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DanTheMeek
05-23-2013, 09:20 PM
So I've seen a few posts on here lately that make it sound like it was finally officially stated what the rarity distribution was... yet it was never posted in my old post nor have I been able to find it with any searches so I'm not sure if this was actually revealed or just people are making assumptions. If I did know how many of the initial 350 cards would be commons, uncommons, rares, and legendanaries, it would make it easier to at the very least speculate on the answer to this question of mine, but as it stands I've got very little go on.

The question is thus: How much should it realistically cost a new player to get access to a single competitive pvp deck?

As a backer whose invested 120 dollars into this game for King tier, I'm not particularly concerned about being unable to field a competitive pvp deck (though who knows, if the common vs rare/legendary ratio is bad enough, maybe even my investment won't be enough to get the playsets of rare and legendaries the top decks will require... I really hope those ratios aren't obnoxious as they seem to have been in WoWtcg from what others on the forum have quoted) but I AM very concerned about new players not being willing to jump into pvp because the cost barrier to actually field a truly competitive top tier deck is simply too high.

Let me be clear now, as some one whose lived a relatively long life and probably more of it playing in tournaments then some people on this forum have been alive, I'm well aware that real life card games have a huge cost investment, its always been that way, and that there are many people who believe that if a newbie who walks into the card shop isn't willing to invest huge sums of money, they shouldn't complain later when they are getting rolled in tournaments not for a lack of skill but for a lack of the key cards needed to make their deck as successful as it could be.

That said, that does not mean that is a good thing, nor that just because its been that way that it should remain that way. Part of what has me so excited about hex, aside from the huge emphasis on providing a deep, lengthy, and meaningful PvE experience, is the propose price point of only 2 dollars for 15 card packs, and even less for backers, vip, and potentially far more sales/deals. This is flat out fantastic, a huge step in the right direction that few card game companies (virtual or other wise) are unwilling to make for fear of losing money from their regulars who would have happily paid 4 dollars per pack. Hopefully this lower price point will result in more players joining who wouldn't have other wise at the traditional price point, offsetting this lower cost and making a better overall community in the process with the potential to last longer.

But ultimately, with this first set being so large, and rares potentially being so numerous that getting playsets of rares that are essential for top tier decks could be near impossible outside of buying them off the auction house at inflated prices or buying hundreds of packs, I could still see there being a large cost barrier to entry for new players, enough so that a large group of would be spenders may walk away with out spending a dime, or after only spending 10 dollars or whatever they can afford, because getting into the game seriously is just too intimidating to them.

The good news is that unlike some virtual card games, the auction house makes getting a specific set of cards a lot more feasible, and while most people would probably want to try out different decks, back when I was less well off I know I for one would have been very willing to pay say 10-30 bucks to have a single top tier deck I used all the time and then continue to invest 10-30 as new sets gave new, superior, or just interesting options to change said specific deck. Conversely, if a card game looked like I could invest 60 bucks in it and not even necessarily come away with everything I needed to truly compete, I was going to stay strictly free to play.

So TLDR: Can I get an official response on what the intended cost to create a full fledged competitive deck will be on launch and for non cryptozoic employees, what do you feel is a reasonable minimum cost a player should expect to have to play to be competitive?

Gwaer
05-23-2013, 09:24 PM
To my knowledge up to this point it has all been speculation about the exact distribution.

Hadin
05-23-2013, 09:25 PM
Personally I don't think there is any way for them to realistically provide data to you beyond an actual breakdown of how many cards exist in each rarity. There are many factors that will play into how much it costs to build a competitive deck. This will even include what percentage of the game's starting population is kickstarters (because a kickstarter's pack, while worth $2 from the in-game shop, will be worth less than that). If the flood happens early on as expected, then building a deck could be reasonably affordable. The first week a deck could be drastically more affordable then week 2, after the powerhouses start to show themselves.

Ebynfel
05-23-2013, 09:26 PM
basing on outside factors, I think that one way or another, gettinng far over 100 for competition shouldn't be too likely. looking at pricing being half of MTGO, I could see a couple of cards(depending on future spoils) hitting a 15 dollar price point in the secondary market. Here's to hoping the more economically priced packs translates into more economically priced rares/legendaries for the most part here compared to other games like Magic.

That being said, 150ish for a competitive deck does not seem out of the realm of possibility for me, though I'd prefer to come away with truly top tier decks for under a hundred here, I don't know if it will be feasible, though I am hopeful you will be able to compete with top tier lists for significantly cheaper.

For instance, i built my Modern Soul Sisters deck on MtGO for about 55 tix a few weeks ago. From scratch. It is a pretty competitive tier 1.5 deck that has game against all of the major decks in the meta. It's not too shabby, and costs about 1/20th the price of Modern decks such as Jund.

I expect to see similar decks here for under the 60 mark

DanTheMeek
05-23-2013, 09:37 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not looking for an exact number from Cryptozoic, more of just a rough estimate as to what they're personal goal, if this is even something they've taken into consideration, is. I guess, when I'm making a pitch for this game to friends or people I meet, I'd like to be able to say "and they're aiming to have things priced so you can realistically get a competitive deck with playsets of all the key cards for around 50 dollars" to maybe lure in some of my friends who didn't' join me in other card games I played due to cost barriers.

I appreciate all the comments so far though!

Pezzle
05-23-2013, 09:38 PM
The question cannot be accurately answered. However, consider the following. There will be millions of cards among five to six thousand players potentially available in the beta. What will the cost be? It will never be lower, should the game succeed. A single set, low population and high card saturation. Make your own decision!

I do not see how Cryptozoic could give you an answer.

Ebynfel
05-23-2013, 09:39 PM
NP Dan. If they kickstart, all those boosters you get is a very healthy way to help ensure an economical beginning. If nothing else, the sheer volume of boosters should ensure some trading power if they're not fans of drafting on the cheap. With a 350 card set, even the lower tiers aren't too shabby value wise.

elsimer
05-23-2013, 09:48 PM
I thought I saw a comment from Cory at some point that mentioned that they intend for even their starter decks to be somewhat competitive. Between that and how much thought is being put into the draft (which could lower the learning curve to PvP), this could have a low cost barrier.

Erebus
05-23-2013, 09:49 PM
A) The cost of boosters is 1/3 of what it is IRL
B) We have a global trade community vice a local one (granted physical TCGs are getting with third party websites selling singles)
C) Cryptozoic has gone out of their way to make cards playable at all levels before. Instead of 100% rare or Legendaries, most decks will be about 50% to 75% Rare/Legendaries (hopefully)

So I recommend just find out what a mid tier magic or wow competitive deck cost and divide that by about 3.

I would say that if you are focused, a mid level competitive deck will be around 40 dollars to make, and even less if you're particularly clever deck-builder and use less popular rares and legendaries.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 10:00 PM
I think that Cryptozoic will let market conditions dictate deck costs. What price can the market bear? If I had to take a stab at it I wouldn't be able to come any closer than my other posters above, but I think that Crypto specifically will let the market make that choice for us. Crypto is in the business to sell boosters. We control the game from there...well, within the framework of economics, sociology, etc. of course.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 10:12 PM
I would put the entry cost of pvp at $7 a week. Draft format is a gateway and after a few drafts if you want to go constructed put in some extra dollars and transform your collection.

I may have missed something though the consensus here seems to be at rare/legendary are simply superior cards rather than just less common. Is this archetype even confirmed?

Erebus
05-23-2013, 10:30 PM
I would say that 90% of the time Legendaries are superior.

But it mostly comes that they have extremely unique abilities, where commons and uncommons tend to have more shard specific abilities.

Rare/Legendaries tend to have a higher cost, but sometimes they allow you to get an ability or set of stats at much lower cost then the equivalent common or uncommon (though usually with some sort of trade-off).

These assumptions are based off spoiled card and the model used by Cryptozoic in WoWTCG.

funktion
05-23-2013, 10:49 PM
They need to let the markets dictate the price of cards. With that set, the price of cards from set one is literally gonna be in the gutter even for the most sought after chase cards.

Set redemptions are one of the largest factors in keeping prices up on MTGO. With a lack of set redemptions you will see card prices peak within the first 2 months of a set launch and then decline after that. The only exception being for sleeper cards.

Additionally packs being such a low price will drag down the price of cards. It's a downward spiral from there, as single prices drop, the impetus to open a pack for a chase card also drops.

Honestly TCG's will always have a barrier to entry, which can in some cases keep things interesting. Leads to building on a budget type fun etc. I expect the barrier to entry in Hex to be staggeringly low, which makes me a little skeptical about the game's long term viability.

"Going infinite" should be fairly easy, coming out positive is going to be pretty difficult.
Making the finals in a daily constructed que in MTGO nets you at least $20 and is fairly easy to do in some formats. I've managed to make a profit while also enjoying my hobby for some seasons and if you're decent it's very easy to make your deck pay for itself.

With Hex, you'll be lucky if you make the same finals of the same tournament and come out with anything close to $10.

If you're talking on a strictly EV level, you're better off playing MTGO.

Parallax
05-24-2013, 08:12 AM
If they let people craft tokens for new booster packs out of crafting materials gained from trashing old cards, people will happily trash them them for crafting materials to convert large quantities of old cards into a smaller quantity of cards from a new set.

Would prevent prices from bottoming out, I think.

neonovas
05-24-2013, 08:55 AM
I had actually just kinda assumed they'd have some sort of ELO ranking system for random match ups so entry PvP players would get matched with other entry pvp players. For tournaments I can see them going either way, maybe have some that are completely random and others that are rank based with the higher ranks having slightly better rewards.

This is what I would like to see, people can compete with others on their level of a combination skill/deck basically eliminating any cost entry barrier to playing pvp (other than just buying enough cards to make a constructed deck or any fees) and lessening the random factor of being matched vs someone high above/below you so each match is fun/challenging.

MrCwis
05-24-2013, 09:10 AM
i would love to see pauper tournament or something similar for "newer" players to play in to win some packs, obviously anyone could play in these tournaments, but being only commons, and possible uncommons a "tier 1" deck so be fairly cheap and a good way to earn some packs while learning how abilities interact with each other.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:15 AM
With matchmaker systems, your pauper-level decks will (generally) go against other players who have similar value decks. It shouldn't be a problem except when you go against players who either just bought a huge amount of cards or really inconsistent players (e.g. players who either make incorrect plays or have a badly distributed mana curve).

Of course, this assumes a healthy player population.

ramseytheory
05-24-2013, 09:29 AM
We have player-defined leagues confirmed as something that will be added post-launch, and I'd be really surprised if that didn't end up creating a pauper format.

MrCwis
05-24-2013, 09:31 AM
We have player-defined leagues confirmed as something that will be added post-launch, and I'd be really surprised if that didn't end up creating a pauper format.

I hadn't read this, so that would be awesome. Player made leagues will probably end up with some interesting deck ideas.

EDH anyone?

Daer
05-24-2013, 09:40 AM
I hadn't read this, so that would be awesome. Player made leagues will probably end up with some interesting deck ideas.

EDH anyone?

Cory mentioned it in one of the updates:


Leagues! Imagine an interface that allows you to custom craft your very own league. Pick and choose all the options of your league, what format, how long it will run, who can play in it, what the prizes will be. This simple and intuitive tool will allow you completely customize the league.

Talreth
05-24-2013, 09:54 AM
If they let people craft tokens for new booster packs out of crafting materials gained from trashing old cards, people will happily trash them them for crafting materials to convert large quantities of old cards into a smaller quantity of cards from a new set.

Would prevent prices from bottoming out, I think.

Very highly doubt crafting system will be used for PvP cards.

Lidralyn
05-24-2013, 10:03 AM
Very highly doubt crafting system will be used for PvP cards.

I am about positive you will not be able to create PvP with the crafting system....but being able to break down PvP would help the economy I believe...

Sonicrain
05-24-2013, 10:05 AM
INB4 edwin van cleef part 2

funktion
05-24-2013, 12:15 PM
With matchmaker systems, your pauper-level decks will (generally) go against other players who have similar value decks. It shouldn't be a problem except when you go against players who either just bought a huge amount of cards or really inconsistent players (e.g. players who either make incorrect plays or have a badly distributed mana curve).

What if I normally play very efficient decks, but one day I decide that I want to play a deck that I consider fun but I know is extremely weak. It's going to pair me against someone who will smash my face. Matchmaking systems don't belong in a tcg environment.

When you enter a PVP tournament it's going to do it's random pairings in round one, once the swiss rounds start going you're more and more likely to be paired against equally skilled players. I encourage new players to continue playing their swiss rounds even if they are out of contention for prizes.

papalorax
05-24-2013, 12:22 PM
Assuming drafting is fun and popular...

How much for a deck? I think the answer is - when do you want it? First week? A lot...second month? much less.

Same thing when Set 2 comes out.

Fireblast
05-24-2013, 02:01 PM
Top tier decks is what he wants, so later once the meta has stabilized.

~

neonovas
05-24-2013, 02:33 PM
What if I normally play very efficient decks, but one day I decide that I want to play a deck that I consider fun but I know is extremely weak. It's going to pair me against someone who will smash my face. Matchmaking systems don't belong in a tcg environment.

Hopefully if they do a ranking system you can choose to either play ranked or unranked matches and tournaments.

Ebynfel
05-24-2013, 03:02 PM
What if I normally play very efficient decks, but one day I decide that I want to play a deck that I consider fun but I know is extremely weak. It's going to pair me against someone who will smash my face. Matchmaking systems don't belong in a tcg environment.

When you enter a PVP tournament it's going to do it's random pairings in round one, once the swiss rounds start going you're more and more likely to be paired against equally skilled players. I encourage new players to continue playing their swiss rounds even if they are out of contention for prizes.

I am pretty sure a ranked or rating system should incorporate general skill level rather than card strength, because a good player with a sub par deck should have an advantage against a really poor player with a decent deck. And honestly, if there is a ranking system outside of tournament, i would be pretty shocked. Tourney placement is where I could see ranking mattering,as you wouldn't take a fun cheese deck into a serious constructed tournament when your ranking is high enough for that to dent it. With the possibility of World Titles, cash tourneys, etc, I see a ranking system being used as a High end tournament invite requirement of some sort, so that certain levels of players see play in quality tournaments at varying levels, but are matched against people who have, after time, a similar skill level.

It doesnt have to invite for purely the highest. If they make a special tourney for tier 2 players, we'll call them for argument's sake, then everyone i nthat tier 2 bracket will be similarly skilled, and the tournament will still be fun to watch.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 05:13 PM
What if I normally play very efficient decks, but one day I decide that I want to play a deck that I consider fun but I know is extremely weak. It's going to pair me against someone who will smash my face. Matchmaking systems don't belong in a tcg environment.

When you enter a PVP tournament it's going to do it's random pairings in round one, once the swiss rounds start going you're more and more likely to be paired against equally skilled players. I encourage new players to continue playing their swiss rounds even if they are out of contention for prizes.

Play your weak deck in an unranked environment. Problem solved. Ranked isn't the ONLY method of getting a match.

As for the drafts/constructed, those most likely will NOT be completely random, but might have tiers as the population grows. Think of the SC2 or League of Legends ladders.

Deathfog
05-24-2013, 07:23 PM
In general I'm assume no more than half the price of making a similar deck in MTG, due to packs and drafts being no more than 50% of the price.

Hock
05-24-2013, 08:51 PM
I think I remember hearing/reading, though I can't remember where at the moment, that there would be a PvE questline that the rewards would be PvP based. and at the end of the questline you'd be rewarded with an entry into a a draft tournament, this could potentially lower the barrier to entry.

taveren
05-24-2013, 10:31 PM
couldn't you also buy pvp cards on the ah with gold earned from the game thus saveing real money

Hock
05-25-2013, 12:17 AM
couldn't you also buy pvp cards on the ah with gold earned from the game thus saveing real money

No. Booster packs can only be purchased by Platinum, which is the in game currency you purchase with real money or win in tournaments.

The Gold you get in PvE can't be used to purchase boosters.

It is possible that gold can be used in the Auction House to buy PvE cards, CZE haven't given enough specifics to say wheteher that will be possible or not, but I suspect not.

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 01:06 AM
No. Booster packs can only be purchased by Platinum, which is the in game currency you purchase with real money or win in tournaments.

The Gold you get in PvE can't be used to purchase boosters.

It is possible that gold can be used in the Auction House to buy PvE cards, CZE haven't given enough specifics to say wheteher that will be possible or not, but I suspect not.

You're interpreting and I think wrongly.

Technically there are Gold AH and Plat AH. Since it's player that supply the AH we don't know what will be in it and for how much of which currrency...

Everything but mercenaries is tradeable

~

MasterPlan
05-25-2013, 01:56 AM
You're interpreting and I think wrongly.

Technically there are Gold AH and Plat AH. Since it's player that supply the AH we don't know what will be in it and for how much of which currrency...

Everything but mercenaries is tradeable

~
I thought lotus garden was not tradeable as well, if it is well that is interesting. But I can not seem to recall where I read it or if I was just having hallucinations brought on by spending too much money on HEX.

Arbiter
05-25-2013, 03:27 AM
No. Booster packs can only be purchased by Platinum, which is the in game currency you purchase with real money or win in tournaments.

The Gold you get in PvE can't be used to purchase boosters.

It is possible that gold can be used in the Auction House to buy PvE cards, CZE haven't given enough specifics to say wheteher that will be possible or not, but I suspect not.

Anything may be put up by any player on the gold AH. So you likely will be able to get commons for gold. You may even get other stuff if players put it there, I would expect the exchange rate to be high though.

Hock
05-25-2013, 03:29 AM
You're interpreting and I think wrongly.

Technically there are Gold AH and Plat AH. Since it's player that supply the AH we don't know what will be in it and for how much of which currrency...

Everything but mercenaries is tradeable

~

I'm certainly speculating. I don't how the auction houses are going to work. I just wouldn't be surprised if CZE doesn't allow PvP usable cards in the gold auction house, if which auction house is used for an item is based not on the sellers preference but the type of item itself.

Of course this is just a guess at this point and they could go another way entirely. There is still much that is unknown.

Arbiter
05-25-2013, 03:35 AM
I'm certainly speculating. I don't how the auction houses are going to work. I just wouldn't be surprised if CZE doesn't allow PvP usable cards in the gold auction house, if which auction house is used for an item is based not on the sellers preference but the type of item itself.

Of course this is just a guess at this point and they could go another way entirely. There is still much that is unknown.

They have stated they would. They mentioned it was likely that people would put PVP commons on the gold AH. In fact you'll likely see any PVP card that wouldn't sell for real money (read not viable in tourney decks) in the gold AH.

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 04:34 AM
The stance of CZE is very clear, they provide :

- Boosters ($2 a piece)
- PvE Content (free)
- Lobby Rooms to play (free)
- Tournament Organization (entry fees to cover prize support)
- AH (both Gold & Plat) and chat rooms to trade (free)

That's it, then it's the players who do the economy and the metagame etc...

~

swigmonkey
05-25-2013, 06:40 AM
Yeah, I don't understand what people don't understand.

It is a merge of two game types, one part is requiring a cost. The company has the previous experience to be a success on the TCG side, which I think is the biggest reason it is getting the support, I know it is the reason why I offered support. The MMO side seems to be a nice little side game that maybe is better than initially perceived by many.

The cost barrier is normal for a TCG. It is a lot less than a physical game or even MTGO. I always wish MTGO went a pure digital route and charged half the price.

neonovas
05-25-2013, 06:49 AM
As for the drafts/constructed, those most likely will NOT be completely random, but might have tiers as the population grows. Think of the SC2 or League of Legends ladders.

That was exactly how i was imagining it. They'd have a ladder/ranking system but you'd only gain rank playing that mode, could also play non-ranked matches where you could practice, mess around with a fun deck, play with friends whose rank isnt near yours, etc. They also mentioned marathon tournies where each match gave you rank points over time for that tournament, so they will at least have some type of rank system implemented even if its temporary. Then you also had custom games where you could set up your own rules to play vs friends.

Anssi
05-25-2013, 09:58 AM
Btw it is BS "market defines the prices, not CZE". If they create strong legendaries that are 4-ofs in every deck obviously those cards will be very scarce and rise in price. I'll use mtg example:

Wotc creates a very powerful mythic (I guess Jace is the most blatant example). Wotc might not set the exact price (let's say $100), but they definitely know this card will be extremely expensive.

If the 4-ofs are rares instead of mythics/legendaries, there is much greater supply (prob. 2-4x more), which tends to drop the price by a lot. (mtg/wow) Best rares only cost ~25% of what best mythics cost.

Blah blah blah, players don't "have" to buy it. But what if they want to play with it? What other option is there except to buy it as an expensive single? Cracking packs is even more expensive.

funktion
05-25-2013, 06:03 PM
That was exactly how i was imagining it. They'd have a ladder/ranking system but you'd only gain rank playing that mode, could also play non-ranked matches where you could practice, mess around with a fun deck, play with friends whose rank isnt near yours, etc. They also mentioned marathon tournies where each match gave you rank points over time for that tournament, so they will at least have some type of rank system implemented even if its temporary. Then you also had custom games where you could set up your own rules to play vs friends.

Drafts will not have leagues or tiers. There will be different types of ques where they have more top-heavy prize support. Since those are higher EV for extremely good players, that's where they will flock. However, having a rated matchmaking system for constructed or sealed tournament play is a TERRIBLE idea.

I don't think you understand how swiss pairings in multi-round tournaments work. I suggest you learn a bit more before making wild assumptions which would actually be harmful to the game.

Kietay
05-25-2013, 10:09 PM
Why would matchmaking for constructed or sealed be bad? Im pretty sure they will have matchmaking.

funktion
05-25-2013, 10:42 PM
Having matchmaking for either punishes good players. Swiss rounds are already in place to let the best players climb to the top for each tournament. Swiss makes sure people with similar results are placed against one another as the tournament progresses.

With pre-emptive matchmaking as you seem to suggest, it actually encourages MAKING A NEW ACCOUNT every time you join a tournament. Pause for a second before responding if you don't see why. If you still don't see why, I'll explain. Matchmaking is ok when literally nothing is on the line or when there is a reward for "season leaders" but outside of that... please god no.

MasterPlan
05-26-2013, 03:05 AM
Having matchmaking for either punishes good players. Swiss rounds are already in place to let the best players climb to the top for each tournament. Swiss makes sure people with similar results are placed against one another as the tournament progresses.

With pre-emptive matchmaking as you seem to suggest, it actually encourages MAKING A NEW ACCOUNT every time you join a tournament. Pause for a second before responding if you don't see why. If you still don't see why, I'll explain. Matchmaking is ok when literally nothing is on the line or when there is a reward for "season leaders" but outside of that... please god no.
^ This