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KeplerVerge
05-22-2013, 10:39 PM
Man, I read through the KS comments on the last update and I can't believe people. The last stretch goal was precisely the right direction to go.

All these people saying they have a right to complain or demand because they are pledging, are absolutely wrong! You are pledging. Pledging is the same as a donation. When you make a donation, you are not actually entitled to even a "Thank you." It is an action of your utterly free will. You are not making a purchase! However, Cryptozoic is choosing to be kind and reward you for your faith and donation through a tier structure. If at any time during the pledge drive you feel dissatisfied, you are free to alter or retract your pledge.

They needed to incentivize new people pledging into the existing tiers. Not only did they do this by adding a year's worth of drafts to the $250 mark, they simultaneously gave each of those tiers a real identity by making the perceived baseline calculable value the same. That is what so many people are really angry about, because now that total value includes a greater portion of perceived value, you have to make a real decision as to what's more important to you. Pvp? Loot? Leading in battle or being the guiding hand of the force as a whole? Or maybe the super unique has always been your thing? It's no longer a faceroll decision and requires real input based on your actual preferences. /gasp :eek:

By adding drafts to the pve oriented tiers it also acts as an easy introduction to the pvp side to garner interest from players pledging in a tier that might have never tried the pvp side because they didn't want to put money up front for something they weren't sure would be fun for them. Reward incentive isn't necessary in reverse because pve is already f2p. This is good business strategy.

The pro tier still favors pro players, as drafts for life (and merge-able x4) is unbeatable if pvp is your focus.

Tablet support was a good choice, because if it's available at release it'll help this become huge. This goal will likely draw in pledges from those on the fence with regards to mobile support. (who can always retract if it's a day off the funding goal and it hasn't been met) More people interested in and playing the game is a good thing.

Personally, I think if pledging stalls they could add something like a Grand King Jr $400 tier, with the GK benefits but only lasting 1yr instead of for life. A lot of complaints on the update were to the effect of "How will I know I'll even be playing for more than a year." I believe a tier like this would not alienate GK or $250 tier pledges because it would show that it comes with a sacrifice of limited benefit duration. GKs do not lose their early adoption permanent rewards, and $250 tiers are not "devalued" because their primary benefit remains permanent. It is merely an option and incentive for new or increased pledges if you were looking for more than what a $250 offers but perhaps your scope of value is a time frame consideration <= 12 months.

Regardless, kickstarter projects often offer incredibly good value for their donation tiers and this project has been no exception. I would actually consider this to be one of, if not the, most generous reward structures offered by a project. Don't hate, appreciate.

gilby123
05-22-2013, 10:44 PM
Exactly. Technically, they only need to give you your tier rewards, the stretch goals are purely bonuses.
And people that are complaining don't seem to grasp that if this helps bring in more pledges and more people, it's purely just better for everyone. What good are drafts for life, or any long term rewards, if the game fails in a year?

Yasi
05-22-2013, 10:53 PM
This just in - People like to complain.

KaosRebel666
05-22-2013, 10:59 PM
This was my reaction exactly. I was glad they decided to give the other $250 tiers 1-year drafts to increase the player base. I hope to be playing this game for many years, so bring in as many players as possible! My only complaint is having to wait until September to start playing :D

thereck
05-22-2013, 11:13 PM
Not only did they do this by adding a year's worth of drafts to the $250 mark, they simultaneously gave each of those tiers a real identity by making the perceived baseline calculable value the same. That is what so many people are really angry about, because now that total value includes a greater portion of perceived value, you have to make a real decision as to what's more important to you.


I would argue that this happened because they destroyed our estimations to the value of the final reward while also lowering the relative value by actually giving all equal tiers that estimated value which we were expecting but did not receive.

logically people don't get angry at more choices, they actually get more apathetic to the choices given in most cases.

funktion
05-22-2013, 11:17 PM
I'm double pro and still loving it. Not tripping one bit, f all the other pro tier haters.

Gwaer
05-22-2013, 11:21 PM
I would argue that this happened because they destroyed our estimations to the value of the final reward while also lowering the relative value by actually giving all equal tiers that estimated value which we were expecting but did not receive.

logically people don't get angry at more choices, they actually get more apathetic to the choices given in most cases.

People are not logical, and they get angry at all sorts of stupid things, this included.

Thanisse
05-22-2013, 11:23 PM
the people from pro tier and above fail to see a minor technicality on this "here's 1 year draft " thing .
people will now buy the 250 $ tiers that MAY have the 1 year free draft thing ...
BUT what if the 1.5 million isn't reached ?
they are just throwing away money at the wind , where as the silly complainers with their pro tier still get to keep their X times draft a week no matter what , FOR LIFE .

people really should stop moaning about others getting "more"
they are not ... they get it limited , unstackable , and not even 100 % sure they get it ...
also the pro player backers can always make their pledge something else , if they really want 6 x exclusive art cards versus a life time of free drafting -__-

and before you start telling me how cool the exclusive art cards are /would be ... yeah , I know , I like exclusive stuff ... but guess what , if I can't afford to play , those EAs would be more or less useless unless I plan to sell them ... which I wouldn't ...
the draft / week for life keeps on giving even if you're for one reason or another unable to put money in the game over the course of it .

Xexist
05-22-2013, 11:47 PM
people really should stop moaning about others getting "more" .

Some of you keep on using an argument that I dont think I have actually seen anyone use, which is people complaining that other tiers got more. I have only seen a very few number of people complain about all the tiers getting the draft for a year (some have, but very few). Its easy to make your argument look better when you are arguing things people never said.

MOST people that are complaining, arent complaining that the other tiers got a lot, in fact most agree that the other tiers needed more, possibly still do. MOST are complaining, that for this particular goal, certain tiers got next to nothing. 15 set 2 packs is all well and Dandy, but I certainly am not going to go around posting how legenday this was.

zaku
05-22-2013, 11:55 PM
Some of you keep on using an argument that I dont think I have actually seen anyone use, which is people complaining that other tiers got more. I have only seen a very few number of people complain about all the tiers getting the draft for a year (some have, but very few). Its easy to make your argument look better when you are arguing things people never said.

MOST people that are complaining, arent complaining that the other tiers got a lot, in fact most agree that the other tiers needed more, possibly still do. MOST are complaining, that for this particular goal, certain tiers got next to nothing. 15 set 2 packs is all well and Dandy, but I certainly am not going to go around posting how legenday this was.


But that's the issue, with all the other 250's being less valuable, it needs more help with the goal to get the funding. With pp being sold out, there's no need for it to be better. The fact that its making people drop pp to another tier might be a blessing in disguise, since they don't really seem to care about drafting anyway and are all just trying to get as much cards as they can.

Grissnap
05-22-2013, 11:58 PM
@Xexist - salient point. I too woke up and saw there weren't that many bonuses for me. I then rationalized that, well... my tier still rocks, and moved past that initial disappointment. I can see why some would not, its a natural reaction. When approached rationally, its not a big deal, but there is a strong emotional sentiment to those who were looking forward to an amazing Legendary bonus. It might have been cool if they announced to the GK and PP tier that they would run a second special tournament or something, just so people didn't emotionally feel like they got left out.

So I really do understand how you all are feeling.

Envec
05-23-2013, 12:06 AM
As a sole PP backer I have no problems with the tweak to the other $250 tiers. But presenting a fix to an imbalance in tiers as part of a "Legendary" stretch goal was probably a bit of a dick move. Mainly because it focuses the bonus too much on a limited number of tiers.

Would much rather them present it for what it is... A buff to try and keep the momentum of this kickstarter campaign going. Would of been great to see a separate update saying "Yeah, we fucked up with those other tiers, to make it more fair and to promote more sales here's a buff for those undervalued tiers". I think it would of been a lot more palatable that way at least.

Sci3nce
05-23-2013, 12:10 AM
You're just drinking the wrong stuff.

http://i.imgur.com/swT0Wks.png

And Eating wrong too.

http://i.imgur.com/uiCpApS.jpg


Just a couple days with these 2 and you too can be a Hater!

zaku
05-23-2013, 12:14 AM
As a sole PP backer I have no problems with the tweak to the other $250 tiers. But presenting a fix to an imbalance in tiers as part of a "Legendary" stretch goal was probably a bit of a dick move. Mainly because it focuses the bonus too much on a limited number of tiers.

Would much rather them present it for what it is... A buff to try and keep the momentum of this kickstarter campaign going. Would of been great to see a separate update saying "Yeah, we fucked up with those other tiers, to make it more fair and to promote more sales here's a buff for those undervalued tiers". I think it would of been a lot more palatable that way at least.


I'm curious, would it still be a "dick move" if they remove the orange border and call it "random stretch goal" rather than legendary? Or is it the name that's throwing people off?

MasterPlan
05-23-2013, 12:17 AM
Man, I read through the KS comments on the last update and I can't believe people. The last stretch goal was precisely the right direction to go.

All these people saying they have a right to complain or demand because they are pledging, are absolutely wrong! You are pledging. Pledging is the same as a donation. When you make a donation, you are not actually entitled to even a "Thank you." It is an action of your utterly free will. You are not making a purchase! However, Cryptozoic is choosing to be kind and reward you for your faith and donation through a tier structure. If at any time during the pledge drive you feel dissatisfied, you are free to alter or retract your pledge.

They needed to incentivize new people pledging into the existing tiers. Not only did they do this by adding a year's worth of drafts to the $250 mark, they simultaneously gave each of those tiers a real identity by making the perceived baseline calculable value the same. That is what so many people are really angry about, because now that total value includes a greater portion of perceived value, you have to make a real decision as to what's more important to you. Pvp? Loot? Leading in battle or being the guiding hand of the force as a whole? Or maybe the super unique has always been your thing? It's no longer a faceroll decision and requires real input based on your actual preferences. /gasp :eek:

By adding drafts to the pve oriented tiers it also acts as an easy introduction to the pvp side to garner interest from players pledging in a tier that might have never tried the pvp side because they didn't want to put money up front for something they weren't sure would be fun for them. Reward incentive isn't necessary in reverse because pve is already f2p. This is good business strategy.

The pro tier still favors pro players, as drafts for life (and merge-able x4) is unbeatable if pvp is your focus.

Tablet support was a good choice, because if it's available at release it'll help this become huge. This goal will likely draw in pledges from those on the fence with regards to mobile support. (who can always retract if it's a day off the funding goal and it hasn't been met) More people interested in and playing the game is a good thing.

Personally, I think if pledging stalls they could add something like a Grand King Jr $400 tier, with the GK benefits but only lasting 1yr instead of for life. A lot of complaints on the update were to the effect of "How will I know I'll even be playing for more than a year." I believe a tier like this would not alienate GK or $250 tier pledges because it would show that it comes with a sacrifice of limited benefit duration. GKs do not lose their early adoption permanent rewards, and $250 tiers are not "devalued" because their primary benefit remains permanent. It is merely an option and incentive for new or increased pledges if you were looking for more than what a $250 offers but perhaps your scope of value is a time frame consideration <= 12 months.

Regardless, kickstarter projects often offer incredibly good value for their donation tiers and this project has been no exception. I would actually consider this to be one of, if not the, most generous reward structures offered by a project. Don't hate, appreciate.

I agree with this statement and sentiment!

Xexist
05-23-2013, 12:17 AM
@Xexist - salient point. I too woke up and saw there weren't that many bonuses for me. I then rationalized that, well... my tier still rocks, and moved past that initial disappointment. I can see why some would not, its a natural reaction. When approached rationally, its not a big deal, but there is a strong emotional sentiment to those who were looking forward to an amazing Legendary bonus. It might have been cool if they announced to the GK and PP tier that they would run a second special tournament or something, just so people didn't emotionally feel like they got left out.

So I really do understand how you all are feeling.

In the KS comment I posted how it was like opening a Christmas present, saving the best for last, and then realizing you didnt get what you wanted, but instead a pair of socks.

I TOTALLY think I have great value in my GK tier, I am nowhere even close to considering dropping it for something else. I am a little disappointed in the Legendary 'bonus' but I will get over it.


As a sole PP backer I have no problems with the tweak to the other $250 tiers. But presenting a fix to an imbalance in tiers as part of a "Legendary" stretch goal was probably a bit of a dick move. Mainly because it focuses the bonus too much on a limited number of tiers.

Would much rather them present it for what it is... A buff to try and keep the momentum of this kickstarter campaign going. Would of been great to see a separate update saying "Yeah, we fucked up with those other tiers, to make it more fair and to promote more sales here's a buff for those undervalued tiers". I think it would of been a lot more palatable that way at least.

+1 The other tiers greatly deserved to be beefed up, but it was done poorly.


I'm curious, would it still be a "dick move" if they remove the orange border and call it "random stretch goal" rather than legendary? Or is it the name that's throwing people off?

Frankly, had they just stuck it in as a random stretch goal, and made clear it was to fix balance issues, I think most would have understood. Some would have still complained, you are obviously never going to make everyone happy, but I think yeah, it would have made some people feel less slighted.

Genocidal
05-23-2013, 12:18 AM
The fact that they hyped up the Legendary goal so much and then gave 3 tiers a huge boost that none of the higher or lower tiers get left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. As someone still waffling between PP and GK I would've been happier if they admitted they screwed up balancing of the $250s and changed it outside of the Legendary reward.

MasterPlan
05-23-2013, 12:26 AM
To provide tablet support for launch is a legendary goal! They also gave every other tier some value most of them a 10% bonus (argument slides a bit a GK and above). I think if they just said they were going to boost the other $250 dollar tiers without making it part of a stretch goal there would have been alot less complaining.

GhundiPI
05-23-2013, 12:29 AM
I think people are misunderstanding what the Legendary part was about, which was about the tablet support. Looking at it from CZE's point of view, it is very legendary indeed. It is a huge step for a company to offer proper tablet support, especially considering the complexity of a game like this.

Everything else is tacked on, like all the previous rewards were. As for people complaining that there was nothing of value in it for them, welcome to stretch goals and practically every tier below King.

Deathfog
05-23-2013, 12:44 AM
No one is seriously complaining about anything, they are just bored and letting off steam as things wind down. There's nothing left to say at this point, just a long arduous waiting game for beta then onto retail. Game looks good, tablet support is soon to be assured, KS rewards are significantly more than adequate, plenty of valuable 250 tiers still open along with limitless Kings.

There will be a period of regret for those who didn't get the tier(s) they wish they would have gotten once the campaign ends in 2 weeks. There will be a significant amount of time that people who get after the KS, who didn't get a chance to get in on the beta will howl and scream that they should somehow find a way to get in on it as well. Just standard inevitable stuff that will happen in the future regardless of any other factors.

Xexist
05-23-2013, 12:46 AM
No one is seriously complaining about anything, they are just bored and letting off steam as things wind down. There's nothing left to say at this point, just a long arduous waiting game for beta then onto retail. Game looks good, tablet support is soon to be assured, KS rewards are significantly more than adequate, plenty of valuable 250 tiers still open along with limitless Kings.

There will be a period of regret for those who didn't get the tier(s) they wish they would have gotten once the campaign ends in 2 weeks. There will be a significant amount of time that people who get after the KS, who didn't get a chance to get in on the beta will howl and scream that they should somehow find a way to get in on it as well. Just standard inevitable stuff that will happen in the future regardless of any other factors.

Off topic, But for some reason I first read your name as DeathFrog, which made it no less awesome.