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View Full Version : @Crypto. The Danger with 1 Year Draft and Lifetime Not Stacking.



Brumby66
05-23-2013, 02:43 PM
First Off: I am not asking for them to stack nor do I want them to. Please read.

Crypto has specifically stated that they want people to only have one account to prevent the content from being trivialized. The thing that has me worried is that the 1 year draft will encourage those who are stacking with either a GK or PP and another 250 tier to simply create an alternate account and split the tiers up.

This isn't a "take this away from the other tiers or give me more" thread, so please don't turn this into that. I am stacking GK and a Collectors at the moment, and I know that quite a few are stacking similarly. The problem with this is that it encourages me to create 2 accounts to receive the full benefit of stacking those tiers. I really don't want to create accounts, but trust me this will be an issue.

It was stated that the 1/wk for a year from the other tiers will not stack with PP or GK. There is no reason for someone to put PP or GK with another tier on the same account anyways. Essentially making 2 accounts with separate pledges is going to yield me the benefit of both as if they were together anyways.. Again, not a complaint, just a legitimate concern.

Fireproof suit on!!!

The 2 Real Issues are:

1) Promotion of separate accounts by not allowing certain rewards to stack through merging tiers.

2) Multiboxing and how it has the potential to ruin PVE

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 02:46 PM
2 accounts really wouldnt be that bad, could use it for the free draft for a year then trade all your cards to your main account after it is over

Turtlewing
05-23-2013, 02:47 PM
Actually I believe they are saying "please stop stacking the tiers, why won't you stop stacking the tiers, what's wrong with you?"

Seriously though, I think the reason the made the free drafts for a year not stackable is because they don't want people stacking them (they want more individuals pledging not a few big spenders soaking up all the spots).

Joolz
05-23-2013, 02:47 PM
Hmm, good point. Sounds like an awful lot of work to me though. I imagine a few people will do this but I doubt it's go to break the economy or anything.

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 02:49 PM
whats the difference money wise if 1 person buys 10 $250 tiers or 10 people each buy 1? all it would mean is more people in beta a larger community but other then that the money is the same

Turtlewing
05-23-2013, 02:50 PM
whats the difference money wise if 1 person buys 10 $250 tiers or 10 people each buy 1? all it would mean is more people in beta a larger community but other then that the money is the same

The larger community translates into more long term income.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 02:52 PM
2 accounts really wouldnt be that bad, could use it for the free draft for a year then trade all your cards to your main account after it is over

That is what has me worried. They are encouraging me to create 2 accounts which I don't want to do lol. I'm a min/maxer at heart and think in this way. I don't doubt I'm alone though. It starts with making 2 accounts to get full benefits, and before you know it, you are raiding with yourself lol.

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 02:53 PM
all it would mean is more people in beta a larger community but other then that the money is the same

That's just it though, larger community # money is the same.

Lochar
05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
Multi-boxing, Everquest style!

No GM, I'm not running an entire 18 man raid by myself. Why do you ask?

... Crap, I answered with all the accounts at once, didn't I?

MatWith1T
05-23-2013, 02:56 PM
I was under the impression that while stacking tiers into one account is ok, multiple accounts are not going to be permitted. Sure, people will do it anyways, with varying levels of success depending on CZE's enforcement; but part of that min/max mentality should include the risk of losing those perks if caught violating the Terms of Service.

(Again, don't remember if there is an official stance on multiple accounts, but believe that they are verboten. May well be wrong on this.)

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 02:59 PM
I was under the impression that while stacking tiers into one account is ok, multiple accounts are not going to be permitted. Sure, people will do it anyways, with varying levels of success depending on CZE's enforcement; but part of that min/max mentality should include the risk of losing those perks if caught violating the Terms of Service.

(Again, don't remember if there is an official stance on multiple accounts, but believe that they are verboten. May well be wrong on this.)

The problem is they can't really catch people. Can't do it through IP, because multiple people could be playing together. Can't do it through credit card because not only do I have more than one, but some backers don't have any at all or they have children who are playing with them on the same card. Facial Recognition? ok. you got me lol (or do you?).

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 03:00 PM
dont think there was any word on multiple accounts either way yet

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 03:02 PM
dont think there was any word on multiple accounts either way yet

They have stated that they are trying to prevent it, but it's not really an easy task to achieve. The only thing they can do is keep the incentives of having more than one account down.

Eadwyn
05-23-2013, 03:05 PM
The problem is they can't really catch people. Can't do it through IP, because multiple people could be playing together. Can't do it through credit card because not only do I have more than one, but some backers don't have any at all or they have children who are playing with them on the same card. Facial Recognition? ok. you got me lol (or do you?).

They have mentioned that CCs will be required to be unique to each account. So if you have multiple people in the family that all want to play, they all have to use a different payment method.

Lochar
05-23-2013, 03:07 PM
I know there are several CCs that will generate you new CC numbers for use on the internet, basically throw away CC numbers. My Discover does.

Turtlewing
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
The problem is they can't really catch people. Can't do it through IP, because multiple people could be playing together. Can't do it through credit card because not only do I have more than one, but some backers don't have any at all or they have children who are playing with them on the same card. Facial Recognition? ok. you got me lol (or do you?).

Well the can't catch everyone, but you bragged about it on the internet...

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Well the can't catch everyone, but you bragged about it on the internet...

Lol. I'm not saying, "Haha crypto, I am going to exploit you and you can do nothing about it." I'm trying to say that I don't want to create a second account, but if it's going to get me an extra $336 of value, it's hard to not do. I'm bringing it up not to promote it, but to have something done about it before it becomes reality.

Lazybum
05-23-2013, 03:16 PM
currently only have a Grand king my self and will only add another king or 2 so i dont have to really worry about the drafts

ramseytheory
05-23-2013, 03:38 PM
I seem to remember seeing an official statement on the forums that multiple accounts were OK, but each account had to be associated with a different credit card number (presumably as an anti-botting measure). So two accounts are slightly inconvenient but doable.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 03:44 PM
I seem to remember seeing an official statement on the forums that multiple accounts were OK, but each account had to be associated with a different credit card number (presumably as an anti-botting measure). So two accounts are slightly inconvenient but doable.

This is the quote from OP_Kyle:

"Each account in HEX requires a unique credit card to make purchases (there will also be other payment options, but they are still being explored). We won’t be able to stop you from opening multiple accounts with different cc’s. But our desire is to make the best and most stable environment possible. The requirement for unique cc’s will help control potential abuses of our community and content. "


Basically they don't want multiboxing is what I took from this. In a card game it is soooo easy to multibox. We as a community really don't want multiboxing to happen, but promoting separate accounts through not stacking is like a gateway drug to exploiting multiboxing. If I had the solution I would tell you, but the honest truth is that I am not sure how to prevent making separate accounts except for taking away incentives that reward you for making them.

Genosaurer
05-23-2013, 04:42 PM
all PvE content can be done solo and PvP drafts require 8 people. Would be kinda annoying I would think to play 2 games at once in the draft. I could be wrong though. Also, can't you just send all the stuff from Collector to your main account? How much time would that take? Just do the draft on 2nd account and mail the rewards to the main account. Slight hassle but you won't lose anything and I don't think its really all that big of a problem. Its when 4 accounts of the same person queue up for a draft at once it becomes an issue.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 04:47 PM
all PvE content can be done solo and PvP drafts require 8 people. Would be kinda annoying I would think to play 2 games at once in the draft. I could be wrong though. Also, can't you just send all the stuff from Collector to your main account? How much time would that take? Just do the draft on 2nd account and mail the rewards to the main account. Slight hassle but you won't lose anything and I don't think its really all that big of a problem. Its when 4 accounts of the same person queue up for a draft at once it becomes an issue.

My problem is more with the pve side of it than the pvp side of it. I wouldn't want to multibox in pvp, but in pve it would be silly if the best guild in the game were 1 person lol. Actually the problem that I'm getting at is the fact that you can indeed draft on the collector tier and send it to your gk account. They are saying that they won't make the yearly draft and lifetime draft stack which doesn't really make sense. There is no benefit on keeping a yearly and a lifetime on one account anyway. They are nudging me to make 2 accounts to loophole around this in order to receive an extra $336 worth of drafts that merging will not get.

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 04:49 PM
I believe raids are targeted towards teams of 3 players, although they did say that you could try it with fewer. I could see people multiboxing raids in this game. Their biggest concern probably is someone playing multiple spots in the same tournament, though. Other than that, I agree with all of what you 2 just said.

Diesbudt
05-23-2013, 05:38 PM
That is what has me worried. They are encouraging me to create 2 accounts which I don't want to do lol. I'm a min/maxer at heart and think in this way. I don't doubt I'm alone though. It starts with making 2 accounts to get full benefits, and before you know it, you are raiding with yourself lol.

If you read the site, they are against multiple accounts, and will watch for such.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 05:49 PM
If you read the site, they are against multiple accounts, and will watch for such.

I know they are against it. I would like some information as how they plan to enforce it though. I made this post because I'm not sure if they understand what's going to happen with this game. Aside from putting tiers on separate accounts, which they are unknowingly promoting, multiboxing is the greater threat at hand. I don't see how they can stop it and would like some information on it. This has the potential to absolutely destroy pve.

How would you feel if the #1 guild in the game was just one person, while you and your guild are struggling to clear content. Do they have a mechanic that requires simultaneous input from each device? MMO's avoid a lot of the multiboxing issues because it's difficult to control multiple characters simultaneously, but there is nothing like that in tcg's.

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 05:51 PM
I actually don't understand this fear. How is someone multiboxing going to be that much more dangerous than a guild of three people? The decks are still decks that follow all the rules.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 05:53 PM
I actually don't understand this fear. How is someone multiboxing going to be that much more dangerous than a guild of three people? The decks are still decks that follow all the rules.

More of the issue is how are three people going to be more effective than one person?

Lochar
05-23-2013, 05:54 PM
I actually don't understand this fear. How is someone multiboxing going to be that much more dangerous than a guild of three people? The decks are still decks that follow all the rules.

Mainly in the idea that with multiple accounts, you won't buy as many boosters. You'll just free trade between all the accounts. Between that and getting multiple accounts each with a free year of drafts they start losing out on a lot of possible money.

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 05:56 PM
More of the issue is how are three people going to be more effective than one person?

But effective with what? This is a turn based game. Reflexes aren't a part of the equation. Is this a fear that one person with greater play skill can play three decks so much better than any group of three people with different minds who each have the opportunity to catch each others mistakes and each have the opportunity to spot openings in the opponent?


Mainly in the idea that with multiple accounts, you won't buy as many boosters. You'll just free trade between all the accounts. Between that and getting multiple accounts each with a free year of drafts they start losing out on a lot of possible money.

That's really only an issue if the other tiers sell out and prevent other people from signing up. It could happen, with Raid Leader the obvious candidate, but it's really not going to be anything near what happened with PP and GK. The limit of one year being the key to reducing that.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:05 PM
But effective with what? This is a turn based game. Reflexes aren't a part of the equation. Is this a fear that one person with greater play skill can play three decks so much better than any group of three people with different minds who each have the opportunity to catch each others mistakes and each have the opportunity to spot openings in the opponent?



MMO's are supposed to promote group interaction and several people trying to accomplish a common goal. The fact of the matter is that if it can be done with one person, then people will just do it with one person. An MMO where people are all solo'ing is not much of an MMO. So I do have concerns that I hope crypto can shed some light on.

Chance
05-23-2013, 06:05 PM
Deal with it when the time comes IMO, if i had to weigh the pros and cons of this I'd say that giving everyone free drafts is a perk that far outweighs the idea of multibox/multi account. That shit happens irregardless of bonuses, hell people multi box for disadvantages. People need to stop viewing things in rights/wrongs and absolutes

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:06 PM
irregardlesss

pls no

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:08 PM
Deal with it when the time comes IMO, if i had to weigh the pros and cons of this I'd say that giving everyone free drafts is a perk that far outweighs the idea of multibox/multi account. That shit happens irregardless of bonuses, hell people multi box for disadvantages. People need to stop viewing things in rights/wrongs and absolutes

Oh, I'm not complaining about the drafts as perks. I'm just saying that they announced that lifetime and weekly do not stack. That is easily circumvented by just having 2 accounts. Don't get me wrong, I am indeed happy that all the tiers got boosted.

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 06:08 PM
You know their gonna use the word irregardless of weather your say it aint a word or not.

jai151
05-23-2013, 06:12 PM
pls no

Really?

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:12 PM
Really?

rly.

Lochar
05-23-2013, 06:21 PM
rly.

Irregardlessly, it doesn't make any difference.

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 06:22 PM
Oh, I'm not complaining about the drafts as perks. I'm just saying that they announced that lifetime and weekly do not stack. That is easily circumvented by just having 2 accounts. Don't get me wrong, I am indeed happy that all the tiers got boosted.

Easily circumvented yes, but still an inconvenience. Capping at 4 for stacking was also easily circumvented, but I wouldn't be surprised that more than a few multi-stackers saw that as a hard line they should stick to.

And while yes, MMOs should promote more social play, I don't necessarily think they have to discourage single-play unless it's really affecting balance and honest tournament results and that kind of stuff.

Coming from a TCG persepective, people should be able to do what they want with their cards. Some people like drafting, some like constructed. Some like being competitive some like casual. Some like pauper and some like having the most expensive decks. And some people like playing with others, some want to go solo. Let them be if it's not really affecting anyone else. Add in more idea like the guild bank and stuff sure. Add more features to encourage others to join guilds. Guilds themselves need to create events and reasons why people should join them. I'm all for that. But if someone wants to go solo for whatever reason, that doesn't bother me much either.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:27 PM
Easily circumvented yes, but still an inconvenience. Capping at 4 for stacking was also easily circumvented, but I wouldn't be surprised that more than a few multi-stackers saw that as a hard line they should stick to.

And while yes, MMOs should promote more social play, I don't necessarily think they have to discourage single-play unless it's really affecting balance and honest tournament results and that kind of stuff.

Coming from a TCG persepective, people should be able to do what they want with their cards. Some people like drafting, some like constructed. Some like being competitive some like casual. Some like pauper and some like having the most expensive decks. And some people like playing with others, some want to go solo. Let them be if it's not really affecting anyone else. Add in more idea like the guild bank and stuff sure. Add more features to encourage others to join guilds. Guilds themselves need to create events and reasons why people should join them. I'm all for that. But if someone wants to go solo for whatever reason, that doesn't bother me much either.

Not much of an inconvenience for a 426 dollar value. Perhaps it is just me on the PVE side of things, but I believe that 3 people should be able to accomplish more than one person of equal skill. I have played both MMO's and TCG's my whole life and perhaps I have a different idea of how they should be combined, but I'm sure I can't be the only one with these concerns.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:30 PM
Not much of an inconvenience for a 426 dollar value. Perhaps it is just me on the PVE side of things, but I believe that 3 people should be able to accomplish more than one person of equal skill. I have played both MMO's and TCG's my whole life and perhaps I have a different idea of how they should be combined, but I'm sure I can't be the only one with these concerns.

You mean like with regard to one person multiboxing or just one person playing? Cause I'm pretty sure 3>1 in the PvE they have set up.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:33 PM
You mean like with regard to one person multiboxing or just one person playing? Cause I'm pretty sure 3>1 in the PvE they have set up.

one person multiboxing is going to be equivalent to 3 independent people unless there is some twist to your typical tcg. Just doesn't seem right to me, but very difficult to prevent.

IndigoShade
05-23-2013, 06:35 PM
I just don't see that being an issue that breaks the game, doing it in tournaments on the other hand could be problematic.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:37 PM
one person multiboxing is going to be equivalent to 3 independent people unless there is some twist to your typical tcg. Just doesn't seem right to me, but very difficult to prevent.

In any turn based game, one person playing multiples will always be equivalent to multiple individuals. I never really understood the people who did this (like the 40boxers in wow. Really?) but I don't think it affects gameplay all that much except in drafting or entering tournaments..

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 06:38 PM
Not much of an inconvenience for a 426 dollar value. Perhaps it is just me on the PVE side of things, but I believe that 3 people should be able to accomplish more than one person of equal skill. I have played both MMO's and TCG's my whole life and perhaps I have a different idea of how they should be combined, but I'm sure I can't be the only one with these concerns.

I'm just trying to clear things up. I thought the fear was that a single-multiboxer could do better than three individuals and will become the #1 guild. So it's actually that they can be equal to three people and possibly become number 1, because they have just as good a chance as multiple people if they have equal playskill. And that's wrong because the three people should always be better than the one.

Edit: Other people beat me to it. I too don't really see it being that much of an issue that affects other people all that much, other than tournaments and things of that nature.

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:46 PM
I'm just trying to clear things up. I thought the fear was that a single-multiboxer could do better than three individuals and will become the #1 guild. So it's actually that they can be equal to three people and possibly become number 1, because they have an equal chance as multiple people if they have equal playskill. And that's wrong because the three people should always be better than the one.

Edit: Other people beat me to it. I too don't really see it being that much of an issue that affects other people all that much, other than tournaments and things of that nature.

There are a few things that go along with multiboxing. This person is more than likely going to be further along than 3 independent players. A single person has to only worry about him/herself in regards to scheduling. A single person who multiboxes a raid gets all the loot from that encounter. PvE games almost always have an aspect of PvP in them. Take for instance, the one multiboxer becomes a raid boss, that has all the gear, and becomes virtually unbeatable. It takes away some fairness from people who follow the rules and don't exploit. People tend to quit when they are not on fair playing ground. Obviously Crypto is aware of some of the implications of multiboxing or they wouldn't be thinking about the one credit card per account method. PvE is very dependent on having equal opportunity imo.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 06:52 PM
There are a few things that go along with multiboxing. This person is more than likely going to be further along than 3 independent players. A single person has to only worry about him/herself in regards to scheduling. A single person who multiboxes a raid gets all the loot from that encounter. PvE games almost always have an aspect of PvP in them. Take for instance, the one multiboxer becomes a raid boss, that has all the gear, and becomes virtually unbeatable. It takes away some fairness from people who follow the rules and don't exploit. People tend to quit when they are not on fair playing ground. Obviously Crypto is aware of some of the implications of multiboxing or they wouldn't be thinking about the one credit card per account method. PvE is very dependent on having equal opportunity imo.

Loot is individual in this game, so everyone advances. Also, to be competitive the multiboxer has to continue to improve all of his accounts, meaning he has to get all of them the right gear whereas the others only have to level one acc. I don't know how fast leveling PvE will be but I doubt you can multibox raids from lv1

Brumby66
05-23-2013, 06:57 PM
Loot is individual in this game, so everyone advances. Also, to be competitive the multiboxer has to continue to improve all of his accounts, meaning he has to get all of them the right gear whereas the others only have to level one acc. I don't know how fast leveling PvE will be but I doubt you can multibox raids from lv1

I really hope that they can make the raids incredibly difficult to that point. I love when encounters go unbeaten for months. I'm not sure AI in a TCG can play to that degree though. In MMO's, the mechanics are usually what takes the time to master. I would be ecstatic if the AI can somehow capture that effect.

Genocidal
05-23-2013, 08:07 PM
Honestly, they shouldn't have allowed stacking of limited tiers in the first place. You've got people on this forum who are bragging about having 2-4x Pro Players/Grand Kings which makes them less likely to spend money in the future and keeps those tiers out of the hands of other players who would be putting money into the game (let's be honest, 1 draft a week won't be enough for most players, and they'll be paying for extras).

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 08:10 PM
While definitely true that it was probably a mistake, it's nice that they've kept their word as a demonstration that they mean what they say. Once it was out of the bag, and they knew they weren't going to go back on what they said, they've done a good job considering the circumstances.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 08:20 PM
While definitely true that it was probably a mistake, it's nice that they've kept their word as a demonstration that they mean what they say. Once it was out of the bag, and they knew they weren't going to go back on what they said, they've done a good job considering the circumstances.

I agree, they did good sticking to their word, I would have preferred no stacking, and when I first came to the forums I was seriously put off by people with 4x blah 2x blah blah blah as signatures. Those however are the times in which we live, so I got over it.

Talreth
05-23-2013, 08:30 PM
I agree, they did good sticking to their word, I would have preferred no stacking, and when I first came to the forums I was seriously put off by people with 4x blah 2x blah blah blah as signatures. Those however are the times in which we live, so I got over it.

You even joined in!

caffn8d
05-23-2013, 08:30 PM
I consider all the tiers to be quite generous on their own. As such, I felt like by taking multiple limited ones I would be taking advantage of CZE AND blocking their generosity to someone else by taking the slot. But ultimately that's all on me and my own conscience. YMMV.

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 09:09 PM
You even joined in!

I did, but I try not to shove it in people's faces constantly, just when the discussion demands face shoving.

Boogaloo
05-23-2013, 09:43 PM
I honestly don't mind multiboxing in PVE - if someone wants to control that many characters/accounts, more power to them as far as I'm concerned. I'm mostly just entertained when I read crazy stories about people doing that in other MMOs, like this:

One WoW player controls 36 characters simultaneously

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/10/12/one-wow-player-controls-36-characters-simultaneously/

Getting multiple accounts of yours into something like a draft tournament would perhaps be a bit more iffy, but having randomized, blind entries into tournaments would somewhat eliminate that possibility (it's not like that scenario will ever be made completely impossible - players will always think of some way to get around those kinds of safeguards).

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 09:50 PM
I honestly don't mind multiboxing in PVE - if someone wants to control that many characters/accounts, more power to them as far as I'm concerned. I'm mostly just entertained when I read crazy stories about people doing that in other MMOs, like this:

One WoW player controls 36 characters simultaneously

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/10/12/one-wow-player-controls-36-characters-simultaneously/

Getting multiple accounts of yours into something like a draft tournament would perhaps be a bit more iffy, but having randomized, blind entries into tournaments would somewhat eliminate that possibility (it's not like that scenario will ever be made completely impossible - players will always think of some way to get around those kinds of safeguards).

While I've said I could possibly see a problem with tournaments... I lied. I actually don't really see a problem. What can someone actually do? They pay two entries and draft two times, and have to build two decks in the time you're supposed to build one deck. Then from that point the matches are one on one. It's not like he can take both draft pools and mix them together to make two decks he shouldn't be able to make. It sounds like being in the same draft with yourself is actually detrimental, and you paid twice the cost besides.

Okay, this just hit me as I typed this. Play would slow down, and I can see how that could be considered harmful. Just because there's a player clock doesn't mean it's a good thing if a player is playing slowly but still within the clock limits. So I can see a time cost, but no unfair advantage. (And if people can enter multiple drafts at a time on the same account... then I guess that's not really a negative for multi-boxing because it's pretty much the same either way.)

And 36 characters? Wow. That's impressive. And insane.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 09:57 PM
Well, you would have foreknowledge of what your opponent is playing prior to your match if you previously played him.

You have knowledge of the cards coming to you before you should and can draft with that knowledge in mind.

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 10:01 PM
Double post.

ForgedSol
05-23-2013, 10:02 PM
There you go. That answers that. If MTGO didn't have such a bad UI and trading system, I'd have more drafting experience and hopefully would have been able to figure that out on my own. (I tried getting online with Magic two separate times. I just couldn't do it.)

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 10:05 PM
Oh, and you have better knowledge of which player took what card, depending on how much space is between you...and you.