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jasta85
05-21-2013, 06:11 PM
So, I've been shooting questions to the Cryptozoic pretty much non stop since they started their kickstarter and got some interesting info regarding spectral lotus gardens.

1. you can own multiple spectral lotus gardens (either through grand king tier or higher, or if you get lucky enough to buy one on the auction house).

2. each garden will make a lotus each day you log on (if you own two gardens you get 2 lotus's a day)

3. you can sell the spectral lotus's (the 1 time use ones) on the auction house, and you can also buy black tigers and use them to make more spectral lotus's.

I can see players making a regular income simply selling their spectral lotus's on the auction house. Keep a couple saved up to use in case you want them for a raid or something and just sell the extras. if black tigers start flooding the marketplace at really cheap prices, buy them up, combine them into lotus's and sell those.

If you list the lotus's at relatively low prices I could see this being as a pretty good way to build up some money for future purchases.

And if you ever see a garden for sale on the AH you could buy it to increase your production output even further.

stephenhii
05-21-2013, 07:01 PM
Interesting but I don't think it will ever work simply because I believe there will be no simple flood, but tsunami. When supply > demand, it just doesn't work.

Vibraxus
05-21-2013, 07:05 PM
Lotus is king and up. King is unlimited.....that lotus wont be worth anything honestly.

Gwaer
05-21-2013, 07:07 PM
As the game continues forward that unlimited kickstarter number will be smaller and smaller, as people move on. There won't necessarily always be an overabundance

djlowballer
05-21-2013, 07:09 PM
Lotus won't become valuable unless the game really takes off and new blood far outnumbers backers at or above King. Should Hex survive 5 or so years and catch on then yeah you can probably subsidize your game as a florist or sell the gardens for massive gain.

Truhls
05-21-2013, 07:09 PM
Statistically speaking, less then 25% of the people who kickstart this game will still play HEX on any regular basis in a year.

Ebynfel
05-21-2013, 07:10 PM
it honestly depends on how popular the game becomes. If there are <10,000 Gardens available, then it could eventually work out if you stack Lotus for a very long time. However, I don't think it will ever get to such a point as it is seriously a means of income, and playing the game at a reduced/free cost. I do not believe that most will really ever need so many Lotus as to make that an issue.

I can see times when Lotus spike in price due to new, more difficult PVE content. However I doubt that will really be often enough for one to just make a living off of them. AS I will likely have 2 Gardens, it would be nice if I was wrong, though :)

Xenavire
05-21-2013, 07:10 PM
I have one question - did they mention being able to use the transformed tigers in decks? It is an assumption people have made, but it worries me a little - what if it is for that game only? I would like to run a playset in my PvE decks.

Tyrfang
05-21-2013, 07:11 PM
If it ever gets really bad, I can see people complaining "this game is too pay-to-win!" and they might create a card with similar effects.

Floru
05-21-2013, 07:12 PM
Maybe it'll be worth something small in a few years if a lot of KS users decide to leave for whatever reason and don't sell their account.

Gwaer
05-21-2013, 07:13 PM
I have one question - did they mention being able to use the transformed tigers in decks? It is an assumption people have made, but it worries me a little - what if it is for that game only? I would like to run a playset in my PvE decks.

Yes you can use the tigers in decks, but they'd be limited to the normal 4 cards per deck limit unless you have some way to bypass it.

Ebynfel
05-21-2013, 07:13 PM
I have one question - did they mention being able to use the transformed tigers in decks? It is an assumption people have made, but it worries me a little - what if it is for that game only? I would like to run a playset in my PvE decks.

They said that the tigers would be tradeable, so I had assumed, usable in decks. Especially considering that 4 of them can be turned back into a new Lotus with the gardens.

Genosaurer
05-21-2013, 07:14 PM
TCG's are always pay to win though....

Ebynfel
05-21-2013, 07:15 PM
Lotus is really only available in PVE. Meaning, yes they are convenient, but you're not competing, so does pay to win apply here?

dogmod
05-21-2013, 07:30 PM
The daily available # of lotuses assuming near perfect conversion of black tigers to lotuses and a total use of lotuses is a littler under 6,000... now if we end up with a very large playerbase and a playerbase that enjoys PvE (sounds like cryptozoic is going to ensure this) then 6,000 divvied up among a large playerbase may not be that much and may lead to a very good supply/demand dynamic... as it stands with pledge #s we already have less than 1 lotus per day per person... If you plan on doing PvE that may encourage you to grab a king account while you can

LeMazing
05-21-2013, 07:38 PM
Yes you can use the tigers in decks, but they'd be limited to the normal 4 cards per deck limit unless you have some way to bypass it. I wonder what system will be put in place to keep people from having 4 tigers and 4 lotuses and just building up >4 tigers through usage of the lotuses.

Gwaer
05-21-2013, 07:41 PM
I wonder what system will be put in place to keep people from having 4 tigers and 4 lotuses and just building up >4 tigers through usage of the lotuses.

It doesn't seem like there is one. You can only start the game with 4 copies of a card, but there are several mechanics that end up with more than that throughout the game. No way to know for sure yet though.

Ebynfel
05-21-2013, 07:44 PM
Too bad you can't replicate it and save the original yet.

fido_one
05-21-2013, 07:50 PM
... If there are <10,000 Gardens available, then it could eventually work out if you stack Lotus for a very long time. However, I don't think it will ever get to such a point as it is seriously a means of income, and playing the game at a reduced/free cost. ...I doubt that will really be often enough for one to just make a living off of them. ...

I agree with this, but some devil's advocate and slight push back for you as I waltz down a set of bullshit predictions: 10k number is a great estimate for total number of gardens, so let's work from that. We're probably only talking 5 or 6k users that have the gardens, rest are grand kings or double dippers. 1/3 of those users will let the game lapse after a year and not do a lot about it, a.k.a. they won't sell their accounts, they won't trade their gardens cause they can't come to grips they aren't playing anymore (if I bow out, I'd fall into this category, much as I hate to admit it). So let's say for sake of argument 3.5k garden users in active use at the end of year one.

1/2 of those will be using a large portion of it for PvE as it does seem to be a damn useful card (though we'll see, got to see the collection and other sets). Maybe a bit less? Fine. Let's say 2k garden users will be doing nothing but selling them or the equivalent of 2k users will be doing nothing but selling them.

At year one from beta, you're going to get maybe 500 people logging in on a daily basis to get their lotuses. To weigh in favor of people flooding the market, we'll say that the remaining 1.5k log in every other day. That's (1,500/2) + 500 * amount of average lotuses per account. Let's say 2 average lotuses per account at this stage.

Based on this total bullshit logic, that's 2,500 lotuses a day that flood the AH at the end of the first year. That's not a lot if the game catches on. It only goes down from that number as it's a diminishing resource. Don't look at the resell value of the lotus either as much as you should look at the resell value of how many lotuses you make over a period of time. I don't think I could get a booster for a lotus, in packs of 5 or 6 though? Yeah, maybe.

So yeah, all of the numbers here are laughable, but enter your own and flesh out the iterations - you're making a graph that slopes downwards pretty quickly as far as supply on what looks like and what is being billed by CZE as a damn, damn powerful card.

Kind of like what it was with the black lotus in MtG, right? Except this one is a wee bit more controlled so as to not break the whole game? It's been a long time since I played MtG but I am assuming this is a homage to that card.

Ebynfel
05-21-2013, 08:09 PM
In my particular post above, I do acknowledge that supply will come to a point in which they are hard to get. But will the powerful effect of the lotus be enough to demand such a reduction in cost in playing? It very well could. However, I ain't going to bank on it being my bread and butter in the game. I hope supply and demand gets to a point where I make a crapton off of the Gardens, but I'm just not ready to count on it yet.

In my BS number of 10k that I pulled out of the hind quarters(A high end I would think), it seems reasonable that the demand would eventually reach a point that the card would provide self sustainability, if the card in and of itself is viewed as worthwhile. Sure, it's epic and very powerful. But unlike the infamous Black Lotus of Magic, it goes away forever when you use it. It turns into a platinum paid consumable for PVE. Now, in the numbers fudged for now, are that many people going to be playing PVE?

I'll play it, I may even use a Lotus here or there, but I don't see them as a necessary piece of my PVE Arsenal, as I am not as hardcore into PVE as I am into PVP. Am I going to harvest my Lotus every chance I get? Yes. Am I going to use them? Not so much. I will save them for specific times or offload them after a bit, because I am in this for the PVP. That is not to say Cryptozoic can't change my mind.

In looking at the numbers, I do agree with Fido_one in that the numbers make it possible(Sorry, this is pretty much how I understood your post. If I'm wrong, feel free to let me know). But if they're actually in such a high demand or not, I believe, will remain to be seen. If one does hardcore PVE, then getting as many Lotus as possible makes sense. So, when we see more of the PVE side, we'll have a more accurate picture imho.

Sci3nce
05-21-2013, 08:56 PM
I'm not sure as popularity of the game rises, the # of KS players are going to drop. The % of KS to Non-KS players will get smaller, but I don't think the number of KS players will really see a large decrease until the popularity has already peaked, and is on the downswing. I could be wrong, but I can almost guarantee the PP tiers and GK tiers should never close. If I'm done playing the game I'm absolutely selling my PP account because it's still worth a whole lot of cash, especially if the popularity of the game is rising. Any smart king player will at minimum sell his garden before quitting. If the Spectral Lotus is going to be that strong then the gardens will most likely always be farmed for cards. If it's not, then we don't have to worry about this anyways.

I will point out that PvE is marketed towards the F2P players. Something you do if you don't want to pay money to play. All the PvE Cards are already unbalanced and none of the content will be balanced around using Spectral Lotus. So Spectral Lotus will just be a quality of life item to make an already easy game that much easier. Most PvE players will probably pass on paying $$ for and item that they don't even need to beat the game, especially if you can only use it 1 time. I think if a PvE player is going to spend $$ it's going to be on Legendary Gear or Foiled PvE Cards, not on a 1 time use card.

Deathfog
05-21-2013, 11:22 PM
Might be a must have for dungeonering, having 4 Lotus per run ready and however many you can sideboard. You don't have to use them up to get the benefits, but you can burn one for boost when the situation warrants. Could be a reasonably useful commodity in the game for doing harder PvE raids.

Assuming PvE is a serious draw to the game, these could be a readily renewable resource for active players. How much did the top tier guilds in Vanilla/BC WoW pay out every week in Lotus/flasks to be at the top of their game in cutting edge raids? Even if they only trade for say $0.50 in platinum a pop, that's a lot of potential long term currency flow for the relatively few King+ in this KS compared to the eventual player base if the game is as successful as everyone expects. Did anyone really put down $500 or more expecting this to just be a nitch game with 10k players that only lasts maybe 2 years?

MasterPlan
05-22-2013, 12:29 AM
I am pretty sure someone from CZE said they are really protective of the cards they are releasing for kickstarter and would not be looking to duplicate those in the future. The game market is huge, and if the game succeeds there will be a continuous influx of players. Given how long magic has been around they are still adding new users to this day. I will concede that magic today is not as popular as it was in its heyday but its making a strong showing and several of my old magic friends have gotten back into even after selling off their collections. What I am getting around to saying is the lotus garden will have value especially if the game has anykinda of longevity 5 years. I do not think you could quit your job and just sell lotuses though :)

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 12:35 AM
Where do you get the idea that Magic is not as popular as it was? From everything I hear, it's gaining more players, and selling more packs than ever before with each set release. Some of this has to do with how successful Duels of the Planeswalkers is as drawing people to the game, as well as the recent focus of thinking of flavor first starting with... 10th edition?

Deathfog
05-22-2013, 12:37 AM
Real question though, is a 20 pack of lotus worth enough platinum to buy a single pack of cards? What are people's honest opinions, a higher or lower ratio of lotus/boosters?

MasterPlan
05-22-2013, 12:44 AM
Where do you get the idea that Magic is not as popular as it was? From everything I hear, it's gaining more players, and selling more packs than ever before with each set release. Some of this has to do with how successful Duels of the Planeswalkers is as drawing people to the game, as well as the recent focus of thinking of flavor first starting with... 10th edition?
Was not the main part of my post, I am not as into the magic scene as I once was. Just going with my gut :). Sorry didn't mean to offend :)



Real question though, is a 20 pack of lotus worth enough platinum to buy a single pack of cards? What are people's honest opinions, a higher or lower ratio of lotus/boosters?
No idea till the market settles, It depends on how much the lotus's are being used in pve decks. If they are really really good people will be using them up more thus making supply on the AH more scarce. So my answers to early to tell.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 12:56 AM
I apologize too if it sounded like I was offended. Was just really confused because I haven't kept up with Magic as much as I used to, and that statement is counter to the last things I have heard about it.

As for the Lotuses, thinking they might reach 10 cents each (20 for a $2 booster) seems like something I could see happening. Someone else's suggestion of $0.50 a piece is much harder for me to imagine, but if Cryptozoic really is balancing the game so that these cards even reach the shadow of how powerful the Black Lotus is (and I can only assume the Spectral Tiger is), and if they've designed some truly difficult dungeons/raids I guess that could be possible as well, if the player base grows big enough.

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 03:39 AM
Spectral Lotus gotta be the best card in any TCG (except Epic :p).

If I was to play competitive PvE, I wouldn't mind paying $2 to get a playset.

~

katkillad
05-22-2013, 03:54 AM
There's going to be thousands of these generated every single day, I don't think they will have as much value as some people think. The actual Spectral Lotus Garden might just for rarity/collectors.

WSzaboPeter
05-22-2013, 04:02 AM
Imagine if you had a machine that prints you a Black Lotus MTG card (the card the Spectral Lotus pays homage to) each day.
I'm quite sure in 20 years the Spectral Lotus will be going for $10+ easily, if not more. And the cost of the Garden can be thousands.


For non Magic players: Black Lotus is currently unavailable but sells for $500-$6000
(depending on the condition, and if it's alpha, beta or unlimited).
The card was last printed before December 1993 (release of the Unlimited).

katkillad
05-22-2013, 04:05 AM
Nobody is going to pay $10 dollars for a one time use card. If this game gets as popular as Magic, I agree the Garden will have value but I think you are going to be disappointed by your estimates.

WSzaboPeter
05-22-2013, 04:37 AM
Nobody is going to pay $10 dollars for a one time use card. If this game gets as popular as Magic, I agree the Garden will have value but I think you are going to be disappointed by your estimates.

Black Lotus is banned in all played formats (including Legacy). You can argue, that someone can play up to 1 copy in a Vintage deck, but Vintage tournaments are once a year tops, if any.

In 20 years $10 will worth a lot less, than now (as it was the case for $10 20 years ago.), on the other hand they will not make any new Lotus Gardens, so the number of those will diminish in 20 years to almost nothing.

But let's come back to this discussion 20yrs from now. :)

Hieronymous
05-22-2013, 05:04 AM
The Spectral Lotus will never be a $10 card, though the garden might well be crazy valuable.

The real value of the lotus is that it's a 0-cost artifact that lets you instantly replace it when cast, so four of them in your deck lets you effectively lower your PvE deck to 56 cards. People are always going to want that.

Fateanomaly
05-22-2013, 05:12 AM
Indeed, i can't really find any reasons not to put it every pve deck. Just putting it for its self replacing ability will be good enough even if you do not use its actual ability.

caffn8d
05-22-2013, 05:15 AM
Sell them? Hell, I'll be lucky if I can create enough to stay ahead of my own usage of them with the 2 I have. Not to mention supplying my friends with them before we take on a raid.

Grayspark
05-22-2013, 05:22 AM
Hey, I'm unsure if Crypto won't put a limit to the number of Spectral Lotuses that you can have.
So for an instance, if you already have 2 gardens, and you are idle, say for a vacation, for 2 months -- won't you collect 60 lotuses? And if it's for a year, won't you collect 731 lotuses? Who is going to use all of those cards? Even if you are going to put 4 on your deck, it will take around 250 game to get them converted to tigers (assuming that one game won't consume all 4 lotuses at once).

katkillad
05-22-2013, 05:23 AM
Pretty sure the card specifies "each day you logon", so no they don't really work that way.

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 05:30 AM
You gotta click it on a daily basis to have the Spectral Lotus pop.

~

Grayspark
05-22-2013, 05:31 AM
Pretty sure the card specifies "each day you logon", so no they don't really work that way.

Ah, silly me -- I was thinking the wrong idea all this time.
Thanks dude...

TheWackyWombat
05-22-2013, 05:36 AM
I'm kind of with caffn8d on this, I somehow doubt lotuses will 'Flood' the market, but I also doubt they'll be huge sellers either. Since they're single use I expect a fair number of people (myself included) will horde their Lotuses on the chance that they become the corner stone of a deck strat. Those that missed out may try it once or twice, but the majority will probably just move on and use other cards.

Honestly, if you didn't have a garden would you keep shelling out for a card that needed to be replaced EVERY time you played a deck, or would you find something else to use and put that in game currency to a better use?

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 05:45 AM
I'm kind of with caffn8d on this, I somehow doubt lotuses will 'Flood' the market, but I also doubt they'll be huge sellers either. Since they're single use I expect a fair number of people (myself included) will horde their Lotuses on the chance that they become the corner stone of a deck strat. Those that missed out may try it once or twice, but the majority will probably just move on and use other cards.

Honestly, if you didn't have a garden would you keep shelling out for a card that needed to be replaced EVERY time you played a deck, or would you find something else to use and put that in game currency to a better use?

It's replaced everytime you USE it, not everytime you PLAY it.

Since it replaces itself it's good to play a 56 cards deck (cheating the odds) and it's great in a deck with bonuses when you have artifacts in play (dwarves...)

~

RobHaven
05-22-2013, 05:52 AM
I just checked, and there are a total of 250 early kings, 951 kings, 35 collectors, 9 raid leaders, 91 dungeon crawlers, 1000 pro players, 1000 grand kings, 50 dragon lords, 2 primals, 1 immortal, and 2 producers...plus X kings signed up through Pay Pal. That means the number of Lotus Gardens coming out are
250 + 951 + 35 x 2 + 9 + 91 + 1000 + 1000 x 2 + 50 x 2 + 2 x 2 + 1 x 2 + 2 x 2 + X
=
250 + 951 + 70 + 9 + 91 + 1000 + 2000 + 100 + 4 + 2 + 4 + X
=
4481 + X

There is a maximum daily output of roughly 5,000 lotuses per day. There are currently 6,681 backers just on KickStarter. You're talking about less than a lotus per person. Now consider how many will be getting used as gamers devour the PvE content at launch. For each 4 Lotuses consumed, only 1 is produced. Every 4 days, you'll have another 1,250 (maximum) Lotuses coming into existence. This could kind of snowball - on day 4, you'll have 5 Lotuses produced; on day 16 you'd have 21 produced; and on day 64 you'd have 85 produced.

Realistically - as so many have pointed out - how many people are going to log in daily? How many King+ backers are going to stay with it two years from now? How many individuals are producing more than 1 lotus a day? (I know I'm personally producing 6.) There's a lot to consider when trying to figure out FMV, but I think it's a fool's errand. You're much better off waiting for launch and watching the AH.

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 05:56 AM
What we don't know is how much will the gold and gear be worth.
If those values are high and Spectral Lotus really helps to farm those, that'll up the rate at which they are consumed.

I'd spend $2 easily (4* $0.5 lotus) if I know I'll get $10 worth of loot.

I'm hoping that not everyone will be able to farm the high end dungeons/raids at release!

~

RobHaven
05-22-2013, 05:56 AM
It's replaced everytime you USE it, not everytime you PLAY it.

Since it replaces itself it's good to play a 56 cards deck (cheating the odds) and it's great in a deck with bonuses when you have artifacts in play (dwarves...)

~

Both the Tiger and the Lotus let you draw a card, and the Lotus pays for the Tiger. It's...it's a ridiculous card. Assuming you use the Lotus to pay for the Tiger, you're getting a 3/1 troop and two drawn cards at no cost to yourself.

maniza
05-22-2013, 06:06 AM
if this game becomes popular, in five years any ks account card would be worth 100s of dollars lets hope that happen. better yet lets make that happen

TheWackyWombat
05-22-2013, 06:23 AM
It's replaced everytime you USE it, not everytime you PLAY it.

Since it replaces itself it's good to play a 56 cards deck (cheating the odds) and it's great in a deck with bonuses when you have artifacts in play (dwarves...)

~

Even if you only had one in your deck, and it only came up every three or four games, you're still going through two to three lotuses every ten games. The tiger is fine, but it's really there as a filler card for when you consume a lotus.

My point was that most players will probably try it once or twice then probably pickup something more sustainable. The lotus is a good card, but it's not really worth spending your currency on it every day when you don't have an unlimited supply.

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 07:55 AM
My point was that most players will probably try it once or twice then probably pickup something more sustainable. The lotus is a good card, but it's not really worth spending your currency on it every day when you don't have an unlimited supply.

Here's how I see it going down.

There are roughly four use cases for the spectral lotus:

1. deck size reducer (zero cost draw a card) every serious PvE deck will want to run 4 just for this. Note this does not consume the lotus so even at a high price it still makes sense to have 4 of them.

2. manna accelerator. 3 free temporary resource and a threshold increase. That will be really useful for anyone trying to clear dungeons quickly. However it consumes the lotus so buying lotuses for this use case only makes sense if they're cheap.

3. emergency tiger and card draw to get out of a tight spot. The lotus pays for the tiger and the tiger grants a card draw, is potentially a life drainer and potentially buffs your other troops. If you run 4 of the tigers normally this could be a fairly valuable use. Since the lotus is consumed but you don't plan on doing this often you could buy the lotuses at a moderate piece.

4. free artifact for artifact synergy decks. This use case does not consume the lotus so like using it as a deck size reducer even at a high price some decks will want them.

Now, the insidious thing about the lotus, is that if you start out thinking you'll buy 4 and never consume them, then you find yourself shot manna or in a spot where a 3/1 could win you the game... well, I'm sure there's a Fridley gardener who'll sell you another one.

Long story short, I'd bet that lotuses will be low cost at release and will grow to about the cost of a staple uncommon over time (as the numebr of active gardens shrinks relative to the size of the player base). Also the tigers will have a lower price bound of 1/4 the cost of a lotus as any listed below that will get scooped by someone with a garden and reisted as lotuses.

fido_one
05-22-2013, 11:23 AM
There's a lot to consider when trying to figure out FMV, but I think it's a fool's errand. You're much better off waiting for launch and watching the AH.

Your math there is totally sound - and I think it is a fool's errand, but that's what we are signing up for: This is the primary reason why this kickstarter has such amazing double dippers and backing is that we're applying the same logic to the rewards as we do with making decks. I'll think all day about deck construction, won't know how well it will work until I get it into play, and that's a lot of the fun [for me at least].

Vibraxus
05-22-2013, 11:39 AM
Spectral Lotus gotta be the best card in any TCG (except Epic :p).

If I was to play competitive PvE, I wouldn't mind paying $2 to get a playset.

~

Talk to me 2 days after game launch. I can hold off using it in PVE for a few days. :)

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 11:44 AM
Talk to me 2 days after game launch. I can hold off using it in PVE for a few days. :)

I'll produce 4 to 6 on a daily basis (if I get my Collector as 4th account merger) but thanks for the offer.

~

Vibraxus
05-22-2013, 12:23 PM
I'll produce 4 to 6 on a daily basis (if I get my Collector as 4th account merger) but thanks for the offer.

~

LOL my grand plan foiled!

Kenshin
05-22-2013, 12:45 PM
3. you can sell the spectral lotus's (the 1 time use ones) on the auction house, and you can also buy black tigers and use them to make more spectral lotus's.

Sorry if this is already answered someplace else, but where did you guys read that black tigers can be converted into more spectral lotuses? By reading the cards, it seems to me that only the Spectral Lotus Garden will give a copy of Spectral Lotus, that once it gets in play will permanently transform into a Black Tiger..did a developer mention something I missed regarding that?

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 12:46 PM
Yes, someone mentioned somewhere that anyone with a lotus garden could turn 4 tigers into a lotus card

Daer
05-22-2013, 12:47 PM
Oh, and as far as the Black Tiger goes, he’s a pretty reasonable bloke himself, but what are you gonna do with all those? Well, your Spectral Garden will always let you convert four of them into a brand new Spectral Lotus.

http://hextcg.com/rewards/#king

Kenshin
05-22-2013, 12:51 PM
Ok, I read it now, thanks for the replies. However there's no mention of such a conversion on either the Garden, the Lotus or the Tiger, just on the "side notes" regarding rewards provided by the devs...I guess it will be in the Forge section? Dunno. Thanks though.

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 12:56 PM
Sorry if this is already answered someplace else, but where did you guys read that black tigers can be converted into more spectral lotuses? By reading the cards, it seems to me that only the Spectral Lotus Garden will give a copy of Spectral Lotus, that once it gets in play will permanently transform into a Black Tiger..did a developer mention something I missed regarding that?

In the rewards section of the Hex website it says that a lotus garden can turn 4 black tigers into a new spectral lotus.

Emitan
05-22-2013, 06:26 PM
Can someone explain why the lotus is a "deck size reducer"?

Lochar
05-22-2013, 06:28 PM
Can someone explain why the lotus is a "deck size reducer"?

It's a 0 cost Artifact, which means you can play it automatically. It's benefit, even without turning it into a Black Tiger, is to draw a card.

So if you draw it, you immediately get another card. Thereby 'reducing' your deck size for free.

Boojum
05-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Can someone explain why the lotus is a "deck size reducer"?

You play four of them in a deck. Every time you draw one, you immediately play it and draw a card, replacing itself without expending any cards or resources. By doing that, you are slightly more likely to draw the remaining 56 cards in your deck, making your deck a bit more consistent.

Emitan
05-22-2013, 06:34 PM
You play four of them in a deck. Every time you draw one, you immediately play it and draw a card, replacing itself without expending any cards or resources. By doing that, you are slightly more likely to draw the remaining 56 cards in your deck, making your deck a bit more consistent.
Ah, okay. I thought people meant it reduced the amount of cards you put in your deck which didn't make any sense to me.

stephenhii
05-22-2013, 06:46 PM
Not literally, but it creates

i) resource acceleration bypassing thresholds
ii) card advantage/deck optimization
iii) board advantage w/ black tiger

thereck
05-22-2013, 10:16 PM
if you check out how most f2p's are run, mainly pointing to the rate at which people can trade gear for real word purchasable currency, you can probably bet that you'll net at least a pack per week per lotus garden.

having been a hard core mmo raider; I'll also note that if the raids are hard enough, these will be required by serious raid guilds. full consumables are pretty standard for these type of players to save time and up looting chances.

MrCwis
05-23-2013, 01:57 PM
And if any PVPs that want a quick buck they can sell there gardens on the AH since it's a card and not and ability, I'll most likely be keeping an eye out for any that pop up for sale.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:01 PM
And if any PVPs that want a quick buck they can sell there gardens on the AH since it's a card and not and ability, I'll most likely be keeping an eye out for any that pop up for sale.

I have a feeling a lot of us will be grabbing these when they become available.

Deathfog
05-23-2013, 02:09 PM
If you are really greedy, stack up the Kings right now. $120 for 150 + stretch packs lots of exclusive cards and a Spectral Lotus Garden. If there is a viable grey market for platinum to cash eventually, just sit on these for a few months and liquidate to platinum when the price is high enough. Kinda surprised there haven't been more Kings sold just for speculative ventures, guess being unlimited gives you some time to consider it.

Got 2 Pros, I'll probably slip and get another 2 kings before the deadline.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
If you are really greedy, stack up the Kings right now. $120 for 150 + stretch packs lots of exclusive cards and a Spectral Lotus Garden. If there is a viable grey market for platinum to cash eventually, just sit on these for a few months and liquidate to platinum when the price is high enough. Kinda surprised there haven't been more Kings sold just for speculative ventures, guess being unlimited gives you some time to consider it.

Got 2 Pros, I'll probably slip and get another 2 kings before the deadline.

I ended up swinging for another Kings, but the garden was only a small part of why I did it. Part of me actually did it because I wanted to do my part to reach the 1.5 million, and part of me did it simply to have a surplus of packs to sit on for ages.

caffn8d
05-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Depending on how things look for PvE during the next week and a half, I might grab another King. But yeah... I'm in no hurry.