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Mahes
05-23-2013, 05:47 AM
This company might have done something they should not have done at this stage of thier game, cause controversy. The last Stretch Bonus has a lot of players thinking hard about thier investment. The players I refer to are the 1000 who pledged the Pro Tier. That is $250,000 and also makes up perhaps the foundation of your PvP base which is half of this game.

Up until now, the PR had been perfect for this game. Many players were very excited and a lot of the major forums dealing with games such as this were bright eyed and bushy tailed in anticipation for the release of this game. I can honestly say that suddenly that has changed. The last Stretch goal sent a ripple through the internet that needs to be delt with.

The 1000 Pro Tier players are most likely the hardcore players who will make for some of the best word of mouth you will get for this game. Was it such a good idea to introduce the last stretch goal that awarded all equal or above with a fantastic reward, and gave nothing to the Pro Tier players? I question that descision. The PvP aspect of this game is honestly going to be what drives this game. Yes the PvE is nice and fun, but in the end it will be the PvP that drives it.

I want this game to be successful, because it looks like so much thought and passion went into this game. I have wanted a game like this to come out since Magic the Gathering has been out. Please rectify this somehow so the ripple caused by this recent "Stretch" goal fades away.

Thankyou

Yasi
05-23-2013, 05:49 AM
You're misunderstanding something.

People will jump onto the Pro tier regardless. Oh, 1 person just dropped out? Well look at that-another just took that spot.

MasterN64
05-23-2013, 06:05 AM
I still dont understand this whole situation. People complained that the other 250 tiers were useless and needed a buff so they get buffed and people complain about them getting too much stuff. What the hell guys? Sure it was a pretty large buff but damn how is more free stuff a bad thing? Oh no my pro tier isnt as valuable for the first year now what am i gonna do?

Deal with it? Switch tiers?

And all this talk of the final stretch goal being something like alpha access or earlier beta is just dumb anyway. There is nothing wrong with the final goal. People just cant stand the fact something is getting put in that doesnt give us loads of free stuff and its just showing the greed of the average person. A literal BOAT LOAD of work goes into making something for another platform and keeping it up to date. A mobile version of the game is a HUGE amount of work to pull off and it is a large goal and worthy of the name.

Voices
05-23-2013, 06:11 AM
I personally do not see any real problems with the latest stretch goal. What I am very much interested in, however, is how Cory et al respond to the kind of criticism that has been generated. There is a lot to learn from the approach they take now for future instances of criticism (because there will inevtiably be a lot of that).

4acrossisemu
05-23-2013, 06:13 AM
it's absolutely fine. pro gets for life over a year?? it's still the best value tier in terms of money saving. The others are just very much on par with that as they get a nice perk for life and the perk of a years subs. It's not devalued anything at all just increased the player pool from day dot.

MasterN64
05-23-2013, 06:15 AM
I personally do not see any real problems with the latest stretch goal. What I am very much interested in, however, is how Cory et al respond to the kind of criticism that has been generated. There is a lot to learn from the approach they take now for future instances of criticism (because there will inevtiably be a lot of that).

I just hope the next bout of criticism is more actual criticism and less BAWWWWWWW I DIDNT GET MORE FREE STUFF.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 06:16 AM
You're misunderstanding something.

People will jump onto the Pro tier regardless. Oh, 1 person just dropped out? Well look at that-another just took that spot.

You clearly misunderstand the post. Read the first lines. The fact that they made a move that created so much controversy is a mistake in and of itself. Before you make any arguments at all, please provide us, nay convince us that making a move that creates so much controversy that it overshadows the fact that they are adding tablet compatibility (not something to be taken lightly) to the point where barely any people are even talking about it, is a good move. Or even a neutral one, at best. Because right now, the numbers are looking like shit. Oh, and half of yesterday's donations came from GK selling out before the announcement, just fyi.

Merir
05-23-2013, 06:18 AM
I'm curious to see whether Cryptozoic will acknowledge the controversy created by the legendary goal in their next daily update.

Mahes
05-23-2013, 06:18 AM
You are mis-understanding my post. I am fine remaining with Pro Tier.

Many many players are not though happy with the recent state of events. This is creating a negative perception of how this game will be run in the future. That is the wrong thing to be doing at this stage of development. A solution would be to just give the Gk/PP crowd "Something" for that stretch goal. Can be an extra tournement or perhaps PvP only art on some fo the cards from Set2. At this point , I think anything would be a good idea.

As I posted, I want the game to be successful. I feel however, that this latest maneuver might have sent the wrong message to a great deal of players.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 06:20 AM
Crypto doesn't need to do anything to "rectify." The PP tier was already OP and they balanced to make the other tiers closer in value. So what? The PP's lost NOTHING. If they don't like a company balancing, they probably shouldn't play an MMO because balancing happens a lot.

Frankly, I'm tired of the complaining that "Hey, they got more than me!" From the group already getting their account essentially paid for in a year. The only way ANYONE'S tier has value is if the game has long term success. This goal had doing that written all over it. Those PP's feeling slighted? Get over it.

Dralon
05-23-2013, 06:20 AM
"Ripple through the internet?" Methinks you exagerrate slightly.

If Cryptozoic delivers a great game experience, then any "bad PR" will evaporate quickly. Nothing in the last stretch goal changes my belief that they will do that.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 06:22 AM
You are mis-understanding my post. I am fine remaining with Pro Tier.

Many many players are not though happy with the recent state of events. This is creating a negative perception of how this game will be run in the future. That is the wrong thing to be doing at this stage of development. A solution would be to just give the Gk/PP crowd "Something" for that stretch goal. Can be an extra tournement or perhaps PvP only art on some fo the cards from Set2. At this point , I think anything would be a good idea.

As I posted, I want the game to be successful. I feel however, that this latest maneuver might have sent the wrong message to a great deal of players.

The goals are BONUSES. Why can you and others not be happy with the giant pile of stuff you're already getting? Why does it kill you all SO BAD that someone is getting more, while absolutely nothing has been taken from you?

Arbiter
05-23-2013, 06:23 AM
Actually games make money and spread on the strength of the casual players. A helpful, enthusiastic "elite" player is a boon and will help with growth, a self-entitled, arrogant "elite" player will never improve your player base and enough of them will drive numbers down.

I fail to see, given how some gamers are, how they could have avoided controversy and had a large stretch goal at the end. The only way to raise any large amount was by somehow offering something that didn't pale to some very good valued tiers. And that triggers the self-entitled responses from some (not all 1000).

And for the rest of us, well these controversies are going to crop up over the life of the game. It is good for us to see in the pre-game stage how the company will handle it - whether they will stand by their decision or cave in to a vocal minority. There will be plenty of these decisions to be made down the track if teh game is successful.

Merir
05-23-2013, 06:25 AM
Why can you and others not be happy with the giant pile of stuff you're already getting? Why does it kill you all SO BAD that someone is getting more, while absolutely nothing has been taken from you?

Because jealousy and envy make up a sizeable portion of the human experience.

Mahes
05-23-2013, 06:28 AM
ok, I will try this again in slow motion.

I...Am....Fine...With...The...Stretch...Reward. I do not plan to alter what I have pledged.

It is clear however that thier current descision has upset many players. Up until this point, no player who had pledged was upset. Then suddenly with this last descision, a good deal of the people who pledged felt slighted. Bad PR for a game that has not even been released in "Never" a good idea. This is not Hollywood. I am simply pleading to the producers of this game to please say something, or do something before this negativity is allowed to fester and grow.

I want the game to be successful, or I would have never pledged what I did.

Yasi
05-23-2013, 06:30 AM
ok, I will try this again in slow motion.

I...Am....Fine...With...The...Stretch...Reward. I do not plan to alter what I have pledged.

It is clear however that thier current descision has upset many players. Up until this point, no player who had pledged was upset. Then suddenly with this last descision, a good deal of the people who pledged felt slighted. Bad PR for a game that has not even been released in "Never" a good idea. This is not Hollywood. I am simply pleading to the producers of this game to please say something, or do something before this negativity is allowed to fester and grow.

I want the game to be successful, or I would have never pledged what I did.

Nobody care what you want. What I want however...

gilby123
05-23-2013, 06:38 AM
Because jealousy and envy make up a sizeable portion of the human experience.

Then that's a problem of that person and not Crypto's fault.

houjix
05-23-2013, 06:41 AM
You think it's bad now, wait till all the new blood shows up and starts complaining about all the advantages the KS backers have. The perceived slight that a few vocal people are voicing now is going to be nothing compared to that crapstorm. Be sure to buy some hipwaders over the summer.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 06:42 AM
ok, I will try this again in slow motion.

I...Am....Fine...With...The...Stretch...Reward. I do not plan to alter what I have pledged.

It is clear however that thier current descision has upset many players. Up until this point, no player who had pledged was upset. Then suddenly with this last descision, a good deal of the people who pledged felt slighted. Bad PR for a game that has not even been released in "Never" a good idea. This is not Hollywood. I am simply pleading to the producers of this game to please say something, or do something before this negativity is allowed to fester and grow.

I want the game to be successful, or I would have never pledged what I did.

Ooooor, those that are complaining could take a step back and determine WHY they're so bent out of shape. Crypto did what's best, long-term, for the game and the KS. A minority are upset. I cold see their justification if they'd been nerves/had anything removed, but they didn't. Others just got more than them. If that small a level of inequality bothers them that much, I highly suggest they leave, honestly, because that's how MMO's and CCG's work. Someone is always ripping a better rare or getting a better drop. Sometimes, it's you, most times, it's not.

Daer
05-23-2013, 07:12 AM
If people who pledged feel slighted (it is a small minority, don't speak for all Pro Players) they are free to cancel or change their pledge. Whining but then not doing anything isn't a very strong message and is one that can be easily ignored.

Yasi
05-23-2013, 07:15 AM
If people who pledged feel slighted (it is a small minority, don't speak for all Pro Players) they are free to cancel or change their pledge. Whining but then not doing anything isn't a very strong message and is one that can be easily ignored.

But they're making topics on the forums and others feel like they should address them as though they're sane.

thereck
05-23-2013, 07:21 AM
If people who pledged feel slighted (it is a small minority, don't speak for all Pro Players) they are free to cancel or change their pledge. Whining but then not doing anything isn't a very strong message and is one that can be easily ignored.

response to criticism of the company > white knights attack their playerbase. Reinforcing OP's point that this is a PR problem.

Grissnap
05-23-2013, 07:27 AM
Everyone loves this game and wants it to succeed. That is definitely a great thing. People have different opinions, that is also a great thing. Yay!

So far, I'm mostly positive about how Crypto has been doing their Kickstarter.

So one thing I just thought of, the opposite of a white knight is a black knight right? So for all those white knights attacking the black knights, it doesn't matter how many blows you land because:

http://angrymanspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arles-and-legless-knight.jpg

Floru
05-23-2013, 07:35 AM
Everyone loves this game and wants it to succeed. That is definitely a great thing. People have different opinions, that is also a great thing. Yay!

So far, I'm mostly positive about how Crypto has been doing their Kickstarter.

So one thing I just thought of, the opposite of a white knight is a black knight right? So for all those white knights attacking the black knights, it doesn't matter how many blows you land because:

http://angrymanspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arles-and-legless-knight.jpg

"I'll bite your legs off!" - Black Knight, Monty Python.

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 07:39 AM
The pro-player tier still has the most perceived value. That is why it locked up first.................

Anyways, take your energy and use it to spread knowledge about this game. The last stretch goal won't even be hit unless we get another 3 to 4 thousand people interested in this concept before June 7th. Perhaps not hitting the last stretch is what you want so the precious PP tier is even further above the rest, like it has been since inception?

I've already reached out to 8 people that I thought would be interested, and pulled in an additional 4 backers.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 07:57 AM
I agree that there was some potential mishandling of this issue by tying this change to the stretch goal as I believe we will hit the $1.5mil and this change would have gone down better as a separate update. I disagree with it being addressed directly and especially with caving and offering a sop to the complainers by giving PP and GK a freebie (even though I would benefit).

The people complaining in general are doing so either in selfishness or for some perceived slight which does not exist.
The community considered Pro Tier highly desirable.
The community felt the other $250 tiers were underwhelming.
The community felt free drafts were a good return on investment.
Crypto offered an opportunity to trade their long term revenue for additional bonuses if they could fund a new stage of development through the KS.
If you now think that the other tiers are worth more than PP or GK you can switch
Some people freaked the hell out.

So far from what I have seen most of the GK and above active on the forums and most of the declared Pros active on the forum have no issue with the rewards they have and welcome the potential influx of players this change offers (should be a much better last surge now than was likely with no enticing $250 tiers available)

thereck
05-23-2013, 08:01 AM
the opposite of white knighting is being reasonable

A white knight doesn't participate in the debate, and attacks it with mention of their own false valor
a black knight participate in the debate, because he's just there to trollioliol

houjix
05-23-2013, 08:02 AM
I mentioned this before, but not that they can do anything about it now, had they made it 6 months of free draft, the uproar would have been considerably less. Good value would have been added to the other $250 tiers without it being too big a slight towards PP.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:02 AM
Crypto doesn't need to do anything to "rectify." The PP tier was already OP and they balanced to make the other tiers closer in value. So what? The PP's lost NOTHING. If they don't like a company balancing, they probably shouldn't play an MMO because balancing happens a lot.

Frankly, I'm tired of the complaining that "Hey, they got more than me!" From the group already getting their account essentially paid for in a year. The only way ANYONE'S tier has value is if the game has long term success. This goal had doing that written all over it. Those PP's feeling slighted? Get over it.

Crypto's been pretty good with addressing concerns based on their updates. I think there will be something for the PP/GK+ tiers, like Dungeon Crawler for 1 year (PP) or just giving them an extra sealed tournament/month for a year.

thereck
05-23-2013, 08:04 AM
@marcus please provide hard proof to back up claim on how you came to "most"

my logical proof is in the message volume spike on Ks, the comments on the update, and this board shows that something major happened.

Grissnap
05-23-2013, 08:10 AM
@marcus please provide hard proof to back up claim on how you came to "most"

my logical proof is in the message volume spike on Ks, the comments on the update, and this board shows that something major happened.

http://angrymanspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arles-and-legless-knight.jpg

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:15 AM
The goals are BONUSES. Why can you and others not be happy with the giant pile of stuff you're already getting? Why does it kill you all SO BAD that someone is getting more, while absolutely nothing has been taken from you?

Actually, something has been taken. The value of his tier has, comparatively, gone down the gutter for the first year of the game. Sure, nothing was literally taken from him, but the value of his items were detracted from.

If someone gave you a gold nugget, and it was the only gold nugget in the world, it would be pretty valuable. But then if the guy that gave you a gold nugget gave everybody in North America a gold nugget, then suddenly your gold nugget is a lot less valuable. Furthermore, you should address the issues at hand instead of attacking the person. Stop arguing from a mind projection fallacy standpoint. Your view on the issue is not necessarily the way the world works.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 08:17 AM
But they're making topics on the forums and others feel like they should address them as though they're sane.

This is a hilarious statement coming from you, might I add.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:23 AM
It's all quite simple, really.

Let's assume things will stay the way they are. Is the game serviced more by the state of the forums now, with people arguing over the last tier reward, or is better off with people discussing what they want to do, how awesome the game looks, making guilds, etc. etc. If you pick the latter, then you must agree that CZE has made a poor PR move. Why? Because the way the handled their legendary stretch goal directly caused the former. I love you people that argue that somehow it's a good PR move to throw your supporters into a state of dissension.

Aeris130
05-23-2013, 08:28 AM
Actually, something has been taken. The value of his tier has, comparatively, gone down the gutter for the first year of the game. Sure, nothing was literally taken from him, but the value of his items were detracted from.

If someone gave you a gold nugget, and it was the only gold nugget in the world, it would be pretty valuable. But then if the guy that gave you a gold nugget gave everybody in North America a gold nugget, then suddenly your gold nugget is a lot less valuable. Furthermore, you should address the issues at hand instead of attacking the person. Stop arguing from a mind projection fallacy standpoint. Your view on the issue is not necessarily the way the world works.

This is a really shitty example. The reason gold has value is because you trade it with other people in exchange for stuff. The more people that has gold, the less potential traders exist for your nugget. Likewise, more people having gold means competition when everyone tries to trade them, undercutting eachother.

Nothing of this applies to the draft. Nothing has changed. PP's doesn't get any less of anything. The only thing (the single thing) that has changed is that they have more players to draft with.


Pro players do not get less
Pro players do not miss out on anything they previously thought they would get
The addition of drafts for other tiers does not affect the pro tier negatively
Pro players have the option to switch to other tiers at any time


In other words, Pro players are discontent that others are getting something they didn't think they would get. When these babies realize this, there are two steps that must be taken:


Wait another 10-12 years for these people to grow into adults and realize that only kids have enough spare time to give a shit about this
Be happy that other people get to play more Hex


It's simple, people.

Daer
05-23-2013, 08:30 AM
It's all quite simple, really.

Let's assume things will stay the way they are. Is the game serviced more by the state of the forums now, with people arguing over the last tier reward, or is better off with people discussing what they want to do, how awesome the game looks, making guilds, etc. etc. If you pick the latter, then you must agree that CZE has made a poor PR move. Why? Because the way the handled their legendary stretch goal directly caused the former. I love you people that argue that somehow it's a good PR move to throw your supporters into a state of dissension.

It is bad but its temporary. Since no one seems to actually be cancelling their tiers it is likely to completely blow over in a few days.

Remember the debate about cards going "out of print" or not? No one has talked about that in a week+

I'm curious, with the changes to the $250 tiers what order do you put them in from most value to least and what tier are you backing?

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:33 AM
It'll 'blow over' only if addressed or the KS project ends and it's clear they are not changing their original intent.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 08:36 AM
It'll 'blow over' only if addressed or the KS project ends and it's clear they are not changing their original intent.

So the latter, then?

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:40 AM
I suspect they'll address the issue in an update in a few hours, apologize, and give a token bonus (1 year of Dungeon crawler to all the PP players, not stacking) and a few bonus somethings (1 free pre-release Sealed event for the next 3 sets to GKs).

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:42 AM
It is bad but its temporary. Since no one seems to actually cancelling their tiers it is likely to completely blow over in a few days.

Remember the debate about cards going "out of print" or not? No one has talked about that in a week+

I'm curious, with the changes to the $250 tiers what order do you put them in from most value to least and what tier are you backing?

Yes, however there are potential consequences that we may not be able to see now (or ever). For example, I explained to my friend what happened and he immediately said "Wow, that doesn't seem fair". I then explained how people were upset about it, and he replied "I can understand why". Now, regardless or the validity of the opinions on those side of the fence, the fact I was his only source of information about Hex. I just informed him there was a lot of negativity going on in Hexland. He is now a lot less likely to back Hex. I'd like to stress that I didn't try to influence his opinion at all; the fact that there was negativity surrounding it made him uneasy about the project itself. Sure, he's just one person, but spread over a lot of people... that's a huge amount of potential support CZE just lost. But we're just talking about intangibles here, but you can see my point.

I think the other issue is that you can choose not to merge accounts and have the free draft for a year essentially stack.

Personally, I'm GK + 2xPP. I might swap one of my PP to a collector tier and not combine it, since the maintenance for a collector tier is very minimal.

Before the controversial decision, I had the tiers ranked at: 1. Pro, 2. Dungeon, 3. Raid, 4. Guild/Collect. The reason I initially rated collector so low is that 2 kings vs. 1 collector is basically 6 exclusive cards vs. a shitload of extra product and extra cards KS exclusive cards. I'd like to also note that the +100% loot drops is not something to be scoffed at, and I personally feel that it will end up being a better value than a free draft every week (as CZE has hinted there will be a lot of valuable equipment). Present day, I probably rate the tiers: 1. Dungeon, 2. Collect, 3. Raid, 4. Pro, 5. Guild. Honestly, what it comes down to is pro is essentially strictly inferior to every other tier unless you happen to win something during the exclusive Pro Player tournaments. And even then, it has to be something quite substantial. I've also debated about breaking my GK into two different $250 tiers, but I really wanted one of everything and I like to draft so that's why I decided to play PP.

I've played on the Pro Tour numerous times for MTG, and I make a decent bit of money playing Magic Online. I've done roughly 300 drafts since the start of 2013.

Kami
05-23-2013, 08:42 AM
I suspect they'll address the issue in an update in a few hours, apologize, and give a token bonus (1 year of Dungeon crawler to all the PP players, not stacking) and a few bonus somethings (1 free pre-release Sealed event for the next 3 sets to GKs).

I see no reason for them to do such. I mean, they didn't ever fix what multi-pledging did to the higher tiers either.

Only difference is that now something 'looks' like it affects the 'lower tiers' (even though their value has not changed).

Malicus
05-23-2013, 08:46 AM
@marcus please provide hard proof to back up claim on how you came to "most"

my logical proof is in the message volume spike on Ks, the comments on the update, and this board shows that something major happened.

I "think" I am Marcus - not entirely sure - but as I stated my perception is that most of the declared GK and above as well as pros are not unhappy. Most of the threads are discussions/arguments with the larger percentage being in favour of this change or at worst grudgingly accepting it.

There is a lot of noise on this but the numbers haven't changed. If people really thought that pro was worth less than the other tiers - which really is the only consideration that matters when looking at comparative value - they would switch.

Is the difference in value between tiers lower than it was before the update? Yes
Does this make other tiers more valuable than PVP? On current evidence no (pledges) the only other measure is opinion and if you think the other tiers are more valuable then switch.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:46 AM
I see no reason for them to do such. I mean, they didn't ever fix what multi-pledging did to the higher tiers either.

Only difference is that now something 'looks' like it affects the 'lower tiers' (even though their value has not changed).

Pure speculation on both sides. Not saying anybody is wrong here, just saying that we have literally no idea what they will do; we'll find out in a few hours. I hope that CZE issues a formal apology on the matter; anyone who's ever worked/studied/heard of PR knows that it doesn't matter what the cause/root of the problem is. The fact is you have a bunch of angry people that feel slighted, and an official apology (even if it's just words) will go a long way to mending the damage (especially if it's coupled with an explanation). Notice how I didn't say they had to award anybody a special prize or anything.

I'm sure the first thing people who are upset about the change was "What the F#$% are they thinking?!" I think people just wanna know.

Turtlewing
05-23-2013, 08:47 AM
I suspect they'll address the issue in an update in a few hours, apologize, and give a token bonus (1 year of Dungeon crawler to all the PP players, not stacking) and a few bonus somethings (1 free pre-release Sealed event for the next 3 sets to GKs).

Then the PP complainers will just bitch that they're adding a PvE reward to a PvP focused tier.

The rational people who are displeased with the change to the value of PP relative to the other tiers would have simply swapped their reward over to whatever one they think is more valuable than their pp.

Though I think there is supposed to be an announcement today that's relevant to the collector tier AA cards, so they might be doing something with those.

Kami
05-23-2013, 08:49 AM
It's not necessary for them to apologize. They did nothing wrong. To apologize from a PR perspective implies they did wrong.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:50 AM
It's not necessary for them to apologize. They did nothing wrong. To apologize from a PR perspective implies they did wrong.

False. To apologize is to acknowledge that they know their actions have caused some unrest within their playerbase.

Since when has an apology absolutely meant that you were admitting you wrong? Especially from a PR perspective; companies do it all the time.

It is necessary if they don't want people to feel even more slighted.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:50 AM
Then the PP complainers will just bitch that they're adding a PvE reward to a PvP focused tier.

The rational people who are displeased with the change to the value of PP relative to the other tiers would have simply swapped their reward over to whatever one they think is more valuable than their pp.

Though I think there is supposed to be an announcement today that's relevant to the collector tier AA cards, so they might be doing something with those.

I said token bonus for a reason.

Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining that their PvE tier got a PvP reward, so I don't expect this to be the case.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 08:51 AM
Yes, however there are potential consequences that we may not be able to see now (or ever). For example, I explained to my friend what happened and he immediately said "Wow, that doesn't seem fair". I then explained how people were upset about it, and he replied "I can understand why". Now, regardless or the validity of the opinions on those side of the fence, the fact I was his only source of information about Hex. I just informed him there was a lot of negativity going on in Hexland. He is now a lot less likely to back Hex. I'd like to stress that I didn't try to influence his opinion at all; the fact that there was negativity surrounding it made him uneasy about the project itself. Sure, he's just one person, but spread over a lot of people... that's a huge amount of potential support CZE just lost. But we're just talking about intangibles here, but you can see my point.



I understand you didn't feel you influenced his opinion but if I explained this situation to 50 people using just the facts I am confident that 45 of them would say something along the lines of - "why the hell are they complaining they didn't lose anything" (and I believe 4 of the 5 wouldn't have been listening).

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:53 AM
I understand you didn't feel you influenced his opinion but if I explained this situation to 50 people using just the facts I am confident that 45 of them would say something along the lines of - "why the hell are they complaining they didn't lose anything" (and I believe 4 of the 5 wouldn't have been listening).

Well first of all, those 45 of them would be wrong because they did in fact lose something - they lost perceived value. Second, the point of my post (read that paragraph again please) is that regardless of what the content is or what stance I take, the simple fact is that the perceived negativity of the situation drove him away. This happens with products and companies all the time.

I think you're arguing from a mind projection fallacy - the world isn't necessarily the way you perceive it to be.

I think it's also worth noting that part of the value of pro player is that it was perceived to be so much better than the other tiers, especially since you're theoretically starting your "advantage" right from the get-go. Now you're starting it a year down the line (if you're still around by then and haven't missed a single week).

Kami
05-23-2013, 08:54 AM
False. To apologize is to acknowledge that they know their actions have caused some unrest within their playerbase.

Since when has an apology absolutely meant that you were admitting you wrong? Especially from a PR perspective; companies do it all the time.

It is necessary if they don't want people to feel even more slighted.

Well in that case: CZE's reply should be: "I'm sorry that Pro Tiers feel their package has been devalued."

Utterly meaningless but would make them happy, right?

Malicus
05-23-2013, 08:55 AM
Well first of all, those 45 of them would be wrong because they did in fact lose something - they lost perceived value. Second, the point of my post (read that paragraph again please) is that regardless of what the content is or what stance I take, the simple fact is that the perceived negativity of the situation drove him away. This happens with products and companies all the time.

But my point is that the negativity was from your explanation not the facts and no one has lost perceived value they have lost comparative value - but if they recalculate they can choose to change tiers so there is no loss.

Daer
05-23-2013, 08:56 AM
Perceived value isn't actual value. A loss of perceived value is your problem, a loss of actual value would be Cryptozoics.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:59 AM
Well in that case: CZE's reply should be: "I'm sorry that Pro Tiers feel their package has been devalued."

Utterly meaningless but would make them happy, right?

No, because then they would come off like a bunch of assholes. #1 rule of every company is to make their customers feel valued. I mean seriously, if you're arguing against me on this point, you should probably get the fuck out of here.

Something along the lines of "We're aware that the recent unveiling of our final stretch goal has caused a lot of controversy.... We didn't intend for this to happen, nor did we intend for people to feel their rewards were less valuable. Our original intention behind the move was X because we thought the effect would be Y" etc. etc. Standard PR bro.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:59 AM
What? For digital goods, perceived value is the actual value.

Only real goods (food, furniture, whatnot) have true actual value.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:01 AM
Perceived value isn't actual value. A loss of perceived value is your problem, a loss of actual value would be Cryptozoics.

I didn't say it wasn't a loss in actual value; it's also a loss in relative value, so yes it actually is a loss in actual value. And you're wrong, both are CZE's problem. Why? Because the direct cause of this whole situation was a change CZE made which led to a loss in perceived value which led to everyone arguing about perceived value vs. actual value. So unless you don't think the forums flooded with this shit is CZE's problem, you have to concede that point.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:01 AM
What? For digital goods, perceived value is the actual value.

Only real goods (food, furniture, whatnot) have true actual value.

Not sure where you are trying to take this argument but let me ask this - do you feel perceived value can be quantified?

If so please quantify the value of Pro prior to the stretch announcement and after and what the reason for any change is.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:03 AM
Also, for an investor perceived value is everything. For people saying this should be looked as a "donations" thing and not an investment is full of shit. First of all, you're investing in the game itself to do well, regardless of the rewards. People are investing in this game because of the perceived value they are getting - more investment = bigger returns. This is especially true for Hex's KS; their entire marketing strategy for the KS is that the more you invest, the bigger your returns are.

For anyone using the donations argument, please tell me where the funding would be at if there were no rewards. Thanks.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:05 AM
I didn't say it wasn't a loss in actual value; it's also a loss in relative value, so yes it actually is a loss in actual value. And you're wrong, both are CZE's problem. Why? Because the direct cause of this whole situation was a change CZE made which led to a loss in perceived value which led to everyone arguing about perceived value vs. actual value. So unless you don't think the forums flooded with this shit is CZE's problem, you have to concede that point.

I think people can be reasoned with and I don't see an issue with discussion.

A change in relative value can come about by a variety of means but in this instance where the value of B is raised while the value of A remains constant does not result in a reduction in actual value of A.

In an instance where A was reduced and B remained the same this would be a reduction in both relative and actual value.

Where A is reduced and B is increased there is a decrease in both relative and actual value.

Where A is increased and B is increased more than A there is a decrease in relative value and an increase in actual value.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:07 AM
Not sure where you are trying to take this argument but let me ask this - do you feel perceived value can be quantified?

If so please quantify the value of Pro prior to the stretch announcement and after and what the reason for any change is.

The value of pro before the change is that, in exchange for foregoing a buff with in immeasurable perceived value (+100% loot drop, +10% exp, +1 card & Raid heal, +6 exclusive cards/year), you instead gain the benefit of something with a measurable perceived value (a buff at the retail price of 52*$7 USD per year). Consequently, anyone who chooses any of the other buffs has to forego receiving the benefit of a the measurable perceived value. Basically a known vs. an unknown. Now that's been taken away; the four buffs with an immeasurable perceived value receive a huge buff that not only pays for the investment by itself, but does not detract from the original buff itself. Consequently, the measurable perceived value buff suffers because in order to come as worthwhile, it basically forgoes its buff for the first year because it becomes strictly worse than the other 4 at the same level for the first 52 weeks.

Kami
05-23-2013, 09:08 AM
No, because then they would come off like a bunch of assholes. #1 rule of every company is to make their customers feel valued. I mean seriously, if you're arguing against me on this point, you should probably get the fuck out of here.

Something along the lines of "We're aware that the recent unveiling of our final stretch goal has caused a lot of controversy.... We didn't intend for this to happen, nor did we intend for people to feel their rewards were less valuable. Our original intention behind the move was X because we thought the effect would be Y" etc. etc. Standard PR bro.

You do realize your example is essentially the same as mine but more wordy, right? Long story short, not admitting fault and basically telling the people affected that it's too bad they feel that way.

And no, the #1 rule of every company is not to make their customers feel valued. This is a myth.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:08 AM
I think people can be reasoned with and I don't see an issue with discussion.

A change in relative value can come about by a variety of means but in this instance where the value of B is raised while the value of A remains constant does not result in a reduction in actual value of A.

In an instance where A was reduced and B remained the same this would be a reduction in both relative and actual value.

Where A is reduced and B is increased there is a decrease in both relative and actual value.

Where A is increased and B is increased more than A there is a decrease in relative value and an increase in actual value.

Please read the gold nugget example a few pages back.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:09 AM
You do realize your example is essentially the same as mine but more wordy, right? Long story short, not admitting fault and basically telling the people affected that it's too bad they feel that way.

And no, the #1 rule of every company is not to make their customers feel valued. This is a myth.

If I feel hex doesn't give a shit about its players, then I'm going to pull my funding. So will a lot of other people. This is not a myth.

Or better yet, do you want hex to feel that you are a valued customer?

First link on google search "should a company make customers feel valued?"
http://www.unitiv.com/intelligent-help-desk-blog/bid/34014/Six-Ways-to-Make-Customers-Feel-Important

Talreth
05-23-2013, 09:09 AM
And no, the #1 rule of every company is not to make their customers feel valued. This is a myth.

SW Airlines has employees first.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 09:10 AM
if i feel hex doesn't give a shit about its players, then i'm going to pull my funding. So will a lot of other people. This is not a myth.

if you're not first you're last!

Kami
05-23-2013, 09:12 AM
If I feel hex doesn't give a shit about its players, then I'm going to pull my funding. So will a lot of other people. This is not a myth.

Or better yet, do you want hex to feel that you are a valued customer?

First link on google search "should a company make customers feel valued?"
http://www.unitiv.com/intelligent-help-desk-blog/bid/34014/Six-Ways-to-Make-Customers-Feel-Important

There is a difference between making their clients happy and being their clients' b****.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
what a stupid post..the people who complain about last stretch are just haters and ignorants.

:" Oh I dont have a tablet , whats in it for me???".

I hope this "controversy" will lead all of this people away from this game and also the :"Oh no, my PP tier is now less valuable, dammit, let me rage on forums!!" Hope they go aswell

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
The value of pro before the change is that, in exchange for foregoing a buff with in immeasurable perceived value (+100% loot drop, +10% exp, +1 card & Raid heal, +6 exclusive cards/year), you instead gain the benefit of something with a measurable perceived value (a buff at the retail price of 52*$7 USD per year). Consequently, anyone who chooses any of the other buffs has to forego receiving the benefit of a the measurable perceived value. Basically a known vs. an unknown. Now that's been taken away; the four buffs with an immeasurable perceived value receive a huge buff that not only pays for the investment by itself, but does not detract from the original buff itself. Consequently, the measurable perceived value buff suffers because in order to come as worthwhile, it basically forgoes its buff for the first year because it becomes strictly worse than the other 4 at the same level for the first 52 weeks.

You cannot say it ignores its buff then count the buff as a positive for the other side. The only valid comparison is Lifetime-1yr Draft vs Other Tier Reward. Or Lifetime Draft vs 1yr Draft + Other Tier Reward.

Now the value attached to either side of that question is up to an individual but importantly they can recalculate this other side and compare it to their initial evaluation of the Pro Tier as it simply has not changed. If you initially valued Pro as X it is still X. The alternatives however need to be reevaluated and your highest priority rechosen (but and this I cannot stress enough) which you can do.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:14 AM
There is a difference between making their clients happy and being their clients' b****.

And how will their clients feel happy if they feel slighted, voiced numerous complaints, and aren't even acknowledged? Again you fail to explain how issuing an apology makes them "weak" or "their bitch". Seriously, get the fuck out of here.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:15 AM
You cannot say it ignores its buff then count the buff as a positive for the other side. The only valid comparison is Lifetime-1yr Draft vs Other Tier Reward. Or Lifetime Draft vs 1yr Draft + Other Tier Reward.

Now the value attached to either side of that question is up to an individual but importantly they can recalculate this other side and compare it to their initial evaluation of the Pro Tier as it simply has not changed. If you initially valued Pro as X it is still X. The alternatives however need to be reevaluated and your highest priority rechosen (but and this I cannot stress enough) which you can do.

Gold nugget example.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 09:16 AM
And how will their clients feel happy if they feel slighted, voiced numerous complaints, and aren't even acknowledged? Again you fail to explain how issuing an apology makes them "weak" or "their bitch". Seriously, get the fuck out of here.

Whoa bro, calm down. Really.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:16 AM
I like companies that dont acknowledged retards..I hope these customers will leave this game ,-) This is f2p there will be enough kids/adults to substite them. Always.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:16 AM
what a stupid post..the people who complain about last stretch are just haters and ignorants.

:" Oh I dont have a tablet , whats in it for me???".

I hope this "controversy" will lead all of this people away from this game and also the :"Oh no, my PP tier is now less valuable, dammit, let me rage on forums!!" Hope they go aswell

You sound like the ignorant one; the one who doesn't even attempt to understand the issue or empathize with others.

Daer
05-23-2013, 09:17 AM
And how will their clients feel happy if they feel slighted, voiced numerous complaints, and aren't even acknowledged? Again you fail to explain how issuing an apology makes them "weak" or "their bitch". Seriously, get the fuck out of here.

Their clients don't feel slighted, only a very small vocal minority do. The vast majority of their clients are perfectly fine.

Kami
05-23-2013, 09:18 AM
And how will their clients feel happy if they feel slighted, voiced numerous complaints, and aren't even acknowledged? Again you fail to explain how issuing an apology makes them "weak" or "their bitch". Seriously, get the fuck out of here.

Because unlike you and many others who view this objectively (i.e. Pro Tier and GK have not lost value), we don't think that CZE has done anything wrong and therefore does not need to apologize.

If you want to pull your funding because you feel slighted, that's your prerogative. I'm sure someone will take your place who doesn't feel the same way.

Right now, the people complaining about how their 'package' has been devalued are clamoring for a 'fix' to further increase their benefits with no further investment to CZE. This in itself reeks of trying to making CZE their b****.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:18 AM
You sound like the ignorant one; the one who doesn't even attempt to understand the issue or empathize with others.

Yep I dont like to empathize with stupid over non-existing problem with a game that has not yet even been released. Please stay away from this forum. Thanks

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:19 AM
Because unlike you and many others who view this objectively (i.e. Pro Tier and GK have not lost value), we don't think that CZE has done anything wrong and therefore does not need to apologize.

If you want to pull your funding because you feel slighted, that's your prerogative. I'm sure someone will take your place who doesn't feel the same way.

Right now, the people complaining about how their 'package' has been devalued are clamoring for a 'fix' to further increase their benefits with no further investment to CZE. This in itself reeks of trying to making CZE their b****.

When have I stated the following:
1. That I feel slighted
2. That I will pull my funding if/when/because I feel slighted

#Strawman

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:20 AM
Yep I dont like to empathize with stupid over non-existing problem with a game that has not yet even been released. Please stay away from this forum. Thanks

So you're okay with CZE taking your money and not providing you with a game, because if it never exists then it can never be a problem?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:20 AM
Their clients don't feel slighted, only a very small vocal minority do. The vast majority of their clients are perfectly fine.

Where do you get these numbers from?

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:20 AM
Please read the gold nugget example a few pages back.

The gold nugget example was flawed in that you were given an object whose value was in its uniqueness and then you suggest it loses value when its uniqueness is gone - this is true but does not relate to the current situation.

If we were to equate this to gold nuggets it would be more appropriate to say - you both give me $250 and then you can have one gram of gold a day - A for life and B for a year but B also gets a discount on mule rides.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 09:22 AM
Because unlike you and many others who view this objectively (i.e. Pro Tier and GK have not lost value), we don't think that CZE has done anything wrong and therefore does not need to apologize.

If you want to pull your funding because you feel slighted, that's your prerogative. I'm sure someone will take your place who doesn't feel the same way.

Right now, the people complaining about how their 'package' has been devalued are clamoring for a 'fix' to further increase their benefits with no further investment to CZE. This in itself reeks of trying to making CZE their b****.

Okay the problem is that you and Jugan are arguing about two different kinds of value. Objective (basically cash) value, and perceived or relative value. The main point of contention that I see is that you are both arguing for your value as the only one that can exist, whereas I think objective value and relative value exist simultaneously. It is true that the objective value of PP and GK did not go down, however the relative value of the tiers did decrease. It is not objectively worth less money since the update, but it is relatively worth less due to the buffing of other tiers.

Kami
05-23-2013, 09:23 AM
When have I stated the following:
1. That I feel slighted
2. That I will pull my funding if/when/because I feel slighted

#Strawman


If I feel hex doesn't give a shit about its players, then I'm going to pull my funding.

Notice how we're all using 'if'? Perhaps you should read more carefully.


If you want to pull your funding because you feel slighted, that's your prerogative. I'm sure someone will take your place who doesn't feel the same way.


Okay the problem is that you and Jugan are arguing about two different kinds of value. Objective (basically cash) value, and perceived or relative value. The main point of contention that I see is that you are both arguing for your value as the only one that can exist, whereas I think objective value and relative value exist simultaneously. It is true that the objective value of PP and GK did not go down, however the relative value of the tiers did decrease. It is not objectively worth less money since the update, but it is relatively worth less due to the buffing of other tiers.

I've made it very clear that those of us looking at this objectively see nothing wrong.

Daer
05-23-2013, 09:26 AM
Okay the problem is that you and Jugan are arguing about two different kinds of value. Objective (basically cash) value, and perceived or relative value. The main point of contention that I see is that you are both arguing for your value as the only one that can exist, whereas I think objective value and relative value exist simultaneously. It is true that the objective value of PP and GK did not go down, however the relative value of the tiers did decrease. It is not objectively worth less money since the update, but it is relatively worth less due to the buffing of other tiers.

Even if it is relatively worth less overall the value of PP and GK are still worth more then the other tiers.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:26 AM
You sound like the ignorant one; the one who doesn't even attempt to understand the issue or empathize with others.

If you feel someone is wrong and can mathematically prove that their arguments are wrong then it can become somewhat frustrating and difficult to empathize with them. I cannot argue with how someone "feels" but it is a mathematical fact that the value of Pro Tier should not be affected by this change. The value of the other tiers has most definitely changed - some may "feel" they are now worth more than Pro, but this should be a cause for rejoicing as they can now get a more valuable tier by changing to it.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 09:26 AM
I've made it very clear that those of us looking at this objectively see nothing wrong.

Yes but that doesn't mean you are being objective in your analysis, only that you are looking at it from the standpoint of objective value.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 09:30 AM
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Whatever tier you pledged at either:

1) Hasn't changed
2) Became more enticing

No one has "lost" anything. If you're complaining about the other tiers getting buffed up (for a YEAR, not a LIFETIME, if you don't understand how short a year is, you're a child who still thinks Summer Vacation is Never Ending), you're spoiled. You're still getting everything that Crypto promised you. Actually, you're getting more because every stretch is just ICING. No one should feel "let down" about a stretch goal, because they were ALWAYS just bonuses. Tablet support is a Legendary Goal because it's a HUGE development in the game. Not even Magic has tablet support for Magic Online, and they are the biggest TCG in the WORLD.

Seriously, if you're mad about other tiers getting buffed (for a YEAR) then I don't even want you in the game anyway. You don't realize that was an AWESOME move (And, EXACTLY what many people asked for, read the comments in the days before the update happened) this, how it will expand the player base, and get us closer to tablet support (Which, again, even if it doesn't effect you directly expands the player base and the tablet base is an incredibly fast growing and already large market).

It's ALL gravy, stop whining. Every argument against the buff boils down to "But now MINE isn't as GOOD anymore!" which is A) false; because a year is not a lifetime and B) Selfish. Knock it off. Share. Grow up. Transcend.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:31 AM
The gold nugget example was flawed in that you were given an object whose value was in its uniqueness and then you suggest it loses value when its uniqueness is gone - this is true but does not relate to the current situation.

If we were to equate this to gold nuggets it would be more appropriate to say - you both give me $250 and then you can have one gram of gold a day - A for life and B for a year but B also gets a discount on mule rides.

Okay, I was being lazy, I admit. I could give you a different one that similar, but it's difficult to apply a direct example; I think the uniqueness of this topic speaks for itself.

Anyway, the lazy form of an analogy is twofold. First, if a certain set of people sign up for a particular service under the perceived notion that they will be the only people that will receive that service, there's not only value in the service but in the exclusivity of it as well. If that same service is given out to other people, then the value of exclusivity of that service goes down because other people have access to it. The second part is that if the other people who are receiving your service as well had the same entry fee and on top of that are receiving extra services on top of that, then in turn the value of your service becomes diminished because as a whole your cost to that service is diminished.

If person A pays $100 for service 1, and person B pays $100 for service 1, 2, and 3, then it's obvious person B is getting a better deal. Now I realize that assumes person A and person B get the same services for the same amount of time; however, in the topic we are discussing, it is hard to quantify because all the other tiers now have a tangible value + a perceived value that's not quantifiable at this time. If the 6 exclusive cards to the collector tier outweigh the value of the 52 free drafts per year every single year, then the collector tier comes out farrrr ahead of the pro tier on top of the fact that they got the pro tier's benefit for the first year.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:31 AM
Even if it is relatively worth less overall the value of PP and GK are still worth more then the other tiers.

You don't even need to go that far. You just need to ask the question - Is it a big deal that someone else gets a better deal if mine is not worse? If the answer is Yes then nothing can really be done about this as I don't really understand that thinking.

This is the only place for relative value to exist other than if you see the value of higher tiers being greater than Pro but in that case you can switch so there is also no problem as you benefit from the change. There is no scenario where you are detrimentally affected by the stretch goal unless you somehow feel pain from others getting increased value.

Kami
05-23-2013, 09:32 AM
Yes but that doesn't mean you are being objective in your analysis, only that you are looking at it from the standpoint of objective value.

Well if that's the case, then Pro Tiers/GK should just move on to the other tiers, yes? Since if they feel (i.e. subjectively) that it's no longer that great and other tiers are definitely better then they should go ahead and make the switch.

Otherwise, I see no reason for complaint. I'd rather see other tiers brought up and everyone gains.

On the other hand, if they had added limitations to Pro Tiers/GK that'd be a different story.

I fail to see how this is not objective.

And I'm the one sitting at a higher tier when multi-pledges became common. Know what I did? I sucked it up because in the end, I lose nothing.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:33 AM
So you're okay with CZE taking your money and not providing you with a game, because if it never exists then it can never be a problem?


Please you are completely way off I dont even know what are you still babling about. CZE didnt took my money I gave it to them. I think this is some psychological kind of switch in your brain, that somebody is taking something from you, nonexisting values, nonexisting numbers of people.

Kickstarter is based on trust and project may fail. It is up to your sanitiy to measure this "fail" propability and yes you are not entitled to anything. We are not in supermarket here if you dont get it I cant help you.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:33 AM
Even if it is relatively worth less overall the value of PP and GK are still worth more then the other tiers.

You can't definitively say that though. What if +100% loot drop or 6 exclusive cards per year is worth more than 52 free drafts per year that you have to actually claim every week? Promo wasteland on magic online is being bought for $350+ by vendors. Just sayin'

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:35 AM
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Whatever tier you pledged at either:
Seriously, if you're mad about other tiers getting buffed (for a YEAR) then I don't even want you in the game anyway.

Exactly. Free that one pro or whatever you pledged and bye bye.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:35 AM
Okay, I was being lazy, I admit. I could give you a different one that similar, but it's difficult to apply a direct example; I think the uniqueness of this topic speaks for itself.

Anyway, the lazy form of an analogy is twofold. First, if a certain set of people sign up for a particular service under the perceived notion that they will be the only people that will receive that service, there's not only value in the service but in the exclusivity of it as well. If that same service is given out to other people, then the value of exclusivity of that service goes down because other people have access to it. The second part is that if the other people who are receiving your service as well had the same entry fee and on top of that are receiving extra services on top of that, then in turn the value of your service becomes diminished because as a whole your cost to that service is diminished.

If person A pays $100 for service 1, and person B pays $100 for service 1, 2, and 3, then it's obvious person B is getting a better deal. Now I realize that assumes person A and person B get the same services for the same amount of time; however, in the topic we are discussing, it is hard to quantify because all the other tiers now have a tangible value + a perceived value that's not quantifiable at this time. If the 6 exclusive cards to the collector tier outweigh the value of the 52 free drafts per year every single year, then the collector tier comes out farrrr ahead of the pro tier on top of the fact that they got the pro tier's benefit for the first year.

So your argument boils down to "we don't know which is better anymore?", you evaluate the tiers and decide what is best for you, if you are arguing this is a little harder now I totally agree but if you want to argue this is bad then we are going to disagree.


I will apologise if my tone has gotten somewhat more snappish I it is now 4:30 am and I planned to sleep some time ago but have enjoyed this discussion.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:37 AM
So your argument boils down to "we don't know which is better anymore?", you evaluate the tiers and decide what is best for you, if you are arguing this is a little harder now I totally agree but if you want to argue this is bad then we are going to disagree.


I will apologise if my tone has gotten somewhat more snappish I it is now 4:30 am and I planned to sleep some time ago but have enjoyed this discussion.

No, that's not what I was stating. You need to go back and read my posts more thoroughly.

Furthermore, I think the argument on who gets more value should be a moot one at best; I think the bigger issue the fact that this is a PR blunder for CZE no matter how you cut it.

houjix
05-23-2013, 09:39 AM
You can't definitively say that though. What if +100% loot drop or 6 exclusive cards per year is worth more than 52 free drafts per year that you have to actually claim every week? Promo wasteland on magic online is being bought for $350+ by vendors. Just sayin'

Speculative value vs known value. Just sayin'.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 09:40 AM
Lol this post is so hilarious

as Jugan says..what a PR BLUNDER!!! 4000 spots got more value and 1000 lost! The Majority is gonna be pissed?! Right? RIGHT? What a pr blunder truly.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:40 AM
Speculative value vs known value. Just sayin'.

Yeah, read the post I was replying to. It was someone definitively stating that pro player is better than every other tier in terms of value when in reality that's not necessarily true.

nearlysober
05-23-2013, 09:41 AM
On Tuesday you were more than happy with your Pro Pledge. You were probably thrilled to be locked in at a tier no one else could get due to sell outs.

On Wednesday they helped out some other tiers to make sales.
They didn't give them what you have.
They didn't take away what you have.
And now you're upset. Upset that someone else has something sorta nice (not as nice as what you have!) but you want it too!

There is no controversy, just a problem with you.

You're being selfish and childish. If you think the other tiers are better, switch now before they sell out. Otherwise, shut up.

This game will be great.
It will probably be greater without backers like you.

Daer
05-23-2013, 09:41 AM
Yeah, read the post I was replying to. It was someone definitively stating that pro player is better than every other tier in terms of value when in reality that's not necessarily true.

Look at the number of pledges for each tier.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:42 AM
Look at the number of pledges for each tier.

That literally is evidence for nothing except how many people pledge to each tier.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:43 AM
On Tuesday you were more than happy with your Pro Pledge. You were probably thrilled to be locked in at a tier no one else could get due to sell outs.

On Wednesday they helped out some other tiers to make sales. And now you're upset.

There is no controversy, just a problem with you.

You're being selfish and childish. If you think the other tiers are better, switch now before they sell out. Otherwise, shut up crybaby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:43 AM
No, that's not what I was stating. You need to go back and read my posts more thoroughly.

Furthermore, I think the argument on who gets more value should be a moot one at best; I think the bigger issue the fact that this is a PR blunder for CZE no matter how you cut it.

You keep telling people to reread things expecting a change in how it is understood this is rarely how things work, if you want me to better understand your point you will need to explain how this is not the case.

I agree this could potentially be a PR blunder except that the player base in general so far has reacted (granted in my opinion) sensibly and tried to explain what are essentially misconceptions about this stretch to those who are complaining. I see no reason why we cannot solve this "PR nightmare" through threads such as this where it is clearly outlined that nothing is lost - other tiers are available if you prefer them and any new pledges are good for the game.

Daer
05-23-2013, 09:44 AM
That literally is evidence for nothing except how many people pledge to each tier.

It literally is evidence of the perceived value of each tier.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:45 AM
You keep telling people to reread things expecting a change in how it is understood this is rarely how things work, if you want me to better understand your point you will need to explain how this is not the case.

I agree this could potentially be a PR blunder except that the player base in general so far has reacted (granted in my opinion) sensibly and tried to explain what are essentially misconceptions about this stretch to those who are complaining. I see no reason why we cannot solve this "PR nightmare" through threads such as this where it is clearly outlined that nothing is lost - other tiers are available if you prefer them and any new pledges are good for the game.

I disagree when you say "nothing is lost", but I don't care if you agree with me or not. The main point I've been trying to make is that this is a PR blunder and that there are negative consequences for that; I'm not going to keep re-explaining things for you just because you're too lazy to go back and read old posts.

houjix
05-23-2013, 09:45 AM
That literally is evidence for nothing except how many people pledge to each tier.

No, it is literally evidence to what people think are the tiers with true monetary value. Those tiers are money market accounts with guaranteed rate of return. The others are stocks with shakey outlooks at best.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:46 AM
It literally is evidence of the perceived value of each tier.

That's not necessarily true either.

nearlysober
05-23-2013, 09:46 AM
Speak with your wallet. It's the only language corporations understand.

If you're unhappy: Drop your pledge. I'm sure CZE PR will see the error in their ways, chase you down and make it all better.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:48 AM
No, it is literally evidence to what people think are the tiers with true monetary value. Those tiers are money market accounts with guranteed rate of return. The others are stocks with shakey outlooks at best.

I wouldn't necessarily say that all the others are shakey, but I'd agree on a stock analogy. The other thing to note is that these numbers are not necessarily reflective of the investor's opinion after the change; meaning people may not know about the change so they haven't change yet, or people are unsure and want to play "wait and see", etc.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 09:49 AM
WHAT A PR BLUNDER! KICKSTARTER MAKES 4x REQUESTED GOAL COMPLETELY FUCKS UP

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 09:51 AM
Company does exactly what customers asked for, pr blunder heard around the world.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 09:51 AM
WHAT A PR BLUNDER! KICKSTARTER MAKES 4x REQUESTED GOAL COMPLETELY FUCKS UP

bad troll is bad.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 09:52 AM
Man child uses buzz word he heard somewhere, wrongly applies it on tcgmmo forum!

Malicus
05-23-2013, 09:57 AM
I disagree when you say "nothing is lost", but I don't care if you agree with me or not. The main point I've been trying to make is that this is a PR blunder and that there are negative consequences for that; I'm not going to keep re-explaining things for you just because you're too lazy to go back and read old posts.

Your premise of bad PR is based on the premise that value has been lost - most people who knee jerk this once the reality has been explained will see they have not and be quite satisfied, I am confident there is enough info in these threads that lurkers can get the answers they need.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:05 AM
Your premise of bad PR is based on the premise that value has been lost - most people who knee jerk this once the reality has been explained will see they have not and be quite satisfied, I am confident there is enough info in these threads that lurkers can get the answers they need.

My argument of bad PR is based on the fact that there are people who feel slighted about the change. If you can't see it with the numerous examples I've given you already, then this is the last one I'm providing for you.

Say a magical little fairy gave you the power to magically change all the posts debating about the changes that occurred in the past 24 hours to constructive posts about the game itself and guilds or whatever you want. Would Hex and CZE be better off if you chose to do so? If your answer is yes, then it very clearly a PR blunder because the only reason people are discussing the change is because CZE made the change in the first place. If you answer no, then you're deluding yourself :)

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:07 AM
When have I stated the following:
1. That I feel slighted
2. That I will pull my funding if/when/because I feel slighted

#Strawman

If you don't feel slighted what why exactly are you posting about this? If you were fine with anything then you wouldn't post about it in the first place. People are allowed to make logical inferences from your posts.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 10:07 AM
Jugan, the last 4 or 5 pages of this thread have been nothing but you speaking your side of the discussion, and everyone else retorting with opinions opposite from yours. There is no huge vocal minority riding the controversy coattails here except you.

Pro Players have not lost a dime. The average time it took for a PP to pay for his pledge prior to the change is the exact same as it is now. I pledged Grand King x2, and the time it will take for me to pay for mine is exactly twice that of a PP. By adding the incentive to the other tiers, it gives them a chance to sell out as well. They too are now cheaper in the long run than paying for 52 drafts. The only reason why there is controversy over this is because people were attached to their "unique" perk. By adding this option they have cost those who previously pledged absolutely nothing (except for exclusivity of their bonus), and in return they have provided a means to generate more revenue, which will result in tablet support, which will result in more longevity for this game. This small incentive now will actually make it more likely that those who have pledged will get more value out of their perks simply by making this game more likely to survive.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Jugan, the last 4 or 5 pages of this thread have been nothing but you speaking your side of the discussion, and everyone else retorting with opinions opposite from yours. There is no huge vocal minority riding the controversy coattails here except you.

Yes, because an opinion that is contrary to what society's perceived opinion is must be wrong. Furthermore, I never stated what I felt my personal opinion to be, outside of the opinion that CZE made a PR blunder. GG.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:12 AM
My argument of bad PR is based on the fact that there are people who feel slighted about the change. If you can't see it with the numerous examples I've given you already, then this is the last one I'm providing for you.

Say a magical little fairy gave you the power to magically change all the posts debating about the changes that occurred in the past 24 hours to constructive posts about the game itself and guilds or whatever you want. Would Hex and CZE be better off if you chose to do so? If your answer is yes, then it very clearly a PR blunder because the only reason people are discussing the change is because CZE made the change in the first place. If you answer no, then you're deluding yourself :)

By this logic CZE shouldn't do anything ever because it might cause bad PR.

Mahes
05-23-2013, 10:12 AM
The more time I have thought about this, the happier I am glad it happened.

How a company handles a complaint says a lot about a company. Do they ignore the vocal ones or do they choose to perhaps discusss thier intentions? Given that real money is involved after the initial launch, it will be good to see how the company handles this situation.

I would also like to point out that I imagine that players are waiting on the response before considering any actions to take. This is why the Kickstarter is not going down. Players have until June 7th to finalize thier descisions.

The Kickstarter is not a success until the money locks, then they can claim victory and pop the champagne.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
By this logic CZE shouldn't do anything ever because it might cause bad PR.

Fallacy.

houjix
05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
Yes, because an opinion that is contrary to what society's perceived opinion is must be wrong. Furthermore, I never stated what I felt my personal opinion to be, outside of the opinion that CZE made a PR blunder. GG.

So you're feelling the need to White Knight because...

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
Yes, because an opinion that is contrary to what society's perceived opinion is must be wrong. Furthermore, I never stated what I felt my personal opinion to be, outside of the opinion that CZE made a PR blunder. GG.

Call

What is your position then?

It is pretty obvious you are against this but apparently you need to spell it out otherwise it doesn't count.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
So you're feelling the need to White Knight because...

You're misusing the term "White Knight".

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
Fallacy.

Just saying something doesn't make it true. If what I said is a fallacy then you should be able to say why.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
Yes, because an opinion that is contrary to what society's perceived opinion is must be wrong. Furthermore, I never stated what I felt my personal opinion to be, outside of the opinion that CZE made a PR blunder. GG.

You are claiming that there is a huge controversy that a substantial minority of the forum's population is engaging in. THAT is your personal opinion, which you have stated. Nobody else on the forum has felt strongly enough to jump into this thread (which is constantly being bumped) to voice their support of your side of this discussion as this thread progresses. This particular thread is bringing more light to the "controversy" than the so-called controversy itself.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:15 AM
Call

What is your position then?

It is pretty obvious you are against this but apparently you need to spell it out otherwise it doesn't count.

I'm against the manner in which CZE released the change and think it was a mistake.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:15 AM
Jugan, you're a super annoying dude and not good at arguing. I hope the only game you play in September is solitaire, so no one has to deal with you.

houjix
05-23-2013, 10:15 AM
You're misusing the term "White Knight".

Fine, being a pain in the butt because...

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 10:15 AM
bad troll is bad.

You are the troll. Stupid post... all of it.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 10:17 AM
Well if that's the case, then Pro Tiers/GK should just move on to the other tiers, yes? Since if they feel (i.e. subjectively) that it's no longer that great and other tiers are definitely better then they should go ahead and make the switch.

Otherwise, I see no reason for complaint. I'd rather see other tiers brought up and everyone gains.

On the other hand, if they had added limitations to Pro Tiers/GK that'd be a different story.

I fail to see how this is not objective.

And I'm the one sitting at a higher tier when multi-pledges became common. Know what I did? I sucked it up because in the end, I lose nothing.

I mean, I think they should just move if they feel that way. And I know you sucked it up and even increased your pledge like what 3x, 4x? But the reason for complaint is that the tier they had pledged lost relative value and now they feel that they have to switch even though they wanted that tier, or something. It's selfish in nature. If only we were all Kamis it'd be ok, no sarcasm

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:17 AM
Just saying something doesn't make it true. If what I said is a fallacy then you should be able to say why.

Because your premise and conclusion don't match up. You're using my argument as your premise, but have changed the premise of my argument to match your conclusion.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:18 AM
Jugan, you're a super annoying dude and not good at arguing. I hope the only game you play in September is solitaire, so no one has to deal with you.

I've actually placed in the top 32 of world's circuit of collegiate debate at nationally ranked tournaments. If I play Solitaire in vegas, then the deal has to deal me cards, so yes there would still be people dealing with and to me.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:18 AM
I'm against the manner in which CZE released the change and think it was a mistake.

1) I'm against the manner in which CZE released the change.

Why? You're against the fact that they released it in a daily update, which is how they have been updating us the whole time? You are upset they did it via the last stretch goal? Be clear with what you're saying, dude.

2) think it was a mistake.

Why? What was a mistake? The changes or the way they did it? Why were the changes bad? In what way?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:19 AM
1) I'm against the manner in which CZE released the change.

Why? You're against the fact that they released it in a daily update, which is how they have been updating us the whole time? You are upset they did it via the last stretch goal? Be clear with what you're saying, dude.

2) think it was a mistake.

Why? What was a mistake? The changes or the way they did it? Why were the changes bad? In what way?

Read the thread.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:20 AM
I've actually placed in the top 32 of world's circuit of collegiate debate at nationally ranked tournaments. If I play Solitaire in vegas, then the deal has to deal me cards, so yes there would still be people dealing with and to me.

I'm sure when you were 11 your dad also got you a copy of Super Mario 7 when he toured the Nintendo factory on his business trip to Japan. Go blow some more smoke in an enclosed space and suffocate, you mosquito.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:20 AM
Fine, being a pain in the butt because...

Claiming to be devil's advocate but being very vague about his own position is a bit of a mouthful.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:20 AM
I'm sure when you were 11 your dad also got you a copy of Super Mario 7 when he toured the Nintendo factory on his business trip to Japan. Go blow some more smoke in an enclosed space and suffocate, you mosquito.

ad Hominem

Also I don't think Super Mario 7 was released when I was 11. My father is racist against Japanese.

edit:Is Super Mario 7 real? I don't even know.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:21 AM
Claiming to be devil's advocate but being very vague about his own position is a bit of a mouthful.

Good thing I don't need my mouth empty in order to type.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
I've actually placed in the top 32 of world's circuit of collegiate debate at nationally ranked tournaments. If I play Solitaire in vegas, then the deal has to deal me cards, so yes there would still be people dealing with and to me.

Man american debating events must be a joke. Your arguments are embarrassing and just involve shouting louder and louder.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
ad Hominem


Just stating words like this and fallacy are why your penis is lonely and everyone argues about which degree of autism you have whenever you leave a room.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
Can I agree with both sides? Relative value was lost but PP should just suck it up and swap if they want, objective value remains the same, don't think CZE needs to apologize.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
Man american debating events must be a joke. Your arguments are embarrassing and just involve shouting louder and louder.

I didn't realize you could hear the tone of my voice through text.

Also, ad Hominem.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
Just stating words like this and fallacy are why your penis is lonely and everyone argues about which degree of autism you have whenever you leave a room.

ad hominem

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:24 AM
Read the thread.

People keep asking you what your position is and you keep evading. I guess this is a debating tactic.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:24 AM
Can I agree with both sides? Relative value was lost but PP should just suck it up and swap if they want, objective value remains the same, don't think CZE needs to apologize.

I think they should; what do they lose from an apology that comes off as sincere?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:24 AM
People keep asking you what your position is and you keep evading. I guess this is a debating tactic.

ad Hominem.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 10:24 AM
People keep asking you what your position is and you keep evading. I guess this is a debating tactic.

He already said it, lol can't even read.

@Jugan I'm not sure the apology they would issue. I'm sorry you lost relative value but it was for the good of the game/KS? I find it hard to think that they didn't foresee the value loss of PP tier by giving its exact (and really only) benefit to the other tiers for an entire year. A year is a really long time. I dunno, the KS tier system was a good idea with the like different focuses but I feel it has become so much of a fiasco it's hard to deal with acceptably.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:25 AM
He already said it, lol can't even read.

:)

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 10:26 AM
People keep asking you what your position is and you keep evading. I guess this is a debating tactic.

You don't get top 32 in the world at debating, by actually having a valid position. You get it by evading what your position really is, indefinitely.

jai151
05-23-2013, 10:26 AM
I think they should; what do they lose from an apology that comes off as sincere?

They admit there's something worth apologizing for.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:26 AM
Jugan, please go adjust your fedora or count your BitCoins, you're terrible.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:27 AM
I didn't realize you could hear the tone of my voice through text.

Also, ad Hominem.

You brought up the bragging and miserable appeal to authority. I can make logical inferences from your posts without it being ad hom. You just keep repeating yourself and claiming everyone else is wrong.

I'm not sure what part of this is a personal attack as the louder part is clearly about your arguments and you brough up the debating thing.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:27 AM
You don't get top 32 in the world at debating, by actually having a valid position. You get it by evading what your position really is, indefinitely.

ad Hominem

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:28 AM
ad Hominem.

WTF do you think ad hom is? Anyone who disagrees with you? Anyone who calls you out on evading?

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 10:28 AM
ad Hominem

sorry, don't know what that means, I wasn't in the top 32.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:28 AM
They admit there's something worth apologizing for.

There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

Even if there is a downside to admitting there's something worth apologizing for, I think the harms are mitigated and outweighed by #3.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:29 AM
He already said it, lol can't even read.

As it is so clear to you what is his position, what does he want done about this problem?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:29 AM
sorry, don't know what that means, I wasn't in the top 32.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

You have made me upset therefore you should be apologizing to me right now. Whether you are right or wrong apparently doesn't matter.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

I'm not sure your first point is something I would consider warranting an apology. Being a game dev is like being the president, somebody will ALWAYS be upset.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks

Maybe you should try reading that link too.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
609

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure your first point is something I would consider warranting an apology. Being a game dev is like being the president, somebody will ALWAYS be upset.

I think this is different, but I'm not going to get into that because I wrote a few posts on that a couple pages back. But I think it's particularly helpful if there's an explanation offered with it. Usually people are okay with things if there's an explanation that goes with it. Ex: "Our intention wasn't to devalue X, but to help promote Y". etc. etc.

A lot of times people are more interested in the thought process behind an action vs. the actual action itself.

jai151
05-23-2013, 10:32 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

There were far more upset previously at the tier imbalance. The people currently upset are a minority. They proved they cared about what their supporters think when they changed the tiers.

To apologize now is not putting their best foot forward.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:32 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

Even if there is a downside to admitting there's something worth apologizing for, I think the harms are mitigated and outweighed by #3.

3) They do care about what their customers want. That's why they added free drafts to the other tiers, because many people were suggesting it as a way to make them more appealing. You're dumb. Please go punch your dad in the balls for me because I am furious at his dick for making you.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:33 AM
3) They do care about what their customers want. That's why they added free drafts to the other tiers, because many people were suggesting it as a way to make them more appealing. You're dumb. Please go punch your dad in the balls for me because I am furious at his dick for making you.

So you're saying that they shouldn't issue a statement of apology or a statement of explanation as to why they made the change because they already threw free stuff at people?

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:34 AM
Because your premise and conclusion don't match up. You're using my argument as your premise, but have changed the premise of my argument to match your conclusion.

This is a classic example of debating tactic. Rather than say what I did you use as many words like premise and conclusion to make it as hard as possible to understand what you are saying.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:35 AM
There were far more upset previously at the tier imbalance. The people currently upset are a minority. They proved they cared about what their supporters think when they changed the tiers.

To apologize now is not putting their best foot forward.

Can you provide me with any evidence of assertion that more people were upset before vs. now? Can you also show me why that maters? Can you explain how changing the tiers shows that they care about people (vs. caring about getting more money, etc.)?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:36 AM
This is a classic example of debating tactic. Rather than say what I did you use as many words like premise and conclusion to make it as hard as possible to understand what you are saying.

It's not hard to understand if you know what a premise and a conclusion is.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:36 AM
So you're saying that they shouldn't issue a statement of apology or a statement of explanation as to why they made the change because they already threw free stuff at people?

They shouldn't have to say sorry after they announce anything ever in case someone was unhappy. Even if they did this it would quickly become meaningless.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:37 AM
It's not hard to understand if you know what a premise and a conclusion is.

I like how you switch from complaining about ad hom to making your own.

Also notice how I don't bother addressing your point by just complaining about ad hom!

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 10:39 AM
ah whatever, I am outta of here..evcaute the ship and let captain top 32 sink with it...

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:39 AM
They shouldn't have to say sorry after they announce anything ever in case someone was unhappy. Even if they did this it would quickly become meaningless.

Nobody said anything about "have to"; that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether it would be a good move for CZE to issue a statement and/or apology.

Can you show me any evidence that people will not care that CZE is showing them that they do care? People who play league of legends remember that Riot Games has given out numerous tokens of apology even when they didn't have to apology in the first place. Riot Games still does issue apologies and even small tokens in the form of in game currency or skins or whatnot in addition to an official statement of apology. People appreciate that.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 10:39 AM
My argument of bad PR is based on the fact that there are people who feel slighted about the change. If you can't see it with the numerous examples I've given you already, then this is the last one I'm providing for you.

Say a magical little fairy gave you the power to magically change all the posts debating about the changes that occurred in the past 24 hours to constructive posts about the game itself and guilds or whatever you want. Would Hex and CZE be better off if you chose to do so? If your answer is yes, then it very clearly a PR blunder because the only reason people are discussing the change is because CZE made the change in the first place. If you answer no, then you're deluding yourself :)

But it's just not a PR blunder and your story does not relate.

Just because a group did not get even MORE value added doesn't mean that CZE screwed up. If they screwed up anywhere, it's in not drumming up the PvE side to increase the perceived value of the PvE tiers. That does nothing to change that the PvP tiers are a guaranteed ROI. You have lost NOTHING. If they're supposed to worry about the PvP tiers whining because they didn't get even MORE on their ROI then they were already getting, then what about those tiers, like King, that didn't get drafts. Should they be upset? The only PR blunder is them underestimating how people would utterly lose it that the other $250 tiers, that were universally agreed to be at a lower perceived value, were bumped up and they weren't. And in that respect, I still don't consider that a blunder, I consider it a very vocal minority making a lot of noise over nothing.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:41 AM
So you're saying that they shouldn't issue a statement of apology or a statement of explanation as to why they made the change because they already threw free stuff at people?

I'm saying they don't need to offer an explanation because it would boil down to:

"Hey, remember that thing a lot of you asked for? Well, we gave it to you! You're welcome. Glad we took the time to write this, huh? Also, swing by the official forums and look up forum user Jugan, we'll be giving him special premiere sleeves, Douche Master Edition. Any time he wins a die roll, he'll get to put a special Ad Hom token into play, that will crash the game, because he is the worst. Take care!"

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:42 AM
But it's just not a PR blunder

Oh you're right, the 200 comments on the KS update page arguing about the free draft for a year instead of talking about tablet support is definitely not an effect of a PR move. In fact, it's a good thing people are talking about feeling left out or devalued instead of how great tablet support is and asking questions about it. No PR blunder here.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:42 AM
It's not hard to understand if you know what a premise and a conclusion is.

Or if I was trying address what you tried to say after battling through the obscuration. And removing the terrible example that made no sense.

You: My argument of bad PR is based on the fact that there are people who feel slighted about the change.

Me: By this logic CZE shouldn't do anything ever because it might cause bad PR.

you: Because your premise and conclusion don't match up. You're using my argument as your premise, but have changed the premise of my argument to match your conclusion.


Seems like they match up perfectly to me. You said that it is bad PR because people are upset and I pointed out this applies to everything. Then you used a lot of words to say nothing and declared I was wrong.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Just because a group did not get even MORE value added doesn't mean that CZE screwed up. If they screwed up anywhere, it's in not drumming up the PvE side to increase the perceived value of the PvE tiers. That does nothing to change that the PvP tiers are a guaranteed ROI. You have lost NOTHING. If they're supposed to worry about the PvP tiers whining because they didn't get even MORE on their ROI then they were already getting, then what about those tiers, like King, that didn't get drafts. Should they be upset? The only PR blunder is them underestimating how people would utterly lose it that the other $250 tiers, that were universally agreed to be at a lower perceived value, were bumped up and they weren't. And in that respect, I still don't consider that a blunder, I consider it a very vocal minority making a lot of noise over nothing.

Fallacious argument.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Nobody said anything about "have to"; that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether it would be a good move for CZE to issue a statement and/or apology.

Can you show me any evidence that people will not care that CZE is showing them that they do care? People who play league of legends remember that Riot Games has given out numerous tokens of apology even when they didn't have to apology in the first place. Riot Games still does issue apologies and even small tokens in the form of in game currency or skins or whatnot in addition to an official statement of apology. People appreciate that.

Appeal to impossible evidence (not sure what the real fallacy is called but I think you can figure out what I mean)

Would you also like me to prove the moon isn't made of green cheese?

jai151
05-23-2013, 10:44 AM
Can you provide me with any evidence of assertion that more people were upset before vs. now? Can you also show me why that maters? Can you explain how changing the tiers shows that they care about people (vs. caring about getting more money, etc.)?

Easily. Browse through the forums and kickstarter comments over the past two weeks. You will see far more unique individuals complaining about the imbalance of the tiers than unique individuals complaining about the change since. As for why that matters, because they never issued a statement of apology for the tier imbalance. So if they were to issue one for correcting it, it would say to a much larger segment of the audience "We care more about the Pro tier than yours."

Changing tiers was a response to a request made by a large segment of the backing public. If they only cared about getting money, they would have used a different tactic, as the value of product involved in the tier balance is greater than the value of the backing. Especially when combined with already existing rewards.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:45 AM
fallacious argument.

you're so awkward

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:45 AM
Or if I was trying address what you tried to say after battling through the obscuration. And removing the terrible example that made no sense.

You: My argument of bad PR is based on the fact that there are people who feel slighted about the change.

Me: By this logic CZE shouldn't do anything ever because it might cause bad PR.

you: Because your premise and conclusion don't match up. You're using my argument as your premise, but have changed the premise of my argument to match your conclusion.


Seems like they match up perfectly to me. You said that it is bad PR because people are upset and I pointed out this applies to everything. Then you used a lot of words to say nothing and declared I was wrong.

Even though you strawmanned my argument, you still managed to put your original fallacy on display. Bravo.

houjix
05-23-2013, 10:45 AM
So if CZE comes out and says "whoops, our bad", you'll clam up?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:46 AM
So if CZE comes out and says "whoops, our bad", you'll clam up?

I'll say it was a good move, and CZE shares my sentiments.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:46 AM
It must be weird, always being, "that guy" huh, Jugan? The guy no one ever wants to hang out with in real life. The guy who never really learned how to ride a conversation's flow. A guy who has to pretend to be a debate champion; or worse, is a debate champion.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 10:47 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

Even if there is a downside to admitting there's something worth apologizing for, I think the harms are mitigated and outweighed by #3.

The likelihood of this happening is VERY slim. Slighting (perceived or actual slights, for clarity) self-described pro players to make a decision that favors everyone else is a call CZE will make in favor of everyone else almost every time they're given the opportunity. This is something that should make you happy as a Pro Player. Here's why:

1) Every time one of the PvE-focused people draft, there is a chance you will be drafting with them. This is a huge advantage for you, as you will be more experienced/invested in drafting. Outcome: +PP
2) There is no guarantee that they will draft at all. CZE still gets their pledge and nothing happens to the card pool or your draft experience. Outcome: Neutral PP
3) At the end of the year, they decide they like drafting and buy in for more. The community gains another player and CZE gets their money, which helps subsidize their sunk cost on your lifetime of drafting. There is also one more player in the queue to ensure that your draft actually fires. Outcome: +PP

What Stiii was trying to say was that if a company stops to apologize every time someone gets their feewings huwt, nothing will ever get done. This isn't a PR nightmare. This is a case of people imagining a case wherein there are others who may, somehow, be getting a deal as close to as valuable as theirs. The horror.

There is already going to be an impossible glut of set 1 cards, so market devaluation from another 1-4000 players drafting for free for a year is marginal at best. There was a lot of complaining about the non-PP tiers being difficult to evaluate relative to the PP tier, so they added something else quantifiable. Every decision or valuation being a lay-down one way or the other makes for a pretty uninteresting situation, wouldn't you agree? Or did you only play mono-colored 4x of everything decks in your multiple Pro Tour appearances?

You will die of old age before you get an apology from CZE for this.

This addition to non-PP tiers makes sense. Instead of finding fault in the outcome, I'm willing to question the manner in which this additional value was added to the exclusion of other, perhaps more reasonable options (add-on tiers, a new tier entirely, actually show what PvE looks like and why anyone should care, why GK+ was willfully excluded from receiving value given to lower tiers, etc.). CZE can care what their supporters think (and clearly do, or else the tiers would have remained untouched and you can go pound sand) without kow-towing to the desires of the pro players to extract even more value. You are in the unfortunate minority of both caring a great deal and being exceedingly motivated by value. You have worth to the company, but you are not the focus. Trust me on this; I've played WoW TCG since the beginning, and I have seen the track record of decisions made.

houjix
05-23-2013, 10:48 AM
I'll say it was a good move, and CZE shares my sentiments.

Then ask them directly. Call Corey, you know where to find the number. They don't read these forums in extreme depth.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:48 AM
The likelihood of this happening is VERY slim. Slighting (perceived or actual slights, for clarity) self-described pro players to make a decision that favors everyone else is a call CZE will make in favor of everyone else almost every time they're given the opportunity. This is something that should make you happy as a Pro Player. Here's why:

1) Every time one of the PvE-focused people draft, there is a chance you will be drafting with them. This is a huge advantage for you, as you will be more experienced/invested in drafting. Outcome: +PP
2) There is no guarantee that they will draft at all. CZE still gets their pledge and nothing happens to the card pool or your draft experience. Outcome: Neutral PP
3) At the end of the year, they decide they like drafting and buy in for more. The community gains another player and CZE gets their money, which helps subsidize their sunk cost on your lifetime of drafting. There is also one more player in the queue to ensure that your draft actually fires. Outcome: +PP

What Stiii was trying to say was that if a company stops to apologize every time someone gets their feewings huwt, nothing will ever get done. This isn't a PR nightmare. This is a case of people imagining a case wherein there are others who may, somehow, be getting a deal as close to as valuable as theirs. The horror.

There is already going to be an impossible glut of set 1 cards, so market devaluation from another 1-4000 players drafting for free for a year is marginal at best. There was a lot of complaining about the non-PP tiers being difficult to evaluate relative to the PP tier, so they added something else quantifiable. Every decision or valuation being a lay-down one way or the other makes for a pretty uninteresting situation, wouldn't you agree? Or did you only play mono-colored 4x of everything decks in your multiple Pro Tour appearances?

You will die of old age before you get an apology from CZE for this.

This addition to non-PP tiers makes sense. Instead of finding fault in the outcome, I'm willing to question the manner in which this additional value was added to the exclusion of other, perhaps more reasonable options (add-on tiers, a new tier entirely, why GK+ was willfully excluded from receiving value given to lower tiers, etc.). CZE can care what their supporters think (and clearly do, or else the tiers would have remained untouched and you can go pound sand) without kow-towing to the desires of the pro players to extract even more value. You are in the unfortunate minority of both caring a great deal and being exceedingly motivated by value. You have worth to the company, but you are not the focus. Trust me on this; I've played WoW TCG since the beginning, and I have seen the track record of decisions made.

QFT.

Will be back when CZE offers an apology and/or some kind of explanation for their legendary tier.

I think you need to take a step back and read my stance on the issue. I have more of an issue with the manner in which the change was done; the change itself I don't really care much about. I never did say that CZE should cater to the whim of a single complaint; when their forum is flooded with discussions that, instead of being discussions, end up as threads of people being hurt vs. people cussing them out and saying they shouldn't be hurt, then it would only help them to rectify the situation by issuing a statement to clarify the reasoning behind their actions. Doing so would only help them as it would speed up the process which the forum can revert back to the normal constructive discussion that would take place.

You raise a lot of good arguments, but unfortunately you raise them against the wrong person.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:50 AM
Even though you strawmanned my argument, you still managed to put your original fallacy on display. Bravo.

I'm starting to think you don't know what any of these terms mean. I directly quoted you how can I possibly be strawmanning you? I also note you yet again didn't bother explaining how exactly I was wrong.

Daer
05-23-2013, 10:50 AM
So now you will settle for an explanation and not an apology?

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:50 AM
Jugan I want to have sex with you.

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 10:50 AM
QFT.

Will be back when CZE offers an apology and/or some kind of explanation for their legendary tier.

GG, no Re.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 10:51 AM
I want to have sex with you so nothing in my life can ever be worse than that. After we have sex, no matter what happens to me, I can always say, "Well, at least it wasn't as bad as having sex with Jugan."

Mike411
05-23-2013, 10:51 AM
As a pro tier player, I'm happy, because we're getting set two boosters. There was a great imbalance between us and the other $250 tiers, and I think it was right move to lessen this gap as they did. This is a donation system and not a card shop. If people feel entitled to more and they leave Hex, I won't shed any tears - they aren't people I would enjoy playing with. I want this game, and it's community, to be great.

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 10:52 AM
I want to have sex with you so nothing in my life can ever be worse than that. After we have sex, no matter what happens to me, I can always say, "Well, at least it wasn't as bad as having sex with Jugan."
you'd be wrong, after you debated with him about it.
That can be worse.

stiii
05-23-2013, 10:52 AM
So now you will settle for an explanation and not an apology?

His position is just a base to argue with people. It makes it a lot easier if he is very very vague.

jai151
05-23-2013, 10:52 AM
QFT.

Will be back when CZE offers an apology and/or some kind of explanation for their legendary tier.

And no one will debate that we're all better off for this.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 10:54 AM
QFT.

Will be back when CZE offers an apology and/or some kind of explanation for their legendary tier.

I believe the explanation is best summed up as follows: "It's not for you, personally, the self-described pro player." If that offends you, then I'm sorry and can sympathize, but the track record of games basing their decisions solely on the interests of the pro player has not been exactly stellar.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:54 AM
So now you will settle for an explanation and not an apology?

If you read my posts, they include apology and/or explanation, and explain why either might be helpful.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:56 AM
I believe the explanation is best summed up as follows: "It's not for you, personally, the self-described pro player." If that offends you, then I'm sorry and can sympathize, but the track record of games basing their decisions solely on the interests of the pro player has not been exactly stellar.

Oh I definitely agree; Versus and dreamblade are two prime examples of that. I think you misgeneralize people at the pro player tier to be actual competitive players; a lot of them are casuals looking for a draft. Also, I edited the post you quoted; please re-read.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 10:56 AM
Oh I definitely agree; Versus and dreamblade are two prime examples of that. I think you misgeneralize people at the pro player tier to be actual competitive players; a lot of them are casuals looking for a draft. Also, I edited the post you quoted; please re-read.

I also changed my post to add a sentence after you quoted me. Let's be editing pals.

Xexist
05-23-2013, 10:58 AM
I want to have sex with you so nothing in my life can ever be worse than that. After we have sex, no matter what happens to me, I can always say, "Well, at least it wasn't as bad as having sex with Jugan."

You are seriously acting like a loser, grow up a bit.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:58 AM
I also changed my post to add a sentence after you quoted me. Let's be editing pals.

Okay, be ignorant of my stance. I'm okay with you completely butchering everything I've had to say, along with my stance, when it was only a few pages back where I stated them.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 11:00 AM
I think they should; what do they lose from an apology that comes off as sincere?

Little, but it's unlike to appease the vocal minority who all have their hands out wanting MORE, despite still having the tier with the best ROI.

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:00 AM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

I heard that somewhere once.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:01 AM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

I heard that somewhere once.

And applied it to the wrong topic.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:02 AM
Little, but it's unlike to appease the vocal minority who all have their hands out wanting MORE, despite still having the tier with the best ROI.

Well first of all, you don't definitively know that they have the best ROI. They have a ROI that doesn't require much risk or speculation. Who doesn't want more free stuff? I'm sure you'd like more free stuff. But I think the act of deftly handling a situation like this is the most valuable thing CZE can gain. People literally threw money at Riot because they felt cared for.

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:03 AM
It sounds like you need a hug. I think Omar Epps is willing.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 11:03 AM
What's ROI pls

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 11:05 AM
What's ROI pls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks

obv..

jai151
05-23-2013, 11:06 AM
Did CZE issue an apology when I wasn't looking? Cause I could have sworn Jugan said he was gone

stiii
05-23-2013, 11:06 AM
What's ROI pls

Return on investment

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:06 AM
What's ROI pls

Return on Investment.

stiii
05-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Well first of all, you don't definitively know that they have the best ROI. They have a ROI that doesn't require much risk or speculation. Who doesn't want more free stuff? I'm sure you'd like more free stuff. But I think the act of deftly handling a situation like this is the most valuable thing CZE can gain. People literally threw money at Riot because they felt cared for.

Oh so Riot are apologizing after every single change they make now?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:08 AM
Oh so Riot are apologizing after every single change they make now?

They went out of their way to apologize or issue a statement of explanation several times when they didn't have to. It ended up being extremely beneficial to them in the long run because they deftly handled those situations. Are you done?

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:08 AM
Oh so Riot are apologizing after every single change they make now?

Every character nerf is met with 500 pages of people applauding and yelling at Riot. I don't think I've once seen them offer anything other than their initial statement.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 11:11 AM
QFT.

Will be back when CZE offers an apology and/or some kind of explanation for their legendary tier.

I think you need to take a step back and read my stance on the issue. I have more of an issue with the manner in which the change was done; the change itself I don't really care much about. I never did say that CZE should cater to the whim of a single complaint; when their forum is flooded with discussions that, instead of being discussions, end up as threads of people being hurt vs. people cussing them out and saying they shouldn't be hurt, then it would only help them to rectify the situation by issuing a statement to clarify the reasoning behind their actions. Doing so would only help them as it would speed up the process which the forum can revert back to the normal constructive discussion that would take place.

You raise a lot of good arguments, but unfortunately you raise them against the wrong person.

I am willing to suggest that the tried-and-true strategy of "ignore it, it will go away" is the more likely tack. This is a long-haul project for CZE, and there will no doubt be many unpopular decisions made throughout the course of the game's life. Perception is important, but until there are dedicated forum moderators/community managers (think Bashiok/Ghostcrawler/etc from Blizzard) you can't expect continual clarification/explanation/responses. They're too small of an outfit to make that happen, and I don't know what level of return they'd have to realize to make it worth their while to create such a position.

For myself, I've been pleasantly surprised by the timbre of conversation in this forum, but having some dissension in the ranks does not mean that the honeymoon is over. Have you seen what Magic just did with the rules changes in M14? You'd think it was the end of days over there. Not every decision or policy is going to go over well with every segment of the player population, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect CZE to smooth ruffled feathers ASAP and return to the status quo. I don't know what the acceptable baseline for overall morale is for them, but a relatively small blip in the radar otherwise is probably not enough to summon the powers that be to the PR line.

I would also be willing to put money on the sentence "They're somehow mad that we're giving them MORE stuff?" followed by copious swearing in disbelief has been uttered by more than one CZE employee in the last 24 hours.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 11:13 AM
Okay, be ignorant of my stance. I'm okay with you completely butchering everything I've had to say, along with my stance, when it was only a few pages back where I stated them.

wat.

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 11:13 AM
wat.

Please why do you feed him more?

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:13 AM
There isn't any controversy, the people that are unhappy are a vanishingly small number of people. Most of which won't change tiers because in the repressed parts of their brain where intelligence lives they realize the PP and GK spots are still the best value long term.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 11:15 AM
They went out of their way to apologize or issue a statement of explanation several times when they didn't have to. It ended up being extremely beneficial to them in the long run because they deftly handled those situations. Are you done?

I have seen Riot characterized as many things before, but "deft" is a new one. I've seen bears maul their prey more gracefully than Riot deals with the festering pool of vitriol they call a community.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 11:17 AM
Jugan, I hope you keep this user name for the game, too. Just so when I smash you I can savor it even more.

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 11:17 AM
I think Jugan pledged King Spaz tier.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:18 AM
I am willing to suggest that the tried-and-true strategy of "ignore it, it will go away" is the more likely tack. This is a long-haul project for CZE, and there will no doubt be many unpopular decisions made throughout the course of the game's life. Perception is important, but until there are dedicated forum moderators/community managers (think Bashiok/Ghostcrawler/etc from Blizzard) you can't expect continual clarification/explanation/responses. They're too small of an outfit to make that happen, and I don't know what level of return they'd have to realize to make it worth their while to create such a position.

For myself, I've been pleasantly surprised by the timbre of conversation in this forum, but having some dissension in the ranks does not mean that the honeymoon is over. Have you seen what Magic just did with the rules changes in M14? You'd think it was the end of days over there. Not every decision or policy is going to go over well with every segment of the player population, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect CZE to smooth ruffled feathers ASAP and return to the status quo. I don't know what the acceptable baseline for overall morale is for them, but a relatively small blip in the radar otherwise is probably not enough to summon the powers that be to the PR line.

I would also be willing to put money on the sentence "They're somehow mad that we're giving them MORE stuff?" followed by copious swearing in disbelief has been uttered by more than one CZE employee in the last 24 hours.

Yes, I think "ignore, it will go away" is a necessity in the long term. However, I think they can still really benefit by going out of their way and handling this situation in a graceful manner. I personally don't think there's much of a downside in handling it that way, and I don't think it will set a precedent for the people who want to incite a riot every time something doesn't fall their way.

I've seen the changes coming with M14, and I was there when they removed damage on the stack. I think it's also necessary to point out a few things:
1. Magic is the heavyweight, tried and true.
2. That being said, even they have to handle their PR.
3. With the Planeswalker Change, they issued a statement explaining why they made those changes. These statements often follow controversial decisions, like making bans in a format. Did you see the uproar about the recent bans in modern? The explanations definitely softened the blow
4. Hex is new; it's not tried and true like MTG. Working some PR could definitely help things in the long run.

"They're somehow mad that we're giving them MORE stuff?"
Happens every time.

stiii
05-23-2013, 11:18 AM
They went out of their way to apologize or issue a statement of explanation several times when they didn't have to. It ended up being extremely beneficial to them in the long run because they deftly handled those situations. Are you done?

You see this is a strawman. As you apparently don't understand how it work let me explain how it works to you.

I said do they apologizing after every single change. The important word here being every. Meaning that they don't just apologize sometimes they do it constantly.

You however responded as if I said do Riot never apologize after they make changes and then replied to that position.

This is called a strawman where a person says one thing and the other person responds to something different.

Would you like to know more?

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:18 AM
I have seen Riot characterized as many things before, but "deft" is a new one. I've seen bears maul their prey more gracefully than Riot deals with the festering pool of vitriol they call a community.


Read a Gearbox post about Borderlands 2 everytime they give away Golden Keys. Makes this place look like two pre-schoolers arguing over whose cookie has more chocolate chips.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:18 AM
Jugan, I hope you keep this user name for the game, too. Just so when I smash you I can savor it even more.

I will.

Chance
05-23-2013, 11:19 AM
everyone should look at jugans profile and all his posts. hes so damn toxic

Talreth
05-23-2013, 11:20 AM
I will.

Can we be super best friends in game

BohemianStalker
05-23-2013, 11:21 AM
everyone should look at jugans profile and all his posts. hes so damn toxic

He is official clown of this forum :-)

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:21 AM
You see this is a strawman. As you apparently don't understand how it work let me explain how it works to you.

I said do they apologizing after every single change. The important word here being every. Meaning that they don't just apologize sometimes they do it constantly.

You however responded as if I said do Riot never apologize after they make changes and then replied to that position.

This is called a strawman where a person says one thing and the other person responds to something different.

Would you like to know more?

Your entire argument is based on a false dichotomy saying that they either must apologize in all instances or in none at all. You're pushing that false dichotomy upon me. I reject that false dichotomy, saying that an apology OR statement of explanation can help in the long run for the numerous reasons I've stated. I've shown that WotC and Riot Games use this tactic quite frequently, and have also shown you that handling their PR deftly was amazingly beneficial to Riot Games in the long run. I was not straw manning your argument; you apparently don't know what the difference between a straw man and a false dichotomy is.

It's obvious that they should pick and choose which instances they issues apologies and/or statements; I think this would be one instance where it would be beneficial. Like I've stated countless times earlier, take the Riot Games approach.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Can we be super best friends in game

Sure.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:22 AM
The biggest issue on any forum is that there is no ignore feature =(

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:23 AM
Can we be super best friends in game

I AM YOUR SUPER BEST FRIEND! I will have none of this!

Talreth
05-23-2013, 11:23 AM
I AM YOUR SUPER BEST FRIEND! I will have none of this!

Noooo you're like my super duper ultra buddy

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Noooo you're like my super duper ultra buddy

Sounds like you need to add more rewards to that tier.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Noooo you're like my super duper ultra buddy lover

Okay.

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
The biggest issue on any forum is that there is no ignore feature =(
Oh, but there is.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Oh, but there is.

Where!?

houjix
05-23-2013, 11:25 AM
Where!?

Settings, then left hand column.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 11:25 AM
OMG if you click on someones name you can ignore them! That's amazing! Does it delete all their posts from my perspective?!

OmarEpps
05-23-2013, 11:27 AM
Crypto has had the BEST Public Relations, IMO, that I've ever seen from a company.

SUPER personal. Dude gave us his PHONE NUMBER.

Catered to requests for stretch goals.

Updates 7 days a week.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 11:27 AM
Sounds like you need to add more rewards to that tier.

Nah there's hidden perks

Jugan
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
Nah there's hidden perks

I think we need to open another thread to discuss that.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 11:29 AM
I think we need to open another thread to discuss that.

Yeah I feel like this thread is pretty much over.

stiii
05-23-2013, 11:29 AM
Your entire argument is based on a false dichotomy saying that they either must apologize in all instances or in none at all. You're pushing that false dichotomy upon me. I reject that false dichotomy, saying that an apology OR statement of explanation can help in the long run for the numerous reasons I've stated. I've shown that WotC and Riot Games use this tactic quite frequently, and have also shown you that handling their PR deftly was amazingly beneficial to Riot Games in the long run. I was not straw manning your argument; you apparently don't know what the difference between a straw man and a false dichotomy is.

It's obvious that they should pick and choose which instances they issues apologies and/or statements; I think this would be one instance where it would be beneficial. Like I've stated countless times earlier, take the Riot Games approach.


It is pretty simple I said one thing, you responded as if I'd said something else. This is textbook strawman.

You are doing it yet again here in claiming that I'm saying they must apologize 100% or 0%. You are demanding they apologize in this case because someone is offended. As someone will always be offended by any change ever you are the one saying they should apologize 100% of the time. The problem is you haven't thought through your own position to get to this conclusion.

My posts were an attempt to highlight how absurd your own position was, something which when you don't figure out it is your position you call a false dichotomy.

Nice of oyu to prove that you are just arguing for the sake of it.

Jotora
05-23-2013, 11:33 AM
This thread inspired my signature.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 11:34 AM
There is something worth apologizing for:

1. Making a move that upset people (regardless of how many people it was)
2. That people are upset
3. Most importantly, they admit that they care about what their supporters think, and want to put their best foot forward.

Even if there is a downside to admitting there's something worth apologizing for, I think the harms are mitigated and outweighed by #3.

By that logic, any time they make a change in the game that upsets anyone, they'll need to apologize? They'll need an entire apologies department.

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 11:36 AM
It's obvious that they should pick and choose which instances they issues apologies and/or statements; I think this would be one instance where it would be beneficial. Like I've stated countless times earlier, take the Riot Games approach.

EVERY instance would be beneficial for them to engage with the community when something is perceived as unpopular. But that would set unreasonable expectations for the long term, and ultimately prove to be more trouble than it's worth. There are only so many of them, and so very many more of us. Of course you feel like this situation would be one wherein a response is deserved; everyone feels that their concern needs a blue/purple/red response to lend validity to it or address their worry.

WoW TCG just recently had its own wave of bannings, and there was an announcement coupled by an article from R&D as to why they were moving in the direction they were. That was an issue that affected anyone who played the game in any official capacity whatsoever, and the level of engagement was an article and a few forums posts. The issue you're taking umbrage to is smaller by many orders of magnitude, and getting a "why was it done this way and not these other ways" isn't particularly likely to elicit a response from them. Again, I know this to be true, as similar low-import decisions have not received such personalized attention as you're requesting here.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 11:38 AM
Can you provide me with any evidence of assertion that more people were upset before vs. now? Can you also show me why that maters? Can you explain how changing the tiers shows that they care about people (vs. caring about getting more money, etc.)?

Can you show that a sizable number are upset now? Between the KS and here, I can maybe, MAYBE count 2-3 dozen. That is less than 1% of the number of backers.

gilby123
05-23-2013, 11:44 AM
Nobody said anything about "have to"; that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether it would be a good move for CZE to issue a statement and/or apology.

Can you show me any evidence that people will not care that CZE is showing them that they do care? People who play league of legends remember that Riot Games has given out numerous tokens of apology even when they didn't have to apology in the first place. Riot Games still does issue apologies and even small tokens in the form of in game currency or skins or whatnot in addition to an official statement of apology. People appreciate that.

That is a straw man.

I still have yet to hear from you a solid reason why they should apologize for making a minuscule, yet vocal, section of the community unhappy. Even if they DID (and I expect they will today due to the vocal minority), I don't buy that that group will accept it. CZE will explain their reasoning to try to keep them happy, but likely will be ineffective, since most seem to only care about what THEY get and it won't net them more stuff.

I don't think should or need to do anything. And they REALLY should not give them anything. It would set an awful president. Anyone unhappy with any change in Hex EVER, should they whine and cry and complain enough, will get rewarded for that negative behavior?