013, 12:59 PM
That exactly what I'm thinking of doing. I just sent a help desk ticket in on how to get it properly applied and awaiting response before committing.

Oh, I am thinking of getting another 3 accounts. That way, if I can snag some of my good friends to play with, they'll have their own account. I believe for you, if you want to merge, the answer was that they can, just bug them about it when Beta comes out.