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View Full Version : Kickstarter Update #15 is up



Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:07 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/489732

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:10 PM
A remanding squid has been spoiled, that is all @_@

Lochar
05-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Called it about the draft buff.

houjix
05-23-2013, 02:12 PM
So no more "what if we reach 1.5 mil". Let's see how the PP's that think they are getting the shaft react.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
We still need clarification on the collectors tier. I assume that will be coming soon.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
So no more "what if we reach 1.5 mil". Let's see how the PP's that think they are getting the shaft react.

They'll complain? That's their only recourse. CZE just took an official stance on it, and it looks fine to me.

Joolz
05-23-2013, 02:14 PM
Good for them for committing to the $250 buffs without needing the last stretch goal reached (though I have no doubt it'll be reached anyway). Also, I am very happy they didn't cave and give the PP tier more because of a few whiners (and I pledged PP so it would have directly benefited me).

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 02:14 PM
Great move on CZE's part. No reason for people to hesitate about moving into the other tiers, where they may have earlier feared not hitting the 1.5 and not getting their year of drafts.

arastor
05-23-2013, 02:14 PM
So the drafts are no longer part of the stretch goal, but are just added in immediately? Good enough, now the stretch goal is balanced across all tiers.

Now as long as they make a game that's worth playing for years to come and it's all good.
Get to it guys!
:D

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:16 PM
Pretty much the update I expected. Would have liked a bit more of a true legendary stretch goal, but oh well.

Qorsair
05-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Pretty much the update I expected. Would have liked a bit more of a true legendary stretch goal, but oh well.

Tablet support is a truly legendary stretch goal.

MatWith1T
05-23-2013, 02:17 PM
More gameplay video/streaming coming... I am satisfied.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:18 PM
We still need clarification on the collectors tier. I assume that will be coming soon.

I sent them a message after the update, hopefully it will be reflected in the infographic updates tonight.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:18 PM
Tablet support is a truly legendary stretch goal.

Well, it's a way to broaden the player base, but it won't affect the way I play personally anytime soon.

Neither will the motion comic goal from the last reveal.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 02:19 PM
The thing that has me worried: Crypto is trying to prevent people from having multiple in game accounts. Most of the people that have multiple tiers have some in either GK or PP. Adding the nonstackable 1 yr to other tiers encourages people to just have separate accounts.

Daer
05-23-2013, 02:19 PM
Just wish we didn't have to wait so long for the next twitch stream.

FireBomberSeven
05-23-2013, 02:19 PM
Looking forward to the stream on Monday. Hopefully they'll show off more than just two decks like last time. Would be nice to see some more variety of deck builds.

elsimer
05-23-2013, 02:20 PM
Pretty much the update I expected. Would have liked a bit more of a true legendary stretch goal, but oh well.

considering how much money it takes to push up the timetable of a tablet version of the game, I still think it's a legendary stretch goal. Of course, I've seen my fair share of 'legendary' TCG cards that I wouldn't have considered legendary too.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:20 PM
Well, it's a way to broaden the player base, but it won't affect the way I play personally anytime soon.

Neither will the motion comic goal from the last reveal.

It will affect the way you play personally in minor ways. More players may result in the card/equipment you wanted being in the AH when it might not have been otherwise. It might result in someone buying an item of yours from the AH when it may not have sold otherwise. It might result in the game having enough popularity to stay afloat when it may not have otherwise. In my opinion this is one of the best possible stretch goals they could have announced.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:22 PM
It will affect the way you play personally in minor ways. More players may result in the card/equipment you wanted being in the AH when it might not have been otherwise. It might result in someone buying an item of yours from the AH when it may not have sold otherwise. It might result in the game having enough popularity to stay afloat when it may not have otherwise. In my opinion this is one of the best possible stretch goals they could have announced.

Before you go into specifics, remember the following:
1) This game was built with mobile in mind, so it would have come eventually anyway
2) They haven't announced if the mobile app will be available at beta, launch, or later
3) They have yet to pass the AppStore and Android Play content store wall
4) They have yet to announce what features will be supported in the apps
5) The app has to be successful before it makes a difference. I've seen a few games which had great mechanics but die in the App Store/Play because they never get "discovered" by the platform.

LexC
05-23-2013, 02:23 PM
OMG!!! My Pro is now worthless, now everyone is getting the same stuff as me... what am I going to... LOL no, just kidding :P

I like what they did, always did to be honest, I have Pro and I stick with it, it works better for me in the long run and that's all that matters!

Gorgol
05-23-2013, 02:24 PM
This was an amazingly smart move on CZE's part. I applaud them. Everybody now gets the same things from the last stretch goal.

ratceo
05-23-2013, 02:24 PM
Why not give all tiers something unique as a legendary reward. I still feel pretty underwhelmed by 1-15 packs as the legendary reward. I hope you guys keep up with the daily updates.

Ditsch
05-23-2013, 02:25 PM
So legendary means some booster from tier 2 , so now i wait to see them tomorrow making it again less legendary by adding tablet support without stretchgoal. :)

Skylmt
05-23-2013, 02:25 PM
legendary dont look legendary anymore... but good thing they did that to help people decide..

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 02:25 PM
Why not give all tiers something unique as a legendary reward. I still feel pretty underwhelmed by 1-15 packs as the legendary reward. I hope you guys keep up with the daily updates.

Consider the first thing listed to be the stretch goal and everything else as an added thank you bonus.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:26 PM
The legendary wasn't for you, hell none of the goals were for you, or for me, or for any one tier, or even for a collection of tiers. They were strides this community were making possible for this game. This is a huge hurdle, getting over all of the arguments tyrfang made, we don't have any of that stuff done, which is why this goal is so legendary.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:27 PM
Before you go into specifics, remember the following:
1) This game was built with mobile in mind, so it would have come eventually anyway
2) They haven't announced if the mobile app will be available at beta, launch, or later
3) They have yet to pass the AppStore and Android Play content store wall
4) They have yet to announce what features will be supported in the apps
5) The app has to be successful before it makes a difference. I've seen a few games which had great mechanics but die in the App Store/Play because they never get "discovered" by the platform.

1) Built with mobile in mind, but sooner instead of later can be the difference between make or break on a game. If the hype is gone before mobile is available then what's the point?
2) They said they will hire a team to do it, so it will be ready sooner than previously planned.
3) It is a lot easier to get past the store walls with a finished product
4) There would be no reason to develop a minimalist product for mobile devices, since it would not actually generate additional revenue. Very few people would play a game on their mobile device exclusively if they couldn't access many of the game's features. This would not generate revenue for CZE.
5) Except Your wrong (see what I did there?), because the one time I did use your in my previous comment I used the correct form. (Congrats on the ninja-edit, but your original post resorted to being a grammar nazi... and a terribly incorrect one at that. Being petty in a discussion does nothing but make any point you are TRYING to make that much more underwhelming).

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Personally I would have liked an announcement about player housing or a world championship pot or something.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:29 PM
Personally I would have liked an announcement about player housing or a world championship pot or something.

This literally made me want to stab you in the eye, with a spike made of eye violence.

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 02:30 PM
Personally I would have liked an announcement about player housing or a world championship pot or something.

keep seeing layer housing mentioned in just about every game lol

Digital_Aether
05-23-2013, 02:32 PM
so it would have come eventually anyway

This shouldn't be a surprise, as CZE has directly said that as this game is an MMO, there's a continually planned content pipeline for future growth. They also explicitly stated that stretch goals were about moving up the timeline of those features. These stretch goals give them the money to fund more work to be done now instead of waiting until after release to build it slower.

The game is pre-alpha and trying to get funding. Of course it doesn't have store approval, final feature sets, etc. It's still got to be made. That's kind of why there's the kickstarter going on. They can only give us what they intend to do, and it's up to us to decide if it's worth our money to support it.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:32 PM
This literally made me want to stab you in the eye, with a spike made of eye violence.

Well player housing is a much more beneficial tool for the longevity of the game than tablet support. You filthy casuals and your tomfoolery.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:34 PM
Well player housing is a much more beneficial tool for the longevity of the game than tablet support. You filthy casuals and your tomfoolery.

I cannot feel anymore. I think that Tyrfang turned me into a sociopath.

DeusPhasmatis
05-23-2013, 02:34 PM
Personally I would have liked an announcement about player housing or a world championship pot or something.

Isn't Keep Defense basically player housing, but more awesome?

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:34 PM
Isn't Keep Defense basically player housing, but more awesome?

Good catch! The world has meaning again.

houjix
05-23-2013, 02:35 PM
If I recall, they said they were using a platform that would be easier to port to mobile in case they decided to go that route, not that it was an absolute certainty. The very successful KS campaign has made it a high probability and if we reach the stretch goal, a certainty.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:36 PM
This literally made me want to stab you in the eye, with a spike made of eye violence.

So you would like to physically attack me as a result of me wanting a gameplay-related stretch goal?

I sincerely believe that an announcement about a previously undisclosed PvE feature or serious competitive goal would have driven donations and general interest much more than announcing tablet support.

I don't doubt that it is possible for a Hex App to do well, but I could not care less about tablets. It was going to happen either way, and I personally think that if it happened a year down the line with 3 sets already in place and a solid community that the game would have been better off overall.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:38 PM
Isn't Keep Defense basically player housing, but more awesome?

True enough. Still, I could look over the stretch goals list from a week or two ago and find a few more great gameplay ideas that could be implemented.

Daer
05-23-2013, 02:40 PM
Tyrfang has so many good ideas, Cryptozoic should hire him.

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 02:41 PM
if you want player housing go buy a sims game and you can build your own house there lol

Joolz
05-23-2013, 02:41 PM
So you would like to physically attack me as a result of me wanting a gameplay-related stretch goal?

I sincerely believe that an announcement about a previously undisclosed PvE feature or serious competitive goal would have driven donations and general interest much more than announcing tablet support.

I don't doubt that it is possible for a Hex App to do well, but I could not care less about tablets. It was going to happen either way, and I personally think that if it happened a year down the line with 3 sets already in place and a solid community that the game would have been better off overall.

There's a lot of stretch goals which I don't personally care about (motion comics? eh, cool I guess) but there's enough a lot of variety in the features/rewards given out in the goals and for sure some of them will entice people to play the game that normally wouldn't (or play it sooner than they normally would have). Tablet support is one of those features.

houjix
05-23-2013, 02:42 PM
True enough. Still, I could look over the stretch goals list from a week or two ago and find a few more great gameplay ideas that could be implemented.

We all know an MMO or a TCG is never finished right at launch. Take a moment to read update #11 in which Corey lays out how there will be many more additions as the game goes on. There is only so much that can be implemented at the start without delaying the game. So keep the ideas coming, they are listening.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:43 PM
There's a lot of stretch goals which I don't personally care about (motion comics? eh, cool I guess) but there's enough a lot of variety in the features/rewards given out in the goals and for sure some of them will entice people to play the game that normally wouldn't (or play it sooner than they normally would have). Tablet support is one of those features.

Yeah, I agree Motion Comics was another goal I wasn't thrilled about...

Sad that the last two goals were blanks, to me.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:45 PM
So you would like to physically attack me as a result of me wanting a gameplay-related stretch goal?

I sincerely believe that an announcement about a previously undisclosed PvE feature or serious competitive goal would have driven donations and general interest much more than announcing tablet support.

I don't doubt that it is possible for a Hex App to do well, but I could not care less about tablets. It was going to happen either way, and I personally think that if it happened a year down the line with 3 sets already in place and a solid community that the game would have been better off overall.

So you specifically say that you would be okay with them simply telling us about some already planned, but previously undisclosed PvE feature as a stretch goal. You then go on reiterate your distaste for the tablet support as a stretch goal because it was already planned and would have occurred at some point anyways?

Xexist
05-23-2013, 02:46 PM
We still need clarification on the collectors tier. I assume that will be coming soon.


They'll complain? That's their only recourse. CZE just took an official stance on it, and it looks fine to me.

I wasnt happy with the goal previously. Now I am, aside from that this is how it should have been done in the first place. I find the legendary goal a little underwhelming, but now that the tiers are being padded separate from the stretch goal, I no longer have to feel deliberately excluded.

This was a good move on their part.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:48 PM
So you would like to physically attack me as a result of me being a complete and total tool?

Yes.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 02:48 PM
I sincerely believe that an announcement about a previously undisclosed PvE feature or serious competitive goal would have driven donations and general interest much more than announcing tablet support.Tablet Support is actually what kept me at Grand King x2. Without it I would have to come up with a Thin Client/Server structure to create an environment in a game store that would setup tournaments easily while providing a small footprint, instead of requiring everyone to bring a PC. It also has the added bonus that I have 2 family more family members that can play and know at least 6 more locally who can now play and back it.


It was going to happen either way, and I personally think that if it happened a year down the line with 3 sets already in place and a solid community that the game would have been better off overall.You have high hopes if you thought it would happen a year down the line. The game would need to do well. They would have to have enough profit to generate and allow the hiring of a dev team to port it to tablets. It was built with it in mind but not setup for it yet. It could of taken 2+ years and that can have serious consequences.

Not to mention the sooner Tablet support happens, the sooner a real money tournament will happen. They said they wanted to do real money tournaments where players attended. It is going to be a pain to setup a LAN infrastructure to do that given their current staff and facilities. This allows this to not only happen sooner but in a efficient method that could potentially even make the tournaments much bigger. It is pretty much a win/win for everyone, not just CZE and not just for those that wanted Tablets much sooner than soon(tm).

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 02:49 PM
No way, the motion comic thing is awesome. They're trying to do what they can to reach out to a broader market, and that's the kind of thing that might catch someone's attention and lure them into give a TCG a chance when they otherwise may not have.

Of course, I haven't seen this motion comic, so who knows how impressive it may or may not actually turn out to be. I understand why they would do it, however. Besides, I see it as just one more thing to add a layer of polish to the game!

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 02:49 PM
So you specifically say that you would be okay with them simply telling us about some already planned, but previously undisclosed PvE feature as a stretch goal. You then go on reiterate your distaste for the tablet support as a stretch goal because it was already planned and would have occurred at some point anyways?

Tablet support was more or less a given if Hex grows popular enough - I don't see the point in making it a stretch goal. Just announce it separately and save the stretch goals for stuff that everyone would be interested in, or at least all the PvE or PvP players.

Garod
05-23-2013, 02:51 PM
Honestly happy that they removed the 1 year from the stretch goal, it's a re-balancing.
However as many others have stated, the Legendary stretch goal is far from Legendary. I really would have thought that they would spend a little more thought on that...
Missed opportunity honestly to get the momentum we lost back....
@Crypto
Please take a look at the last 2 days figures, I'm sorry but your decisions have had a big impact on the momentum of this KS. I hope you take a 3rd look at this and find a way to pull it back in.
If you don't bring an update which wow's we've lost momentum..
I suggest a combined PvE update with something to show
I'd like to say re-think the last Legendary Goal, but if you do that it'll just look worse.
Maybe towards the end of the KS you can pull another rabbit out of the hat with a hidden Stretch or a You Win type of thing which mimic's a stretch goal.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 02:53 PM
if Hex grows popular enoughThis ensures that it has a higher success rate and greater chance of it being popular from the start and growing larger... not having to wait for it to reach a certain point before they hire new people. It is still a win/win. There is no upside to "waiting for it to grow popular" providing they had the funds to do it in the first place (ie: what a goal is for).

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
This is how kickstarters work, all of them. Hex has been a major exception in that the lull didn't start a week ago. It's time for a lull, that is okay, normal and healthy. They didn't do anything to cause it. The big deal tiers sold out, people stopped stacking, now we need to just make 18k a day, and pull in new unique players. Then there will be a big ramp up in the last few days of the kickstarter, like there always is. The sky isn't falling chicken little, it's okay.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
Tablet support was more or less a given if Hex grows popular enough - I don't see the point in making it a stretch goal. Just announce it separately and save the stretch goals for stuff that everyone would be interested in, or at least all the PvE or PvP players.

I will defer to DarkSeverance's response as it is a fairly accurate statement of how I feel. You say that if the game was popular enough they would have developed tablet support. I feel that by funding it now it will earn that kind of popularity or more. Some stretch goals may seem nice right now, but if the choices are a game being more successful versus less successful, I choose the option that has the potential to draw in more players. PvE has months to be spoiled, and it will generate enough hype in its own right when it is revealed.

Garod
05-23-2013, 02:57 PM
While as I said in previous post while re-balancing the 250 tiers was the right thing to do.. the fall out it caused has definitely had an impact on the KS in a negative way. Yesterday lowest pledge amount ever and 2nd lowest amount of new backers. Today is not looking brilliant either... so that kind of makes me wonder if it was worth the controversy and negativity it sprouted...
Hindsight is 20/20 but I think it could have been done better...

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 02:58 PM
This is how kickstarters work, all of them. Hex has been a major exception in that the lull didn't start a week ago. It's time for a lull, that is okay, normal and healthy. They didn't do anything to cause it. The big deal tiers sold out, people stopped stacking, now we need to just make 18k a day, and pull in new unique players. Then there will be a big ramp up in the last few days of the kickstarter, like there always is. The sky isn't falling chicken little, it's okay.

^

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Obviously, given the way they edited their Legendary stretch goal, they realize they would have been better not including that as part of a stretch goal to begin with and instead just announcing it separately as a tier rebalancing. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that jazz.

Garod
05-23-2013, 03:00 PM
You are right that mid KS lull is pretty normal, but Hex wasn't a normal KS. You have to admit that it's unlikely that it's coincidence that the figures dropped the same day as update 14 came out.

Lochar
05-23-2013, 03:00 PM
Kickstarters normally sputter days before this one did. It built up abnormally long before hitting the slow stage. We didn't lose pledge amounts because of the stretch goal, we lost pledge amounts because there's not mid-range pledges to buy anymore.

CZE, my suggestion? Since you can't update the pledges with people pledged to them, put it across the top of the kickstarter in big bold words that the other $250 tiers get the draft for a year. Most people are probably going to miss it just looking at the pledges on the side with as much update as there's been.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:00 PM
Please take a look at the last 2 days figures, I'm sorry but your decisions have had a big impact on the momentum of this KS.The only thing effecting the momentum of the KS is that there are barely any Top Tiers left available.

There are 13 Producer, 19 Immortal, 23 Primal tiers that are unaffected by this announcement. No amount of buffing to those would suddenly make them sell. It is just simply a lot of money. So lets look at more realistic for average players.

Dragon Lord gone, Grand King gone, Pro Player gone! That only leaves a 250 tiers or less than are viable, so of course it is going to slow down. There is less reason to buy multiple 250 tiers and stack them, unless you did with Pro Players and Grand Kings like they have already. They have gone through 100 Dungeon Crawlers though in about a day and half. King has also gone up as well as other lower tiers as well. People are backing but the money moving tiers are all gone. It is expected for it to slow down.

Joolz
05-23-2013, 03:01 PM
No way, the motion comic thing is awesome. They're trying to do what they can to reach out to a broader market, and that's the kind of thing that might catch someone's attention and lure them into give a TCG a chance when they otherwise may not have.

Of course, I haven't seen this motion comic, so who knows how impressive it may or may not actually turn out to be. I understand why they would do it, however. Besides, I see it as just one more thing to add a layer of polish to the game!

Well I'm glad to hear you're looking forward to it ;) I know I'm going to play and have fun with Hex pretty much regardless so if the stretch goals get people excited then great. So in a twisted kind of way I like it more when features/goals were added I wasn't interested in.

Dralon
05-23-2013, 03:01 PM
Tablet support was more or less a given if Hex grows popular enough - I don't see the point in making it a stretch goal. Just announce it separately and save the stretch goals for stuff that everyone would be interested in, or at least all the PvE or PvP players.

Tablet support as a stretch goal means it will happen Much Much sooner. That takes some degree of trust and belief, which I have no reason to deny to CZE at this point. Video game release dates, feature updates, usually fluctuate, and the farther you are out, the more flux there will be, and this will be no exception. I don't need a firm statement "Tablet functionality at launch" at this time.

They have always said that this was built from the ground up to eventually port to tablets, but to actually get that done soon, I fully expect was not in the immediete plans due to staff and funding. If we STRETCH to 1.5M that allows a significant chunk of change to be invested in a feature that will be huge for the community playing the game...whether you play it on a tablet or not. I am not sure what Legendary Reward people were expecting, but to be able to play this on a tablet as well as a PC is a Great Reward IMO.

If there were no stretch goals, no stretch rewards, My contribution to it would not change one dime.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:01 PM
While as I said in previous post while re-balancing the 250 tiers was the right thing to do.. the fall out it caused has definitely had an impact on the KS in a negative way. Yesterday lowest pledge amount ever and 2nd lowest amount of new backers. Today is not looking brilliant either... so that kind of makes me wonder if it was worth the controversy and negativity it sprouted...
Hindsight is 20/20 but I think it could have been done better...

You haven't considered all of the factors, and instead just assumed it's because of a bunch of negative feedback and controversy. There was a massive rush to buy the last available slots for one of the most desirable pledge tiers available. Rather than people gradually deciding it was worth the money and creating a slow steady stream of pledgers throughout the kickstarter, these people were forced to make up their mind and lock down those spots immediately. This means that the next day people who may have pledged that day were already locked in. If you want to see the real effects of the so-called "controversy" Guild Master (by far the worst $250 pledge) has 17 locked in, compared to the 5 that were generated the first half of the entire kickstarter. Additionally, none of the other $250 tiers have dropped, and the King pledges continue to increase.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:02 PM
You have to admit that it's unlikely that it's coincidence that the figures dropped the same day as update 14 came out.Not if those figures also dropped the same day that Grand King sold out and Pro Player sold out the day before. Those were the tiers driving the backing because you could stack their bonuses.

Garod
05-23-2013, 03:02 PM
Lochar what do you mean all the other 250 tiers are still open. With all this bubbub about 1 year free draft why aren't those tiers racing to completion..?
Which again poses the question was the negativity on the forums as well as the KS worth it.

from the looks of it few people actually upgraded to the 250 tiers which now have 1 year free draft. We should have seen an incredible spike on Update 14 and if not at Update 14 then we should now see a massive spike with 15... if tomorrow the figures are still as low as they are..

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:02 PM
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/#chart-daily

This project averaged about the same per day as our project is. That is a normal kickstarter distribution. I can post literally hundreds of other examples. Since ours has been so strong out of the gate, I would expect for us to be in the 10-15000 a day area, and we're above that so far.

The biggest concern is if we will be able to pull in 200+ new unique backers a day to get us on par with that game that also was considered to have a pretty exceptionally low number of backers for the amount raised.

Mike411
05-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Sad that the last two goals were blanks, to me.

I'm sad that an increased playerbase as a result, doesn't matter to some :(

Lochar
05-23-2013, 03:04 PM
Lochar what do you mean all the other 250 tiers are still open. With all this bubbub about 1 year free draft why aren't those tiers racing to completion..?
Which again poses the question was the negativity on the forums as well as the KS worth it.

Because until today's update, them having the draft for a year wasn't guaranteed. Which is why I suggest to CZE that they put it in big, BOLD emblazoned across the top of the KS that they now do definitely get the one year free draft.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:05 PM
Lochar what do you mean all the other 250 tiers are still open. With all this bubbub about 1 year free draft why aren't those tiers racing to completion..?
Which again poses the question was the negativity on the forums as well as the KS worth it.

Those free drafts don't stack. Stacking multiple tiers netted you multiple free drafts for life, so people would pledge x4. The only way to get your money back on one of the $250 pledges now is if you are upgrading from a King or lower tier.

Garod
05-23-2013, 03:06 PM
@Lochar I hope so, I really do, so I'm hoping I wake up tomorrow and see that we've jumped 50k upward.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
@Lochar I hope so, I really do, so I'm hoping I wake up tomorrow and see that we've jumped 50k upward.

We won't have! Because that's not how it works!

Lochar
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
@Lochar I hope so, I really do, so I'm hoping I wake up tomorrow and see that we've jumped 50k upward.

We'll have to see what they do with the main page. They'll need to make it fairly obvious for people looking in, not have to dig through updates and pictures to figure out the change.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
With all this bubbub about 1 year free draft why aren't those tiers racing to completion..?Easy there are 2 reasons.

1 : The free 1 year draft isn't a guarantee.
2 : The biggest reason though... those tiers don't stack. Multiple Pro-Player and Grand King tiers stack. They had the ability to get multiple free drafts and combine them on one account. None of the other 250 tiers have anything that would benefit from stacking. Guild leader bonus doesn't stack, the dungeon bonus doesn't stack, there free draft doesn't stack. Hence only one person per account will buy it. King however has gone up quite a bit. Most are buying a 250, then multiple King tiers since they are out of Grand Kings.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:09 PM
This ensures that it has a higher success rate and greater chance of it being popular from the start and growing larger... not having to wait for it to reach a certain point before they hire new people. It is still a win/win. There is no upside to "waiting for it to grow popular" providing they had the funds to do it in the first place (ie: what a goal is for).

There's a lot of assumptions on both sides. Again, as I said previously, I don't doubt the ability of Hex to succeed as an app. Still, App Development is a risk that increases the cost of supporting the game as well as the development cost. It's not automatically win/win if app sales are poor or conversion from app customers into pay customers is ridiculously low.

For example, what if a significant share of app players only play PvE and never buy any product - so much so that it costs more to support them than the company earns in cash flow off apps?

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:10 PM
You will be able to buy gold with money, that's what all app people do, gold will buy pve things. They will pay something if they like the game, if it's only to buy pve things.

arastor
05-23-2013, 03:11 PM
I agree with everyone saying that the loss of momentum for the KS was not tied to the whole thing with the legendary stretch goal. It was just normal KS behavior kicking in after the abnormal awesomeness of the PP, GK, and DL being expended. Most people visiting the KS probably don't even realize that the tiers have been balanced out, so once that is realized, it may rejuvenate the funding a bit, although I'm imagining that we won't see too much more action until the last 48 hours.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:12 PM
I don't understand why tablet support is automatically linked with increased player population in everyone's minds.

I guess I've seen way too many apps fail or platforms get cut off from support to make that logical jump.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:13 PM
There's a lot of assumptions on both sides. Again, as I said previously, I don't doubt the ability of Hex to succeed as an app. Still, App Development is a risk that increases the cost of supporting the game as well as the development cost. It's not automatically win/win if app sales are poor or conversion from app customers into pay customers is ridiculously low.

For example, what if a significant share of app players only play PvE and never buy any product - so much so that it costs more to support them than the company earns in cash flow off apps?

This is an opportunity for CZE to hire staff paid for by their future players to develop tablet support. To throw out some random arbitrary numbers, I would much rather wager the success of a game on a player-base of 300,000 players than 220,000 players.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:15 PM
I don't understand why tablet support is automatically linked with increased player population in everyone's minds.

I guess I've seen way too many apps fail or platforms get cut off from support to make that logical jump.

Logic: More ways to access something = more people accessing something. (especially when dealing with the large amount of people who own each individual access method)

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:20 PM
Logic: More ways to access something = more people accessing something. (especially when dealing with the large amount of people who own each individual access method)

...but it's not methods of access that matters, but being in the channels of content discovery.

Basically, unless they get featured in the App Store or Play, very few people will install that program on that platform. It's an amazingly annoying issue for app devs, especially indie/first time devs.

I feel that PSVita, Nintendo Marketplace, and XBLA would have been better platforms to support, and access an entirely different set of potential customers.

Edit: That begs the question, why ISN'T PSVita, Nintendo Marketplace, and XBLA supported? If they're using Unity as their game engine, it's pretty easy to publish to them. I guess the in-app purchases?

jai151
05-23-2013, 03:22 PM
Tablet support was more or less a given if Hex grows popular enough - I don't see the point in making it a stretch goal. Just announce it separately and save the stretch goals for stuff that everyone would be interested in, or at least all the PvE or PvP players.

No such thing. You cannot please everybody

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:24 PM
...but it's not methods of access that matters, but being in channels of content discovery.

Just because you write something eloquently doesn't fill it with substance.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:25 PM
increases the cost of supporting the game as well as the development cost.Hence the whole purpose of the goal, so they can fund it and hire a team for it.


For example, what if a significant share of app players only play PvE and never buy any product - so much so that it costs more to support them than the company earns in cash flow off apps?It won't happen. The same servers and infrastructure they use for PVE is going to the same they use on the CPU, there are no added cost of running it. There are a lot of free Apps that would disagree that people don't buy anything and all they do is PvE.


I guess I've seen way too many apps fail or platforms get cut off from support to make that logical jump.Except you are treating it as if the app was a seperate product, by itself stand alone with its own population vs actually part of the CPU playerbase as well.

The reason it will be popular? Portability. Ability to for game stores to run tournaments (I've already been asked by 2 how I can facilitate this for their stores). And do you realize how much people pour into their apps game where all they do is buy gold to increase their PvE playability? Because there are a lot of them. I play them and laugh at the people spending the money though. However HEX is slightly different in that aspect.

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 03:26 PM
Do all $250 tiers have 1 draft/week for free now? I thought this was already mentioned in Update #14, but maybe i'm misreading something. Is there anything new in Update #15? o:

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Just because you write something eloquently doesn't fill it with substance.

Okay, content discovery is being featured on Steam's front page, best sellers, steam sales, humble bundles, Steam greenlight, Google Play's editor picks, Google Play's top free/paid lists, Apple's top free/paid lists, etc.

Just being on the platform doesn't matter much, you need a way for people to find you through the massive sea of crapware that is in mobile apps.

jai151
05-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Do all $250 tiers have 1 draft/week for free now? I thought this was already mentioned in Update #14, but maybe i'm misreading something. Is there anything new in Update #15? o:

It was made available now rather than on condition of the final stretch goal

nearlysober
05-23-2013, 03:27 PM
All the $250 tiers will have a built in 1 draft/week free for 1 year.

Only Pro Player (and Grand King & above) will have 1 draft/week for life of game.

This is great because it will get more people hooked on drafting :)

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 03:27 PM
It was made available now rather than on condition of the final stretch goal
Ahh, okay. Thanks jai!

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Do all $250 tiers have 1 draft/week for free now? I thought this was already mentioned in Update #14, but maybe i'm misreading something. Is there anything new in Update #15? o:

The moved it off of the stretch goal and now every $250 tier gets that reward. Before, if we had failed to reach $1.5m, no free drafts.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 03:28 PM
Do all $250 tiers have 1 draft/week for free now? I thought this was already mentioned in Update #14, but maybe i'm misreading something. Is there anything new in Update #15? o:

All $250 tiers get free drafts for the first year of the game, however you can only get this benefit once, and it does not stack with any of the lifetime free draft benefits.

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 03:30 PM
It's probably a good thing that the tiers are more balanced now (and hopefully it'll get us to Tablet status faster)! :)
But I guess I kind of see why some of the PP pledgers were upset. I'm sure everyone will forget about it when we're all having fun in beta. <3

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:30 PM
Basically, unless they get featured in the App Store or Play, very few people will install that program on that platform. It's an amazingly annoying issue for app devs, especially indie/first time devs.Sol Forge would like to disagree. Also CZE isn't a indie first time. They actually have a couple TCG apps "Penny Arcade" and "Food Fight". I'm not sure if you have heard of Penny Arcade, they kind of have a presence themselves. In fact they even did a comic about Hex:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/05/10


why ISN'T PSVita, Nintendo Marketplace, and XBLA supported? If they're using Unity as their game engine, it's pretty easy to publish to them. I guess the in-app purchases?I take it you aren't a programmer or understand the difference in programming that would take? It would definitely take a bigger team, cost a lot more to switch development from a PC/Tablet programming and infrastructure to add in for a PSVita, Nintendo, etc. There is a reason why most MMO's that are on both Console and PC have different servers and aren't on the same world (which is their greatest weakness). If that was to happen to HEX there would be no point for Tablet support honestly but it isn't... because they are similar in designs and structure based on what they have designed.

4acrossisemu
05-23-2013, 03:32 PM
Do all $250 tiers have 1 draft/week for free now? I thought this was already mentioned in Update #14, but maybe i'm misreading something. Is there anything new in Update #15? o:

1 year of it yea, pro is still the only tier (well that and the above tiers that include it) that have it for life.

I'm a little exhausted already by the shear number of poeple with bowls out expecting more. The tablet support is brillant news. As it's pretty much brought forward and as a community creates more avenues for the game to be successful. It was a give granted now it's going to get it sooner.

CE - Please be a little bit more willful and stop bending so easy to pressures or it will never stop. It's great that you listen and i think what you did with the tiers was good, Just try not to be terrified of saying no we have a Seldon plan.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:35 PM
Hence the whole purpose of the goal, so they can fund it and hire a team for it.

It won't happen. The same servers and infrastructure they use for PVE is going to the same they use on the CPU, there are no added cost of running it. There are a lot of free Apps that would disagree that people don't buy anything and all they do is PvE.

Except you are treating it as if the app was a seperate product, by itself stand alone with its own population vs actually part of the CPU playerbase as well.

The reason it will be popular? Portability.

PvE customers are not costless. The server has to be scaled up for additional players (at least at the order of magnitudes we're talking about), it requires additional support staff to handle tickets/bugs, and additional devs to implement future features. App development is always a risk...

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:36 PM
PvE customers are not costless. The server has to be scaled up for additional players (at least at the order of magnitudes we're talking about), it requires additional support staff to handle tickets/bugs, and additional devs to implement future features. App development is always a risk...

Which is why it's a legendary stretch goal to begin to fund all of that. Thanks for finally catching up with the rest of us on this.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:38 PM
I take it you aren't a programmer or understand the difference in programming that would take? It would definitely take a bigger team, cost a lot more to switch development from a PC/Tablet programming and infrastructure to add in for a PSVita, Nintendo, etc. There is a reason why most MMO's that are on both Console and PC have different servers and aren't on the same world (which is their greatest weakness). If that was to happen to HEX there would be no point for Tablet support honestly but it isn't... because they are similar in designs and structure based on what they have designed.

PSVita and Nintendo Marketplace are surprisingly small-sized-developer friendly and, again, if they are programming using Unity, they can publish onto those platforms with a similar amount of time (possibly less) as Apple's AppStore or Google Play.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:40 PM
PvE customers are not costless. The server has to be scaled up for additional players (at least at the order of magnitudes we're talking about), it requires additional support staff to handle tickets/bugs, and additional devs to implement future features. App development is always a risk...PvE is not costless but already a cost that has been factored in. They actually wouldn't need to scale the server up for additional players given the footprint of the game engine and mechanics they've designed. This isn't "World of Warcraft" or "Guild Wars 2" MMO type footprint, this is a TCG based that doesn't take a lot of huge system resources from a server or client.

App development by itself could be a risk if that was the only medium. This isn't just an app. This is a product that was designed to be able to be ported to Tablet and run in that environment. There is also no cost for support or devs, hence the stretch goal. That stretch goal pays for the ability to hire the team they need for it. Also there are no future features that aren't being developed for Hex itself, it isn't like it is a separate product ran on its own.

CoolGrayAJ
05-23-2013, 03:43 PM
Sol Forge would like to disagree. Also CZE isn't a indie first time. They actually have a couple TCG apps "Penny Arcade" and "Food Fight". I'm not sure if you have heard of Penny Arcade, they kind of have a presence themselves. In fact they even did a comic about Hex:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/05/10

Playdek published those on iOS, not CZE.

jai151
05-23-2013, 03:44 PM
PvE customers are not costless. The server has to be scaled up for additional players (at least at the order of magnitudes we're talking about), it requires additional support staff to handle tickets/bugs, and additional devs to implement future features. App development is always a risk...

PVE customers are also not completely without revenue stream. Some percentage of them will want to try PVP, and some percentage will buy boosters to enhance their PVE decks.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:45 PM
of they are programming using UnityI'm sorry, did they say somewhere they were using Unity? I hope they aren't honestly because Unity is terrible.

Until I can VPN or RMD from a PSVita into my CPU and run my Guild Wars 2, WoW or other MMO client and actually play it... then I might see some validity in going that route. I can already do those things easily with my iPad.

Vibraxus
05-23-2013, 03:46 PM
You are right that mid KS lull is pretty normal, but Hex wasn't a normal KS. You have to admit that it's unlikely that it's coincidence that the figures dropped the same day as update 14 came out.

It is a no coincidence that the pledges dropped when the uber tiers sold out. The left over tiers looked lackluster to new supporters when compared to GK, PP and up because, well they are since we dont have any deep info into PVE. If folks thought PP was undervalued now, they wouldnt be snatched up within a minute of opening up.

CZE did what they needed to do to make those PvE tiers look much more appealing. And the fact that those tiers have started selling proves it worked. They wont sell like the PP did, but the firesale on PP started when the "You can stack" thing was announced.

All this whining just looks like people havin buyers remorse...if thats the case, drop your extra PPs, add on a Collector, or whetever and enjoy.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:47 PM
PVE customers are also not completely without revenue stream. Some percentage of them will want to try PVP, and some percentage will buy boosters to enhance their PVE decks.

Sorry, it's probably hard to follow multiple convos. I acknowledged that previously, I'm just trying to make the point that apps don't just automatically print money and have their own real costs associated with developing and supporting them, as well as an opportunity cost in that the funds could be spent on other features/platforms.

kirkwb
05-23-2013, 03:48 PM
I take it you aren't a programmer or understand the difference in programming that would take? It would definitely take a bigger team, cost a lot more to switch development from a PC/Tablet programming and infrastructure to add in for a PSVita, Nintendo, etc. There is a reason why most MMO's that are on both Console and PC have different servers and aren't on the same world (which is their greatest weakness). If that was to happen to HEX there would be no point for Tablet support honestly but it isn't... because they are similar in designs and structure based on what they have designed.

I take it you don't know how Unity 3D works? (http://unity3d.com/unity/multiplatform/)

I mean, the plugins for each platform are not cheap, and you do need to do some tweaking and testing for each platform, but it's not the herculean task you've outlined.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:48 PM
Which is why it's a legendary stretch goal to begin to fund all of that. Thanks for finally catching up with the rest of us on this.
^

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Playdek published those on iOS, not CZE.So you mean those apps don't have CZE's name listed on the left side when you open them up? And they didn't manage or work with Playdek (ie: a veteran mobile team to put HEX on tablets) at all to create them? - Still proving the point that this isn't their first rodeo.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:50 PM
It is a no coincidence that the pledges dropped when the uber tiers sold out. The left over tiers looked lackluster to new supporters when compared to GK, PP and up because, well they are since we dont have any deep info into PVE. If folks thought PP was undervalued now, they wouldnt be snatched up within a minute of opening up.

CZE did what they needed to do to make those PvE tiers look much more appealing. And the fact that those tiers have started selling proves it worked. They wont sell like the PP did, but the firesale on PP started when the "You can stack" thing was announced.

All this whining just looks like people havin buyers remorse...if thats the case, drop your extra PPs, add on a Collector, or whetever and enjoy.

I would have preferred they just upped the amount of GK pledges available. I think the other tiers are selling just because the money has no other good tier besides king.

Not sure why someone with multiple PP would want to have a Collector instead if the drafts don't stack.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm sorry, did they say somewhere they were using Unity? I hope they aren't honestly because Unity is terrible.

If Unity is good enough for Torment and Wasteland 2, I don't think devs all agree with you.

jai151
05-23-2013, 03:54 PM
Sorry, it's probably hard to follow multiple convos. I acknowledged that previously, I'm just trying to make the point that apps don't just automatically print money and have their own real costs associated with developing and supporting them, as well as an opportunity cost in that the funds could be spent on other features/platforms.

True, but you can't look at the app in a vacuum either. The back end of the game doesn't change, so that development cost (the bulk of the game) is already paid for. The only revenue needing to be recouped is that from the interface design. Which, if we believe the KS, is about 300k.

Now the question is would they be better served spending that somewhere else? At this stage in the game, I can't see anything they could have announced as a feature that would have a greater impact on player acquisition for that amount.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 03:56 PM
What are the odds that we can all just agree to stop talking to this guy? He doesn't want to see how great this goal is, you can't make him do it. Anyone can see he is grasping for straws and has been. Let him wallow in his self inflicted misery and lets move along.

jai151
05-23-2013, 03:56 PM
I would have preferred they just upped the amount of GK pledges available. I think the other tiers are selling just because the money has no other good tier besides king.

Not sure why someone with multiple PP would want to have a Collector instead if the drafts don't stack.

They're not going to open any more sources of limitless cards. They capped those goals for a reason.

And someone with multiple Pro switching doesn't really help matters, it's revenue neutral.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 04:19 PM
I mean, the plugins for each platform are not cheap, and you do need to do some tweaking and testing for each platform, but it's not the herculean task you've outlined.Statement was based on me not knowing they used Unity. I asked the question if they had said they used Unity for it because I didn't recall seeing mention of it. If they are using Unity (which is still horrible) then it isn't as big but does still require slightly different group and aspect. As well as a company they haven't gone into this realm before but they have at least dealt with iOS in a way.

Cato
05-23-2013, 04:43 PM
Sounds like a fair rebalance to me. Tablet Support will be pretty epic for work. ;)

CoolGrayAJ
05-23-2013, 04:54 PM
So you mean those apps don't have CZE's name listed on the left side when you open them up? And they didn't manage or work with Playdek (ie: a veteran mobile team to put HEX on tablets) at all to create them? - Still proving the point that this isn't their first rodeo.

Someone's having a bad day :(

Talreth
05-23-2013, 04:57 PM
How has this not turned into a flame war after 12 pages? Really guys?

TheBlueMagician
05-23-2013, 05:07 PM
How has this not turned into a flame war after 12 pages? Really guys?

Gwaer doesn't have a critical mass of posts, that's how.

Also, Tyrfang is right about the visibility of Hex: while it's nice that it will get tablet support, if it isn't visible on the marketplace for each tablet/mobile device, it's going to draw in a largely irrelevant number of players.

I think it stands a good chance of being featured, but it's almost necessary for a mobile game to be highly visible in order to succeed.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 05:08 PM
I have exceeded critical mass, which is why this thread is so tame.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 05:09 PM
Someone's having a bad day :(Unfortunately... yes I am :( Probably why while stressing with with a contract I attack the forums in small bursts of rage! ^_^ Although on the positive side 4 day weekend coming up and I was offered a 125K salary job but not sure if I should take it.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 05:10 PM
I have exceeded critical mass, which is why this thread is so tame.

I just noticed you're only 2 posts behind me! Gotta say more things.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 05:11 PM
Unfortunately... yes I am :( Probably why while stressing with with a contract I attack the forums in small bursts of rage! ^_^ Although on the positive side 4 day weekend coming up and I was offered a 125K salary job but not sure if I should take it.

If this salary involves living somewhere that has snowfall <50% of the year, and the city's name does not end in etroit, then yes, you should take it.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 05:11 PM
Also, it will be featured on numerous gaming sites. The buzz will be going with or without being featured first in any marketplace. That isn't a requirement to popularity for a quality game. Being featured mostly helps mediocre games, with a few exceptions. Crypto is a known company with gaming connections already they don't have to worry about breaking into the scene, they already can demand quite a lot of attention just from their penny arcade connection.

Truhls
05-23-2013, 05:14 PM
Featured on gaming sites doesnt mean much. Mobile players get their games from word of mouth and features spots. They normally dont go to gaming sites.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 05:15 PM
Penny arcade? Mobile people don't do penny arcade? Everyone does penny arcade...

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 05:24 PM
Featured on gaming sites doesnt mean much. Mobile players get their games from word of mouth and features spots. They normally dont go to gaming sites.I'm pretty sure they go to GenCon and PAX Prime... mobile players as well. Not to mention the target market for it isn't specifically "mobile players" it would be TCG players, CPU players as well. Mobile just gives a lot more opportunities and diversity.

MasterPlan
05-23-2013, 07:49 PM
I would love to see digital boosters available at FLGS or the equivalent of time cards. I think it could be beneficial to the store (not taking up alot of realestate for physical product). Plus if they have decent online tournament tools etc, FLGS could run their own leagues. Especially with Tablet support. I see a tonne of tablets at my FLGS.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 08:28 PM
I'm pretty sure they go to GenCon and PAX Prime... mobile players as well. Not to mention the target market for it isn't specifically "mobile players" it would be TCG players, CPU players as well. Mobile just gives a lot more opportunities and diversity.

The players that go to GenCon and PAX Prime are much more likely to be willing to play the game on PC regardless of Tablet support. I doubt Tablet support is what wins these players over or increases their pledge.

Currently, the majority of tablet users will find their apps on the app store first, not search for them based on prior information. It's a similar situation with Steam, where steam sales and front page ads cause a huge boost in revenue. *Edit* - At least when it comes to non-marketed titles.