PDA

View Full Version : Double Dipping



MrCwis
05-22-2013, 10:51 AM
Okay, so I'll probably get some backlash from this post but I think it needs to be said now.

I've seen a couple threads of people asking if Pro player or Grand king will become open again and the answer is No, most likely not and your best hope is to f5 the donation page in hopes that someone drops. This is because a number of players have bought several copies of Grand King and Pro Player for themselves and cryptozic has said that they will merge these accounts into one, so that each player who has done this will get multiple free drafts, as this is the most sought after perk.

I think this was a terrible idea on cryptozoics part, yes it made us break the stretch goals really quickly but now people aren't contributing because these to tiers are full. While some of these people will contribute at the king level or one of the other $250s some aren't and those that aren't are probably likely not to join the game at the beginning if ever.

I really think cryptozic should have said one tier per account and stopped this doubling up from the beginning, it would have been slower but I'm sure we would have gotten there eventually anyways.



Yes, I'm probably exagerating a bit about people not joing the game, but it's been said that none of the other tiers interest people and they aren't going to back it, but might check it out when the game is released.

If people really wanted extra drafts then in my opinion it should have been offered as an add-on as many other Kickstarters offer add-on in addition to the tier rewards.

What do you guys think?

KingBlackstone
05-22-2013, 10:54 AM
I think CZE made over a million dollars and the event isn't half over.
I think their methods worked out fine. :)

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 10:55 AM
I think double dipping was probably not great. I went ahead and did it anyway once they gave their blessing though... Also I've been posting for people that missed out how to snipe tiers that are sold out when people move out of them. I'll post it one more time.


Since I've already snagged all the tiers I want, I will tell you the secret of getting them. Download chrome, search for the chrome extension auto refresh plus, set that up to refresh the page every 1 second, and go to settings, check the box that says alert if text found, pledge 250$ on any 250 tier (if you want pvp), then go to the manage pledge area click the auto refresh plus icon, and in the search bar type in 1 of 913 then click start. it will automatically refresh the page, then play a tone when that is found. click pvp, and click change pledge. Done.

if you want grand king, change your pledge amount to 500 and pick any option, save that, go back to manage pledge and put in 1 of 959 in the search instead.

houjix
05-22-2013, 11:00 AM
I think it was an honest mistake in trying to accomodate 1 person who wanted to maximize their "donation" that snowballed to where we are today. It would be nice if all of those tiers were bought by unique individuals as it would lead to potentially more players in the long run. People that have stacked 2 I don't really have a problem with, but those that have grabbed 3, 4 or even more are kind of ridiculous. I know some are planning on spreading them out to friends, but many clearly were just trying to maximize their "donation".

That being said, the King tier is still a pretty darn good value, and depending on you game focus, Dungeon crawler or Collector aren't horrible.

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 11:00 AM
I think Hindsight is 20/20.

CZE probably should have said no to merging accounts. However at the time they answered the question they didn't realize the extent to which the community would game the system.

I also think that the community is misvaluing the $250 tiers (mostly under valuing Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader, and over valuing Pro Player) and looking at the draft/week as "free cards" which is not strictly wrong but also not completely accurate.

Short of adding a new pledge level there isn;t much they can do to fix any of this now (they've made official statements that accounts can be merged, and Kickstarted doesn't let you change pledge levels that have people pledging them).

Diplo
05-22-2013, 11:02 AM
Still doubel dipping is one thing, CZE is allowing quad dipping... Some of us weren't as fast with the browser refreshes :P

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 11:08 AM
The thing is that it's appreciated that Cryptozoic is keeping their word. Maybe it wasn't thought through as completely when the first request was made, but by keeping their word, it does give me more confidence that they will stick to the spirit of their other promises.

Googolplex
05-22-2013, 11:10 AM
Honestly, only the 'Early Bird King' disappeared fast, people had more than a week after the Kickstarter started to get what they wanted.

Yes, some people double-dipped, some even got 3-4 Tiers (I persoanlly just wanted one), and while is might have been more fair to spread the Tiers, I hope they don't change anything.

If people don't wanna play the game unless they get the exact Tier they wanted, well, so be it. I am honestly so tired of people whining whenever they cannot get what they want.

Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes not, deal with it.

Simokon
05-22-2013, 11:13 AM
just wait I am sure some of you will be able to purchase pro tiers down the line for the bargain price of 350 dollars or so. :D

jai151
05-22-2013, 11:13 AM
While fewer people got the higher tiers than would otherwise, I think assuming that those who would have but were too late will just skip the game all together is a bit alarmist.

I think most, if not all, of those players picked up one of the lower tiers just to get into the beta if nothing else.

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 11:15 AM
If people don't wanna play the game unless they get the exact Tier they wanted, well, so be it. I am honestly so tired of people whining whenever they cannot get what they want.


The concern is more that people are not pledging because they can't get the exact rewards they want. That means less change of hitting that last stretch goal, and less cash invested in making the game better.

But on the whole I have to say King is a pretty good value and is unlimited, and really at this point CZE doesn't need to bend over backwards to get more pledges, they're already well above their original target.

KingBlackstone
05-22-2013, 11:16 AM
I think Hindsight is 20/20.

CZE probably should have said no to merging accounts. However at the time they answered the question they didn't realize the extent to which the community would game the system.

I also think that the community is misvaluing the $250 tiers (mostly under valuing Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader, and over valuing Pro Player) and looking at the draft/week as "free cards" which is not strictly wrong but also not completely accurate.

Short of adding a new pledge level there isn;t much they can do to fix any of this now (they've made official statements that accounts can be merged, and Kickstarted doesn't let you change pledge levels that have people pledging them).

I could maybe see the benefit of Dungeon Crawler if -all- you do is PvE and nothing else. Even then, Pro Player benefits people who will only ever PvE too, by giving weekly free cards.

Assuming you'll only ever play PvE content, why would you choose Raid Leader over Dungeon Crawler? It's the same amount of money for a worse perk.

jai151
05-22-2013, 11:17 AM
The concern is more that people are not pledging because they can't get the exact rewards they want. That means less change of hitting that last stretch goal, and less cash invested in making the game better.

But on the whole I have to say King is a pretty good value and is unlimited, and really at this point CZE doesn't need to bend over backwards to get more pledges, they're already well above their original target.

Since the rewards are limited, that's a silly concern. The end dollar total would be identical.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 11:20 AM
Since the rewards are limited, that's a silly concern. The end dollar total would be identical.

The issue really is backer numbers, more people at a certain point is better for the game than more money.

Hibbert
05-22-2013, 11:22 AM
One bright point for CZE concerning the double and quad stackers is that those people will likely be VERY loyal to the game. They are also the type of people that have plenty of disposable income to drop on future sets. While I think more total backers probably would have been better than stacking, it's not all bad.

Given the huge popularity of the "one free draft a week" perk, I hope CZE thinks about making it available in some way again in the future. They need to monitor the card economy a bit, and ensure a few more free drafts wouldn't damage anything. Then offer it as a prize in a tournament, or maybe even as an auction. They'd probably need to limit these new ones to one year, or the life of one block of sets.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 11:22 AM
The concern is more that people are not pledging because they can't get the exact rewards they want. That means less change of hitting that last stretch goal, and less cash invested in making the game better.

But on the whole I have to say King is a pretty good value and is unlimited, and really at this point CZE doesn't need to bend over backwards to get more pledges, they're already well above their original target.

I'd go so far as to say King has insane value. It only has "good" value when compared to some of the other tiers, especially Pro. My mind couldn't believe the value in each of the tiers as I read them starting from Squire/Warrior on down, and it only just kept on getting better and better the further I read.

With that said, adding various subscription levels that people can sign up for even after the game launches would be nice to see. Good value for everyone to enjoy after the game launches. The one they already have is nice, and despite getting multiple Grand Kings, I'll probably still subscribe.

MrCwis
05-22-2013, 11:23 AM
Since the rewards are limited, that's a silly concern. The end dollar total would be identical.

Don't get me wrong I'm not whining I got my GK a while ago, so I'm good.

But if they had offered an add-on it wouldn't be the same dollar total, you would get the 1000 pp the 1000 GK, plus a lot of free draft add-ons that would have bumped up the total. But hindsight 20/20 and all that.

maniza
05-22-2013, 11:25 AM
I think alot of people who got 2 or 3 accounts will try to sell them after the ks is over i know its not stacking but its still an issue

papalorax
05-22-2013, 11:26 AM
I am sure CZE is not sitting back thinking about their KS mistakes...at least I hope not. $1.2M in 15 days...awesome.

jai151
05-22-2013, 11:26 AM
Don't get me wrong I'm not whining I got my GK a while ago, so I'm good.

But if they had offered an add-on it wouldn't be the same dollar total, you would get the 1000 pp the 1000 GK, plus a lot of free draft add-ons that would have bumped up the total. But hindsight 20/20 and all that.

They limited the free drafts for life for a very good reason.

That's a TON of free product.

As an addon, you'd wind up with a huge frontload of money and then a much lower income over time.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 11:27 AM
I think alot of people who got 2 or 3 accounts will try to sell them after the ks is over i know its not stacking but its still an issue

That would have been a much bigger concern if stacking wasn't available.

Diplo
05-22-2013, 11:28 AM
It is what it is, but I agree, it would have been nicer if more people had a chance at getting the tiers they wanted. Not everyone hears about a ks campaign right away. As @Hibbert pointed out, you now have some very devout community members, at the expense of of potentially having an even larger community (of course speculative). Anyways, we're all going to be forgetting abotu all these perks by the time the third set comes out (except perhaps for those with lifetime drafts).

LexC
05-22-2013, 11:30 AM
King has a very good value, that's exactly why I picked up 3 of them lol and I will still be subscribing.

Don't know about a huge ammount of disposable income, I certainly do not have much to spend, however it's a TCG, who doesn't expect to drop a lot of money on a TCG? In the long run the boosters alone would have cost me a lot more if I didn't pledge on KS, you know it makes sense to get it now while it's reduced

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 11:33 AM
I could maybe see the benefit of Dungeon Crawler if -all- you do is PvE and nothing else. Even then, Pro Player benefits people who will only ever PvE too, by giving weekly free cards.

Assuming you'll only ever play PvE content, why would you choose Raid Leader over Dungeon Crawler? It's the same amount of money for a worse perk.

Sigh...

No. The free draft/week is not free cards every week. It's a free draft. You need to enter the draft in order to get the cards. If you don't like drafts, that's an annoying waste of time. Furthermore drafts only give you PvP cards, which are looking to be more more common in circulation and thus have less resale value than PvE cards which are not being give out as freely by the kickstarter.

Dungeon crawler gives double loot, which means double gold, double gear, and double PvE cards from dungeon bosses. Furthermore since it's not capped on usage rate the amount of benefit you get is directly proportionate to how much you play. Selling the extra loot will likely exceed the income from the free draft per week unless you reliably win your drafts.

Raid Leader, is not an income generating tier, but instead the perk makes everyone in your raid group stronger. This means that you'll have an advantage competing for achievements, and you'll have an easier time getting into PvE guilds, as well as finding pick up raid groups. What's more you can't ever get this tier's perk except by contributing to the kickstarter (or buying out an account from someone who did on the "black market").

How valuable those tiers are toy you personally varies based on what you want to do. But they way the community talks about it pro player is the only tier worth pledging and everything else is less valuable than an equivalent dollar value of kings.

MrCwis
05-22-2013, 11:41 AM
How valuable those tiers are toy you personally varies based on what you want to do. But they way the community talks about it pro player is the only tier worth pledging and everything else is less valuable than an equivalent dollar value of kings.

This is very true but I think this is because the community right now is very PVP oriented, I got the GK because I plan on playing PVE and all the buffs are awesome, I also enjoy PVP so while i won't be getting the full value of a free draft every week it'll be an enjoyable change of pace from raids. each of the $250 tiers are well valued for the person they are designed for.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:45 AM
It's kind of bullshit for people to hog all the higher tiers. More so when most of the lower tiers are complete crap.

YouMustChoose
05-22-2013, 11:45 AM
I'm inclined to agree that the pro tier is not necessarily "better" than the other tiers in the set. The only tier that seems lackluster is the guildmaster tier and even then it depends because the guildmaster will help get friends into the game.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 11:46 AM
Sigh...

No. The free draft/week is not free cards every week. It's a free draft. You need to enter the draft in order to get the cards. If you don't like drafts, that's an annoying waste of time. Furthermore drafts only give you PvP cards, which are looking to be more more common in circulation and thus have less resale value than PvE cards which are not being give out as freely by the kickstarter.

Dungeon crawler gives double loot, which means double gold, double gear, and double PvE cards from dungeon bosses. Furthermore since it's not capped on usage rate the amount of benefit you get is directly proportionate to how much you play. Selling the extra loot will likely exceed the income from the free draft per week unless you reliably win your drafts.

Your post has a very clear focus on the Set 1 & PvE side of things.

But further down the line, if Hex follows anything similar to other F2P games, there will be more F2P players than there are PvP players (It's hard to say because a TCG isn't your typical micro transaction model for a F2P game, and is rather has it's own, accepted, revenue model that isn't viewed as a micro transaction.) I'm not positive about that, but I'd say it's more likely than not. And while there will still be a slight influx of Set 2 packs when that set is released, Set 3 and beyond won't have that. If you're looking at the long term you need to ignore the free packs because they become a non-issue when considering the overall value of the tiers. The rarity between the two types of cards (PvE and PvP) and value of the items/cards on either side is going to greatly depend on how popular each format is. The PvE side is going to have to be vastly more popular than the PvP side since only a small percentage of people in a F2P game actually spend money, or the drops are going to have to be extremely difficult and rare for the PvE cards to match the PvP cards in value.

And just because it might be annoying doesn't mean people are not getting free cards with their draft. They absolutely are. Some people are even signing up not sure they'll like the draft format. However if they still end up liking the constructed format, or just want to see cards in the AH, the free drafts are absolutely free cards to them, regardless of how annoying or not it is to other people.

Daer
05-22-2013, 11:46 AM
It's kind of bullshit for people to hog all the higher tiers. More so when most of the lower tiers are complete crap.

The lower tiers aren't complete crap, they are all pretty good, with the King tier being maybe the 3rd best tier of all.

There is no need to be upset.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:46 AM
I'm inclined to agree that the pro tier is not necessarily "better" than the other tiers in the set. The only tier that seems lackluster is the guildmaster tier and even then it depends because the guildmaster will help get friends into the game.

The pro tier is better than the other equivalents and lower because of the free draft in addition to being VIP. You're getting a lot of newer cards.

KingBlackstone
05-22-2013, 11:47 AM
Even if I wasn't interested in playing out the drafts, rare drafting takes like no time. You can leave immediately after you get your cards. How is that not the same as getting cards for free? :p

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 11:48 AM
If there was no merging, people would create X accounts and switch to those secondary ones to draft each week and send the boosters/cards to the main account.

It's boring for everyone.

The real issue is that Higher Tiers aren't as good as stacking lower ones.

If Primal was good, people wouldn't go for 4 GK...

~

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:51 AM
If there was no merging, people would create X accounts and switch to those secondary ones to draft each week and send the boosters/cards to the main account.

It's boring for everyone.

The real issue is that Higher Tiers aren't as good as stacking lower ones.

If Primal was good, people wouldn't go for 4 GK...

~

higher tiers aren't as good as stacking lower ones because you're not supposed to stack in the first place.

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 11:52 AM
higher tiers aren't as good as stacking lower ones because you're not supposed to stack in the first place.

F2P means you can have as many accounts as you want, so they always stacked, it just was boring for everyone to do so before they offered to merge.

~

Turtlewing
05-22-2013, 11:54 AM
If there was no merging, people would create X accounts and switch to those secondary ones to draft each week and send the boosters/cards to the main account.

It's boring for everyone.

The real issue is that Higher Tiers aren't as good as stacking lower ones.

If Primal was good, people wouldn't go for 4 GK...

~

Some people would, but there's a level of inconvinience (and risk of account bans if the ToS prohibits that behavior) that having the accounts merged alleviates. I'd bet that half the multi- pledgers would not multi- pledge if the accounts had to remain separate.

Fireblast
05-22-2013, 11:59 AM
It's better this way, if people had bought 4 PP on 4 different accounts, they'd just notice that PvE and Constructed takes so much time that they cannot draft and would sell the account on Ebay for $500.

I'd rather have them a merged account that they'll keep and play with.

~

Ashenor
05-22-2013, 12:03 PM
I like the pro tier :)

KingBlackstone
05-22-2013, 12:29 PM
Some people would, but there's a level of inconvinience (and risk of account bans if the ToS prohibits that behavior) that having the accounts merged alleviates. I'd bet that half the multi- pledgers would not multi- pledge if the accounts had to remain separate.

They paid $250 for each drafting account, Mr. Ruleshark. <3

keldrin
06-07-2013, 12:44 AM
actually, I like the idea of a subscription plan. Where you pay for a weekly draft on a per 6 months or per year basis. They could offer that at some kind of discount versus pay per draft cost. It would lock people in to the game for a set time period. Would guarantee money. And Help guarantee more people active in the draft events.

yamblaza
06-07-2013, 01:45 AM
actually, I like the idea of a subscription plan. Where you pay for a weekly draft on a per 6 months or per year basis. They could offer that at some kind of discount versus pay per draft cost. It would lock people in to the game for a set time period. Would guarantee money. And Help guarantee more people active in the draft events.

This is a good idea. I don't see why they couldn't eventually bring out different levels of the VIP program.

Overall I think that tier stacking should have been maxed at two...one Kickstarter and one PayPal. From the looks of it I don't think any less money would have been made and the community would be larger at launch. But hindsight is 20/20 and its hard to feel too bad about a campaign this successful.

TheWrathofShane
06-07-2013, 03:08 AM
In the long run what is the difference between one person having 2+ tiers or two people have 1 tier each?
Not much, same amount of cards are distributed. King is a fantastic package, one of the best deals around and unlimited. Take that and be satisfied with an amazing deal instead of being jealous.

Also you can invest that 130 extra that you would have spent on some drafts over time.

TheWrathofShane
06-07-2013, 03:15 AM
I'm inclined to agree that the pro tier is not necessarily "better" than the other tiers in the set. The only tier that seems lackluster is the guildmaster tier and even then it depends because the guildmaster will help get friends into the game.

Its probably going to be a ball crunching grind to get these mercs to lvl 20, and guildmaster will help out a lot.

hammer
06-07-2013, 04:32 AM
Why do multi-pledgers believe they can keep two $250 tiers as separate accounts and thus benefit from drafting on both accounts free for a year. As I understand you HAVE to merge and when you do you cannot stack the drafts so you will end up with one account and 1 draft a week regardless of how many tiers you pledge. My understanding is that CZE will not tolerate the abuse of the game associated with multipledges being kept separate to game the system for the extra "non-stackable" draft bonus.

EdwardBishop
06-07-2013, 04:40 AM
Why do multi-pledgers believe they can keep two $250 tiers as separate accounts and thus benefit from drafting on both accounts free for a year. As I understand you HAVE to merge and when you do you cannot stack the drafts so you will end up with one account and 1 draft a week regardless of how many tiers you pledge. My understanding is that CZE will not tolerate the abuse of the game associated with multipledges being kept separate to game the system for the extra "non-stackable" draft bonus.

I agree with your logic, from what I understand... we need to shout it from the rootftops so that the multipledgers here will realize that, and maybe drop some of their tiers, opening them up to those of us who haven't gotten the ones we want yet...

This is why it's considered business ethics to say 'limit one per customer' on limited products even though they could maximize profit more quickly by selling the whole lot to hoarders and speculators...

mainstager
06-07-2013, 04:43 AM
OP. News Flash.

It wouldn't have mattered. People would have just opened multiple account with different payment info, which is not in violation of the ToS. If people want something, they are going to get it weather you like it or not.