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Malicus
05-24-2013, 12:06 AM
So I have been seeing these things come up in various discussions and it had me thinking of the route I would take so will all the multi pledgers out there be going multiple accounts or just stacking it all up.

nicosharp
05-24-2013, 12:16 AM
So I have been seeing these things come up in various discussions and it had me thinking of the route I would take so will all the multi pledgers out there be going multiple accounts or just stacking it all up.

Depends on who you ask.

Hadin
05-24-2013, 12:28 AM
I'll be creating two accounts, but the second is partly to multi-box raids, and partly so my girlfriend can play. She is quite fascinated by giant bunny armies, and used to want to learn how to play magic as well.

Daer
05-24-2013, 01:10 AM
Merging them all into 1 account.

Merir
05-24-2013, 01:36 AM
No, because I could barely afford one Pro tier pledge.

4acrossisemu
05-24-2013, 02:08 AM
wait have they said they will allow merging? - on the kickstarter when you pledge for 2/3 tiers are you using the same accounts?

Merir
05-24-2013, 02:12 AM
wait have they said they will allow merging? - on the kickstarter when you pledge for 2/3 tiers are you using the same accounts?

This should explain it:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23603&highlight=merging+accounts

Hadin
05-24-2013, 02:12 AM
wait have they said they will allow merging? - on the kickstarter when you pledge for 2/3 tiers are you using the same accounts?

People are able to pledge with multiple kickstarter accounts. From what I've heard after the kickstarter ends they figure out what you pledged, and consolidate it however you want it done. I've never done this before but CZE said they will combine multiple pledges for you (up to 4)

4acrossisemu
05-24-2013, 02:27 AM
thanks.

DisOrd3r
05-24-2013, 02:39 AM
I will probably merge mine, but we will see :)
I guess that the merge is a one-time only and will have a time-limit on it so :)

katkillad
05-24-2013, 03:07 AM
Mods pls. Why don't we have a report button?

Storm_Fireblade
05-24-2013, 03:12 AM
I will definitively merge my tiers. I didn't pledge multiple times to enter drafts, dungeons or anything else with multiple accounts - I did so because merging was confirmed and I saw it as an opportunity to support this game the most I can, while still getting rewards that support my own preferences. As someone who pledged $750 and really donated the maximum he can afford right now (Would love to donate more), without multiple pledges $250 of those would have never been donated because the tiers were limited to $500 and $1.000.

So although it created a lot of issues, I am very thankful to CZE that they did and still do listen to the community that much.

nicosharp
05-24-2013, 08:42 AM
I don't see the point in account merging, as the community loses an account that has access to the rare and unique kickstarter mercenaries..

Whether or not these mercenaries are tradeable, and whether or not spectral lotus farm is tradeable / stackable are the only two things I will consider before merging a GK with a K account. It has already been stated that the mercenaries will not stack.

Daer
05-24-2013, 08:43 AM
Mercenaries aren't tradeable, Spectral Lotus Farms are.

nicosharp
05-24-2013, 08:49 AM
Mercenaries aren't tradeable, Spectral Lotus Farms are.

Then there is way more value in selling the second account, or giving it to a friend after gutting it. Merging reduces the value of your investment.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 08:49 AM
Anybody who has GK/Pro AND another $250 tier will lose 420 dollars worth of value by merging them. Unless its changed in some way, most people in this boat will separate their accounts.

Fireblast
05-24-2013, 08:54 AM
Anybody who has GK/Pro AND another $250 tier will lose 420 dollars worth of value by merging them. Unless its changed in some way, most people in this boat will separate their accounts.

Where are those lost $420?

I'm going to have DL + 2PP on an account, and collector on a 2nd (i'll pick the cards and give it to friend so he can draft and get hooked up)

~

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 08:57 AM
Where are those lost $420?

I'm going to have DL + 2PP on an account, and collector on a 2nd (i'll pick the cards and give it to friend so he can draft and get hooked up)

~

They are with draft for a year and lifetime not stacking, and the 15 set 2 packs. Draft for a year= 336, 15 packs= 90. You'll avoid it by separating collectors.

Daer
05-24-2013, 08:58 AM
Set 2 Packs stack

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 08:59 AM
Set 2 Packs stack

Ah. So still a $336 loss. Still substantial.

MrCwis
05-24-2013, 09:02 AM
I don't see the point in account merging, as the community loses an account that has access to the rare and unique kickstarter mercenaries..

Whether or not these mercenaries are tradeable, and whether or not spectral lotus farm is tradeable / stackable are the only two things I will consider before merging a GK with a K account. It has already been stated that the mercenaries will not stack.

This is why I'll be having two accounts, I'll trade everything to my main account and then if a friend who hasn't backed wants in I'll either give them the account so they can have the Mercs or lend it out to them to try before they get there own account. Maybe keep a cheap PVE deck on it so that people who don't want to play on there own can pick it up and play for a bit with out any commitment

KeplerVerge
05-24-2013, 09:03 AM
Merging does destroy considerable value in exchange for convenience. However, if you plan to be a competitive player then you'll be wanting all the drafts on 1 account (since wins can add tournament qualifier points). So it depends on your priorities.

I plan to have both merged and multiple accounts

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:05 AM
I personally plan on having two accounts, mostly for convenience. (I can browse the auction house on one account while in a dungeon or queue.)

I can trade everything from my second pledge (except the 3 drafts) over to my main.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 09:05 AM
Merging does destroy considerable value in exchange for convenience. However, if you plan to be a competitive player then you'll be wanting all the drafts on 1 account (since wins can add tournament qualifier points). So it depends on your priorities.

I plan to have both merged and multiple accounts

Oh, thanks for that. I picked up multiple tiers with the intention of merging them, but as time passed it was hard to find a reason to do so. This gives me more to consider.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:08 AM
Oh, thanks for that. I picked up multiple tiers with the intention of merging them, but as time passed it was hard to find a reason to do so. This gives me more to consider.

If you have 2 draft for life tiers then definitely merge them. If you have any of the other 250 tiers then do not. There is no benefit to merging the other 250's, only significant loss.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:10 AM
Too bad you can't split a GK into two accounts to take advantage of the 1 year draft perk. :rolleyes:

Daer
05-24-2013, 09:12 AM
I personally plan on having two accounts, mostly for convenience. (I can browse the auction house on one account while in a dungeon or queue.)

I can trade everything from my second pledge (except the 3 drafts) over to my main.

You could just merge your accounts and make a free one to browse the AH.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:13 AM
You could just merge your accounts and make a free one to browse the AH.

Nah, I might have a use for the second set of mercs in the future.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:14 AM
Too bad you can't split a GK into two accounts to take advantage of the 1 year draft perk. :rolleyes:

If you are going to merge GK's it would have been better to just merge a pro. GK has significant value with all the account buffs and IMO should never be merged with itself. 2GK accounts separated will hold more real world value also.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:16 AM
If you are going to merge GK's it would have been better to just merge a pro. GK has significant value with all the account buffs and IMO should never be merged with itself. 2GK accounts separated will hold more real world value also.

I meant splitting a single GK pledge into two separate accounts.
i.e.
Pro Player, Dungeon Crawler, Raid Leader, and Collector on one account.
Guild Leader on a new account.

MatWith1T
05-24-2013, 09:26 AM
I know I am in the minority on this one, but I hope they crack down on multiple accounts.

Especially if/when real-money tournaments come to fruition, people aren't going to be as likely to participate if multi-boxing and collusion is readily apparent and accepted. I don't want to stake cash in a game that I know someone else is being given an unfair advantage.

The number of players that have both the Pro or GK Tier plus another $250 tier, and feel that they are entitled to free stuff that CZE explicitly said 'If you are already getting this, you are not getting it again'... it is a very small number compared to the total player base of the game. It strikes me as shortsighted to create an atmosphere of impropriety in order to appease such a tiny subset.

And yes, there are legitimate reasons for multiple accounts (families, roommates, etc)... and they should be monitored for excessive lopsided trades and perhaps even forbidden from participating in the same real-money tournaments.

I know its an extreme view, and not a widely shared one. But I do work with a lot of gambling software/machine/casino vendors, and know first-hand that even a whiff of unfair play can absolutely irrevocably destroy a company's reputation and existence.

Voices
05-24-2013, 09:26 AM
At the start of the game, certainly just one account for me. One never knows what the comes down the road when things have settled down a bit and there is some clear, official stance on multiple accounts, sharing of accounts, interaction between accounts etc.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 09:27 AM
If you are going to merge GK's it would have been better to just merge a pro. GK has significant value with all the account buffs and IMO should never be merged with itself. 2GK accounts separated will hold more real world value also.

Hmmm... so merging two Grand Kings would be like destroying one of them. I don't see myself quitting the game, but what if? That's one less Guild Master/Raid Leader/Dungeon Crawler for the game. Well... I still have plenty of time to decide.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:34 AM
I know I am in the minority on this one, but I hope they crack down on multiple accounts.

Especially if/when real-money tournaments come to fruition, people aren't going to be as likely to participate if multi-boxing and collusion is readily apparent and accepted. I don't want to stake cash in a game that I know someone else is being given an unfair advantage.

The number of players that have both the Pro or GK Tier plus another $250 tier, and feel that they are entitled to free stuff that CZE explicitly said 'If you are already getting this, you are not getting it again'... it is a very small number compared to the total player base of the game. It strikes me as shortsighted to create an atmosphere of impropriety in order to appease such a tiny subset.

And yes, there are legitimate reasons for multiple accounts (families, roommates, etc)... and they should be monitored for excessive lopsided trades and perhaps even forbidden from participating in the same real-money tournaments.

I know its an extreme view, and not a widely shared one. But I do work with a lot of gambling software/machine/casino vendors, and know first-hand that even a whiff of unfair play can absolutely irrevocably destroy a company's reputation and existence.

I want an even playing field too. I honestly would rather not have a second account. Here's the way it works in general. People want it to be fair, but if the company doesn't regulate, then people will create their own "fairness." Others will refuse to cheat, get left behind, and quit. I made a thread asking crypto to address my concerns for multiple accounts as well as multi boxing.

Daer
05-24-2013, 09:36 AM
You're better off submitting a question on the kickstarter page or PMing Kyle if you are looking for an answer.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:38 AM
You're better off submitting a question on the kickstarter page or PMing Kyle if you are looking for an answer.

Yeah. I'll probably do that tomorrow, if nothing is answered.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 09:39 AM
Well I think the main problem is it's pretty damn hard to impossible to identify multiple accounts of a single person versus multiple accounts of several people at the same location.

Additionally, there are a few perfectly normal uses of multiple accounts (high ranking players having an alt to play when matchmaker is really slow, for example.)

Really, just don't abuse it or make it wildly obvious you're an alt (k1ng dudeX and king dudeX with the same IP...)

Talreth
05-24-2013, 09:39 AM
CZE has already said they are against multiple accounts.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 09:43 AM
I think a big question will be how much multi-tasking can you do. Can you look at the auction house, and play at the same time? Can you participate in a tournament and do the solo campaign? Can you simultaneously do two drafts at the same time on the same account? If not, I think these are all fine reasons to have multiple accounts.

MatWith1T
05-24-2013, 09:44 AM
Well I think the main problem is it's pretty damn hard to impossible to identify multiple accounts of a single person versus multiple accounts of several people at the same location.

Additionally, there are a few perfectly normal uses of multiple accounts (high ranking players having an alt to play when matchmaker is really slow, for example.)

Really, just don't abuse it or make it wildly obvious you're an alt (k1ng dudeX and king dudeX with the same IP...)

Yeah, it is nearly impossible to catch multiple accounts if someone is actually making a conscious effort not to be caught.
But given unique card IDs and a digital server-side system that can presumably track and log every player-to-player transaction, it should be easier to identify collusion.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:45 AM
CZE has already said they are against multiple accounts.

Oh I know there stance on it, but what I want to know is how they will enforce it, it's a very very difficult task to do. The best thing, which I said in the other thread, is to take away as many of the incentives of having multiple accounts as possible. This is why having lifetime and yearly not stack is a problem. It adds a major incentive to have separate accounts. With that said, they should not necessarily make them stack, because that is bad too. The year of drafting, kind of made a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Talreth
05-24-2013, 09:49 AM
Oh I know there stance on it, but what I want to know is how they will enforce it, it's a very very difficult task to do. The best thing, which I said in the other thread, is to take away as many of the incentives of having multiple accounts as possible. This is why having lifetime and yearly not stack is a problem. It adds a major incentive. With that said, they should not necessarily make them stack, because that is bad too. The year of drafting, kind of made a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I think it's better we don't know how they'll enforce it, so we have a harder idea of how to get around it.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:55 AM
I think it's better we don't know how they'll enforce it, so we have a harder idea of how to get around it.

The 2 major ways are IP address and credit card, but neither of those is effective. I don't really need to know down to the specifics of it, I seriously doubt this can even be done. My biggest thing is the fact that they unknowingly incentivized multiple accounts. The first mistake was multipledging, the second was the non-stacking of certain benefits of each tier.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 09:56 AM
Oh I know there stance on it, but what I want to know is how they will enforce it, it's a very very difficult task to do. The best thing, which I said in the other thread, is to take away as many of the incentives of having multiple accounts as possible. This is why having lifetime and yearly not stack is a problem. It adds a major incentive to have separate accounts. With that said, they should not necessarily make them stack, because that is bad too. The year of drafting, kind of made a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

When asked about the potential to farm VIP memberships with multiple accounts CZE replied that they would use data mining on the server logs to identify abusers.

We can conclude that if they intend to turn their cannons on multiboxing or other "abuses" they would do the same.

How effective that data-mining is at detecting abuses is something I can't speak to, but personally I'd rather just merge my pledges to one account and play by the rules rather than risk it.

Really though, I'll bet 90% of multiple account holders can be detected by checking the name or billing address on their credit card.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 09:59 AM
When asked about the potential to farm VIP memberships with multiple accounts CZE replied that they would use data mining on the server logs to identify abusers.

We can conclude that if they intend to turn their cannons on multiboxing or other "abuses" they would do the same.

How effective that data-mining is at detecting abuses is something I can't speak to, but personally I'd rather just merge my pledges to one account and play by the rules rather than risk it.

Really though, I'll bet 90% of multiple account holders can be detected by checking the name or billing address on their credit card.

If they went that route they would end up banning any 2 family members playing together, which by the looks of it so far, are a lot of people. Even OP_Kyle would be banned as he intends to play with his daughter, who lives in the same place and would be under his credit card.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 10:02 AM
If I just knew which specific things they were against, I wouldn't do those. No multiple accounts in VIP? Done. I can give up those few months of $4/month on the other accounts and just stick to one for that purpose, then continue to pay for it on my main afterwards. But then for other scenarios where it doesn't affect anyone else if I do it or not, I'd like to do that.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:04 AM
Maybe they can have "household accounts" with sub-accounts, similar to the way ISPs handle e-mail addresses...

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:08 AM
If they went that route they would end up banning any 2 family members playing together, which by the looks of it so far, are a lot of people. Even OP_Kyle would be banned as he intends to play with his daughter, who lives in the same place and would be under his credit card.

I said "detect" not "ban".

The obvious next step is once you've identified people who have multiple accounts is to track the behavior of those accounts to detect abuses (multi-boxing, VIP farming, etc.) and ban them if they are breaking the rules.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:10 AM
Multi-boxing is abuse?

Maybe multi-boxing in the same PvP queue.

KeplerVerge
05-24-2013, 10:11 AM
Multiple accounts are a given, especially if you're a popular/renown player. Side accounts let you practice/strategizes with reduced disturbances. Or if you plan to go the merchant route and designate certain accounts as "rare seller", "pack seller" etc. The former might be reduced with an "appear offline" function and the latter with a flexible auction system.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:12 AM
Ok. "Detect." Multiboxing can't be detected. Say OP_Kyle raids with his daughter every day. He's a multiboxer from what they can see. The only thing they could monitor is the consolidation of cards and goods into one account.

Gwaer
05-24-2013, 10:15 AM
Merging 2 GK's does seem like a sub optimal situation. for the same money I'd think a merged GK + 2xpro or pro+collector... or i guess 2x collector would be a better use of resources.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:15 AM
Multi-boxing is abuse?

Maybe multi-boxing in the same PvP queue.

If having multiple accounts is against the ToS anything that you ned multiple accounts to do is an abuse.

If having multiple accounts is not against the ToS than multi-boxing in the Same PvP queue isn't an abuse either.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:16 AM
Multi-boxing is abuse?

Maybe multi-boxing in the same PvP queue.

Solo'ing a raid on 3 accounts or sitting next to yourself in a draft. Either is abuse of the system. It's something that someone who follows the rules won't have access to.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 10:21 AM
Solo'ing a raid on 3 accounts or sitting next to yourself in a draft. Either is abuse of the system. It's something that someone who follows the rules won't have access to.

I still don't quite follow that logic about soloing a raid, because everyone would have the ability to make multiple accounts. Some people can choose to do it, other people can choose not to.

[For other people: This was talked about a lot in this thread http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23972]

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:22 AM
I still don't quite follow that logic about soloing a raid, because everyone would have the ability to make multiple accounts. Some people can choose to do it, other people can choose not to.

Everyone who is not following the rules will have that ability.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 10:25 AM
Everyone who is not following the rules will have that ability.

If it's not against the rules, what is the negative impact on people who don't want to solo raids? If there is harm being done to other players because of this, by all means ban this behavior. If there isn't, then I don't see why it should be banned.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:27 AM
Ok. "Detect." Multiboxing can't be detected. Say OP_Kyle raids with his daughter every day. He's a multiboxer from what they can see. The only thing they could monitor is the consolidation of cards and goods into one account.

No his daughter's account will exhibit behavior typical of an active account (running dungeons, trading with random accounts, playing in events that overlap time-wise with things OP_Kyle's account is doing, etc.)

A multi box account will have anomalies such as: raids with the same other account every day but never does dungeons, trades exclusively with one other account, never does anything that time overlaps with the other account with the same billing address, etc.

Yes sufficiently advanced spoofing can make it look like your multi-box account is a real person, but at that point it's "mission accomplished" from a community management point of view as the point of discouraging multi-boxing is to discourage the antisocial behavior related to it that could damage the community.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:28 AM
If it's not against the rules, what is the negative impact on people who don't want to solo raids?

Solo'ing raids= less pool of players to group with and it has an effect on the economy as well. In my solo multiboxed raids I can get 3 times as many cards and crafting materials. I can craft an item in a third of the time it takes others. That directly affects the economy. I also would have way more gold.

@Turtlewing

That makes sense. Thanks. That helped ease a bit of my worries and I hope they can recognize those patterns.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:29 AM
Solo'ing a raid on 3 accounts or sitting next to yourself in a draft. Either is abuse of the system. It's something that someone who follows the rules won't have access to.

Yeah, multiboxing the same PvP queue is bad, as I mentioned.

I don't see how multiboxing a raid matters. Unlike most MMOs, you aren't much more coordinated than a pre-arranged group of people.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:33 AM
Solo'ing raids= less pool of players to group with and it has an effect on the economy as well. In my 3 multiboxed raids I can get 3 times as many cards and crafting materials. I can craft an item in a third of the time it takes others. That directly affects the economy. I also would have way more gold.


You don't get 3x as many cards/crafting materials, it's the same as before, but split differently (all going to 1 person). A group of 2 or 3 people (roommates, couples, siblings, etc.) from pooling resources is functionally identical.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:35 AM
If it's not against the rules, what is the negative impact on people who don't want to solo raids? If there is harm being done to other players because of this, by all means ban this behavior. If there isn't, then I don't see why it should be banned.

The main concern is that someone who multi-boxes a raid would get 3x the loot as what they'd get doing it with two other people, at no extra challenge.

That is arguably "unfair".

Personally I'm inclined to put this on the big list of things like free tournament rare drafters that are "bad for the game" in theory but are unlikely to cause measurable problems in practice.

The only damaging thing anyone's come up with to do with multiple accounts so far is VIP membership farming, and even that isn't likely to be the end of the game.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Yeah, multiboxing the same PvP queue is bad, as I mentioned.

I don't see how multiboxing a raid matters. Unlike most MMOs, you aren't much more coordinated than a pre-arranged group of people.

That's the problem. TCG's don't really take coordination to multibox. It comes more down to synergy of decks. Trust me, 2 of my decks are going to have more synergy than me and a random. If they say its fine then I will multibox just to be on a level playing field, but I'm pretty sure they don't want us doing this.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:36 AM
No his daughter's account will exhibit behavior typical of an active account (running dungeons, trading with random accounts, playing in events that overlap time-wise with things OP_Kyle's account is doing, etc.)

A multi box account will have anomalies such as: raids with the same other account every day but never does dungeons, trades exclusively with one other account, never does anything that time overlaps with the other account with the same billing address, etc.

That'd still pick up a number of false positives if, say, for example, I only play PvP and my friend only plays PvE, except when we have overlapping free time, when we raid together.

Then again, I don't even see the benefit of multi-boxing a raid. It's really only in situations where you're in the same competitive pool of players (or farming ranking/cards/wins off an opponent, which I don't think is possible atm). Better to aim for detecting those types of behaviors than multiple accounts in general.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:37 AM
Yeah, multiboxing the same PvP queue is bad, as I mentioned.

I don't see how multiboxing a raid matters. Unlike most MMOs, you aren't much more coordinated than a pre-arranged group of people.

multi-boxing a Raid is bad for the same reason multi-boxing PvP is bad. You get a better reward than you're supposed to be able to.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:37 AM
That's the problem. TCG's don't really take coordination to multibox. It comes more down to synergy of decks. Trust me, 2 of my decks are going to have more synergy than me and a random. If they say its fine then I will multibox just to be on a level playing field, but I'm pretty sure they don't want us doing this.

Don't compare it to a random, compare it to someone with whom you built a synergistic deck with (guildie, roommate, friend, whatever.)

It's not that hard to make a few extra decks as the game develops, specifically for raiding.
"'I'm running a weenie deck' - 'Okay, I'll run my black/red burn deck and clear the field' - 'I'll run my green/white deck with lots of buff cards.'"

houjix
05-24-2013, 10:38 AM
I think they want you to make friends, join a guild and plan a raid. PUGing will never be as good for the reason you said. However, it's not hard to broadcast, I've got X deck, looking for a Y and Z deck to run this raid.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Don't compare it to a random, compare it to someone with whom you built a synergistic deck with (guildie, roommate, friend, whatever.)

Ok lol. That's still the same boat. I'm more synergistic with myself than any other person in the world. Nobody will build exactly the way I do, play exactly the same and think exactly the same as myself.

Gwaer
05-24-2013, 10:41 AM
Ok lol. That's still the same boat. I'm more synergistic with myself than any other person in the world. Nobody will build exactly the way I do, play exactly the same and think exactly the same as myself.

I would do that for you Brumby.

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 10:41 AM
Solo'ing raids= less pool of players to group with and it has an effect on the economy as well. In my solo multiboxed raids I can get 3 times as many cards and crafting materials. I can craft an item in a third of the time it takes others. That directly affects the economy. I also would have way more gold.

@Turtlewing

That makes sense. Thanks. That helped ease a bit of my worries and I hope they can recognize those patterns.


Solo'ing raids= less pool of players to group with and it has an effect on the economy as well. In my 3 multiboxed raids I can get 3 times as many cards and crafting materials. I can craft an item in a third of the time it takes others. That directly affects the economy. I also would have way more gold.

I don't play MMO's, which is why I need clarification on this.

For point one (because its seems like any single three decks has just as good a chance as any no matter how many people are controlling them, since this is turn based and not reaction based game play), if the ability to solo is so detrimental that it's hard to find people to want to be in Guilds, I feel that's a problem with the game design and not this one rule. The game should most definitely have methods to encourage people to group up. If that's not happening, there is a key something missing with or without a rule banning solo raids.

For point two, you are saying that it can increase the amount of loot that is gotten from raids, which devalues the loot gotten from teams, because there is now more loot out in the environment. This is because, as an extreme, if every single person interested in PvE solo's raids, there are now three times as much loot out in the wild. And now if any three people in this scenario decide to team up, they're effectively giving up 2/3rds of their loot.

So for point two, I think I can finally see the potential danger. If there is an advantage, the people who want to farm loot to sell will take advantage of it. Much like how the PvP players swooped in expectantly on the PP Tier after being given permission. I'm still not quite there would be so many people that would do this that it would devalue items by a significant amount (If one or two people do this, what does it matter really. If 50% do it, then it's a problem), and I'm still not quite sure it wouldn't be more of a game design issue, where Cryptozoic could keep on adding more features that it is more beneficial to be in a guild regardless of the ability to solo raids. But now I do at least have some doubts that maybe it isn't a good idea.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 10:42 AM
That'd still pick up a number of false positives if, say, for example, I only play PvP and my friend only plays PvE, except when we have overlapping free time, when we raid together.

Then again, I don't even see the benefit of multi-boxing a raid. It's really only in situations where you're in the same competitive pool of players (or farming ranking/cards/wins off an opponent, which I don't think is possible atm). Better to aim for detecting those types of behaviors than multiple accounts in general.

I see you don't understand the concept of an example.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:44 AM
Ok lol. That's still the same boat. I'm more synergistic with myself than any other person in the world. Nobody will build exactly the way I do, play exactly the same and think exactly the same as myself.

Huh? Maybe another player has a better idea and, surprise!, it works better than yours.

The effects of multi-boxing for raids is pretty minor compared to playing with a few equally skilled players. Additionally, you're also assuming you have access to all the cards you might need.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:45 AM
I would do that for you Brumby.

Lol Gwaer. You know me better than I know myself.

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 10:49 AM
I see you don't understand the concept of an example.

...I'm presenting an example that potentially meets all of your stated qualities of a multi-box account without being a multi-box.

Ugh, whatever, I only plan on using an alt account. I don't plan on running multi-box dungeons/drafts/whatnot, and I wouldn't like to be unintentionally flagged as an "abuser".

Boojum
05-24-2013, 10:52 AM
I know that a turn-based game is technically easier to multi-box than one where you have to be reacting in real time, but man, swapping back and forth to click "pass priority" a jillion times per turn would drive me nuts.

Brumby66
05-24-2013, 10:52 AM
...I'm presenting an example that potentially meets all of your stated qualities of a multi-box account without being a multi-box.

Ugh, whatever, I only plan on using an alt account. I don't plan on running multi-box dungeons/drafts/whatnot, and I wouldn't like to be unintentionally flagged as an "abuser".

They should have multiple character creations typical of an MMO. This would allow you to make and use an alt under the same client without multi boxing. Obviously trading between your own alts doesn't look suspicious.

nicosharp
05-24-2013, 10:54 AM
So... The more I thought about this, there is another value add to stacking pledges in the 3months VIP stacking.
4 pledges stacked for 3months VIP, gives you additional set 2 and set 3 packs you would otherwise only be getting more set 1 which will already be over saturated.

I don't really care about this as I only pledged once for myself, and once for my wife - but could see someone that is hardcore going for a four stack for this reason. However, it would be nice if all non-stacking bonuses (like a Raid Leader Bonus, or a 100% gold/treasure loot, and PvE mercenaries) were tradeable, but not auctionable? (is that even a possibility?).

It's going to be an issue no matter how you slice it up.

Fireblast
05-24-2013, 11:10 AM
I've multi-boxed quite a few times in EQ, camped mobs that were serverwide and nobody complained and it was fair.

For real prize tournaments you'll have to share your real ID (address, name, etc...) so I don't see how you can multi-box that

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LexC
05-24-2013, 11:17 AM
Interesting topic.

For me it will depend on weather it is legal to have two accounts, because I wouldn't mind having a second account for AH browsing, especially when the game is out on the Tablet. Not talking about Multiboxing because I doubt my brain will handle the information overload if I try to play two different or the same games at the same time with 2 or even 3 different decks.

And I would like to have an account ready to get my skeptical friends interested in this game. I don't particularly want to give them access to my main Account, but having a second account with 2 decks pre-built and ready for an introduction would be sweet :)

ForgedSol
05-24-2013, 11:26 AM
Moving on from the multi-boxing stuff, I would love to have a second account that my brother can use sometimes. I'd like to use it to lure him into the game. I can see how Cryptozoic could be against this, but I had thought of perhaps letting him use my free draft sometimes and letting him keep any packs he wins so he can feed his own account. If that's not possible, I'll probably just end up giving him the account and he pays me back with cards/packs.

Simply using a second account to watch the AH while playing is a fantastic idea that should not be banned.

Fireblast
05-24-2013, 11:36 AM
The only issue would be for worlds championships, but since you'd have to share you real ID, there is NO issue.

As the other "issues" sounds like this one :
People with more cards/better skill will farm PvE faster, they should be banned!!

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Hibbert
05-24-2013, 11:59 AM
PvE multiboxing only becomes a real issue if it becomes the norm. I know a lot of EQ is ruled by multiboxers now. I've heard that back in the day, DaoC and AC both had problems with people being "required" to run a second account for a buffbot. The problem is that if everyone is multiboxing, then the person who doesn't want to multibox will have a harder time finding a group. This should be less of a concern in Hex with a max raid size of three, but if it gets out of hand, I'd hope CZE takes some steps to curb it.

PvP multiboxing, even in the draft queues, is more worrying. Being able to play multiple seats in a tournament really unbalances things. I hope the queue system is set up such that it would be very difficult to consistently get multiple accounts in the same tournament.

I'm also surprised at all the people openly talking about possibly selling accounts. CZE might turn a blind eye to secondary plat/card sales, but I doubt they'll allow account sales. The your ranking, championship points, and account perks are not meant to be tradable.

Fireblast
05-24-2013, 12:36 PM
People multiboxed cause the playerbases were small and it took ages to get groups.
Also keep in mind that there was not much website for "how to play well" so high end players played with themselves (no pun intended) cause it was easier.

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