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Sci3nce
05-20-2013, 01:10 PM
Assuming that Foiled PVP cards stay foiled, are there any plans to prevent botting? or will the botters have the most valuable cards in the game?

Daer
05-20-2013, 01:11 PM
Yes their plans are to let bots run wild.

Sci3nce
05-20-2013, 01:12 PM
Might have no choice

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:12 PM
Yes their plans are to let bots run wild.

Only if they're created by dwarves.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:14 PM
People are always going to find a way to Bot in a lot of games. There are some pretty simple ways to detect them. Hours played, time between rounds, other things that can send up red flags.

Most will use another free account to bot with if such a thing exists and only put in jeopardy what cards they are doing this with. So its a risk vs reward thing on the account getting banned and how fast they can catch it.

Hadin
05-20-2013, 01:15 PM
People are always going to find a way to Bot in a lot of games. There are some pretty simple ways to detect them. Hours played, time between rounds, other things that can send up red flags.

Most will use another free account to bot with if such a thing exists and only put in jeopardy what cards they are doing this with. So its a risk vs reward thing on the account getting banned and how fast they can catch it.

Fortunately in this game each card has a unique ID, so tracking account activity should be pretty easy.

Hexmage
05-20-2013, 01:18 PM
Unless you want to make a program that has an AI as good as the games or you wont really get that far with botting in this game.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:20 PM
I think what they were saying is you don't have to play/bot well to level cards just need to use them a lot. Foils will have a much higher value on the AH then normal versions.

Madican
05-20-2013, 01:21 PM
Botting works in other MMO's because they can perform a repetitive, but simple, task for hours on end. Harvest some ores with static spawns, kill mobs, run a set route in a dungeon with programmed behavior that will be the same every time.

Not so easy to do any of that with a TCG. Encounters will always be different, there are no static spawns, no repetitive tasks a bot can perform.

Sci3nce
05-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Indeed, and unique ID's won't help if I buy a Foiled card that was level'd by a botter. No reason I should be punished for wanting to buy a foil.

Hadin
05-20-2013, 01:25 PM
Indeed, and unique ID's won't help if I buy a Foiled card that was level'd by a botter. No reason I should be punished for wanting to buy a foil.

I was more referring to the devs being able to identify a botter (if it is against the ToS). If that player transfers those cards to their main account there should be a record of that transaction. Alternatively, if that person sells those cards and then transfers the money to their main account, that too should be trackable.

Sci3nce
05-20-2013, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't mind PvP Card only gaining XP in PvP. Then I don't even have to worry about botters. That of course won't solve the problem for PvE enthusiasts.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:26 PM
I was more referring to the devs being able to identify a botter (if it is against the ToS). If that player transfers those cards to their main account there should be a record of that transaction. Alternatively, if that person sells those cards and then transfers the money to their main account, that too should be trackable.

Ah ya true.

Joolz
05-20-2013, 01:27 PM
In theory, you could make an aggro deck that said "place a resource if you have one, play most expensive card available, attack with everything". Even with a very good AI given enough games that bot would win some games every so often. I have no idea if it would be worth it but that's just an example. Of course that "bot" would likely be pretty damn easy to spot.

Mugaaz
05-20-2013, 01:36 PM
Unless you want to make a program that has an AI as good as the games or you wont really get that far with botting in this game.

If the objectiv eof the bot is to grind exp and card exp in PvE matches, then you are incorrect.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 01:41 PM
I wouldn't mind PvP Card only gaining XP in PvP. Then I don't even have to worry about botters. That of course won't solve the problem for PvE enthusiasts.

What is to stop one guy with two accounts playing each other endlessly. To truly take out botting from the scene with foils, they would have to only be leveled up through tournaments. That, however, limits ppl enjoying the fact that they level their own cards. With that point, I'm now back to square one wanting the foils to come from packs...

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:43 PM
What is to stop one guy with two accounts playing each other endlessly. To truly take out botting from the scene with foils, they would have to only be leveled up through tournaments. That, however, limits ppl enjoying the fact that they level their own cards. With that point, I'm now back to square one wanting the foils to come from packs...

Honestly, botting for foils is going to eventually backfire. If people only ever sell foil cards, the non-foil versions are going to be more valuable.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:45 PM
Honestly, botting for foils is going to eventually backfire. If people only ever sell foil cards, the non-foil versions are going to be more valuable.

That will never happen, there will always be a higher demand for foils then supply.

Hadin
05-20-2013, 01:46 PM
Honestly, botting for foils is going to eventually backfire. If people only ever sell foil cards, the non-foil versions are going to be more valuable.


I highly doubt this will occur for a very long time. The only time I could see this being true is years down the road when a heavily played, extremely rare card has had 95% of its total card amount turned into foil. This would also require that almost all booster packs in existence had also been cracked so that this value couldn't change much.

Kroan
05-20-2013, 01:48 PM
Since every card is potentially a foil I don't see how "botting" a card into foil will be worthwhile. I mean, how much extra do you expect the card to be worth? 2%? I don't know. Seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

Mugaaz
05-20-2013, 01:48 PM
What is to stop one guy with two accounts playing each other endlessly. To truly take out botting from the scene with foils, they would have to only be leveled up through tournaments. That, however, limits ppl enjoying the fact that they level their own cards. With that point, I'm now back to square one wanting the foils to come from packs...

Make it platinum tournament only DOES solve it if its PVP only IMO

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:48 PM
That will never happen, there will always be a higher demand for foils then supply.

Not if the reputation becomes "If you bought a foil, it came from a bot."

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:50 PM
Not if the reputation becomes "If you bought a foil, it came from a bot."

Do you think people really care about that? Or that Nike's are made by children for pennies a day?

People don't care where the product comes from.

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:54 PM
Do you think people really care about that? Or that Nike's are made by children for pennies a day?

People don't care where the product comes from.

Hm. Then suggestion time.

Namestamp the card when it goes foil. Have it say, "Card unlocked by XXX"

That will add a second bit of collector value to cards unlocked by famous players, like an autograph, and help keep the bot market in check (Who wants a card unlocked by Xrnnsyg?)

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 01:55 PM
Hm. Then suggestion time.

Namestamp the card when it goes foil. Have it say, "Card unlocked by XXX"

That will add a second bit of collector value to cards unlocked by famous players, like an autograph, and help keep the bot market in check (Who wants a card unlocked by Xrnnsyg?)

No... I don't want other players names on my cards. That's crap.
Accounts are free here. A botter will simply have premade decks to supply bots and then they're off. The only risk is that singular deck. Once a bot it caught, 10more are already started. Putting names on it won't stop anything imo.

jai151
05-20-2013, 01:57 PM
No... I don't want other players names on my cards. That's crap

Then unlock it yourself. It's no different than "Crafted by XXX" on gear in WoW.


Accounts are free here. A botter will simply have premade decks to supply bots and then they're off. The only risk is that singular deck. Once a bot it caught, 10more are already started. Putting names on it won't stop anything imo.

I'm not saying having the individual bot's name on it will somehow point out that it was botted up. What I'm saying is bots are made with names like Adlkfasdkfg. So instead of getting a card that, on the double-back, says, "Unlocked by Jai" it would say, "Unlocked by Adlkfasdkfg"

Which would hurt the collector value.

At the same time, it gives players more incentive to unlock their own cards and put their own names on them AND it opens up a collectors market for cards unlocked by famous accounts.

YouMustChoose
05-20-2013, 01:58 PM
Honestly I think they are going to do what they can to keep foils rare regardless of how people are going to cheat. It may be that the goals on the cards get more complicated or they look for ways to validate humanity before game start. Whatever they do this team is pretty committed to this game so I'm sure they're gonna find ways to prevent as much botting as possible.

Ashenor
05-20-2013, 01:58 PM
Here is the bottom line on it, people always wants something as cheap as they can get it. Botting would be a low time investment and produce at a higher quantity then a normal person can. They will always be able to sell cheaper, and people will always buy the cheapest one on the AH.

It will come down to awareness on Crypt's part, which i am sure they well be well aware of the possibles and monitor things well.

Daer
05-20-2013, 01:59 PM
you could have "Unlocked by XXXX" not show on the card and just show in the database.

YouMustChoose
05-20-2013, 02:00 PM
you could have "Unlocked by XXXX" not show on the card and just show in the database.

This would seriously piss me off. I hate inconvenience.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 02:03 PM
you could have "Unlocked by XXXX" not show on the card and just show in the database.

yes. I'm assuming that Cryptozoic is thinking of many ways to detect the cheaters and take them out at the source (main account)

Daer
05-20-2013, 02:03 PM
Something you couldn't see would piss you off?

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 02:05 PM
Bots will take a bigger investment to set up than in most MMO's (as in you might have to pay money to make money) since you have to have a supply of cards to make the deck, then stop and update the deck every so often to maximise the speed (and therefore profits) etc etc. Free accounts would be crap for this, they could only farm PvE unless the person setting it up buys boosters - something people wanting to earn money would probably want to avoid.

I think botting will be a less popular feature in this setting, but I wouldn't want to ignore the issue.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 02:12 PM
Bots will take a bigger investment to set up than in most MMO's (as in you might have to pay money to make money) since you have to have a supply of cards to make the deck, then stop and update the deck every so often to maximise the speed (and therefore profits) etc etc. Free accounts would be crap for this, they could only farm PvE unless the person setting it up buys boosters - something people wanting to earn money would probably want to avoid.

I think botting will be a less popular feature in this setting, but I wouldn't want to ignore the issue.

I'm sorry to say, you are completely incorrect. Botting would be infinitely easier here. You create an account and make a trade and adjust the user/pass in the software. Literally, you will be able to set one up in 2 minutes. That's it. Games like WoW you have to level them up for significant time investment.

The biggest deterrent for bots in this game is to actually not make the game beneficial in a way that ppl will want to bot it: ie lvling cards with XP. Remove that and it's solved. Another resolution is if Cryptozoic likes the XP on cards is to have the leveling of cards only happen in Tournaments. The beauty of it all though is that the company is not committed to anything yet if they feel they need to make corrective measures.

Another downside with "bots" is that ppl will supposedly create some claiming to be bots and they are in all actuality key loggers. This will lead to a lot of ppl losing all their cards and whining to Cryptozoic that they were "hacked". Sadly, this would tie up a lot of customer service resources and $ doing so. Truly though, in the end, it would be the fault of the user.

As the economies in PVE and PVP are seperate, then ppl would be left with the choice of botting dungeons. As the F2P will draw in hopefully over 1mil ppl, I can't see this being to profitable in time. Hence, they'd be better off then spending their time botting another game that yields much more profit.

Just my 2cents. I don't want to see the game full of bots and believe proper planning of the "Foil Dilemma" is the key to it all.

EntropyBall
05-20-2013, 02:13 PM
I'm not saying having the individual bot's name on it will somehow point out that it was botted up. What I'm saying is bots are made with names like Adlkfasdkfg. So instead of getting a card that, on the double-back, says, "Unlocked by Jai" it would say, "Unlocked by Adlkfasdkfg"

Which would hurt the collector value.

At the same time, it gives players more incentive to unlock their own cards and put their own names on them AND it opens up a collectors market for cards unlocked by famous accounts.

I think this is a great idea. I would take pride in playing a foil with my name on it, whereas I don't care that much about just playing a foil because its shiny. Otherwise, all a foil tells people is that you spent extra money to have that card.

jai151
05-20-2013, 02:15 PM
Bots are infinitely easier here. You create an account and make a trade. You will be able to set one up in 2 minutes. Games like WoW you have to level them up for significant time investment.

The biggest deterrent for bots in this game is to actually not make the game beneficial in a way that ppl will want to bot it: ie lvling cards with XP. Remove that and it's solved.

As the economies in PVE and PVP are seperate, then ppl would be left with the choice of botting dungeons. As the F2P will draw in hopefully over 1mil ppl, I can't see this being to profitable in time. Hence, they'd be better off then spending their time botting another game that yields much more profit.

Even easier way. Only make the experience add to the card count if you win the duel.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 02:23 PM
Even easier way. Only make the experience add to the card count if you win the duel.

Bot1 plays Bot2. It's a win regardless of w/e of his accounts wins. That is not a good solution. I do welcome other thoughts besides what I brainstormed though.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 02:25 PM
I'm sorry to say, you are completely incorrect. Botting would be infinitely easier here. You create an account and make a trade and adjust the user/pass in the software. Literally, you will be able to set one up in 2 minutes. That's it. Games like WoW you have to level them up for significant time investment.

The biggest deterrent for bots in this game is to actually not make the game beneficial in a way that ppl will want to bot it: ie lvling cards with XP. Remove that and it's solved. Another resolution is if Cryptozoic likes the XP on cards is to have the leveling of cards only happen in Tournaments. The beauty of it all though is that the company is not committed to anything yet if they feel they need to make corrective measures.

Another downside with "bots" is that ppl will supposedly create some claiming to be bots and they are in all actuality key loggers. This will lead to a lot of ppl losing all their cards and whining to Cryptozoic that they were "hacked". Sadly, this would tie up a lot of customer service resources and $ doing so. Truly though, in the end, it would be the fault of the user.

As the economies in PVE and PVP are seperate, then ppl would be left with the choice of botting dungeons. As the F2P will draw in hopefully over 1mil ppl, I can't see this being to profitable in time. Hence, they'd be better off then spending their time botting another game that yields much more profit.

Just my 2cents. I don't want to see the game full of bots and believe proper planning of the "Foil Dilemma" is the key to it all.

I didn't say they would be incredibly difficult to set up, I said they would require a supply of cards and micro management. And free accounts made by people who have no prior investment is what I should have said - my mistake for not being perfectly clear.

Liokae
05-20-2013, 02:30 PM
I'd think most botted foils would be easy to spot by virtue of not having any achievements or trophies on the doubleback.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 02:30 PM
I didn't say they would be incredibly difficult to set up, I said they would require a supply of cards and micro management. And free accounts made by people who have no prior investment is what I should have said - my mistake for not being perfectly clear.

sorry i'm jumping all over this--i just hate these botters with a passion in WoW. They ruin everything. Cryptozoic really needs to re-evaluate the XP on cards or remove it all together imo. If not, it will be like swatting bees that never stop coming out of the hive.

Omegahugger
05-20-2013, 02:31 PM
Some achievements like getting 100 Raptors or dealing 50 damage to champions seem pretty easy for Bots to get.

Xenavire
05-20-2013, 02:33 PM
sorry i'm jumping all over this--i just hate these botters with a passion in WoW. They ruin everything. Cryptozoic really needs to re-evaluate the XP on cards or remove it all together imo. If not, it will be like swatting bees that never stop coming out of the hive.

Agreed. This is the exact reason I hate farming anything EVER in WoW - bots, bots everywhere.

I can't stand it.

Stok3d
05-20-2013, 02:33 PM
Some achievements like getting 100 Raptors or dealing 50 damage to champions seem pretty easy for Bots to get.

Only thing I believe ppl will care about with buying cards is the visual difference--foils.

Edit: Just noticed those chieves you said are tied to the cards (thanks Daer & Omega). Those chieves look pretty easy to get... maybe a single game. hmm...

If the foils are unlocked in a couple games of XP, it also may not be that big of a deal. However, if it requires say 24hours of playtime then you will be looking a significant difference between foil sets and nonfoil sets.

This AH is going to be interesting with all the differences between cards.

jai151
05-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Bot1 plays Bot2. It's a win regardless of w/e of his accounts wins. That is not a good solution. I do welcome other thoughts besides what I brainstormed though.

Win in rated pvp or pve only

Daer
05-20-2013, 02:34 PM
achievements are tied to the card, they unlock extended art

Sci3nce
05-20-2013, 03:43 PM
sorry i'm jumping all over this--i just hate these botters with a passion in WoW. They ruin everything. Cryptozoic really needs to re-evaluate the XP on cards or remove it all together imo. If not, it will be like swatting bees that never stop coming out of the hive.

I can already see the "WWW.HEXGOLD.COM" chat spam by "asdfghjkl" and "asdfghjkl2"

Mugaaz
05-20-2013, 07:13 PM
Experience can only be gained in entree fee events either PvP/PvE is really the ONLY SINGLE way to stop botting from being used for this purpose. ANY other way will not work.

Googolplex
05-20-2013, 08:50 PM
Experience can only be gained in entree fee events either PvP/PvE is really the ONLY SINGLE way to stop botting from being used for this purpose. ANY other way will not work.
Pretty much this :)

However that is not going to happen, since the PvE campaign is free, and people will rage if their cards don't get xp from PvE.

jai151
05-20-2013, 08:57 PM
Pretty much this :)

However that is not going to happen, since the PvE campaign is free, and people will rage if their cards don't get xp from PvE.

The cards SHOULD get experience from PvE. As long as you win the duel. Good luck programming that bot.

WWKnight
05-20-2013, 11:12 PM
I Love the idea of stamping the name of the foil and full art unlocker on the double back of the card. The name could go over the filled EXP bar for foil, and the achievements could make way for the name for the full art. I think it was a fantastic idea.

funktion
05-20-2013, 11:46 PM
sorry i'm jumping all over this--i just hate these botters with a passion in WoW. They ruin everything. Cryptozoic really needs to re-evaluate the XP on cards or remove it all together imo. If not, it will be like swatting bees that never stop coming out of the hive.

So let me get this straight... There's a superficial feature that's awesome and had never been done before, a lot of people are excited about it. Because it's so awesome, there's going to people who try to profit from it. Because there's people trying to profit, some will take shortcuts (botting). And finally, because there are is potential for botting, they should not only stop working on but actively spend time to remove a feature so that people are less encouraged to bot?

ShadowIronblood
05-21-2013, 12:06 AM
they could just ban botting instead of removing anything. we're here to play a card game that has never been made like this before, guild wars 1/2 would ban accounts for botting i dont see why CZ couldnt do that. With an AH there no need for bot merchant like in MTGO; which is a key feature that game poorly lacked. From what ive seen bots only harm or discourage the community so a strong stance against them from CZ should do the trick to keep the game running smoothly.

jai151
05-21-2013, 04:29 AM
they could just ban botting instead of removing anything. we're here to play a card game that has never been made like this before, guild wars 1/2 would ban accounts for botting i dont see why CZ couldnt do that. With an AH there no need for bot merchant like in MTGO; which is a key feature that game poorly lacked. From what ive seen bots only harm or discourage the community so a strong stance against them from CZ should do the trick to keep the game running smoothly.

The issue is there is no barrier for re-entry. In guild wars, a banned account must repurchase the game. Here, just create another account

EntropyBall
05-21-2013, 04:35 AM
I Love the idea of stamping the name of the foil and full art unlocker on the double back of the card. The name could go over the filled EXP bar for foil, and the achievements could make way for the name for the full art. I think it was a fantastic idea.

Yeah, regardless of whether or not it was used to combat botting, this would be fun, and probably a simple thing to add.

Liqududi
05-21-2013, 04:47 AM
The way i see the achievements, if theres some random person name on the card it diminishes the value for me even if its in foil state. I would maybe even pay few cents more for blank card than one thats associated with known farmer. So i dont see problem here.

Omegahugger
05-21-2013, 04:51 AM
It could also make some people choose more inventive names and create an attachment between players and their cards. I approve too.

WWKnight
05-21-2013, 05:09 AM
And then if World Champion, Joe Bloggs foils a card, it has an inherit value in trade.

Malicus
05-21-2013, 05:10 AM
I think putting the name of the unlocker's on the double back would be an excellent feature regardless of how much of a solution it might be. Its not exactly hard to come up with a name if it is necessary, the only reason bots don't is because they don't need to. Though I did always wonder why they didn't just use the random name generator in games like wow so they looked even slightly less like bots.

Arbiter
05-21-2013, 05:53 AM
You can't cut people off from part of the game by forcing them to PvP. You can, though, disallow achievements and XP gain in casual play. That still gives plenty of avenues for all players to level their cards and get achievements. Casual play is then left to things like testing and having some fun, which is its own reward, rather than people trying to cheese achievements or quickly level cards.

ShaolinRaven
05-21-2013, 05:56 AM
The issue is there is no barrier for re-entry. In guild wars, a banned account must repurchase the game. Here, just create another account

Yeah but you have to remake an account where you only get the basic starter. Any boosters, pve equipment/card, any pvp card you've gotten outside the free starter will be gone. All the work will also be gone, so while it might not stop a determined botter it can still be a deterrent, especially since you'll have to spend money to build a deck worth boting.