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Vexin
05-23-2013, 08:38 AM
I am a Wow TCG player here in So.Cal. and the other day at the shop we were talking about Hex. While the majority of players are backing Hex, a few players were not. So my question to those not backing Hex was "Why not?" All of their reasons for not backing this game boiled down to the same apprehension. Not having physical cards.

While I know this game can't be played in a physical environment, due to how the cards function, I still was trying to figure out a way to alleviate those players apprehension. And the only solution I came up with is what MTGO does already. Allow a player to trade in a full digitally set for a full physical set.

The more I thought about trading in a digital set for a physical set, the more it appealed to me on more levels for Hex.

First off, it alleviated my friends concerns about spending money on something not tangible.

Second, it would be a nice collection piece to have.

Third, it would be a good card sink.

Lastly, it could also be a gold sink if Cryptozoic made it cost X gold on the trade-in besides the cards.

Kami
05-23-2013, 08:40 AM
I actually like this idea from a collector's standpoint; however, as you said, you can't play this game once it enters the physical realm.

If anything, keeping your collection digital and then selling that way would net you more value than printing it out where it would be worth almost nothing.

jai151
05-23-2013, 08:40 AM
The problem is the cost. You now have to set up physical printing facilities that can somehow produce a three-sided card.

Turtlewing
05-23-2013, 08:42 AM
I think that people who think the digital cards are a downside are not in Hex's target audience and chasing them is going to be futile.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:43 AM
As a former MTG player, I have over 3000 worthless commons, uncommons, and lands. I think they're worth about 10 bucks total as bulk cards to some dealer, but it costs more to ship, so....

Granted, the foils, rares, and more in-demand uncommons combined were worth around $200, it wasn't like I made a return on my investment - I got maybe half my money back.

Hex just costs half as much straight up, and as long as you don't quit, the worse case scenario is that it becomes a card-for-card barter system, or you'll be able to buy all the cards you want for a relatively low cost.

Edit: I guess the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario is the game goes poof and you lose your entire collection, but I don't see that being likely for a decade or so. The same thing can happen with a TCG that suddenly loses it's publisher/IP owner. (Although you keep the cards, the value goes to the floor because there are no more organized events.)
I think that should there be a disasterous event that causes Cryptozoic to ax the game, they would either:
A) Refund your recent purchases
B) Release an app version of their game that has all the released cards with unlimited amounts and draft modes available freely (or a paid app)
C) Sell the rights to another company so they can continue
D) Release the server info so someone from the community can continue the project
E) Some combination of the above

Vexin
05-23-2013, 08:50 AM
The problem is the cost. You now have to set up physical printing facilities that can somehow produce a three-sided card.

Cyrptozoic currently make a TCG so the means is there. Its just the paper, ink and labor that would be their overhead. As for the 3 sided cards, I would expect the physical cards to just have the main face and not the back or dbl back flip.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:53 AM
Physical Cards would make certain cards difficult, if not impossible, to play.
Examples include Shrine of Prosperity, Replicator's Gambit, Pack Raptors, Booby Trap, that Earthquake card...


Cyrptozoic currently make a TCG so the means is there. Its just the paper, ink and labor that would be their overhead. As for the 3 sided cards, I would expect the physical cards to just have the main face and not the back or dbl back flip.

That's a rather huge cost. You also forgot about the cost of inventory, the cost of shipping, etc.
Also, what the heck would you do with unplayable cards? Redeem them online? Doesn't that seem somewhat fruitless?

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 08:54 AM
I think this is probably easier for MTG because they had printing setups long before their MMOTCG. o:

Yasi
05-23-2013, 08:55 AM
Or how about winners of live tournaments get a printed card similar to the Pokemon tournaments in Japan?

Fleckenwhatever
05-23-2013, 09:00 AM
You know all of those things they're using as selling points for being designed as digital from the ground up?

...you don't want all of those? :P

Hieronymous
05-23-2013, 09:17 AM
Here's the thing.

My old M:TG sits in a shoebox upstairs because everyone I used to play with lost interest or moved away or both. I'd still like to play, but it's a waste. With a digital game I can still play with those people, plus I can easily meet plenty of new people to play with, in a way I can't really do with physical cards for a lot of reasons (scheduled playtimes during working hours, being the old guy in the store, etc.)

This game I can play online with them one they buy in. In some ways, a collection of Hex cards will be *more* secure -- I don't have to worry about a roof leak or burst pipe spoiling my digital cards. On the other hand, the genuine concern about digital card collections is account theft; it's a huge problem for Blizzard already and could potentially result in huge losses for long-term players. I'm glad to see that authenticator support at release was the first stretch goal but it should have been a core element from the start of Beta.

Cashing out is another issue. There's always going to be a grey market on Ebay for card collections, so there's that. Hopefully, they will implement a Real Money auction house at some point, but we'll see.

MugenMusou
05-23-2013, 09:32 AM
I like the idea of physical cards simply because of collector's stand point of view. But the game is not playable in physical format as all of you said. So ideal situation for me is something like

"If you complete a set, you can redeem 1 of each physical card." This option should be only allowed may once per account. So somehow don't get abused. Second, just a hope but if they do this, unlike Magic I hope they don't take away our digital copy in return.

houjix
05-23-2013, 09:35 AM
No physical sets of cards. It adds unnecessary costs. Now maybe the occasional 1 of as part of a tournament prize or something, but that's it.

zifster
05-23-2013, 10:05 AM
I like the idea of promo cards as cool things to own or get people into the game, or signed artist cards etc, but never full sets of cards or cashing out as they just don't make sense for a digital game. It would be funny to see people print out a bunch of proxies and write all over them, roll dice, etc in an attempt to play the game offline, but more as a joke than anything practical. I for one love that I won't have stacks of cards I need to lug around and sort gathering dust.

Vexin
05-23-2013, 10:07 AM
No physical sets of cards. It adds unnecessary costs. Now maybe the occasional 1 of as part of a tournament prize or something, but that's it.

Your 1 of got me thinking. What if besides the foil and alt art for leveling a card, you could allow a card to be transferred to a physical card, complete with the main side of the card and the back being the DBL back with your personal trophies? This physical card would be limited to 1 card a set or block.

kirkwb
05-23-2013, 10:25 AM
I see no value in turning a functioning digital construct into a non-functioning physical representative. Technically you can play with physical cards, but it's super unwieldy and awkward. I got to draft this game with physical proxies, but it was tedious to keep track of all the digital mechanics.

Think of it this way, you have an unscratched Spectral Tiger loot card from the WoW TCG. It's valued at around $450 and it's a physical card, but it's value isn't from the card itself as it's not really a desirable card in the TCG like a Black Lotus is in Magic. It's value and function is in the Code you get that grants you a digital mount in the MMO (even though it's mostly superficial). Scratch that card and redeem the code and now the physical card is worth less than a dollar.

This is what I see happening if you really got to redeem physical cards in Hex. You'd be trading in your fully functioning digital item (like a Spectral Tiger mount) into a piece of paper with a pretty picture.

Anyone that doesn't understand the economy behind useful digital items and worthless physical representations may be living in the wrong age.

I've played and collected Magic, VS. and WoW TCG... Frankly I'm sick of storing card boxes and sorting thousands of cards. I welcome our new digital overlords.

Deathfog
05-23-2013, 10:25 AM
Tablets are much lighter than binders + deck boxes. Trading cards in Hex will likely be easier than in real life as the potential market at any given moment is worldwide vs. a handful of kids in a store somewhere.

I'm sure popular pieces of artwork on cards will be eventually available as posters or lithographs if you need the physical aspect.

Twztyd
05-23-2013, 10:32 AM
Whats so great about this game is that it cannot exist as a physical card game. The mechanics just will not work without the computer running alot of the card mechanics. Thats what drew me to this game.

I have a friend that doesnt want anything to do with the ingenuity of the mechanics for the same reason and I havent been able to convince him either. But he treats his magic cards as currency. He buys and sales them all over the place, mainly on ebay. When hes done with certain cards he sells them and buys others.

I personally enjoy that I dont have to have boxes of cards sitting around, I already have a shelf full of magic, raw deal, star wars ccg and many others and other than the occasional dusting off with one or two friends they sit there unused with no value. Sure I might be able to try and sell some and some might still have value but me the real value to me is having new faces to play with and to play on a regular basis.

To me if this game ever does go offline, I dont need boxes and boxes of cards sitting around, the effect is the same because i loose value by having a community to play with. To me the innovation of the digital only mechanics will be adding far more to my play experiance and having a live online community that I can connect to at anytime far outweighs my desire to physically "own" the cards should the servers ever go offline.

To the OP I would be selling the mechanics of the game and not focusing on the owning the cards. I think my own friend with his reservations will come around when I can actually show him the game and that there is a big vibrant community on hand any time of day.

EntropyBall
05-23-2013, 12:09 PM
I think the idea of giving out physical cards as prizes is neat, just so people have something to look at, but the idea of ever letting you "cash out" a physical set is totally backwards.

Hieronymous
05-23-2013, 12:11 PM
I'd be way more interested in (for example) a signed original print of the card *art* than I would be in a physical card as such.

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 12:28 PM
From a collector's perspective, I'd like to be able to "cash out" a physical set of cards after collecting a full set. Something physical I could put into a binder. If I could do this, I'd definitely work to get a complete collection of every set, just so I have a physical copy I could flip through and admire.

They could probably achieve something similar with a full-screen display mode for your collection in the game or tablet app, that'd probably scratch this itch just as well.

Deathfog
05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
Novelty cards could be printed, they have experience with WoWCCG. Playable cards wouldn't work in total as many effects modify cards or create cards in ways that would impossible to reproduce.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:15 PM
Printing entire runs of card sets versus singles isn't really the same thing.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:18 PM
Novelty cards could be printed, they have experience with WoWCCG. Playable cards wouldn't work in total as many effects modify cards or create cards in ways that would impossible to reproduce.

They should print digital novelty cards that, when scratched, let you redeem the code for real-world prizes like mounts (such as a Tesla Model S)

djlowballer
05-23-2013, 04:52 PM
I wouldn't want it. The appeal of a DCG is having your collection completely online. Physical cards take up space and need to be manually sorted.

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 06:34 PM
They should print digital novelty cards that, when scratched, let you redeem the code for real-world prizes like mounts (such as a Tesla Model S)
Wish I could favorite posts. LOL
For real, Loot Cards in Hex would be so good for parody purposes.

nearlysober
05-23-2013, 06:37 PM
Let people who want the cards have an easy way to print them at home.

I'd rather keep boosters at $2 a than increase price to have a way to "cash out" and have cards that cannot be played.

Kagim
05-23-2013, 06:44 PM
While i understand they are utterly useless outside of the game, I kinda would still like to be able to buy like a complete deck of the cards physically. Not to play but, well, *looks over at a dozen special edition figurines from video games* I'm a sucker for stuff like that. It would be cool.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not talking cash out, but like, a shop where you can buy them. Sorta like how you can buy shirts and models of every other obsession in existence.

It would be cool... Well at least for me...

WWKnight
05-23-2013, 06:46 PM
I will throw in my hat to +1 physical print out.

If they charged you the shipping and a small part of the printing cost, Id gladly have a physical set of the cards. And yes, a lot of the cards would be impossible to play IRL. Thats fine. I dont want to play them. I want to sleeve them up, put them in a folder and proudly display them when people come over and look through my collections.

Every MTG set, I draft and play only until I have 1 of every card. Then im done until the next set comes out. I missed Ravnica because I was too far away. But it was the whole point of TCGs for me, with actual games as a mini game on the side. This idea appeals to me a lot.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:50 PM
I'd rather not see this, I think it's a waste of time and resources. Your collection is on your computer. I'd rather them set up a site like wow armory or something where you could show off your sick collection.

nearlysober
05-23-2013, 06:51 PM
If it was an option that was completely outside the operating cost of the game, and therefore kept boosters cheap... then it'd be fine.

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 06:55 PM
i have an old uncut sheet of arena magic that is neat to have but really since i no longet play is pointless. to get an uncut sheet of hex cards to hang on my wall in my office would be neat if you want my 2 cents lol

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 08:05 PM
If it was an option that was completely outside the operating cost of the game, and therefore kept boosters cheap... then it'd be fine.

Yes. I would only support this option if the cost of cashing out the set completely paid for the cost of printing and shippping the cards. I would hate to see others have to subsidize this cost if they never planned on using the feature.

MasterPlan
05-23-2013, 08:41 PM
What would be the point of having physical cards in a game not designed to be played physically. I guess maybe you could cash it in for a set of art cards. But I do not want the game to make any concessions to physical play.

Madican
05-23-2013, 08:44 PM
I wouldn't mind having something like a low, random chance to get a code that permits picking one of a set of cards that can be sent to you physically.

Thinks like Spectral Lotus and such, not any card you please.

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 08:52 PM
What would be the point of having physical cards in a game not designed to be played physically. I guess maybe you could cash it in for a set of art cards. But I do not want the game to make any concessions to physical play.

This thread, I believe, is more concerned about getting a set as a piece of art, not to use in physical play--which I think we all know would not be an enjoyable experience. That is, unless you're the type who could think of nothing better than multivariable calculus to pass a lazy Sunday afternoon.

BossHoss
05-23-2013, 09:10 PM
This thread, I believe, is more concerned about getting a set as a piece of art, not to use in physical play--which I think we all know would not be an enjoyable experience. That is, unless you're the type who could think of nothing better than multivariable calculus to pass a lazy Sunday afternoon.

I know for a fact I would love a physical copy of the card I helped create... I would be all for an outside cost print run of sets

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 09:16 PM
Perhaps we can just get them to get us high quality images that can be scaled to any size and printed at our local print shop to our specifications? A card image exporter, front and back, or doubleback built into the client!

Stok3d
05-23-2013, 09:19 PM
If I wanted paper, i'll play MTG. If you want digital, I'll play Hex. Did I mention I don't want to play paper?

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 09:21 PM
It wouldn't be for play purposes, you can't play hex on paper. But I could imagine my vanity card blown up to poster size on my wall, or a foil legendary, or a card I won a tournament with... *shrug* If I could export a lossless image that I could have scaled and printed poster size I might take it to a local place and have them do that.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 09:22 PM
Also, it wouldn't cost crypto anything other than the ability to export lossless images in client. Which could be used for any number of things besides just printing them out by the community.

cakedraftmasters
05-23-2013, 10:17 PM
What if the just made a living card game design, for those who wanted the physical forms.

DrVanPorcine
05-23-2013, 10:32 PM
no physical cards... it would be a money sink for the company (with all the boosters 'given' with each tiers).
A lot of people will begin to play with full sets.

BigDog
05-23-2013, 10:50 PM
Id love to have the option to have an understandably high price "print to order" function for some of my favorite cards as a physical keepsake. However i completely agree with nearlysober in that all costs should be paid for by the buyer including labor shipping etc.

That being said, a side event at the physical world championship with uncut physical sheets of all of set 1 would be a super sick prize for a side event.

Also please just quote me a price on a physical "run with the big dogs" and we can talk shop plz.

funktion
05-23-2013, 11:15 PM
Although YOU might like there to be a physical set of the cards, the overall demand of it is going to be quite low; meanwhile the printing cost is going to be a non-zero amount. The logistical cost on their end will be dramatically more than MTG is, MTG is already actively printed and played physically so they already have the logistics set up to do set redemptions.

As someone who has redeemed multiple sets from MTGO for both pleasure and profit, I do not want to see them do this with hex. I'd rather them put the same money into prize support for organized play. The money that they would spend for redemptions comes from more or less the same funds that they are using for prize support.

NO THANKS!

nicosharp
05-23-2013, 11:42 PM
People stuck on paper card games, should play their paper card games. What MTGO does is pathetically archaic. I've been hoping for a high value, competitive, semi-affordable, digital TCG for some time now. MTGO does not even come close to hitting that mark. Hex has a chance. Digital TCG has more value to me than cards on shelves collecting dust here, that I put no effort into selling because of the physical work and sorting involved. Digital, pre-organized cards that take no physical space, and are supported by a in-game auction house are a lot easier for me to set an actual value on.

I understand the thinking around wanting a tangible asset, but as technology advances, digital assets are becoming tangible assets.. for example - bitcoin (not the best example, but recent)

BohemianStalker
05-24-2013, 03:56 AM
My idea:

Redeeming the whole set would give you ability to buy one special physical bigger card or maybe one little statue (there would be 8 to choose to correspond your chosen race or one neutral to represent the whole set - like kraken) . There would be fee associated to get this statue , like 50$ + shipping. Basically more than it would cost them to make one + let them do some profit on it. There would also be special code given to you with this statue that you could redeem in HEX shop for unique pve card, doesnt need to be any powerfull card just some collector card.

I think that might get some people to redeem and get something nice physical out of it :)

for dwarfs:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gzwv2_AyBU4/TuvIph2Ym3I/AAAAAAAAPK0/q86B3IAtP2w/s1600/dwarf_lord_ally.JPG

something like this, maybe bigger :)

darkbreaker
05-24-2013, 06:05 AM
Am I missing something? Lot of people talking about CZE not having the structure and logistic for printing cards... but AFAIK they already print a lot of card games (like WoWTCG)... I would love an option to order some prints and would gladly pay for it and for the shipping. Not for playing, just for collecting some cards with awesome art on it.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 06:14 AM
Anyone want to buy some of my boosters for $1.25 each during beta?

shiningideal
05-24-2013, 06:21 AM
Yes, CZE has card printing infrastructure but it probably shipped out like most other CCG companies. Which means the costs are drastically higher on low print runs like this would be - meaning that cost would have to be passed on to the customers in some way or another. Are you willing to cash out a set and pay $20-50 on top of it for physical cards? If so - maybe it is a reasonable idea for you.

And they can't make it easy for you to print the cards on your own most likely. I have no idea what the agreements are with their artists, but unlimited reproduction rights by fans is unlikely to be something they are purchasing which is what would be required. In fact - they may be saving on their artist licenses by only purchasing digital reproduction rights and nothing physical which would make the idea of real cards more expensive yet again.

darkbreaker
05-24-2013, 06:25 AM
Yes, CZE has card printing infrastructure but it probably shipped out like most other CCG companies. Which means the costs are drastically higher on low print runs like this would be - meaning that cost would have to be passed on to the customers in some way or another. Are you willing to cash out a set and pay $20-50 on top of it for physical cards? If so - maybe it is a reasonable idea for you.

$50 for a whole set seems reasonable, even better if friends wanted printed cards then we could split the taxes. But that's just my opinion, maybe it could be not appealing to many people.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 06:26 AM
Man...it's going to suck if they had "Exodia."

Hexmage
05-24-2013, 06:46 AM
The problem with this whole physical printing thing is, that they would have to do a small print run on cards that aren't actually playable when you have them. This will also have to be done instead of their normal print runs (like WoW) or they have to buy an extra printer for this. The price for both of these options is probably not even close to worth the time and hassle it brings.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 06:49 AM
The amount of money and time it would take to do this would outweigh any gains as well...