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View Full Version : Tier improvement suggestions to gain more broad support



ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:16 AM
Hats off to CZE. They made some attractive tiers that provide amazing value. This has allowed them their incredible success so far.

Unfortunately, the most attractive tiers are limited and are gone (or nearly so).

With a few tweaks, I think CZE could start a second wave of pledging for those that may have missed out on the Pro or GK tiers but find the kickstarter toward the end of its run. CZE needs this to keep the level of pledging up through the end of the fund raising.

Suggestions:

1. Squire and up: One free booster for every new set to release, FOR LIFE!

- This would provide a tangible benefit for every tier and would have the added effect of "one free hit" each time a new set is released. It could even prompt players who have drifted away to come back for a taste of the new set, leading them to purchase more boosters if they find themselves intrigued in the new mechanics.

2. King Draft: New tier at $165. Everything from King + one free draft per MONTH, FOR LIFE!

- Self explanatory. People like "free" stuff. A lot of folks would upgrade from King to this, plus it gives people who missed out on Pro a similar benefit. I don't see many dropping from Pro to this tier since the Pro benefit is so much greater. This would not automatically propagate up to any of the higher tiers.

3. Dungeon Crawler: One free loot chest per week, FOR LIFE!

- Similar to the Pro, this gives a "free" tangible benefit per week. The loot chest could be gold, an equipment, a card, a booster, etc. If it's clearly defined, I think this would make this tier much more attractive.

4. The Collector: Four of every KS exclusive card + four copies of the six alternate art cards per year.

- Collectors want full sets. Nuff said. Maybe boost the yearly alternate art cards to 10 per year instead of six.

5. Raid Leader: ...

- I dunno. Something needs to be done here. Maybe more Raid Leader exclusive cards.

6. Guild Master: 20 free boosters per new set, FOR LIFE, to give out to your guild.

- 20 total per set, not 20 per guild member.

7. Dragon Lord and higher should inherit all these $250 perks. GK really shouldn't, but that would be tricky to handle since people would expect it. GK is already a good tier and adding all this stuff to it would make it way overpowered.

-=-=-=-

Ok, so none of these are overpowered, since the Pro tier still has the biggest benefit of all the $250 tiers with 12+ boosters per month, plus the draft play. Think about that, 12 boosters worth of cards per month for every set to ever release. That's why the Pro tier is gone.

Beef up these other $250 tiers and I think you'll see people begin grabbing them too.

LexC
05-21-2013, 07:19 AM
Ther's a lot of things you seem to want FOR LIFE

[EDIT] I'm guessing you are suggesting to have these addons exclusive to that tier? Otherwise the higher tiers that say "Everything for the previous tier, Plus ..." would be rather OP

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:21 AM
Ther's a lot of things you seem to want FOR LIFE

There are, but they don't apply to this kickstarter. ;)

I was just aping CZE's all caps in their tier descriptions.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

TheBlueMagician
05-21-2013, 07:22 AM
We already have a King Draft tier called Pro Player. Why would they screw over the people who put in $250 by introducing a tier that did the exact same thing for less money?

I like the DC and GM bonuses, though. Gives them a continuous perk that the others don't get. Those seem like they'd be worth considering, especially on the GM level. The difficult balancing act for DC is that we don't know how good the +100% loot gain is, whereas the +10% PvE experience is, well, underwhelming on its own.

Also, this topic has been made before, you really should have posted in one of the existing threads...

ShaolinRaven
05-21-2013, 07:25 AM
As per kickstarter rules


The only things that cannot be edited after launch are:

— The funding goal
— The project deadline
— Your Kickstarter name
— Rewards that have already been selected by a backer

So the only way they can change a tier for rewards is if everyone backs out of that tier. Or they add things through stretch goals.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:26 AM
As per kickstarter rules


The only things that cannot be edited after launch are:

— The funding goal
— The project deadline
— Your Kickstarter name
— Rewards that have already been selected by a backer

So the only way they can change a tier for rewards is if everyone backs out of that tier. Or they add things through stretch goals.

They can't change the descriptions on the side bar, but they can certainly add stuff to the tiers. They already have, as you know.

ShaolinRaven
05-21-2013, 07:29 AM
They can't change the descriptions on the side bar, but they can certainly add stuff to the tiers. They already have, as you know.

Yes, they just have to add them to stretch goals, and remember the way the tiers read currently is that the higher tiers get everything the lower tiers get. So not only would they have to add stretch goal bonuses to the lower tiers they would also have to make statement that it excludes higher tiers from that option OR they have to give them all to the higher tiers as well. Kind of defeats the purpose of making lower tiers more enticing if the higher tiers also still get all of it.

Digital_Aether
05-21-2013, 07:33 AM
How much do you want to bet TheBlueMagician that two more are made by the end of the day? It's always people's first couple days on the forum too.

Anyways, I think the 10% PvE experience is better than people give credit. Experience levels cards into foils (which should AH for more I would hope), and it levels up your main character (whose abilities are going to be very important, look at the warrior talents example), AND you need it to level up mercenaries. If you want to use the Cardboard Samurai to get extra cash the first few easy fights, switch to the dwarf who can make all your cards artifacts for fun shenanigans at a second try at a fight, and then swap out to Aethynia for some +10 health after losing that second time, that's 3 extra characters who all have 20 levels to get. And that's not even all the KS exclusive mercenaries alone. Foils + Mercs + Character levels across 6 classes and 8 races? I'm definitely thinking that GM's xp bonus will mean more once people see PvE.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:36 AM
Yes, they just have to add them to stretch goals, and remember the way the tiers read currently is that the higher tiers get everything the lower tiers get. So not only would they have to add stretch goal bonuses to the lower tiers they would also have to make statement that it excludes higher tiers from that option OR they have to give them all to the higher tiers as well. Kind of defeats the purpose of making lower tiers more enticing if the higher tiers also still get all of it.

Yes, I addressed this with #7 in the OP. I think adding stuff to DL and higher is fine since those upper tiers are undervalued for the cost. GK is the really the sticking point since it's already a good value. (Full disclosure: I'm a GK, so I'm arguing against my best interest.)

And I don't think they need a stretch goal to add benefits to the tiers. They can just come out and say: "Hey, were giving you more stuff, here it is." But yeah, building them into stretch goals likely makes more sense.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:38 AM
We already have a King Draft tier called Pro Player. Why would they screw over the people who put in $250 by introducing a tier that did the exact same thing for less money?

King Draft is not the same and Pro Player. Read it again.

Digital_Aether
05-21-2013, 07:40 AM
King Draft is not the same and Pro Player. Read it again.
It's the same thing. You just get less of them, but it's the same thing. Instead of one per week, you get one per month. Get 4 Draft kings for $660 and it's the same as getting a Pro + 3 Kings for $610. It's just re-opening a nerfed pro-tier to late comers.

TheBlueMagician
05-21-2013, 07:44 AM
King Draft is not the same and Pro Player. Read it again.

Noted. I still find it to be kind of a needless tier, since the drafting component is already a major part of one of the higher reward tiers. Plus, it would result in CZE losing more money in the long run, after already losing close to 2000 drafts a week.

It strikes me as the sort of thing where the reasoning behind it is "I missed the pro player tier, and would like free drafts," which doesn't cut it imo. Given how popular drafting has become, leaving the higher tiers the only way to get it is a great way to incentivize bumping up pledges to GK+ now.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:50 AM
It's the same thing. You just get less of them, but it's the same thing. Instead of one per week, you get one per month. Get 4 Draft kings for $660 and it's the same as getting a Pro + 3 Kings for $610. It's just re-opening a nerfed pro-tier to late comers.

Less of a thing does not equal the same thing. The tier combining fiasco is a problem, but water under the bridge. If someone wants to spend $660 to get the benefit of the $250 tier, then let them. There won't be many that do that, but there will be many that will spend a lesser amount to get one draft per month.

Listen, it all depends on if CZE is content at the current funding level. Once GK runs out, the daily tally is going to fall off a cliff. If they are okay with that, then nothing needs to be done.

I could take or leave my King Draft idea, mostly I would like to see the other $250 tiers beefed up a bit.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-21-2013, 07:54 AM
Any free drafts you add to a tier below Pro Player also adds more free drafts to Pro Player.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:57 AM
Noted. I still find it to be kind of a needless tier, since the drafting component is already a major part of one of the higher reward tiers. Plus, it would result in CZE losing more money in the long run, after already losing close to 2000 drafts a week.

This was my main concern with Pro Player from the start. There are going to be 2000 dedicated players that will buy less boosters (maybe significantly less) than they otherwise would have. If a set released every 4 months and players are able to draft from any set, then that will be 4 x 12 = 48 "free" boosters for each new set for Pro Players (not even rounding up for the odd weeks).

If a new tier gives players one draft a month, that's only 12 boosters for each new set.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 07:58 AM
Any free drafts you add to a tier below Pro Player also adds more free drafts to Pro Player.

Says who?

My King Draft proposal is a new tier. None of the higher tiers inherit from this new tier.

Mavian
05-21-2013, 08:01 AM
There's nothing really wrong with the King and lower tiers. I don't know why people want even more for less, the current lower tiers are fine and of sufficiently great value for the price especially when you factor in stretch goals. The biggest issue is and will be the disparity between the 250 tiers and the one that was easy to assess the pure dollar value of is unavailable. The only option would be to add through stretch goals or just saying they're updating those 250 tiers with some sort of calculable value. Yes, for all we know the Dungeon Crawler may turn into the best value in practical play, but there's no way to know that now or by the time the KS ends, so the only reasonable 250 tier that you could purchase and assure your monies worth is the Pro Tier.

Digital_Aether
05-21-2013, 08:02 AM
It's still the same benefit. People get a continual source of drafts to allow for a life-long bonus to cards, as well as a method to play a competitive mode casually. I don't think it would make sense to open any tier at a lower cost to get a continual card stream that lasts multi-sets. They could also launch a $650 GK tier for another set of slots, instead of an early bird, a slowpoke tier. A free draft a week pays for itself, it just depends on how long till it does. I think just pushing out more content and updates will make the $250 more attractive as is (especially with full pro, GK, DL, so less high end options). If you launched a slowpoke GK, and then boosted the less-loved $250 tiers, it would essentially balance out the value (though making the current GK crazy awesome, as if it wasn't enough).

Mushroom_C1oud
05-21-2013, 08:07 AM
I think people who have already pledged are too focused on the $250+ tiers. To bring in a bigger player base CZE should focus on the Squire through Champion tiers. This would also increase the value of the higher tiers as a secondary effect. I would rather see 40k+ pledgers in beta then 7k pledgers.

caffn8d
05-21-2013, 08:09 AM
It may be that people mined the Pro Tier for value. It may be that there really are 500+ folks that really REALLY like to play draft, and think they will play between 1 and 3 a week. Truthfully, we may never know unless CZE releases some stats on it after the fact. It's all speculation.

I love the idea of 1 free pack from each new set that is released for Squire tier and above. That's a fantastic idea for the big legendary stretch goal and a potential boost to retention in the future as well, as was previously stated.

demonanil
05-21-2013, 08:11 AM
The only thing i see that maybe should be more balanced would be the Supporter tier. At least give them 1 starter deck and 5 boosters. Which is half of what the squire tier gets. Half of 20$ is 10$. Yes they will not get the Lady Cassandra card, but 1 starter deck and 5 booster is fair. They are still pledging whatever money they can afford to pledge. Just getting a beta invite is kinda silly, i have played alot of mmo's and not once have i payed money just to get into a beta. These guys are pledging what little they have and should at least get a little something just like everyone else.

Mavian
05-21-2013, 08:13 AM
I think people who have already pledged are too focused on the $250+ tiers. To bring in a bigger player base CZE should focus on the Squire through Champion tiers. This would also increase the value of the higher tiers as a secondary effect. I would rather see 40k+ pledgers in beta then 7k pledgers.

Yes, but the issue is the lower tiers are already structured rather nicely. They give good perks for the price plus the add ons of the stretch goals. You can't just give away the farm to attract people, they're already doing that basically. The number of people pledging at the lower tiers shows they're a fairly decent value. But there's noticeable problems with the 250 tiers and the 2.5k+. There's many multi-Pro backers that would likely drop one or more of their pledges if there was a similar valued pack between 500-1000 or between 1k-2k.

This would then solve the issue, free up Pro tiers and almost everyone would be happy.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-21-2013, 08:14 AM
It may be that people mined the Pro Tier for value. It may be that there really are 500+ folks that really REALLY like to play draft, and think they will play between 1 and 3 a week. Truthfully, we may never know unless CZE releases some stats on it after the fact. It's all speculation.

I love the idea of 1 free pack from each new set that is released for Squire tier and above. That's a fantastic idea for the big legendary stretch goal and a potential boost to retention in the future as well, as was previously stated.

I like this idea, but I would up it to either 3 boosters from each new set so you can try a draft or 1 booster per month. Either way it won't flood the market, especially if they can get the player base in the 100,000s after the official release.

lord_simon3
05-21-2013, 08:17 AM
I understand where the OP is coming from. I am really only interested in the PvP aspect of the game. I came to this KS late and the two tiers with the best value are already gone. GK is more than I can spend. Now I understand I can still get King, but the early bird king is a significantly better value. Unless a Pro or EBK spot opens up I will probably only be pledging at the champion level or maybe less. This is especially frustrating with the multi-pledging that seems to be happening as instead of 250 unique people getting EBK, you have maybe 150 or so (just a random guess).

Daer
05-21-2013, 08:20 AM
I think the other 4 $250 tiers are the only ones that need anything added to them. A full playset of Collectors cards would be a good start, an extra death mark or a free treasure chest per week would help the Dungeon Crawler and Raidleader.

You don't really have to worry about Supporters since there are less then 100 of them, accounting for less than $1k of the total.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-21-2013, 08:26 AM
I think the other 4 $250 tiers are the only ones that need anything added to them. A full playset of Collectors cards would be a good start, an extra death mark or a free treasure chest per week would help the Dungeon Crawler and Raidleader.

You don't really have to worry about Supporters since there are less then 100 of them, accounting for less than $1k of the total.

If giving Supporters a few boosters and a starter brings more people in that wouldn't have pledged otherwise I think that it would be a good idea.

demonanil
05-21-2013, 08:38 AM
If giving Supporters a few boosters and a starter brings more people in that wouldn't have pledged otherwise I think that it would be a good idea.

Exactly, not everyone has alot of money like the hardcore tcg players. Our economy is still not that good. Some people want to help this project even if they can pledge at the lowest level. But all they get is a beta invite, that's not fair. Give them at least 1 Starter deck and 5 boosters. If that's to much then give them just 1 Starter deck and a beta invite.

kuvasza
05-21-2013, 08:40 AM
I think that tinkering with the donation rewards isn't really the answer.
At some point in the next day or two, GK will be gone and CZK will have locked up nearly all the PVP pledges. Then they need to shift to presenting the PVE content. They need to convince a few thousand fence-sitters that this is a *great game* and they want to donate to it to get in at King level, which already has phenomenal rewards for the donation. But the way they appeal to that group isn't left-brain. It's a different crowd. You're appealing to the explorers, the social players, the creatives. You want to show crafting. You want to show how the game can be customized. You want to show dungeons and raids and the ways that these players can do something on their own, at their own pace, without having to play PVP, more or less for free, and *have fun*. Challenges, puzzles (emphasis), social tools. Adding a pack is more or less irrelevant.

Just my 2 cents.

ringlord
05-21-2013, 08:48 AM
I think that tinkering with the donation rewards isn't really the answer.
At some point in the next day or two, GK will be gone and CZK will have locked up nearly all the PVP pledges. Then they need to shift to presenting the PVE content. They need to convince a few thousand fence-sitters that this is a *great game* and they want to donate to it to get in at King level, which already has phenomenal rewards for the donation. But the way they appeal to that group isn't left-brain. It's a different crowd. You're appealing to the explorers, the social players, the creatives. You want to show crafting. You want to show how the game can be customized. You want to show dungeons and raids and the ways that these players can do something on their own, at their own pace, without having to play PVP, more or less for free, and *have fun*. Challenges, puzzles (emphasis), social tools. Adding a pack is more or less irrelevant.

Just my 2 cents.

All excellent points. They really need to show off this other part of the game. Unfortunately, I think they haven't because that part of the game is not in a demo-able state yet. If so, then they need to mock up a bunch of screens to demonstrate what it will be like.

What will the experience be when going through a dungeon raid with other players? What will the screen look like? What will the mechanics be? How are loot drops handled?

There are tons of questions like this that need to be answered for those MMO players that might be interested in supporting.

Cry0
05-21-2013, 09:10 AM
I understand where the OP is coming from. I am really only interested in the PvP aspect of the game. I came to this KS late and the two tiers with the best value are already gone. GK is more than I can spend. Now I understand I can still get King, but the early bird king is a significantly better value. Unless a Pro or EBK spot opens up I will probably only be pledging at the champion level or maybe less. This is especially frustrating with the multi-pledging that seems to be happening as instead of 250 unique people getting EBK, you have maybe 150 or so (just a random guess).

I concur. The multi-pledging is a bit unfair. I would really like to get into the Early Bird King tier which is what I can only afford; the 120 King tier is too steep for me. :(

I'm still hoping though that I get someone frees up a slot, so I can back this project. The lower tiers isn't appealing to me. :(

Fireblast
05-21-2013, 09:10 AM
Tbh there's no point buffing the Supporter Tier, if you cannot afford $20 you shouldn't start playing a TCG

~

kuvasza
05-21-2013, 09:16 AM
@ringlord

completely agree. mock ups would help. So would FAQ's and answers to questions. Videos. Designer chat sessions. Torment had regular videos from authors, from developers, from many different areas of the business. Lots of good interaction on plans and early concept design, with the clear understanding that features may or may not get from drawing board to release.

There was a really good article recently, an interview with the Netflix CEO on how he restored the company from $60 to $220+ stock price after the Kwikster debacle, and his comment was that he focused on the core business, on delivering with excellence. He said that there were a lot of voices suggesting that they chase this or that shiny new thing, but that it was important to focus on the core business model and not get too distracted.

That said, this game is designed to have two sides, and to appeal to both PVE and PVP players, and inherently in that there different types of players. There's a lot of good questions to ask. Will they have chat rooms? Will there be RP chat rooms? What kind of social tools will they have? What kinds of player customization? How can players show flair? Can I do anything (add borders, add colors, add designs, add titles) to make my character or game stand out? Can you make a career just from crafting? Do you have to PVE or PVP? Standard MMORPG questions, spun in this environment.

GhundiPI
05-21-2013, 09:22 AM
A small buff to the Supporter tier would be interesting to those looking for the PvE experience only. But most would still pledge for one of the higher tiers, if only due to all the extras you could get with pledging at least at the Captain tier.

With what Cryptozoic already has at the moment they are already able to create a great game. And if the game really is that good, people will flock to it regardless. A game like League of Legends didn't start with their current huge player base either. There will be enough time for Hex to grow in the coming years.

Tyrfang
05-21-2013, 09:26 AM
MY LIFE FOR AIUR

The lower tiers are okay. At most, they need more KS exclusives, not more cards/benefits.

Fireblast
05-21-2013, 09:27 AM
The issue with this KS is that the game is so advanced that even with $10M CZE couldn't push the deadline or add that much stuff to it.

If people think 2 kings is better than those $250 tiers (other that Pro) then they'll settle for it.
As long as people play the game, I'm sure CZE is fine

~

Boojum
05-21-2013, 09:56 AM
I concur. The multi-pledging is a bit unfair. I would really like to get into the Early Bird King tier which is what I can only afford; the 120 King tier is too steep for me. :(

I'm still hoping though that I get someone frees up a slot, so I can back this project. The lower tiers isn't appealing to me. :(

I do agree that allowing pledge stacking was a bad idea, but you can't blame EBK being gone on that. It sold out on the first day, long before the stacking mania started.

And yeah, I agree that buffing the other $250 tiers would be nice, but the real necessity is showing a stronger, more detailed pitch for PvE content.

Cry0
05-21-2013, 10:08 AM
I do agree that allowing pledge stacking was a bad idea, but you can't blame EBK being gone on that. It sold out on the first day, long before the stacking mania started.

And yeah, I agree that buffing the other $250 tiers would be nice, but the real necessity is showing a stronger, more detailed pitch for PvE content.

Yes. They should have added more slots, not just 250 to give a least a chance to others who want to pledge a reasonable tier, given that they allowed that multi-pledging thingy. :(

Tyrfang
05-21-2013, 10:10 AM
Early Bird is meant to sell out quickly...

Digital_Aether
05-21-2013, 10:11 AM
The whole point of an "early bird" tier is that only the first supporters get it. Also, if you check often, it hasn't been that bad to get an EBK even just last night.

Cry0
05-21-2013, 10:12 AM
The whole point of an "early bird" tier is that only the first supporters get it. Also, if you check often, it hasn't been that bad to get an EBK even just last night.

Really? Glad to hear that! :) I'm hoping that I snipe one. :D

zifster
05-21-2013, 11:05 AM
Yeah EBKs are designed to be a quick infusion of cash to get the Project on the map. People don't want to back things that don't show good support from the get go, and it get's it into the various trending/popular categories on the site.