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View Full Version : Suggestion: Let Weekly Free Draft Rollover to Next Week if Unused



GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 09:36 AM
All these threads keep popping up where people claim that tiers with free weekly drafts are just going to rare draft, or want the ability to just open and keep all the packs, etc. Here is the easy solution to all this:

Let any account that has access to a free weekly draft roll it over into the next week if they have not used it, so that they have two available for the next week. This would disincentivize people rare drafting just to make sure they use their free draft in each week (not that I, personally, see this as a huge problem) and give a cushion for people who may not have the time in any given week to complete a draft.

Madican
05-20-2013, 09:37 AM
I'd agree with this, but only if the maximum it could stack to was two.

Kami
05-20-2013, 09:39 AM
I would only support this if 'free' players are forced to complete their drafts to retain the cards they chose. (Otherwise, they keep their free draft for the week.)

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 09:41 AM
How about this: each unused free draft converts into a ticket at the end of the week.

...I don't really think pro-player tier needs a buff.

Barov
05-20-2013, 09:42 AM
I would only support this if 'free' players are forced to complete their drafts to retain the cards they chose. (Otherwise, they keep their free draft for the week.)

Forcing to complete their draft means they can just surrender the first game and they are done, so that really doesn't help.

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 09:44 AM
Well I am totally for it some weeks I don't have time to play a few hours my draft , or I am traveling around to world and have no internet for 2 weeks or a decent computer to use. But I would make the maximum stack 4 or 5 so that people can acutally go 3 or 4 weeks on vacation and then come back and use them up. More stacks would maybe a bad idea.

So pretty please make it happen an give us the possibility to stack up the weekly free week drafts from pro player a bit. Thank you.

Mugaaz
05-20-2013, 09:46 AM
No, just no. Its good enough as is.

nearlysober
05-20-2013, 09:47 AM
If someone wants to rare draft, drop and take a hit against their ranking, then they're hurting themselves.

You get a free win to advance towards better prizes.
They get a hit on their ranking as there is no anonymous play.

And if it's really a problem, they could track how often a player does it and punish people who are exceeding a threshold.

No need to roll over free entries. The purpose of them is to encourage a lively draft scene, not for people to stockpile when they want to redeem cards.

BossHoss
05-20-2013, 09:48 AM
As a multi pro luckily I am against stacking for the business model growth as pro tier is already an insane value... I am more than happy with what they have offered IMHO

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Rare drafting isn't against the rules in any way.

Why would forfeiting be illegal?

LexC
05-20-2013, 09:55 AM
I'm for it, maximum stack of 3 - 5

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 09:58 AM
All these threads keep popping up where people claim that tiers with free weekly drafts are just going to rare draft, or want the ability to just open and keep all the packs, etc. Here is the easy solution to all this:

Let any account that has access to a free weekly draft roll it over into the next week if they have not used it, so that they have two available for the next week. This would disincentivize people rare drafting just to make sure they use their free draft in each week (not that I, personally, see this as a huge problem) and give a cushion for people who may not have the time in any given week to complete a draft.

Unfortunately your purposed solution does nothing to remedy your purposed problem.

The most likely cause of rare-drafting and dropping would be players who have more free tournaments than they can use. Allowing them to rollover the excess just kicks the can down the road at best, and makes the problem worse otherwise (imagine a player who skips a week due to inability to log in, then rare-draft and drops the rolled over tournaments the next week)

Most likely the pro player perks will pose little to no long term problem even without a disincentive to drooping out of the draft. The total number of free draft entries will be small in comparison to the number of regular draft entries. And the majority of free draft will be used by people intending to play (and win) the draft.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 09:58 AM
I vote against. It is a loyalty reward (just like the daily spectral lotus).

If you dont have the time to redeem, too bad, you miss a week. If it happens often, you shouldn't have made that kind of commitment, and you shouldn't blame others for your lack of foresight.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 10:02 AM
I vote against also. What i see happening is people hording drafts, waiting until a new set comes out then using them all. Then just doing the drafts, and dropping out to get the cards they want fast and trying to flip them for a profit while most are still opening a few packs at a time.

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 10:04 AM
Ashenor, I hadn't considered that specific situation. Good point.

Really, the most I think Cryptozoic should give to players who do not use their draft benefit is 1 of the most recent set's packs + a ticket.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 10:07 AM
I believe the following to be a better solution:

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23656



I am seeing concerns popping up in threads about:


Lacking Time to Utilize "Free Weekly Draft" Bonus in Tiers that provide it weekly like Grand King
People worried about integrity of drafts from Bonus Tier drafter just being Rare Poachers and leaving


I propose this suggestion which could be a win-win for everyone. As Grand King is now the hot ticket item and some are on the fence with making the dive as they're unsure if they can have the time to use the weekly draft, why not just make two buttons pop up weekly for it? Either one chosen "consumes" the weekly benefit:


Use Weekly Draft
Unwrap 3x Boosters


As a Tiered supporter with the weekly draft perk, I know I would appreciate having this choice and I do not see any downside to this what-so-ever.

Daer
05-20-2013, 10:08 AM
Use it or lose it.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 10:08 AM
Ashenor, I hadn't considered that specific situation. Good point.

Really, the most I think Cryptozoic should give to players who do not use their draft benefit is 1 of the most recent set's packs + a ticket.

I don't think they should go even that far.

Personally this all sounds like someone just now realized they misvalued the Pro Player tier because they forgot about the diminished returns from stacking a weekly use it or loose it perk, and wants the perks changed to cover their poor planning.

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 10:11 AM
They won't be able to horde it we did make a sensible suggestion like maximum 3 to 5 to be stackable, the problem exist that people have no internet sometimes due whatever reason for more then a week.

If you have to always play your draft each week it will end up like a job and people will quit it as it takes out the fun when you can't take a break. I would sell my account as soon it would feel like no fun anymore and feel like a task you are forced to do, i did quit most my mmorpg's only do that. The devs should be aware of that weariness and try to prevent that.

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 10:13 AM
They won't be able to horde it we did make a sensible suggestion like maximum 3 to 5 to be stackable, the problem exist that people have no internet sometimes due whatever reason for more then a week.

If you have to always play your draft each week it will end up like a job and people will quit it as it takes out the fun when you can't take a break. I would sell my account as soon it would feel like no fun anymore and feel like a task you are forced to do, i did quit most my mmorpg's only do that. The devs should be aware of that weariness and try to prevent that.

If they choose to keep separate aiccounts for their benefits, they could have many times more than 5x or whatever the arbitrary limit is set to. If they're only rare drafting, it's probably better that way, as it won't impact their main account's rating.

Also, some people find enjoyment out of doing things for "profit" and min/maxing.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 10:14 AM
If anyone that has more then one free draft complains of time, release one of your draft perks so someone else waiting with time can have one.

I have no issues with rare drafters, just makes it that much easier to win, i will take the bye thanks.

Daer
05-20-2013, 10:15 AM
So if you are tired of drafting take a couple weeks off.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 10:15 AM
I just repeat no here. It is simply a bad idea. If they did this, Spectral Lotuses would be next - what happens when someone leaves for a year and comes back with 55+ drafts and 350+ spectral lotuses?

Just no, never going to happen. Not even with limits. It is simply a bad idea, and people knew what they were getting ahead of time. It STILL sold out first.

Really, this needs to stop.

jai151
05-20-2013, 10:16 AM
No. The perk is such a ridiculous value as it is, there is no reason to stack. If you don't have time to run your draft in a week, you don't run your draft.

And this is coming from someone who will have 2x a week (and likely many weeks where I will only be able to run one or none at all)

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 10:18 AM
If you always base the system on the people who could abuse it or how it could be abused then the normal users also will not like the system as it's not fun to use.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 10:19 AM
I just repeat no here. It is simply a bad idea. If they did this, Spectral Lotuses would be next - what happens when someone leaves for a year and comes back with 55+ drafts and 350+ spectral lotuses?

Just no, never going to happen. Not even with limits. It is simply a bad idea, and people knew what they were getting ahead of time. It STILL sold out first.

Really, this needs to stop.

100% agree & ppl would stack for the next set / expansion.

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 10:21 AM
If you always base the system on the people who could abuse it or how it could be abused then the normal users also will not like the system as it's not fun to use.

If you never consider how it could be abused, then the abusers will ruin the game for normal players or force all players to adopt their strategies to remain viable/competitive.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 10:23 AM
Also this mostly effect's a tier that is long sold out already.

They will not be making any changes to something that is sold out with people waiting for someone to drop one.

shiningideal
05-20-2013, 10:27 AM
If you have to always play your draft each week it will end up like a job and people will quit it as it takes out the fun when you can't take a break. I would sell my account as soon it would feel like no fun anymore and feel like a task you are forced to do, i did quit most my mmorpg's only do that. The devs should be aware of that weariness and try to prevent that.

Not playing their draft each week doesn't mean they never get it again. And for people consistently worried about having the time, having a larger number waiting on them is just going to apply the same pressure. Its something you get, not something you must use. If you get a coupon for a free something do you always use them in life? If you go to an all you can eat restaurant do you feel that if you stop before physical pain you've not properly used the service?

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 10:28 AM
@Tyrfang that's true i didn't say they shouldn't consider it but they have to balance it and that's the hardest part. In this case i see with a stack of 3 or 4 no real harmful abusive use.

Ex given i did play a game were you had to be online all the time a lot of people did break the rules and shared their account, if people can't use their weekly drafts their likely to the same here and give their account to a friend so that he can draft for them. So technicly you create a new problem by beeing to strict.

Fireblast
05-20-2013, 10:29 AM
The goal of free weekly for life is to incentive players to play on a regular basis, same thing with Spectral Lotus.

~

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 10:30 AM
They already got what they agreed to. No need to change the terms of the deal - they already got even more free stuff AFTER the initial deal, with more to come.

Drop it.

Tyrfang
05-20-2013, 10:31 AM
I just don't see the reason to implement this.

You have to be online "all the time" to use a draft a week?

It just alienates anyone who didn't pledge multiple PP rewards (vast majority) in favor of those who pledged PP multiple times (an extreme minority).

Boojum
05-20-2013, 11:00 AM
Agreed. Use it or lose it. As a Pro backer myself, I'm in shock that people are even suggesting eliminating the one marginal downside of what was pretty clearly the best value tier.

And as has been discussed in a couple threads, rare-drafting is a non-issue.

Even if you miss a few weeks here and there throughout the year, you'll get more than your money's worth.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 11:04 AM
This kinda makes the bonus too good :/ - this is coming from someone with the bonus...

MugenMusou
05-20-2013, 11:20 AM
It may be counter intuitive but perhaps such act will make overall quality of draft better. Let me give an example. If one does not have 2-3 hours to play draft, but only thing would happen is you lose the free draft that week, then there will be players just start the draft get cards and perhaps lose quickly, and just collect cards. But if you can stuck up then no benefit of doing such.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 11:26 AM
It may be counter intuitive but perhaps such act will make overall quality of draft better. Let me give an example. If one does not have 2-3 hours to play draft, but only thing would happen is you lose the free draft that week, then there will be players just start the draft get cards and perhaps lose quickly, and just collect cards. But if you can stuck up then no benefit of doing such.

No, allowing free drafts to pile up will encourage rare-drafit and drop behavior not discourage it.

Imagine coming back to Hex after a couple month break and seeing 9 free drafts and a new set released since you last played.

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 11:31 AM
Also pro tier is one free booster draft a week, we don't know how pve will be and how good the 100% more loot from dungeon crawler will be but it can be used way more often so i don't feel that pro tier is that over powered.

We are only guessing that pvp is more important it might end up that 90% of the player base is pve and those cards are more searched in the Action House in the end.

MugenMusou
05-20-2013, 11:35 AM
No, allowing free drafts to pile up will encourage rare-drafit and drop behavior not discourage it.

Imagine coming back to Hex after a couple month break and seeing 9 free drafts and a new set released since you last played.

There should be a limit of how much to stack up. Anyone can always abuse system if so desires but technically speaking, you paid for 1 free draft/week privilege so personally I think it is fair that you get that. Ones who wants to truly play draft would play draft if he has stacks of 9 drafts, but even for those if have no time to play particular week and only thing happen to it is lose it, then I think we will see more of those people start draft get card and run.

Ones who are hunting for rares but nothing else to begin with, no matter what they will still do the same i.e. you not affecting that group of people. Having said that at this early stage of game, I doubt too many people with this type of mind set.

Deathfog
05-20-2013, 11:37 AM
Free drafts should be use it or lose it, same thing with the Spectral Lotus Garden. You are getting one free so long as you actively participate in the community, you can just draft and throw your first match which just helps other people win the big prize if you are crushed for time. This isn't like HoN or LoL where one out of 10 people dropping the game ruins it for everyone else, this just gives one lucky player a pass.

This is coming from someone who paid for 2 drafts a week, I expect to be an active participant to justify getting some a major freebie.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 11:39 AM
There should be a limit of how much to stack up.

That's what they have now. The limit is 1.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 11:41 AM
If someone isn't wanting to use drafts anyway, they are just going to drop and run regardless.

It wont matter how much they have, or haven't stacked. You are arguing for a point that will only further the issue rather than resolve it.

What it will promote is 'active lazyness'. People will let them build up until they need to use them, burn them in one go, and then do it all over again. These people will probably only play 2-3 days out of every month, and only play when a new set comes etc. In other words, you would be rewarding people for NOT playing the game, in the long run.

The reward is for loyal players - simple as that. If they want to rare draft, let them - it is part of their reward.

Thanisse
05-20-2013, 11:55 AM
honestly ... after getting 3 boosters / week with minimal work for free , for life ... you shouldn't really be asking for more :P
just sayin'

I for one would be more than ok losing a draft once a year because I had to do X and Y that week .
it's a free thing afterall .

Lidralyn
05-20-2013, 12:07 PM
I have a GK and a Pro tier and I do not believe they would let us stack our drafts for the simple reason that most every player once they get a play set of the cards they want for a set could then just let the drafts stack up till next set. Then when a new set launches they could have 20+ drafts sitting there on day 1 and Crypto would not want that as those same people are most likely the ones who will buy more packs.

This way the players have to actually use their drafts and then trade the cards and get involved with the community to get platinum and then buy packs when the new set came out...which will actually make Crypto money because those packs had to be bought by someone in order to be sold.

MugenMusou
05-20-2013, 12:07 PM
If someone isn't wanting to use drafts anyway, they are just going to drop and run regardless.

It wont matter how much they have, or haven't stacked. You are arguing for a point that will only further the issue rather than resolve it.

Completely agree with the point you said above except our conclusion is different. I don't know why many of you think stacking up people are bad (rare collection) people. There are people who don't get to play every week yet still loves the game. One may not be able to play 3-4 hours every week, but may be able to play full days on one of the weekend. I think it just difference lifestyle.

Having said all this, believe or not I really don't care either way. My thought process happened to be favoring the "stacking" as opener suggested.

One argument is if you subscribe to a magazine for a year, whether you are at home and have chance to read it or not, you get a full year worth of magazines. However, one can argue service like Netflix. If you forgot to return/watch movie a few days, you don't get back those numbers (i.e. as if you watch movie everyday).

So it depends on how people looks at Free draft service as. Is it like Magazine subscription for life time? Or Is it like Netflix?

By the way, does anyone know what is the official wording on this? Is it already confirmed that you lose if you don't play?

MugenMusou
05-20-2013, 12:07 PM
I have a GK and a Pro tier and I do not believe they would let us stack our drafts for the simple reason that most every player once they get a play set of the cards they want for a set could then just let the drafts stack up till next set. Then when a new set launches they could have 20+ drafts sitting there on day 1 and Crypto would not want that as those same people are most likely the ones who will buy more packs.

This way the players have to actually use their drafts and then trade the cards and get involved with the community to get platinum and then buy packs when the new set came out...which will actually make Crypto money because those packs had to be bought by someone in order to be sold.

Huh. That's actually fair and logical reasoning. Only if they could somehow limit a draft to the particular set you got or lose it when new set comes.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 12:30 PM
I just think that they need to encourage those players to A) play regularly. B) pay for more boosters when they need them. And C) be a part of the community.

If people can stack and go lazy mode, they will be ignoring all three of those points. They wont have incentive to play, they can stack and get boosters when they want them, so they don't really need to buy, and they won't have any need to be part of the community (and many reasons to ignore the game altogether.)

I just can't see anything positive coming from stacking - it just lets players behave badly, or at least be inactive, and get rewarded for it. It would be like WoW paying you not to play - you can get on with life and rake in the rewards.

This might be an extreme example, but a loyalty reward is only meant to be given to layal people - stores dont hand out freebies for people who shop once a month/year (in fact usually points expire in those sorts of time-frames).

And it wont have any effect on how drafting is played. People will always do what they feel like (rare drafting for example) and people WILL quit, ranking or not. Nothing will ever fix this issue except account banning for dropping out (which is the worst idea ever, a powercut in your city could get you permanently banned. Not a nice way to treat players either.)

So short and sweet, this is one of those things that can and will be abused repeatedly by certain people. It is better to just leave it as it was advertised - they already agreed to the terms and conditions - and they even have another 17-18 days to back out.

Vibraxus
05-20-2013, 12:30 PM
I believe the following to be a better solution:

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23656

I offer a different idea. So lets say I lose my free draft this week, for whatever reason. Put them 3 boosters into a separate "Draft booster pack" section. I can pull those 3 to use in a draft tourny at any time in the future, but I have to pay the entry fee. Think of it as a "Well I lost my entrance fee last week, but I can still use those packs to enter another tourny for just the entry fee"

Now those 3 packs sitting in my "draft pack" section, I cant open or trade, I can only use them in future drafts that I still have to pay the entry fee for. This is a win for Crypto, and a a nominal fee to the user for not using their "free" draft for the week.

Honestly, Id pay the buck is I missed a previous weeks draft for any reason.

theghost32
05-20-2013, 12:33 PM
they wont do that cause then you could horde packs and disrupt the economy

Willzyx
05-20-2013, 12:35 PM
I asked about this directly. The answer was "use it or lose it".

Thread over. =)

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 12:37 PM
Who did you ask ? :)

Vibraxus
05-20-2013, 12:43 PM
they wont do that cause then you could horde packs and disrupt the economy

There is no horde because you cant trade/sell or do ANYTHING with the "draft pack" queue yu have other than use them in a draft. Plus you gotta spend the 1$ entry into the draft.

So let me give an example....:

I dont use my free draft for 3 weeks, so I get 9 packs added to my "draft pack" queue. Those packs sit there, I cant open them, I cant trade them, I cant sell them. The ONLY way I can use them is as part of my entry into a draft tourny, but I still pay the 1$. I can do that 3 times since I have 9 stored up packs.

There is no economy killer, no draft killer, and an extra buck to Crypto if I wanna use my "lost" weekly draft.

Win-win MHO.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 12:46 PM
I offer a different idea. So lets say I lose my free draft this week, for whatever reason. Put them 3 boosters into a separate "Draft booster pack" section. I can pull those 3 to use in a draft tourny at any time in the future, but I have to pay the entry fee. Think of it as a "Well I lost my entrance fee last week, but I can still use those packs to enter another tourny for just the entry fee"

Now those 3 packs sitting in my "draft pack" section, I cant open or trade, I can only use them in future drafts that I still have to pay the entry fee for. This is a win for Crypto, and a a nominal fee to the user for not using their "free" draft for the week.

Honestly, Id pay the buck is I missed a previous weeks draft for any reason.

Here's a question:
What's in this suggestion for CZE?

Sure you get a more valubel perk, but they're on the hook for more free packs, which will presubaly reduce their revenue stream, and in order to get the honor of giving you free packs they have to create a new feature (the draft only pack storage locker).

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 12:48 PM
There is no economy killer, no draft killer, and an extra buck to Crypto if I wanna use my "lost" weekly draft.

Win-win MHO.

CZE get's $1.00 in exchange for $6.00 worth of product. That's not as good a deal as letting the perk expire so you'll need to buy in for $7.00 for each 2nd+ draft you do in a week.

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 12:53 PM
People can't have it both ways. You can't complain that the free draft encourages rare drafting because people need to jump in and get it done before it expires, and then say that allowing them to stack a couple of free drafts so they can legitimately draft when they have the time encourages rare drafting because they will horde them. Whether someone plays 1 draft a week, or zero drafts one week and two the next is totally immaterial to the "community." The same number of games will be played. If anything, having them stack a limited number of times promotes drafting, because people are more likely to use it and not throw away the chance at winning more packs.

Let's not kid ourselves anyway--the kickstarter rewards are ridiculous at all tiers. The first standard block is going to be flooded with cards no matter what. The small number of people with a free draft per week is a drop in the bucket to the economy when you consider the thousands that will have free VIP access for months, 100s of free boosters at launch, etc.

And let's not already turn this into a battle between the "hardcores" and the casuals. I am an adult with a family and a professional occupation. There are going to be times that I cannot utilize my draft just because of time constraints. If it expires at the end of the week, don't complain about me rare drafting if that is what it comes down to. I see literally zero harm in letting your one free draft stack to two and then resetting if you don't use it in two weeks.

It's a QOL change for people who dropped the majority of the money in kickstarting this game, but are going to be in the very small minority of the player base.

Willzyx
05-20-2013, 01:02 PM
Who did you ask ? :)

I messaged the Crypto kickstarter account.

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 01:04 PM
CZE get's $1.00 in exchange for $6.00 worth of product. That's not as good a deal as letting the perk expire so you'll need to buy in for $7.00 for each 2nd+ draft you do in a week.

You are presuming his free draft would expire, but then he would draft anyway, which makes no sense. The entire point is to give people who don't have the time in any given week to draft later.

If he doesn't get to use his draft in any given week, he isn't drafting at all, and CZE gets nothing regardless. CZE isn't losing $6 worth of product because (1) he wasn't buying it anyway, (2) it's all digital so they weren't printing it, and (3) CZE already got his money for it from the kickstarter.

If they let it roll over but make the user pay the entry fee ticket price, CZE is giving him the same 3 packs he would have had (which costs them effectively $0 from a printing standpoint), but forcing him to cough up the $1. They get $1 whereas before they got nothing, which is a price margin of infinity.

It fights this mysterious scourge of rare drafting that some people are all up in arms about, gives CZE a small revenue stream, and improves QOL for the small group of people that funded the majority of the kickstarter.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 01:11 PM
It's a QOL change for people who dropped the majority of the money in kickstarting this game, but are going to be in the very small minority of the player base.

Personally, as someone who's been trying to warn people that the free draft per week isn't the same thing as free cards every week, and that the value is directly proportionate to how likely you expect you will be to consume those drafts every week (and mostly getting "nuh uh it's totally free cards every week" in reply), I can't really bring myself to respond more sympathetically than "let me dig out the worlds smallest fiddle for ya' " to anyone who says they can't actually consume a free draft every single week, but pledged a tier that has one.

The answer that the free drafts are "use it or loose it" has been in the big FAQ thread since before I joined the forum. And even with that limitation it's still one of the most sought after perks.

As to rare-drafting and dropping. I expect it to be a non-issue either way. However allowing the entries to accumulate will encourage binges of rare-drafting whenever you accumulate the cap or, a new set is released. Which is more likely to be a problem than if you have to use the draft every week or loose it.

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 01:14 PM
You can absolutely have it both ways because the changes will affect different people differently. For people that want the Pro Tier exclusively for free cards and don't care about drafting, banking drafts makes it easier for them. They save time by only having to do it twice a week (and I assume can even sign up for two drafts at the same time). For some people with bad time management, they'll figure they can miss one week, then realize they don't have time week two and figure if they can't do both drafts, might as well just rare draft both. You can go on and on with reasons why this idea will just shift where the rare drafting comes from within the community, and all Cryptozoic gets is people losing an incentive to come back every week for a free draft, which is an opportunity for some people to come up with reasons to draft again.

You're trying to solve a problem that isn't really a problem with a method that will cost Cryptozoic to lose potential revenue for extremely little gain.

The solution to keep people playing and not rare drafting is to make a fun game in general, and don't release a set that has a boring draft environment. As long as they do that and if they can get the community to grow, there will be no problem.

Vibraxus
05-20-2013, 01:14 PM
CZE get's $1.00 in exchange for $6.00 worth of product. That's not as good a deal as letting the perk expire so you'll need to buy in for $7.00 for each 2nd+ draft you do in a week.

That is called a compromise. CZE gave the stackers something crazy, so why not make them pay if they dont use it? Why not make it instead of a use it or lose it, but a use it or pay 1$ to use it. The stacked "draft packs" can never be used for anything but entry to another draft....


In other words, we dont stack free drafts, we just stack unused drafted packs. You wanna access them, you pay the the 1$ entry into a draft tourny and use your draft stash.

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 01:16 PM
@Willzyx okay that sounds official enough but i am surprised at such a lame reaction as the developper said they would make the game for the players and a lot players asked today about it and they don't even epxlain themself why. I can only hope they adress it with more detail in daily update. :)

ShaolinRaven
05-20-2013, 01:19 PM
I vote no for stacking as well. It should be a use if for that week or don't, but there should be no benefit for not using it that week because it opens up more options for abuse. Also if people are getting behind or not drafting their free weeks having it roll over and build up doesn't help anyway because then you put pressure on them to play catch up.

kuvasza
05-20-2013, 01:19 PM
I'd support a kind of rollover minutes option, similar to phone plans. You lose them after X weeks. You have a max # you can collect. That's just being friendly to people who have some weeks/weekends where they can't devote time to a game. This last weekend, for example, was 24+ hours on a deploy call. I could troll forums in between executing jobs, but there's no way I could actually do a booster draft. Then again, if that seems excessive (we get another free draft, the next week, already), no problem. The pot is already well sweetened.

Daer
05-20-2013, 01:19 PM
@Willzyx okay that sounds official enough but i am surprised at such a lame reaction as the developper said they would make the game for the players and a lot players asked today about it and they don't even epxlain themself why. I can only hope they adress it with more detail in daily update. :)


Far more players were against it then for it.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 01:20 PM
If he doesn't get to use his draft in any given week, he isn't drafting at all, and CZE gets nothing regardless. CZE isn't losing $6 worth of product because (1) he wasn't buying it anyway, (2) it's all digital so they weren't printing it, and (3) CZE already got his money for it from the kickstarter.


Those point are all incorrect:
1. We're discussing a hypothetical player who wants to do lots of drafts fairly infrequently. At a minimum 2 drafts every 2 weeks. If he wants do do 2 drafts every two weeks and his free draft doesn't accumulate he has to pay full price for the second 3packs and an entry fee. From here of CZE were to allow the free tournament to accumulate they loose the $7.00/week he would have payed for that second draft entry (they loose the opportunity to sell 3 packs and are on the kook for his entry fee which gets converted in to prizes for the draft).

2. Cost of production is not the issue here. We're talking about opportunity cost in the form of lost revenue.

3. Yes, they got money up front at the cost of an ongoing income stream. However this is only worth their while so long as they don't take that trade too many times. Hence why it's probably a bad idea to make the free draft entries accumulate.

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:21 PM
That is called a compromise. CZE gave the stackers something crazy, so why not make them pay if they dont use it? Why not make it instead of a use it or lose it, but a use it or pay 1$ to use it. The stacked "draft packs" can never be used for anything but entry to another draft....


In other words, we dont stack free drafts, we just stack unused drafted packs. You wanna access them, you pay the the 1$ entry into a draft tourny and use your draft stash.

There's still the question of "What's in it for them?"

You get $6 worth of product for $1. They sell you $6 worth of product for $1, as opposed to the use it or lose it situation where they're not lessening demand for the cards. It doesn't cost them anything to produce the cards, but it sure does cost them something to have them in existence.

So the only way for them to come out ahead in your plan is to account lock all cards you get from your draft.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 01:24 PM
That is called a compromise. CZE gave the stackers something crazy, so why not make them pay if they dont use it? Why not make it instead of a use it or lose it, but a use it or pay 1$ to use it. The stacked "draft packs" can never be used for anything but entry to another draft....


In other words, we dont stack free drafts, we just stack unused drafted packs. You wanna access them, you pay the the 1$ entry into a draft tourny and use your draft stash.

I get the concept, I just don't see why CZE should bother crating debugging and testing that system when the upshot to them is less opportunity to sell packs. And it's not like they haven't been clear about the use it or loose it nature of the free draft from the beginning.

Ditsch
05-20-2013, 01:28 PM
@Daer I don't feel like that, in the kickstarter comments more people were for it, and also here it did feel more it was like half and half.

Vibraxus
05-20-2013, 01:34 PM
There's still the question of "What's in it for them?"

You get $6 worth of product for $1. They sell you $6 worth of product for $1, as opposed to the use it or lose it situation where they're not lessening demand for the cards. It doesn't cost them anything to produce the cards, but it sure does cost them something to have them in existence.

So the only way for them to come out ahead in your plan is to account lock all cards you get from your draft.

That $6 worth of product is useless unless they spend the $! to access it. Keep in mind this is the same 6 bucks the pro player would have if they used it....and that 1 entry fee they lose for that week. So now the same packs that would have been used anyway, still get used...now those packs earn a buck. How is that bad?

Or....
The folks who have multiple drafts just lose it....period? That is a loss to CZE since they already factored in the 3 packs...why not put them lost packs to use and give 1 buck?

Again Id spend a buck to use my lost draft packs in another week. Plus them packs CAN NOT be used in ANY WAY other than entering a draft that I spend a buck to play. Win-Win.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 01:36 PM
That $6 worth of product is useless unless they spend the $! to access it. Keep in mind this is the same 6 bucks the pro player would have if they used it....and that 1 entry fee they lose for that week. So now the same packs that would have been used anyway, still get used...now those packs earn a buck. How is that bad?

Or....
The folks who have multiple drafts just lose it....period? That is a loss to CZE since they already factored in the 3 packs...why not put them lost packs to use and give 1 buck?

Again Id spend a buck to use my lost draft packs in another week. Plus them packs CAN NOT be used in ANY WAY other than entering a draft that I spend a buck to play. Win-Win.

How is 3 less packs in circulation a loss? It leaves a hole there, which will be filled by someone else buying 3 packs - it is a win for them. I do not get your logic on this point, I really don't.

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:38 PM
That $6 worth of product is useless unless they spend the $! to access it. Keep in mind this is the same 6 bucks the pro player would have if they used it....and that 1 entry fee they lose for that week. So now the same packs that would have been used anyway, still get used...now those packs earn a buck. How is that bad?

Or....
The folks who have multiple drafts just lose it....period? That is a loss to CZE since they already factored in the 3 packs...why not put them lost packs to use and give 1 buck?

Again Id spend a buck to use my lost draft packs in another week. Plus them packs CAN NOT be used in ANY WAY other than entering a draft that I spend a buck to play. Win-Win.

It's not Win-Win. It's Win-Lose-$1-less-than-had-you-redeemed-it-in-time-but-$5-more-than-use-it-or-lose-it.

Jugan
05-20-2013, 01:39 PM
I would only support this if 'free' players are forced to complete their drafts to retain the cards they chose. (Otherwise, they keep their free draft for the week.)

Okay, they just go AFK during deck construction and lose round 1 due to time. So not only does the draft take longer, but it hurts them in 0 ways.

You people getting mad that people will raredraft and drop are laughable.

Vibraxus
05-20-2013, 01:39 PM
I get the concept, I just don't see why CZE should bother crating debugging and testing that system when the upshot to them is less opportunity to sell packs. And it's not like they haven't been clear about the use it or loose it nature of the free draft from the beginning.

Im sorry if I missed a use it or lose it post by CZE. If thats the case...well then done deal. :) Im ok with it...hell I dont have multiple drafts anyway. Im just trying to offer ideas.

Now as for debugging creating a new system....It is just a tag on the booster pack(s) given in the form I mentioned.

Anyway, there will be pros and cons to any idea......

Boojum
05-20-2013, 01:39 PM
The Pro tier pricing surely takes into account that people will forget or miss a week here and there, and even so it is a great deal and obviously the best overall perceived value. Lobbying for CZE to put development time into mitigating the one minor caveat of the tier so you can be assured of never, ever missing out on a single one of "your" 156 packs/year is just naked greed and entitlement. Especially since literally every other $250+ tier is more in need of tweaks and improvements to make them more attractive.

Would you go to a buffet and take home boxes of food for later? Would you call Netflix and tell them that you were on vacation last week and didn't stream anything, so they should add a week to your subscription?

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 01:42 PM
No, allowing free drafts to pile up will encourage rare-drafit and drop behavior not discourage it.

How does letting them all expire at the end of the week not do the same thing, since that is what you just argued? Letting them stack a limited number of times does not encourage rare drafting at all.

cheese
05-20-2013, 01:45 PM
The Pro tier pricing surely takes into account that people will forget or miss a week here and there, and even so it is a great deal and obviously the best overall perceived value. Lobbying for CZE to put development time into mitigating the one minor caveat of the tier so you can be assured of never, ever missing out on a single one of "your" 156 packs/year is just naked greed and entitlement. Especially since literally every other $250+ tier is more in need of tweaks and improvements to make them more attractive.

Would you go to a buffet and take home boxes of food for later? Would you call Netflix and tell them that you were on vacation last week and didn't stream anything, so they should add a week to your subscription?

Right.

It's ridiculous. And no more what happens, people with raredraft. It happens in Magic, it happens in MTGO, it happens in WoW, happens in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's a part of the game, and it sucks sometimes, but it's going to happen. If they add a no forfeit, people will just DC for 3 minutes and take up some time for someone else.

Just think, if someone enters, drafts, and drops, that's one less person you're competing with for first place.

Jugan
05-20-2013, 01:46 PM
How does letting them all expire at the end of the week not do the same thing, since that is what you just argued? Letting them stack a limited number of times does not encourage rare drafting at all.

You can't reason with these people, Finch. My bet is that someone will give them a free win down the line and they will absolutely love it, but still bitch about it on the forums. Honestly, these people are the people who will probably lose round 1 and get 0 prizes unless they get paired with an AFK.

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 01:48 PM
How is 3 less packs in circulation a loss? It leaves a hole there, which will be filled by someone else buying 3 packs - it is a win for them. I do not get your logic on this point, I really don't.

It leaves no hole. This is a digital-only product. The supply is infinite.

His proposal gives CZE the opportunity to make $1 from a situation in which they would otherwise make $0. You are assuming someone who loses out on a free draft on week X is going to draft twice on week X+1 and pay for the second draft in cash, to make up for the lost one. If that person does not pay for a second draft, but would have paid $1 to use one of his past "free" drafts (the "free" drafts we paid $250 for) that rolled over, CZE realizes a profit from nowhere.

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:50 PM
It leaves no hole. This is a digital-only product. The supply is infinite.

The supply is infinite. The demand is not.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 01:55 PM
One small thing: If you're a multi-pledger from pro player, dragon lord, or grand king (assuming they sell out) and are worried about having the time to draft each week, consider giving up your spot. The availability of these tiers could draw in additional players which will help the longevity of the game. Or even if you're a single pledger worried about this, you could always go for 2x king level for additional rewards or some other combination.

Edit: I'm not looking for a spot btw, happy at where I am.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 01:55 PM
Maybe not a literal hole, but it is less supply in the community than the devs expected, and with high demand, they earn more from the situation.

Is it hard to understand that this benifits them?

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 01:56 PM
How does letting them all expire at the end of the week not do the same thing, since that is what you just argued? Letting them stack a limited number of times does not encourage rare drafting at all.

It will mean that people who didn't log in for a week (say vacation with no internet) can still redeem the free draft that they otherwise would have lost. That's +1 chance to rare-draft and drop for that example.

Similarly players who take a 3 month hiatus and come back when the new set is released will have accumulated (approximately) 12 drafts and have every incentive to liquidate some of them by rare-drafting as all the cards they'll get are from the new set. vs coming back to 1 free draft if they do not accumulate.

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 01:57 PM
It leaves no hole. This is a digital-only product. The supply is infinite.

His proposal gives CZE the opportunity to make $1 from a situation in which they would otherwise make $0. You are assuming someone who loses out on a free draft on week X is going to draft twice on week X+1 and pay for the second draft in cash, to make up for the lost one. If that person does not pay for a second draft, but would have paid $1 to use one of his past "free" drafts (the "free" drafts we paid $250 for) that rolled over, CZE realizes a profit from nowhere.

No. What you're over-looking with the free draft is that every week, each person that has a free draft will be tempted to "why not play one more?" Every week, x% of the time someone who likes to draft will be tempted to throw in another $7. The people who are happy playing will be tempted to play more each and every week. By allowing it to stack, CZE not only loses that opportunity that week, but the week where they get two (or the second for a dollar), that will be enough to satisfy a percentage of those people, and they won't need to play any more.

1 free draft a week vs 2 free drafts every two weeks will net CZE more money because of this temptation, as well as help to retain players by placing them in a more consistent play schedule. You're looking at this by zooming in on only the small percentage of "problem cases" and not looking at how this will affect their revenue loss from the greater majority of people with this perk.

[Note: This isn't to say that everyone will stack every two weeks because of this implementation, but I'd bet if you factor in the Population of Those Who'd be Tempted Each Week x $7 vs the Population of Those Who Don't have Time Some Weeks x $1 (or actually $0.50 since it'd be every other week) the math is in favor of keeping it at one draft a week. And again, it's an answer to a problem that isn't a problem.]

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 02:04 PM
The Pro tier pricing surely takes into account that people will forget or miss a week here and there, and even so it is a great deal and obviously the best overall perceived value. Lobbying for CZE to put development time into mitigating the one minor caveat of the tier so you can be assured of never, ever missing out on a single one of "your" 156 packs/year is just naked greed and entitlement. Especially since literally every other $250+ tier is more in need of tweaks and improvements to make them more attractive.

Would you go to a buffet and take home boxes of food for later? Would you call Netflix and tell them that you were on vacation last week and didn't stream anything, so they should add a week to your subscription?

"Greed?" " Entitlement?" I just gave a company $250 on faith alone. I put my faith in CZE to make a fun product and rolled the dice at what is, compared to other game kickstarters, a lot of money. So, yeah, those are "my" drafts. I paid for them.

Your analogies are terrible. I have already paid for my "free" draft before not being able to use it. If I pre-pay for the buffet, but can't make it, I shouldn't be allowed to ask for a rain check? If I am going to be gone for a month, I'm not allowed to call up Netflix and cancel; I am forced to pay for it even though I can't use it? Sound logic.

jai151
05-20-2013, 02:07 PM
"Greed?" " Entitlement?" I just gave a company $250 on faith alone. I put my faith in CZE to make a fun product and rolled the dice at what is, compared to other game kickstarters, a lot of money. So, yeah, those are "my" drafts. I paid for them.

Your analogies are terrible. I have already paid for my "free" draft before not being able to use it. If I pre-pay for the buffet, but can't make it, I shouldn't be allowed to ask for a rain check? If I am going to be gone for a month, I'm not allowed to call up Netflix and cancel; I am forced to pay for it even though I can't use it? Sound logic.

You pre-bought a lifetime subscription to Netflix at a massive discount. If you're going to be gone for a month, should you be able to demand a refund of $9.99?

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 02:08 PM
"Greed?" " Entitlement?" I just gave a company $250 on faith alone. I put my faith in CZE to make a fun product and rolled the dice at what is, compared to other game kickstarters, a lot of money. So, yeah, those are "my" drafts. I paid for them.

Your analogies are terrible. I have already paid for my "free" draft before not being able to use it. If I pre-pay for the buffet, but can't make it, I shouldn't be allowed to ask for a rain check? If I am going to be gone for a month, I'm not allowed to call up Netflix and cancel; I am forced to pay for it even though I can't use it? Sound logic.

hold on... I know i put hat fiddle here somewhere... unless the vacuum go it...

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 02:13 PM
No. What you're over-loking with the free draft is that every week, each person that has a free draft will be tempted to "why not play one more?" Every week, x% of the time someone who likes to draft will be tempted to throw in another $7. The people who are happy playing will be tempted to play more each and every week. By allowing it to stack, CZE not only loses that opportunity that week, but the week where they get two (or the second for a dollar), that will be enough to satisfy a percentage of those people, and they won't need to play any more.

1 free draft a week vs 2 free drafts every two weeks will net CZE more money because of this temptation, as well as help to retain players by placing them in a more consistent play schedule. You're looking at this by zooming in on only the small percentage of "problem cases" and not looking at how this will affect their revenue loss from the greater majority of people with this perk.

[Note: This isn't to say that everyone will stack every two weeks because of this implementation, but I'd bet if you factor in the Population of Those Who'd be Tempted Each Week x $7 vs the Population of Those Who Don't have Time Some Weeks x $1 (or actually $0.50 since it'd be every other week) the math is in favor of keeping it at one draft a week. And again, it's an answer to a problem that isn't a problem.]

The number of people with this perk is increasingly approaching a lower and lower percentage of future HEX players, so the idea that this creates some huge economic problem is just false. The lost opportunity cost to CZE is negligible and is dwarfed by the kickstarter funds those tiers generated, word-of-mouth advertising, hype machine, etc.

More importantly, these are people (myself included) who are already blindly dropping $250+ on an alpha product they have only read about and seen a couple videos. Are we really likely to only play the game when it is "free?" Somehow, people have latched onto this idea that the people with pro-player tiers are just "greedy," when, in reality, they are the most generous--they have fueled the vast majority of the kickstarter.

It makes no difference to me, personally. I couldn't care either way. If I can't use my draft to its fullest, I will rare draft. People will complain about it. I offered a simple and in no way burdensome or unfair solution. People complained about it.

We have people going ape-shit over the "rare drafting problem" that doesn't even exist yet, but they also don't want to fix it. Mostly, it just sounds like people who are mad they did not or cannot get pro-tier now.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 02:15 PM
"Greed?" " Entitlement?" I just gave a company $250 on faith alone. I put my faith in CZE to make a fun product and rolled the dice at what is, compared to other game kickstarters, a lot of money. So, yeah, those are "my" drafts. I paid for them.

Your analogies are terrible. I have already paid for my "free" draft before not being able to use it. If I pre-pay for the buffet, but can't make it, I shouldn't be allowed to ask for a rain check? If I am going to be gone for a month, I'm not allowed to call up Netflix and cancel; I am forced to pay for it even though I can't use it? Sound logic.

You paid for 1 free draft per week, if you can't use it for whatever reason, that's not CZE's problem. When you get back, your 1 free draft per week will be waiting for you. There's a reason why cell phone carriers specifically advertise "roll-over minutes" as a bonus to their plan, because this is an incredible bonus that you shouldn't assume is included. Same applies here.

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 02:18 PM
More importantly, these are people (myself included) who are already blindly dropping $250+ on an alpha product they have only read about and seen a couple videos. Are we really likely to only play the game when it is "free?" Somehow, people have latched onto this idea that the people with pro-player tiers are just "greedy," when, in reality, they are the most generous--they have fueled the vast majority of the kickstarter.

You're asking for CZE to make what is widely regarded as the most valuable single reward more valuable. And your reasoning is that "it would benefit me and any ham it would to to CZG will be negligible".

EntropyBall
05-20-2013, 02:18 PM
I think letting this stack to 2 would be cool, but its a pretty awesome perk already. Letting it stack to high numbers seems like it would be counterproductive for CZE.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 02:21 PM
And no, I wouldn't call it negligible. There will be a good portion of people who miss their weekly free draft, this will benefit CZE, and it should. The value of this bonus is amazing, shown by how quickly it sold out, and the value of it should not be increased.

Hadin
05-20-2013, 02:22 PM
The benefits to any given tier are to make it desirable enough to convince people that their $250 pledge is worth it. Pro Player sold out very quickly, and people are F5 spamming trying to be the lucky person to have one open up. There is no incentive for them to improve a tier that is already popular enough to sell x1000.

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 02:27 PM
And no, I wouldn't call it negligible. There will be a good portion of people who miss their weekly free draft, this will benefit CZE, and it should. The value of this bonus is amazing, shown by how quickly it sold out, and the value of it should not be increased.

You're missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with the value of the reward. This is in response to the people who claim pro-tier is going to cause tons of rare drafting.

Boojum
05-20-2013, 02:30 PM
"Greed?" " Entitlement?" I just gave a company $250 on faith alone. I put my faith in CZE to make a fun product and rolled the dice at what is, compared to other game kickstarters, a lot of money. So, yeah, those are "my" drafts. I paid for them.

Your analogies are terrible. I have already paid for my "free" draft before not being able to use it. If I pre-pay for the buffet, but can't make it, I shouldn't be allowed to ask for a rain check? If I am going to be gone for a month, I'm not allowed to call up Netflix and cancel; I am forced to pay for it even though I can't use it? Sound logic.

That's practically the definition of entitlement. Because CZE gave you a really good deal, you think you're entitled to even more than they offered.

No, they're not your drafts. You pre-paid for one draft per calendar week in which you have the time and inclination to use it. Not one draft per calendar week come hell or high water. This was the deal that CZE was offering, as they clearly explained. You (and I, and 998 others) thought it was more than good enough to be worth $250 -- if you no longer think so, then you still have a few weeks to back out on your pledge, and someone else will be happy to snag the spot. The deal they actually offered was fantastic without wheedling ways to make it even better.

The point of the analogies, which seems to have gone over your head, is that not every purchase is made on a purely a la carte, item-by-item basis. You are not purchasing X widgets for Y dollars. You are purchasing an indefinite number of widgets limited by time, space, inclination, or other factors for Y dollars. Again, if that deal isn't good enough for you anymore, there are plenty of people who would be happy to have it.

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 02:36 PM
The number of people with this perk is increasingly approaching a lower and lower percentage of future HEX players, so the idea that this creates some huge economic problem is just false. The lost opportunity cost to CZE is negligible and is dwarfed by the kickstarter funds those tiers generated, word-of-mouth advertising, hype machine, etc.

More importantly, these are people (myself included) who are already blindly dropping $250+ on an alpha product they have only read about and seen a couple videos. Are we really likely to only play the game when it is "free?" Somehow, people have latched onto this idea that the people with pro-player tiers are just "greedy," when, in reality, they are the most generous--they have fueled the vast majority of the kickstarter.

It makes no difference to me, personally. I couldn't care either way. If I can't use my draft to its fullest, I will rare draft. People will complain about it. I offered a simple and in no way burdensome or unfair solution. People complained about it.

We have people going ape-shit over the "rare drafting problem" that doesn't even exist yet, but they also don't want to fix it. Mostly, it just sounds like people who are mad they did not or cannot get pro-tier now.

I didn't say huge economic problem. You were the one saying that CZE is gaining revenue by adopting the $1 suggestion. I'm pointing out that if you look at the larger whole of those tempted to play more each week vs those needing an emergency save and will be happy to pay $1, CZE is in fact losing money, and so that point you were making is wrong.

I do agree with you that the point of the free drafts vs the total population will get increasingly smaller and smaller, but that is also not in your favor, because that only further supports that there is no problem to solve.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 02:37 PM
You're missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with the value of the reward. This is in response to the people who claim pro-tier is going to cause tons of rare drafting.

My bad. As for the rare drafters, I just don't think there will be that many of them who drop out of the playing their 1-3 free games. And I won't mind the ones who do, because there are prizes if you win :)

Turtlewing
05-20-2013, 02:41 PM
You're missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with the value of the reward. This is in response to the people who claim pro-tier is going to cause tons of rare drafting.

I personally don't think rare-drafting will be a problem that must be solved (the problem will largely solve itself via dilution).

Further allowing the drafts to accumulate does not disincentives rare-drafting and dropping.

So in my opinion, this is the wrong solution to a non-problem.

GatticusFinch
05-20-2013, 02:42 PM
That's practically the definition of entitlement. Because CZE gave you a really good deal, you think you're entitled to even more than they offered.

No, they're not your drafts. You pre-paid for one draft per calendar week in which you have the time and inclination to use it. Not one draft per calendar week come hell or high water. This was the deal that CZE was offering, as they clearly explained. You (and I, and 998 others) thought it was more than good enough to be worth $250 -- if you no longer think so, then you still have a few weeks to back out on your pledge, and someone else will be happy to snag the spot. The deal they actually offered was fantastic without wheedling ways to make it even better.

The point of the analogies, which seems to have gone over your head, is that not every purchase is made on a purely a la carte, item-by-item basis. You are not purchasing X widgets for Y dollars. You are purchasing an indefinite number of widgets limited by time, space, inclination, or other factors for Y dollars. Again, if that deal isn't good enough for you anymore, there are plenty of people who would be happy to have it.

It's clear you did not even read my original post.

This has nothing to do with it not being a "good value." I don't care if they implement it or not. This was my suggestion to fix the "problem" that people think pro-tier will cause rare drafting by people who think they are forced to use their draft before it expires. I have zero problem with rare drafting and consider it to be part of the game just like very other TCG (hell, in WoWTCG, you had people rare drafting cards worth thousands of dollars thanks to the in game rewards). You are literally arguing against me for no reason, because I simply do not care--I did not think rare drafting was a problem to begin with, but merely offered a reasonable solution.

Apparently, we have people who are just mad at pro-tier existing or them not being in it (most likely the latter), because they (1) want to complain it causes rare drafting, and (2) want to complain that the solutions to limit rare drafting are "too good."

MasterPlan
05-20-2013, 03:39 PM
I think the difference is if someone went Pro player simply for the potential to draft 3 packs a week just for the cards, or someone who wants to actually play in the tournaments and increase their rank. With the potential of going to weekly/monthly and larger tournaments.

I say use it or loose it, if they want to rare draft then forfeit every week and take the rating hit, I would be much more interested in the rewards for competing in the higher level tournaments.

Boojum
05-20-2013, 03:51 PM
It's clear you did not even read my original post.

This has nothing to do with it not being a "good value." I don't care if they implement it or not. This was my suggestion to fix the "problem" that people think pro-tier will cause rare drafting by people who think they are forced to use their draft before it expires. I have zero problem with rare drafting and consider it to be part of the game just like very other TCG (hell, in WoWTCG, you had people rare drafting cards worth thousands of dollars thanks to the in game rewards). You are literally arguing against me for no reason, because I simply do not care--I did not think rare drafting was a problem to begin with, but merely offered a reasonable solution.

Apparently, we have people who are just mad at pro-tier existing or them not being in it (most likely the latter), because they (1) want to complain it causes rare drafting, and (2) want to complain that the solutions to limit rare drafting are "too good."


So... you're arguing in favor of something that you "simply don't care" about, to fix a situation that you don't think is actually a problem?

I wasn't addressing your original post (though I did read it), and don't care about your motivations behind the suggestion. I argued in general against the whole misguided premise of the thread (that Pro Player should be made even better), and didn't address your posts or you personally until you replied to me.

In any case, I completely agree that rare-drafting is a total non-issue, and said as much in the thread a couple days ago (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23253&page=2)where we came to that consensus. Where we disagree is the idea that a "reasonable solution" to a situation we both agree not to be a problem would be to make the best, most popular tier even better than it already was.

stiii
05-20-2013, 04:01 PM
It's clear you did not even read my original post.

This has nothing to do with it not being a "good value." I don't care if they implement it or not. This was my suggestion to fix the "problem" that people think pro-tier will cause rare drafting by people who think they are forced to use their draft before it expires. I have zero problem with rare drafting and consider it to be part of the game just like very other TCG (hell, in WoWTCG, you had people rare drafting cards worth thousands of dollars thanks to the in game rewards). You are literally arguing against me for no reason, because I simply do not care--I did not think rare drafting was a problem to begin with, but merely offered a reasonable solution.

Apparently, we have people who are just mad at pro-tier existing or them not being in it (most likely the latter), because they (1) want to complain it causes rare drafting, and (2) want to complain that the solutions to limit rare drafting are "too good."

Does I don't care about something have a very different meaning in other parts of the world? You might not care a lot about this but then you should say that......

And you don't have people drafting cards worth thousands of dollars in wowtcg, the loot cards are removed.

You are assuming that the people disagreeing with you are just mad they didn't get in on the pro tier which is only one step above just saying anyone who disagrees with you is trolling.

jai151
05-20-2013, 04:06 PM
It's clear you did not even read my original post.

This has nothing to do with it not being a "good value." I don't care if they implement it or not. This was my suggestion to fix the "problem" that people think pro-tier will cause rare drafting by people who think they are forced to use their draft before it expires. I have zero problem with rare drafting and consider it to be part of the game just like very other TCG (hell, in WoWTCG, you had people rare drafting cards worth thousands of dollars thanks to the in game rewards). You are literally arguing against me for no reason, because I simply do not care--I did not think rare drafting was a problem to begin with, but merely offered a reasonable solution.

Apparently, we have people who are just mad at pro-tier existing or them not being in it (most likely the latter), because they (1) want to complain it causes rare drafting, and (2) want to complain that the solutions to limit rare drafting are "too good."

This completely ignores the fact that most of the people telling you how bad your solution is are pro (or multi pro)

djlowballer
05-20-2013, 06:40 PM
To be clear, I am a pro player and I would prefer to see the problem with drafting solved this way:

1. Drafting queue called "Pro Draft".
2. Queue Re-drafts rares based on placement in the tourney.
3. Pro tier drafts can only be redeemed in the "Pro Draft" queue.
4. Pro tier drafts can now be rolled over.

The spirit of the pro tier isn't "45 free cards". The tier is meant to take some financial strain off those drafting competitively. The implementation of the above prevents rare drafting because you can no longer cherry pick and surrender at round one and expect to take home some cards. Players are encouraged to build competitive decks and go for the victory which is professional behavior. Re-drafting rares is usually criticized for being unfair to newer players or less skilled players so it would be limited to the "Pro Tier" where people are either playing free or freely choosing to participate based on their skill. Drafts can be rolled over because they don't give an advantage in constructed unless the "pro" player has the skill to place. Scrubs or quitters still get their "free cards" by quitting but it will be limited to their uncommons and below.

jai151
05-20-2013, 06:44 PM
To be clear, I am a pro player and I would prefer to see the problem with drafting solved this way:

1. Drafting queue called "Pro Draft".
2. Queue Re-drafts rares based on placement in the tourney.
3. Pro tier drafts can only be redeemed in the "Pro Draft" queue.
4. Pro tier drafts can now be rolled over.

The spirit of the pro tier isn't "45 free cards". The tier is meant to take some financial strain off those drafting competitively. The implementation of the above prevents rare drafting because you can no longer cherry pick and surrender at round one and expect to take home some cards. Players are encouraged to build competitive decks and go for the victory which is professional behavior. Re-drafting rares is usually criticized for being unfair to newer players or less skilled players so it would be limited to the "Pro Tier" where people are either playing free or freely choosing to participate based on their skill. Drafts can be rolled over because they don't give an advantage in constructed unless the "pro" player has the skill to place. Scrubs or quitters still get their "free cards" by quitting but it will be limited to their uncommons and below.

That seems unnecessarily complex and solves a non-problem (Rare drafters) by introducing a problem (people saving drafts for new releases).

Plus, you used the word "scrubs" without meaning the wonderful TV show, so I instantly must disagree with anything you say on principle alone.

ShaolinRaven
05-20-2013, 06:53 PM
To be clear, I am a pro player and I would prefer to see the problem with drafting solved this way:

1. Drafting queue called "Pro Draft".
2. Queue Re-drafts rares based on placement in the tourney.
3. Pro tier drafts can only be redeemed in the "Pro Draft" queue.
4. Pro tier drafts can now be rolled over.

The spirit of the pro tier isn't "45 free cards". The tier is meant to take some financial strain off those drafting competitively. The implementation of the above prevents rare drafting because you can no longer cherry pick and surrender at round one and expect to take home some cards. Players are encouraged to build competitive decks and go for the victory which is professional behavior. Re-drafting rares is usually criticized for being unfair to newer players or less skilled players so it would be limited to the "Pro Tier" where people are either playing free or freely choosing to participate based on their skill. Drafts can be rolled over because they don't give an advantage in constructed unless the "pro" player has the skill to place. Scrubs or quitters still get their "free cards" by quitting but it will be limited to their uncommons and below.

1) Creating Pro-Tier only drafts splits the drafting community and can create a sense with the non Pro-Tiers of elitism, especially for new players down the road.

2) As stated previously, if someone wants to rare draft and quit who cares. If your in the draft to try and compete thats one less player you have to worry about. This can be much simpler by just having a tiered ranking system. Eventually the rare draft quit players will be at the bottom tier against each other and the other players will get out of that lowest tier by playing against all the quitters.

3) At what point do we expect Crypto to let it be a card game in the wild, so to speak, with some of the risks of a TCG draft. Beyond actual hacking/cheating and actual reportable behavior in chat/forums I don't want Crypto spending resources to hold everyones hand and make sure they behave in regards to card selection for drafts or deck construction for sealed/tourneys.

djlowballer
05-20-2013, 06:59 PM
Re-Drafting rares is actually a pretty common format in LGS which was created to prevent rare-drafting. It encourages good deck building and a competitive atmosphere by removing the temptation to take the "money card" over something more useful to your deck. Everybody still gets the same number of rares, only they pick based on their performance in the draft.

Players can save drafts for new releases all they want. They would still have to play in the "Pro Tier" and win to get the premier rares. Sure they would be getting commons and uncommons but lets be serious; how much do you expect those cards to be worth? I just bought a full playset of all U/C from the current block of MTGO for 16USD. There is a reason you see piles of cards thrown out after drafts in LGS.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 07:06 PM
Redrafting is stupid, you should get the cards you pick. Who cares if people pick value rares, you'll get more packs in the end from not if you're good enough. There will already be a competitive atmosphere, it's not like rare drafters or quitting literally sucks all of the competition or deck building skill out of everyone else. It's not a big deal and they don't need to implement anything to fix it and your FREE DRAFTS should not roll over. Stop asking for free shit.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:09 PM
Easy fix for people drafting only rare/legend cards? Tourney winner gets to take x amount of cards from losing players drafted deck (optional choice or they get x number of booster packs if they choose not to)

Talreth
05-20-2013, 07:12 PM
Easy fix for people drafting only rare/legend cards? Tourney winner gets to take x amount of cards from losing players drafted deck (optional choice or they get x number of booster packs if they choose not to)

What if you built a good deck with value rares in it but you lose and the winner just takes them? How is that fair? First of all it's not like you're going to get more than maybe a few rares per round if you're lucky. Because rares still get used in decks. If there are more than that, chances are they're trash rares anyways. I see no problem with people value drafting. Do you think it's cheap or something?

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:18 PM
What if you built a good deck with value rares in it but you lose and the winner just takes them? How is that fair? First of all it's not like you're going to get more than maybe a few rares per round if you're lucky. Because rares still get used in decks. If there are more than that, chances are they're trash rares anyways. I see no problem with people value drafting. Do you think it's cheap or something?

It's a tournament you lost. Play better keep your awesome deck. Not saying they get all your rare cards. Winner or hell even top 3 get to take 1 or 2 cards as part of the reward for winning. Drafts are suppose to be about skill building a deck that will let you win if you can't build a winning deck playing a draft tourney not for you till you learn.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 07:24 PM
It's a tournament you lost. Play better keep your awesome deck. Not saying they get all your rare cards. Winner or hell even top 3 get to take 1 or 2 cards as part of the reward for winning. Drafts are suppose to be about skill building a deck that will let you win if you can't build a winning deck playing a draft tourney not for you till you learn.

I'm sorry, is there like a universal rulebook somewhere that determines what experience every person is supposed to have while playing a TCG? Can you link that? Or are you really pretentious enough to say that your idea of how drafting is "suppose(d)" to be is the one true right way?

Facilier
05-20-2013, 07:29 PM
It's a tournament you lost. Play better keep your awesome deck. Not saying they get all your rare cards. Winner or hell even top 3 get to take 1 or 2 cards as part of the reward for winning. Drafts are suppose to be about skill building a deck that will let you win if you can't build a winning deck playing a draft tourney not for you till you learn.

This would be super-awful for the newer players. Not only are they likely to lose, but the players who beat them also take cards off them? This kind of school-yard-bully-taking-your-stuff system would actively push away potential players.

Rare drafters may seem frustrating, but... end of the day, in a draft everyone opens 3 boosters, so you always have a choice to take a minimum of 3 rares. If some newbie wants to take shinies for his constructed deck rather than build for the win... well, they were probably going to lose anyway, but now they leave satisfied for having gotten rares, and the winner leaves satisfied from getting prizes - multiple ways different people can win in a single draft, more players come back to do it again.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:31 PM
I'm sorry, is there like a universal rulebook somewhere that determines what experience every person is supposed to have while playing a TCG? Can you link that? Or are you really pretentious enough to say that your idea of how drafting is "suppose(d)" to be is the one true right way?

Why are you getting so defensive?

Drafts are about fair competition not about getting cards. If you want good cards buy them or buy more packs. Working a draft tourney to get cards so you don't have to pay for them is cheap and defeats the purpose of the draft concept. Again you want to keep your awesome cards you got in a draft? Win and you can. This encourages all involved to play their best and makes the tourney more enjoyable overall.

Mike411
05-20-2013, 07:34 PM
They aren't gonna do a seperate kickstarter draft system, as that would split everyone up when their goal is to match you with people of similar skill. And the winner taking cards from the loser is an incredibly unfriendly mechanic that wouldn't be implemented either. People signed up with the intention of it being simply a free entry per week into the formats that have already been announced at http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/ - they won't slap their kickstarter backers in the face.

Liokae
05-20-2013, 07:35 PM
On the other hand, ante-up matches would certainly be a good addition as a voluntary TYPE of match... just not as the default.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:36 PM
This would be super-awful for the newer players. Not only are they likely to lose, but the players who beat them also take cards off them? This kind of school-yard-bully-taking-your-stuff system would actively push away potential players.

Rare drafters may seem frustrating, but... end of the day, in a draft everyone opens 3 boosters, so you always have a choice to take a minimum of 3 rares. If some newbie wants to take shinies for his constructed deck rather than build for the win... well, they were probably going to lose anyway, but now they leave satisfied for having gotten rares, and the winner leaves satisfied from getting prizes - multiple ways different people can win in a single draft, more players come back to do it again.

In a tournament environment more experienced players will almost always win. But if a few people come into a draft and only take rare cards this hurts the new player playing just as much as the more veteran players. How will they get better if they don't play against people with good cards. The point of a draft is to give new players a fighting chance and make it less about pay to win and more about skill to win.

Liokae
05-20-2013, 07:38 PM
The point of a draft is to give new players a fighting chance and make it less about pay to win and more about skill to win.

The point of a draft is whatever the person playing in it entered it to do. Rare-drafting is a simple fact of life, and there is no system of "preventing" or "guarding" against it that is not IMMENSELY more detrimental to the game than the rare-draft itself.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 07:39 PM
Why are you getting so defensive?

Drafts are about fair competition not about getting cards. If you want good cards buy them or buy more packs.

Drafts are not "about" anything. A draft is about whatever the player playing it wants it to be about - and it is their right to do with their cards that they picked what they choose. I don't see how it ruins the integrity of your gaming experience. Also, "buy them or buy more packs" doesn't make sense when the cards you are getting are free, so there's not some kind of equal exchange here. The only reason I'm defensive is because I object to people imposing their subjective values on me in order to regulate my actions.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:43 PM
The point of a draft is whatever the person playing in it entered it to do. Rare-drafting is a simple fact of life, and there is no system of "preventing" or "guarding" against it that is not IMMENSELY more detrimental to the game than the rare-draft itself.

Why enter a tourney if you don't want to compete? Working the system to get more rare cards faster is hurting all involved except you if your rare drafting. That right there is by definition cheating the system and in a competitive environment cheating is wrong and hurts the spirit of the game.

Work the system in drafts so you can take the rares you get and sell them or build a deck for none draft tourney. Just say it that's what you want to do

Kitt
05-20-2013, 07:47 PM
Drafts are not "about" anything. A draft is about whatever the player playing it wants it to be about - and it is their right to do with their cards that they picked what they choose. I don't see how it ruins the integrity of your gaming experience. Also, "buy them or buy more packs" doesn't make sense when the cards you are getting are free, so there's not some kind of equal exchange here. The only reason I'm defensive is because I object to people imposing their subjective values on me in order to regulate my actions.

Agree to disagree but see my above post. Working the system to get more rare cards instead of competing in the tourney, the whole point of a tourney, is only benefiting you and hurt the others who want to play and compete in the tourney.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 07:51 PM
Why enter a tourney if you don't want to compete? Working the system to get more rare cards faster is hurting all involved except you if your rare drafting. That right there is by definition cheating the system and in a competitive environment cheating is wrong and hurts the spirit of the game.

Work the system in drafts so you can take the rares you get and sell them or build a deck for none draft tourney. Just say it that's what you want to do

Can you outline how it hurts everyone else in the draft except you? Additionally, if you rare draft and have a bad deck and new players play against you, it not only gives them a round to test out the deck they made but also a higher chance to win and play against people who made more competitive decks and also increase their likelihood of drafting more (because the more you win the more you'd want to draft). I realize that last part is an assumption but it seems like a logical following for a lot of people. Arguably it helps the new player because they'll be placing higher than they would otherwise, get experience testing their deck, and will get to play against people who made competitive decks. Please tell me how they lose.

jai151
05-20-2013, 07:51 PM
Why enter a tourney if you don't want to compete? Working the system to get more rare cards faster is hurting all involved except you if your rare drafting. That right there is by definition cheating the system and in a competitive environment cheating is wrong and hurts the spirit of the game.

Work the system in drafts so you can take the rares you get and sell them or build a deck for none draft tourney. Just say it that's what you want to do

You already are getting pack rewards if you win. Why are you so greedy you need to take other people's cards too?

Liokae
05-20-2013, 07:51 PM
Agree to disagree but see my above post. Working the system to get more rare cards instead of competing in the tourney, the whole point of a tourney, is only benefiting you and hurt the others who want to play and compete in the tourney.

You've presented no valid argument at all for why rare-drafting hurts the other people in the tourney other than the arrogant assumption that what you want out of the game is the only thing it's okay to want out of the game. Amazingly, some people's fun isn't predicated on every single one of their opponents giving their full effort to beating them.

d00dz
05-20-2013, 07:51 PM
I am adamantly against rolling over drafts to successive week(s). And this is coming from someone with 1 GK and 5 Pro Player tiers. If they do it, I stand to gain lots from this yet I am totally against the idea in the interest of the game.

jai151
05-20-2013, 07:55 PM
I am adamantly against rolling over drafts to successive week(s). And this is coming from someone with 1 GK and 5 Pro Player tiers. If they do it, I stand to gain lots from this yet I am totally against the idea in the interest of the game.

Since you can only combine four, you should go 3 GK 1 PP

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:00 PM
Since you can only combine four, you should go 3 GK 1 PP

Nothing wrong with 2 accounts

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:00 PM
Nothing wrong with 2 accounts

RIGHT! Multiple accounts, completely forgot about those

Mike411
05-20-2013, 08:01 PM
There's a reason rare drafting is not, and has not been a big deal in MTG, and why it's been there for eons. It's because the majority of people don't believe it's a problem. As has been said, drafting is "about" whatever you want it to be about. For me it's a combination of picking out cards that I want to use after the draft, and about picking cards I can build a fun deck around. Drafting is popular because it's a fun format that is so flexible, whatever your goals are. If rare drafting is an issue for you, IMO you shouldn't campaign to change the system, because it is very well established. Try something else like constructed.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:03 PM
Can you outline how it hurts everyone else in the draft except you? Additionally, if you rare draft and have a bad deck and new players play against you, it not only gives them a round to test out the deck they made but also a higher chance to win and play against people who made more competitive decks and also increase their likelihood of drafting more (because the more you win the more you'd want to draft). I realize that last part is an assumption but it seems like a logical following for a lot of people. Arguably it helps the new player because they'll be placing higher than they would otherwise, get experience testing their deck, and will get to play against people who made competitive decks. Please tell me how they lose.

Again but if you are drafting all the rare cards and new player is trying to build a deck to compete you are taking away from their ability to compete the their max. The point is drafting all the rares then losing because all you wanted to do was get the best cards the reason almost every tgc has rare drafts after the tourney. Enter a tourney to compete and test your skill at building a deck. The cards you get to keep should be a bonus.


You already are getting pack rewards if you win. Why are you so greedy you need to take other people's cards too?

I'm only put it out as a way to prevent people from drafting all the rarest cards in the draft then losing because they only want the cards. That's not the point of a draft tourney


You've presented no valid argument at all for why rare-drafting hurts the other people in the tourney other than the arrogant assumption that what you want out of the game is the only thing it's okay to want out of the game. Amazingly, some people's fun isn't predicated on every single one of their opponents giving their full effort to beating them.

You draft all rares lose round one. The other 7 lose out on all the rares they could of had because your trying to work the system. This hurts the overall competition of the tourney. What if you draft 5 rare blood cards I could use in the deck I'm building and don't have anything available to replace because I was drafting around the idea I might get 1 or 2 of them? Now I lose tourney because I was trying to build a deck to win and you just wanted the shiney cards. This hurts my experience. Do you need those cards? Are you just going to sell them? Why should I try to build a deck if that's all anyone does in a draft? Defeats the purpose of competition.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:03 PM
RIGHT! Multiple accounts, completely forgot about those

The real question is which one gets the GK ;D

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:06 PM
Again but if you are drafting all the rare cards and new player is trying to build a deck to compete you are taking away from their ability to compete the their max. The point is drafting all the rares then losing because all you wanted to do was get the best cards the reason almost every tgc has rare drafts after the tourney. Enter a tourney to compete and test your skill at building a deck. The cards you get to keep should be a bonus.

And how is you winding up with the new player's rares any better of an outcome?

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:09 PM
And how is you winding up with the new player's rares any better of an outcome?

If winner gets to take 1 or 2 better then a rare drafter taking all the good cards in the first few rounds then bailing after first round

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:10 PM
If winner gets to take 1 or 2 better then a rare drafter taking all the good cards in the first few rounds then bailing after first round

Yes, he took all of the good cards. Because it's not like people would want to use good cards to make a good deck, right?

Liokae
05-20-2013, 08:10 PM
You draft all rares lose round one. The other 7 lose out on all the rares they could of had because your trying to work the system. This hurts the overall competition of the tourney. What if you draft 5 rare blood cards I could use in the deck I'm building and don't have anything available to replace because I was drafting around the idea I might get 1 or 2 of them? Now I lose tourney because I was trying to build a deck to win and you just wanted the shiney cards. This hurts my experience. Do you need those cards? Are you just going to sell them? Why should I try to build a deck if that's all anyone does in a draft? Defeats the purpose of competition.

The odds of someone drafting out rares that would make or break your deck is exactly the same as those cards not appearing at all, or being drafted out by someone looking to build the same deck as you, or someone drafting them out because they notice someone seems to be drafting around that theme. It makes virtually zero change to your own deck building; likewise, if it's hurting *your* deck, the odds are just as good that it's hurting someone else's deck. Your odds of beating someone are completely untouched. The only difference is that they may be deliberately throwing away their OWN win- which does nothing but INCREASE your chances of winning overall, or if you get matched against them in a swiss, * guaranteeing* you a pack of your own. The net effect of someone rare-drafting is to increase the odds of getting a prize for all the other players, and it negatively affects their deck strength by a strictly equal amount, leaving the relative strength identical.

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:12 PM
If winner gets to take 1 or 2 better then a rare drafter taking all the good cards in the first few rounds then bailing after first round

No, it's not, either way the new player gets screwed, just in your version he ALWAYS gets screwed. With rare drafters, he may not have one in his pod (Or he can actually be one, as new players often are). It's just you wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You want to play to win AND rare draft.

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 08:12 PM
I fundamentally disagree that drafts are specifically about skill building a deck and winning and not about getting cards. Yes, skill building a deck is essentially what happens, and yes, doing so will make it more likely to win, but you know what also happens in that style of a draft? Getting cards. The importance of those two things are going to be different to different people, and to some people each has equal weight, and to some the order is flipped the exact opposite. People are going to fit all over the full spectrum between those two points.

At the same time, there is also nothing fundamentally wrong with rare re-drafting. If Hex had different levels of prize support and people could choose which one they wanted to enter with their draft token, whether it be 8-4, 5-3-2-2, Re-drafting, etc, I'd have no problem with that when the community big enough to support all the different styles that it doesn't majorly affect how often each draft begins.

And a quick question, are phantom drafts still a thing in MTGO? (Where you pay only a draft fee and don't need to supply boosters, but you don't keep any cards.) Or is that an experiment that failed? If Hex wanted to have one of those formats specifically be about the competition and not the cards, they could do that.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:13 PM
Yes, he took all of the good cards. Because it's not like people would want to use good cards to make a good deck, right?

But a rare drafter is only drafting for the cards to use later or sell. That defeats the point of a draft tourney. Basically they are working system the get a preview of card packs instead of just buying card pack. Working the system to cheat the system is not fair for anyone except them. The End

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:18 PM
No, it's not, either way the new player gets screwed, just in your version he ALWAYS gets screwed. With rare drafters, he may not have one in his pod (Or he can actually be one, as new players often are). It's just you wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You want to play to win AND rare draft.

No I enter a tourney to win the tourney. The cards are a bonus. That's my point. Cheating the system to get better cards in a card pack hurts all involved except the one doing it and only encourages others to do the same. If there is a penalty to doing it IE a redraft or winner gets to take or even swap cards with losers decks encourages you to try harder to win. Play to win! That is what tournaments are all about

Liokae
05-20-2013, 08:20 PM
But a rare drafter is only drafting for the cards to use later or sell. That defeats the point of a draft tourney. Basically they are working system the get a preview of card packs instead of just buying card pack. Working the system to cheat the system is not fair for anyone except them. The End

It only defeats the point of a draft if you assume that every single player is playing for the same reason you are. News flash: The game is not built to cater to your desires. People play for their own reasons, and how they choose to play has an, at worst, negligible effect on the rest of the tourney. There is literally nothing about rare drafting that impacts you other than your ridiculous sense that somebody else not playing the same way you do is wrong.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:23 PM
It only defeats the point of a draft if you assume that every single player is playing for the same reason you are. News flash: The game is not built to cater to your desires. People play for their own reasons, and how they choose to play has an, at worst, negligible effect on the rest of the tourney. There is literally nothing about rare drafting that impacts you other than your ridiculous sense that somebody else not playing the same way you do is wrong.

No it's working the system to cheat card packs that's all it is plan and simple. Why I play vs why others play has nothing to do with it. Rare drafters are there to get cards they want without paying for them or drawing them in a pack. That's cheating the system not playing the game.

Anyway I'm sry to get thread off topic lol

No free drafts shouldn't carry over or stack. Use them or lose them

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:24 PM
No I enter a tourney to win the tourney. The cards are a bonus. That's my point. Cheating the system to get better cards in a card pack hurts all involved except the one doing it and only encourages others to do the same. If there is a penalty to doing it IE a redraft or winner gets to take or even swap cards with losers decks encourages you to try harder to win. Play to win! That is what tournaments are all about

You say you are punishing the rare drafters because they hurt new players but your system highly disproportionately punishes new players (taking away product which they payed for). How can you possibly reconcile that?

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:25 PM
But a rare drafter is only drafting for the cards to use later or sell. That defeats the point of a draft tourney. Basically they are working system the get a preview of card packs instead of just buying card pack. Working the system to cheat the system is not fair for anyone except them. The End

Technically if they entered the tourney then they already bought the card packs. If it's a free tourney then they get the cards anyways. The end. I don't see why you think you need to regulate what other people do with their cards.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:28 PM
You say you are punishing the rare drafters because they hurt new players but your system highly disproportionately punishes new players (taking away product which they payed for). How can you possibly reconcile that?

Never said it was the end all be all. It's just a way to discourage it. Redrafting is prob the best way. If I had a better one I'd say it. My main point is rare drafters are cheating the system this hurts all involved except them. If a new player is entering a draft they are prob almost never going to win lets be honest. A ranking system will help to curb this.

Either way rare drafting is a cheat on the system and should be discouraged

Liokae
05-20-2013, 08:29 PM
I don't see why you think you need to regulate what other people do with their cards.

Well, obviously he's simply blessed with superior knowledge about how people should spend their entertainment time and we must all acquiesce to his grand plan.

ShaolinRaven
05-20-2013, 08:29 PM
If you break it down though a rare drafter is only guaranteed to get 3 rares, one rare from each of their own packs since they get first pick. They are competing for rares with 7 other people who might snag the rare for their deck cause its a good draft rare. Any rare that gets passed to the rare drafter is potentially toxic in a draft anyway which further decreases the chance anyone else would have picked it.

Once you start looking at it how much damage is a rare drafter really doing when they aren't even guaranteed to get many of those rares from other people's packs.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:30 PM
Technically if they entered the tourney then they already bought the card packs. If it's a free tourney then they get the cards anyways. The end. I don't see why you think you need to regulate what other people do with their cards.

Ok but you are basically stealing cards from me by drafting only rare cards. Why should I do anything but rare draft in the free drafts then? Why have free drafts at all then? Just give use 3 cards packs. Your missing the point of a tourney is to compete cards are a bonus.

Tinuvas
05-20-2013, 08:30 PM
No I enter a tourney to win the tourney. The cards are a bonus. That's my point. Cheating the system to get better cards in a card pack hurts all involved except the one doing it and only encourages others to do the same. If there is a penalty to doing it IE a redraft or winner gets to take or even swap cards with losers decks encourages you to try harder to win. Play to win! That is what tournaments are all about

Hmmm. The ideas set forth by this poster have been presented to the community. They have been soundly rejected based on my VERY scientific method of counting up those who agree against those who don't. Those who agree=0. Those who don't...ummm...everyone else it seems. Perhaps you would have better luck pitching your ideas to Cryptozoic directly? Good luck convincing that pile of VERY experienced genius' that your format will help. Good day!:)

BlindMan
05-20-2013, 08:31 PM
The word "cheat" doesn't make sense to me here. Everything they are doing is legal. You're actually saying the rules should be different because it's currently not cheating.

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:31 PM
Never said it was the end all be all. It's just a way to discourage it. Redrafting is prob the best way. If I had a better one I'd say it. My main point is rare drafters are cheating the system this hurts all involved except them. If a new player is entering a draft they are prob almost never going to win lets be honest. A ranking system will help to curb this.

Either way rare drafting is a cheat on the system and should be discouraged

It's not nearly as bad a problem as you think it is, nor is it even a fraction as damaging as what your system would do to new players.

I've played many, many, many pre-release drafts, where rare drafting pretty much just happens. Can't say it's ever affected the way I play or noticeably changed the odds for anyone at the table.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:31 PM
Never said it was the end all be all. It's just a way to discourage it. Redrafting is prob the best way. If I had a better one I'd say it. My main point is rare drafters are cheating the system this hurts all involved except them. If a new player is entering a draft they are prob almost never going to win lets be honest. A ranking system will help to curb this.

Either way rare drafting is a cheat on the system and should be discouraged

Well, seeing as how CZE said " Once we give you something, we won't take it away in even the most seemingly kind way (eg, by refunding packs.) If you open a super rare awesome card it's yours until you decide to trade it." I would assume it applies to drafting as well. They won't take away the cards you picked.

Liokae...I refuse D: we can start a resistance movement together.

Talreth
05-20-2013, 08:34 PM
Ok but you are basically stealing cards from me by drafting only rare cards. Why should I do anything but rare draft in the free drafts then? Why have free drafts at all then? Just give use 3 cards packs. Your missing the point of a tourney is to compete cards are a bonus.

I give you a better chance to win, aka stealing cards from you. Let's see...if I make a shitty deck with my 5 color rare drafted nonsense or whatever, if you are playing two out of three of the modes you already get AT LEAST one pack. I doubt many people rare draft in competitive anyways.

funktion
05-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Either way rare drafting is a cheat on the system and should be discouraged

I think the people who make this statement are all in some weird anti-social bubble where maybe they don't get out much. I'll use my local card shop as an example:
-Any time multiple drafts are firing at the same time (basically there is the chance for a brand new player who's never played even once) our judge says something along the lines of "Okay this is how drafting works. You're going to open your first pack of cards, you're going to take one card out of that pack and use it to build your deck at the end of the draft. You can pick any card you want, you can take the basic land forest because your favorite color is green, you can take the card of an angel because it has big boobs, you can take the foil card or the rare card because you think it's worth something, but at the end of the end of the draft you use those card to build a deck..." he then goes on to explain the prize structure etc.

I've heard this week in, week out, hundreds of times. I haven't once heard people complain about rare drafters. It's accepted that everyone is there to play the way they like whether it's cutthroat or for shiny dragons.

Oh for what it's worth... if you're a magic player, you might have even have read an article or have a Raging Ravine signed by the old judge at my store (he moved about 6 months ago). You might have also been slam dunked by one of the owners of the store in a MTGO draft, he won something called pro-tour berlin and the store's website can be found here #WTFisChannelFireball (http://store.channelfireball.com/landing)

I only mention / link another game to emphasize that it's only online elitists that seem to care one bit if people rare draft. You wouldn't care if the 12 year old kid at your shop did it, why do you care so much if someone online does. I don't get it.

Kitt
05-20-2013, 08:46 PM
I give you a better chance to win, aka stealing cards from you. Let's see...if I make a shitty deck with my 5 color rare drafted nonsense or whatever, if you are playing two out of three of the modes you already get AT LEAST one pack. I doubt many people rare draft in competitive anyways.

That's why drafts are rarely free the problem here is the free part. To many people will use the system to just get x number of rare cards with their free drafts which is sad to me. Obviously we will never agree and neither are right ;) I play drafts for the competition and challenge of building a deck with limited resources. Obviously others will use it to work the system to get rare cards which is sad to me and should be discouraged.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 08:53 PM
Get over it. 1000 pro tiers. 1000GK. A hundred or so higher. Most of them will play to win - the few that dont will be 0.01% of drafters. If you ever even meet ONE of these people, I doubt you could tell them apart from other rare drafters. If you could prove a pro player was rare drafting in a draft you were taking part in, without knowing their screen name ahead of time, I would be shocked.

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:54 PM
That's why drafts are rarely free the problem here is the free part. To many people will use the system to just get x number of rare cards with their free drafts which is sad to me. Obviously we will never agree and neither are right ;) I play drafts for the competition and challenge of building a deck with limited resources. Obviously others will use it to work the system to get rare cards which is sad to me and should be discouraged.

Really. You're basing this all on the FREE draft that AT MOST will happen 2100 times in a week.

First of all, you have no way to know how many of us intend to play out our drafts. I know I will, so there's two you can subtract from that total maximum. Second of all, the chances of actually running into one of the people with a free draft is going to be smaller than you think, and as the game goes on and gets more popular, the chances will fall further.

Second of all, you're blowing the rare draft problem out of proportion. If they're drafting the rare, it means they opened it or it was passed to them. If they opened it, there's absolutely no harm done, no system was gamed. If it was passed to them, except rares that really kill the format (and would be passed around the table till the end), it likely wouldn't have gone much further anyway.

The disruption is minimal, the problem is non-existent, and the only backing you can give is because it hurts your feelings.

Liokae
05-20-2013, 08:55 PM
The disruption is minimal, the problem is non-existent, and the only backing you can give is because it hurts your feelings.

Never underestimate the power of damaged fee-fees.

d00dz
05-20-2013, 08:57 PM
I don't mind rare drafters at all. If you want to rare-draft that's your prerogative. If you rare-draft and drop the game, I'll be even happier as it gives me a free win and a higher chance at prizes.

However, as I said earlier I am against rolling over drafts to successive weeks.

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:58 PM
I don't mind rare drafters at all. If you want to rare-draft that's your prerogative. If you rare-draft and drop the game, I'll be even happier as it gives me a free win and a higher chance at prizes.

However, as I said earlier I am against rolling over drafts to successive weeks.

And yeah, pretty much what he said

Kitt
05-20-2013, 09:09 PM
I can have my opinion just as much as the rest of you lol but because my opinion is different then yours and I tell you why you think it hurts my feelings? I could care less its a online game card game.

The only problem I have with rare drafters is that they hurt the rest of the people playing because they are only taking the cards with the highest rarity. That is not the point of a draft and we can all agree on that. This whole thing started because I said I didn't like rare drafts and threw out a idea. Then you 2 jumped on me because you didn't agree with me? Ya great hope it makes you feel like you won lol.

It's cheating the system to get the highest rarity cards in the packs that everyone is using. If you just want rare cards buy packs don't play a draft tourney that's how I feel. I know it's not a major problem never said it was. But being as this is a online only system people don't have to deal with the social side that they might have to deal with in a store doing this. anonymity will make this more tempting to some and it effects the experience that other might be having. If there is a block system I will block people that do this which fixes it for me but doesn't stop or discourage it which is all I was trying to suggest should be a system, however implemented, I feel should be put into place.

With that I will call it a night. Fun debating with ya :) no hurt feelings here hope none there

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 09:24 PM
The thing is it's just so weird that you are saying what you want to do is win, and yet you are against people who are actively building worse decks for the sake of getting rares, thus giving you a better chance of winning. You are also stating your case as if the rare-drafter will get a majority of the rares without anyone else having any input, even though everyone only looks at one pack at a time, and everyone has an equal chance of deciding to choose a rare or not. You are also stating your case as if there are no prize packs in the draft tourney, and the rares are the only cards of value.


Ok but you are basically stealing cards from me by drafting only rare cards. Why should I do anything but rare draft in the free drafts then? Why have free drafts at all then? Just give use 3 cards packs. Your missing the point of a tourney is to compete cards are a bonus.

Giving us just three packs of cards (taking your cue in ignoring the fact that people want to play with them) would eliminate the chance of winning more cards, including rares, including a lot of rares if you win a primal pack.

It sounds like you would almost be happier playing sealed, so you won't feel like people are stealing your cards.

How would you feel if there was a format that forced you to choose your rare as your first pick of every pack?

jai151
05-20-2013, 09:29 PM
Your exact words were "others will use it to work the system which is sad to me"

Any harm done to other players is minuscule, and chances are you wouldn't know who the rare Drafter was (if one was even there) unless he drops round one.

Your proposed solution was FAR more damaging to the system, basically encouraging people not to draft as if you don't win you lose cards. This is the most damaging to the new player, who you said you were trying to protect.

We jumped on you because your idea was poison for the game.

Grissnap
05-20-2013, 10:11 PM
Oh kay, thats a lot of pages I don't want to catch up on.

I'll just address why rollovers should not be allowed, in dramatic reenactment form:

[Enter Romeo, stage left]

Romeo: Hark! I play draft every week, and lo! I have thrice tiered, a professional player of the Hexes I am, and thrice weekly shall I draft!

[Weeks pass]

Romeo: Lo! Doth mine eyes deceive... Set 1 chase rares completely obtained have I, yet many fortnights remain 'til next set dawns. But what's this! Rollover! If I but abstain from draft until the light of next release, dozens, nay, twice dozens of new set packs shall be mine!

[Enter Horatio, stage right]

Horatio: Romeo! Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo! Or any of thine kindred drafters. Alas, I am forsaken, doomed to draft alone.

Romeo: Here be I, Horatio. A hiatus from draft we professional players have taken, perhaps with yon rabble thou could playest? Yorick for example?

Horatio: A dearth of drafts there have been. Yorick, poor soul, thirsted and thirsted, but not a draught could be found. He has quit this existence. Never to be seen again.

Romeo: Alas! Poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio.

[Both bow their heads in sorrow. Close curtain.]

- Fin -

ForgedSol
05-20-2013, 10:14 PM
Oh, I will step in and say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with rare re-drafting in any way. As long as both formats (the draft we're all used to and re-drafting) are available. Whatever you choose, you know the rules going in and so does everyone else. Even the strange You Pick X Cards from the Losers decks is all fine and good. As long as everyone knows the rules going in, then it's fine, and everyone is on equal footing, and they can choose which format that suits their goals the best. The only caveat is that the number of variations has to fit the size of the player base so that drafts can start at a reasonable amount of time.

BlindMan
05-20-2013, 10:29 PM
Bravo! Encore! Encore!

katkillad
05-20-2013, 10:32 PM
Maybe if it was limited to like 2 or 3, but otherwise it would be abusable and the perk is good enough as is.

TheBlueMagician
05-20-2013, 11:05 PM
I can have my opinion just as much as the rest of you lol but because my opinion is different then yours and I tell you why you think it hurts my feelings? I could care less its a online game card game.

The only problem I have with rare drafters is that they hurt the rest of the people playing because they are only taking the cards with the highest rarity. That is not the point of a draft and we can all agree on that. This whole thing started because I said I didn't like rare drafts and threw out a idea. Then you 2 jumped on me because you didn't agree with me? Ya great hope it makes you feel like you won lol.

It's cheating the system to get the highest rarity cards in the packs that everyone is using. If you just want rare cards buy packs don't play a draft tourney that's how I feel. I know it's not a major problem never said it was. But being as this is a online only system people don't have to deal with the social side that they might have to deal with in a store doing this. anonymity will make this more tempting to some and it effects the experience that other might be having. If there is a block system I will block people that do this which fixes it for me but doesn't stop or discourage it which is all I was trying to suggest should be a system, however implemented, I feel should be put into place.

With that I will call it a night. Fun debating with ya :) no hurt feelings here hope none there

You know, I didn't read through all 9 pages in order to catch the entirety of your rambling, but given that we know there are different tiers of drafting, why is this a problem? If you want to always play competitive draft, maybe you should just always play in the competitive tier. Wow, that was hard.

You also had the almost argument that people are "stealing cards from you" by picking them. In a draft tournament. The motive for taking the card is a misdirection at best, as the point of the tournament is to 1) play card games; 2) get new cards; 3) win, and you don't necessarily have to care about all of those to participate. Under your line of logic, block picking is also "stealing cards from you," which similarly makes little sense. Just because someone picked the card because they wanted it doesn't mean they're stealing from you if you passed on it, or haven't seen it yet.

Also, from everything I've read and heard, your suggestions on how to fix this..."problem" are actually worse than the "problem" itself, so I imagine that has more to do with why you sort of lost this argument. Because literally no one thought it was a good idea.

Penultimate-ly, you half-patronizing, half-butthurt basket cases are the worst. You call out corner cases with obvious existing solutions, disingenuously overstate the significance of whatever issue you're harping on about, and then get super defensive and obnoxious when no one likes your proposed solutions because they're poorly thought out. All this while sugar coating half of what you say in a vain attempt to appear nice.

Finally, here's a solution that I hope was mentioned before because it was so obvious: separate gift drafts and full paid drafts. KS drafts happen in their own separate tier, as it's more likely someone will want to rare draft with something they didn't immediately invest any money in. If someone bought 3 boosters, and paid the entry fee, they want to draft for the purpose of playing the game. Exclusively. This solution would need a lot of work put into it, because separating out the KS drafts and paid drafts raises all sorts of complications like population concerns and fairness and whatever, but I could see an argument justifying separating the two (I just don't care to actually make it because I think it's somewhat irrelevant).

Epilogue: now for the love of god, can we stop getting crazy people complaining about some perceived balance issue in a feature we haven't even gotten into the hands of a small minority of customers? Like, constructive criticism is good and all (and the OP was about something that I hadn't seen on the forums, so not talking about that), but this has all been done before. Also, take a step back and think before speaking: do you really think the people who make TCGs for a living didn't mull over this question a million times, and come up with better answers than any of us here? Trust the experts to make the damn game, and then address problems as they become apparent. That's what the beta period is going to be for.

Frodus
05-20-2013, 11:06 PM
I'm pretty sure the guys that snatched up a tier that gives them ~355 for free EVERY YEAR, not including whatever they make in winnings and prizes and profits can afford to miss out on a $7 draft every once in a while.
does Pro Player tier seriously need a buff?

funktion
05-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Bluemagician crits thread for over 9000
/end

Tinuvas
05-20-2013, 11:13 PM
@Grissnap - Shakespeare has nothing on you man!

Grissnap
05-20-2013, 11:40 PM
@Tinuvas - I ...may... have borrowed a "tiny" bit from him.

@Bluemagician - No thank you to separate "free draft" queues. I did not sign up for pro player tier to be placed in a draft ghetto. I'd like to compete in draft with all the other competitive players. I don't think punishing players wanting to use their KS rewards as intended is the best solution.

/bites thumb

TheBlueMagician
05-20-2013, 11:47 PM
@Tinuvas - I ...may... have borrowed a "tiny" bit from him.

@Bluemagician - No thank you to separate "free draft" queues. I did not sign up for pro player tier to be placed in a draft ghetto. I'd like to compete in draft with all the other competitive players. I don't think punishing players wanting to use their KS rewards as intended is the best solution.

/bites thumb

Like I said, it would need some work if you wanted to present it as a full argument. The main distinction I was drawing was "paid vs. unpaid motivations," which was what Kitt was focusing on. The more I think about it, the less I agree with it myself (and I already thought it was a rather problematic and poorly thought out idea, one that I would never implement myself), for reasons like the one you stated.

YouMustChoose
05-21-2013, 12:08 AM
I'm still really confused about this whole topic. Is drafting rares somehow "cheating?" I just don't understand how a person who picks out only the most expensive cards out of their 45 has some kind of advantage over the other players who are going to advance in the tournament and win additional packs. I mean even if a person was picking out only the cards with the greatest marketplace value, usually those cards are the ones everyone wants anyway so those are all going to go fast regardless. So why would it be in some way "better" to purposefully bomb your chances of getting greater rewards in exchange for rewards that are already assured? I'm just not seeing how this can be considered a "cheat" in the system. I think these people are losing more than they are gaining.

funktion
05-21-2013, 12:30 AM
I'm still really confused about this whole topic. Is drafting rares somehow "cheating?" I just don't understand how a person who picks out only the most expensive cards out of their 45 has some kind of advantage over the other players who are going to advance in the tournament and win additional packs. I mean even if a person was picking out only the cards with the greatest marketplace value, usually those cards are the ones everyone wants anyway so those are all going to go fast regardless. So why would it be in some way "better" to purposefully bomb your chances of getting greater rewards in exchange for rewards that are already assured? I'm just not seeing how this can be considered a "cheat" in the system. I think these people are losing more than they are gaining.

It's not cheating in any way. Like you mentioned it's hurting your chances of winning. Really what this thread is, is "Wahhhhh, I want to have my cake and eat it too!"

Grissnap
05-21-2013, 12:36 AM
Honestly, I don't see how it will be that big of a deal in how Crypto have set up tournament styles.

Taking into consideration personal motivation, and the whole time/cards balance, you'll see that most likely rare drafters will be focused into one format, and that they will be encouraged to at least play 1 game.

First, lets look at the draft tournament structures that will be available:
Competitive: Top 2 get prizes, single elimination
Casual: Top 4 get prizes, single elimination
Swiss Play Draft: Top 7 get prizes, 3 rounds

Now first, our assumption is that the person using their free draft wants to pick their rares and then leave. They would still have to sit through the drafting process up to a certain point, and I am going to make the assumption that if they quit out of the drafting process prematurely, if they try to do anything else they'll just be reconnected to the draft.

So now they could quit once the drafting part is done... but its just a matter of minutes until they can start playing the first round to see if they could get more "free" prizes. But that being said, they are time conscious and would rather be PvEing or something. So they don't want to have to commit to 3 games in order to get a prize, thus competitive format is out.

Instead of having to play multiple games, they choose the "Casual" format, where if they win their first round, they are guaranteed to get something in addition to their rares. They might still quit their first round if they think their deck looks weak, or their opponent is stronger, but they will still at least try to play at first. If they win, they are guaranteed a prize, (assuming 1st place has better prizes than 4th place) they will attempt the second round as well. If during the second round it is looking like they can't beat the opponent they can just forfeit then, take their prize, and get back to what they were doing. This is a win-win for the person they were up against.

They won't likely go to the Swiss style, because the prizes are likely to be worse, and would thus need to play more rounds to see the same payoff as casual draft.

So for people who are concerned about rare drafters, I would focus on the competitive format, because you are less likely to see people drop or rare draft.

The swiss format is also an alternative, because all the people there are likely to be willing to play all three games (because the person going 0-3 is the only person who doesn't get a prize). However, prizes aren't as big of a payoff, so people are more likely to pick rares rather than pass them.

tl;dr

Play competitive format because you are less likely to run into rare drafters/people who drop games.

ForgedSol
05-21-2013, 01:06 AM
I'm not so sure. It seems to me that if you wanted to money/rare draft with no intention of attempting to win any packs, choosing competitive would be the way to go because less people will pick any money cards over cards that will better help them win the draft.

On the other hand, perhaps those players wouldn't be as angry about it because that just means they're more likely to get to the top 2.

Tinuvas
05-21-2013, 01:14 AM
@Tinuvas - I ...may... have borrowed a "tiny" bit from him
/bites thumb

ROFL! Good form!

Grissnap
05-21-2013, 01:20 AM
Money rares... I would assume those would get hated by drafters anyway. Though I am sure there might be some that join the competitive draft with those expectations.

@Tinuvas - my good deed for the day accomplished :D

katkillad
05-21-2013, 02:11 AM
I'm going to rare draft and still beat people with a gimped deck :cool:

But seriously, people need to stop trying to tell people what to do with their drafts and how to play. If someone wants to rare draft and quit, that's their choice. You get a free win congrats! You'll probably earn some extra packs for someone dropping out.

Karnegal
05-21-2013, 02:11 AM
This is totally unnecessary. A draft a week is a already an amazing perk, if you don't use it you should lose it - especially because it could be abused for hording and cashing in on a new set. If you miss a week because you're busy (say a vacation), that's tough, but the draft a week is such a good deal anyway that you're not really hurting.

I'm 100% fine with my opponents dropping out of drafts after they pick, especially if I can just play PvE in between rounds. It just means I'll take a bigger share of the prizes. I didn't pick up free draft tiers so that I could open 45 cards and drop, I did it so I can roll 45 cards into additional prizes.