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MrCwis
05-24-2013, 12:00 PM
So while browsing the kickstater comments i found this one from abe lewis, i found it amusingly accurate to what happened when the kickstarter happened.

The Collector: "Hmm... I could get 6 new cards a year or I could get... 2340 new cards a year! OMG!" *grabs PP tier*

The Raid Leader: "Hmm... I could give my wingmen an extra card in hand or... I could give them all the best cards from my massive collection!" *grabs PP tier*

The Dungeon Crawler: "I could get a greater chance to get loot drops or... I could get a bunch of extra items every year ALONG with thousands of cards!" *grabs PP tier*

The Guild Master: "I could give a marginal boost to my guild mates or I could... never have to put another dime into this game?!?!?" *grabs PP tier*

The Pro Player: "Pro Player tier sucks. Thanks for kicking me in the face, Crypto."

Everyone Else: "Huh? Where'd all the PP rewards go? How come I don't get $364 a year for my $250 investment?"

Facilier
05-24-2013, 12:03 PM
I found this insightful description of what happened this week:

"In short, Cryptozoic offered a players 5 choices it deemed equal. The KS community decided PP was the most valuable. Cryptozoic took too long to respond, and PP/GK was sold out before the other tiers were balanced out. In response, other tiers were given rewards that have no synergy with their original purpose (drafts have nothing to do with dungeons, guilds, or raids.) No one's really satisfied because the people who wanted PP still don't have lifetime drafts, where the PP are confused because now everyone has "their" reward for a year. The carefully crafted bonus completely skips over GK+, which has an increasingly inaccurate description. Now (some) PP/GK backers are voicing their displeasure at the move, but holding onto their tiers in hopes that it will be rectified before the end of the project. In response, Cryptozoic doubled-down on their strategy with a second update.

Does that about sum it up?"

MrCwis
05-24-2013, 12:10 PM
Yes, Cryptozoic response was "Our player base is upset that we're offering a year of free drafts to the 250s and leaving out the pro player and all the above tiers as the legendary stretch goal. What can we do to fix this?" "Just give them the year free without making it a stretch goal?" "Awesome, lets do that."


While we all know the tiers weren't balance and the Pro player is still the best value, it's odd to see a company that has been handling their PR so well for this kickstarter seemingly get something so wrong. But this still isn't going to change anyone's mind on pledge PP, it just makes every other 250 better.

nicosharp
05-24-2013, 12:13 PM
"Does that about sum it up?"

Not really.
The only confusion is in the perceived value of PvE, or otherwise "free", content. Vs. PVP purchased content actual cash value.
You could give almost anything to the 4 other PvE tiers, and the actual cash value would never equal the PP tiers. The small action to sweeten the $250 PvE tiers was to add measurable actual cash value to a rather arbitrary valued tier.

GK and PP backers that voice displeasure have no tact.

Tathel
05-24-2013, 12:27 PM
So are people made that PP was best value?...

i don't understand... the King early bird was better value than king,

so why be made about another tier that is better value for price than other tiers at the same cost?

I'd just look at it as the 'early bird' deal of the 250 tiers

Yasi
05-24-2013, 12:29 PM
The only confusion is in the perceived value of PvE, or otherwise "free", content. Vs. PVP purchased content actual cash value.You could give almost anything to the 4 other PvE tiers, and the actual cash value would never equal the PP tiers. The small action to sweeten the $250 PvE tiers was to add measurable actual cash value to a rather arbitrary valued tier.

Pretty much this. People are undervaluing PvE because I'm guessing it's the "once PvE is beaten, none of the lifetime rewards matter." While the lifetime draft for the Pro Tier will still be valuable for the longevity of your playtime. However, that is the case because pledgers in general are putting arbitrary values on each of the tiers when very little information are available for PvE. It would be more reassuring to the other tiers if they provided numbers on PvE content regarding the equipments, gems, crafting, etc...

Tyrfang
05-24-2013, 12:30 PM
I wonder if you'll be able to use the Raid Leader benefit against Player-made raid decks.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 12:32 PM
I wonder if you'll be able to use the Raid Leader benefit against Player-made raid decks.

Logically speaking, I assume so, but so little information are given on the mechanics of Hex atm that it can be anyone's guess.

Turtlewing
05-24-2013, 01:12 PM
Does that about sum it up?"

I would describe it more like this:

CZE make 5 tiers that they thought were equal in value

The playerbase undervalued PvE because it's new and different and rationalizing the familiar is easy
The playerbase equated free drafts to free packs every week (the difference is subtle and small but it is real)
Some enterprising min/maxer maneuvered CZE into committing to let the free draft per week stack (but not any of the other supposedly equivalent value rewards)
The playerbase begins not only stacking Pro player but advising new backers that stacking pro player is the optimal backing strategy.

Pro player sells out

New backers complain that they can't get pro player (partly because others are stacking several)

CZE responds to the perceived value dissonance and the potential backers who are choosing not to donate due to pro player being sold out by adding a lesser version of the pro player draft perk to the other four 250 tiers. Thus raising the opportunity cost of choosing pro player. And triggering loss aversion behavior in some backers.

Those backers who felt slighted began complaining.

Unrelated to the whining CZE decides that they'll get more pledges if they make the free draft per week for a year a sure thing rather than a stretch goal so they do.

By the time of the change the whining had mostly run out of steam anyway, so it looks like the change to the stretch goal "fixed" it.

Yasi
05-24-2013, 01:26 PM
By the time of the change the whining had mostly run out of steam anyway

Pretty much what happens with trivial things like this(there are still some noices in the background, but the majority are content just to voice their discontent). I'm glad they still addressed an issue that the community had nonetheless.

stiii
05-24-2013, 01:41 PM
I found this insightful description of what happened this week:

"In short, Cryptozoic offered a players 5 choices it deemed equal. The KS community decided PP was the most valuable. Cryptozoic took too long to respond, and PP/GK was sold out before the other tiers were balanced out. In response, other tiers were given rewards that have no synergy with their original purpose (drafts have nothing to do with dungeons, guilds, or raids.) No one's really satisfied because the people who wanted PP still don't have lifetime drafts, where the PP are confused because now everyone has "their" reward for a year. The carefully crafted bonus completely skips over GK+, which has an increasingly inaccurate description. Now (some) PP/GK backers are voicing their displeasure at the move, but holding onto their tiers in hopes that it will be rectified before the end of the project. In response, Cryptozoic doubled-down on their strategy with a second update.

Does that about sum it up?"

No

"No one's really satisfied" Some people will always complain, people who are happy probably won't post on the forums saying I'm still happy. It seems to me that most people are still happy and accept that PP tier was and still is the best otherwise they'd swtich tiers. This is of course rather subjective.

stiii
05-24-2013, 01:43 PM
Yes, Cryptozoic response was "Our player base is upset that we're offering a year of free drafts to the 250s and leaving out the pro player and all the above tiers as the legendary stretch goal. What can we do to fix this?" "Just give them the year free without making it a stretch goal?" "Awesome, lets do that."


While we all know the tiers weren't balance and the Pro player is still the best value, it's odd to see a company that has been handling their PR so well for this kickstarter seemingly get something so wrong. But this still isn't going to change anyone's mind on pledge PP, it just makes every other 250 better.

So what would you have had them do instead? Saying they did it so wrong suggests there was some better way of doing it.

Ebynfel
05-25-2013, 02:02 AM
No

"No one's really satisfied" Some people will always complain, people who are happy probably won't post on the forums saying I'm still happy. It seems to me that most people are still happy and accept that PP tier was and still is the best otherwise they'd swtich tiers. This is of course rather subjective.

Many of us with PP and GK posted on the forums that we were still happy, and welcomed the other 250 tiers into the draft queues...

Shinjica
05-25-2013, 02:07 AM
This comment on the kickstarter page seem really neat and complete


In short, Cryptozoic offered a players 5 choices it deemed equal. The KS community decided PP was the most valuable. Cryptozoic took too long to respond, and PP/GK was sold out before the other tiers were balanced out. In response, other tiers were given rewards that have no synergy with their original purpose (drafts have nothing to do with dungeons, guilds, or raids.) No one's really satisfied because the people who wanted PP still don't have lifetime drafts, where the PP are confused because now everyone has "their" reward for a year. The carefully crafted bonus completely skips over GK+, which has an increasingly inaccurate description. Now (some) PP/GK backers are voicing their displeasure at the move, but holding onto their tiers in hopes that it will be rectified before the end of the project. In response, Cryptozoic doubled-down on their strategy with a second update.
Does that about sum it up?

Milamber
05-25-2013, 06:30 AM
Obviously still soo many people that don't get the point, probably because they are unable to put themselves in some one else's shoes.
The reason it sparked a reaction was that everyone was highly anticipating the legendary goal. Then the 2 tiers that funded 75% of all the funds at that stage weren't invited to celebrate at the legendary dinner table.... Simple as that, it was anticlimactic and a let down.
Its good thing that remaining tiers got a boost but its unfortunate that being such a considerable buff the fact PP and GK were excluded made the loss of being included in the celebration that much harder to swallow.

I didn't think the debate ran out of steam by any means, rather I'd hope that people like myself came to realise that the point was voiced and those that didnt get it simply wouldnt. More importantly, that the dissension in the hex kickstarter comments wasn't helpful to the external perception of the community and was getting tarnished with the risk of misrepresenting what we all got onboard for in the first place.
Support and belief that the CZE team is committed, capable and motivated to bring relisation to an awesome experience and innovative way to flip digital cards and interact socially in PVE and cop a few hits to the face in PVP.

They miss handled the situation but it doesn't change what brought us all here together for in the first place.
This is where the counter point against the outcry has some context, we need to keep perspective.

As many great people have said, "is it September yet"

Kami
05-25-2013, 06:57 AM
Then the 2 tiers that funded 75% of all the funds at that stage weren't invited to celebrate at the legendary dinner table.... Simple as that, it was anticlimactic and a let down.
Its good thing that remaining tiers got a boost but its unfortunate that being such a considerable buff the fact PP and GK were excluded made the loss of being included in the celebration that much harder to swallow.

Wow... you're complaining that you want to contribute only $250-500 (consisting of thousands of people) to sit at the table with the high-rollers versus people who actually paid $1000-10000 on a single pledge (like 55 people)?

Sure, more of you contributed but how many of you did it take to match a DL or higher?

PP and GK were fine to begin with - if you can't see that, that's really your problem. This has been discussed to death. They needed no buffs and there were no additional restrictions added to them.

Chance
05-25-2013, 08:14 AM
everyone is right yay! Lets stop fighting now

Milamber
05-25-2013, 08:40 AM
I'd have thought it was obvious i saw value in my pledge, that was why i made it in the first place ??!
Again the point is missed.
Though Kami, if you backed at Producer your allowed whatever opinion you like, it's a worthy dedication of your support to everything that Hex is to become and I respect that you have done so.

But...

everyone is right yay! Lets stop fighting now
+1 Chance, You've got the right end of things here...
I probably shouldn't have fallen into trying to explain a perspective.
To that end, my bad.

Vibraxus
05-25-2013, 09:13 AM
I REALLY wish CZE would just post up a sticky here, and in the KS page something like:

"Thank you VERY much to all backers, current and future. The tiers are set and will be no more added, and no more count added to existing ones. There will be no more perks added to existing tiers as we have announced our final stretch goal. The following is a definitive list of what each tier gets and what stacks. Again thank you very much for being a part of our community."

That way we can just put an end to the whining. IMHO of course.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 09:16 AM
I REALLY wish CZE would just post up a sticky here, and in the KS page something like:

"Thank you VERY much to all backers, current and future. The tiers are set and will be no more added, and no more count added to existing ones. There will be no more perks added to existing tiers as we have announced our final stretch goal. The following is a definitive list of what each tier gets and what stacks. Again thank you very much for being a part of our community."

That way we can just put an end to the whining. IMHO of course.

+99999999999999999999999999999999999999999

gilby123
05-25-2013, 09:45 AM
No

"No one's really satisfied" Some people will always complain, people who are happy probably won't post on the forums saying I'm still happy. It seems to me that most people are still happy and accept that PP tier was and still is the best otherwise they'd swtich tiers. This is of course rather subjective.

Agreed. Plenty of folks that are content have posted as well, myself one of them, trying to explain rationally why and why those voicing displeasure, while their right to do so, comes off as a lot of complaining about wanting more.

Shrennan
05-25-2013, 10:00 AM
The Legendary additions were really the only misstep of this entire campaign (besides the mobile support because that's a worthy stretch). The additions to the other tiers should have all been lifetime ones dealing with their respective tier - for instance, Collector could get 30 alternate art that Crypto would choose per set but the Collector would have to open them in booster packs; Guild Leader could get codes for 15 packs per month (the codes could come in sets of 5 - so three codes for 15 packs) over the life of the game, etc.

Still, the value of all the tiers are still really great and I fully support Hex and what Crypto is trying to accomplish with it. I haven't criticized at all what Crypto has done with the Legendary tier (until now, I suppose) but I don't really think there's a valid criticism due to the value that everyone still gets - I just think that there should have been an equal value but different specialization to each tier instead of the somewhat bad marketing stigma that can come with copying the Pro Tier across all of the other $250 tiers.

Rhagga
05-25-2013, 10:24 AM
Obviously still soo many people that don't get the point, probably because they are unable to put themselves in some one else's shoes.
The reason it sparked a reaction was that everyone was highly anticipating the legendary goal. Then the 2 tiers that funded 75% of all the funds at that stage weren't invited to celebrate at the legendary dinner table.... Simple as that, it was anticlimactic and a let down.
Its good thing that remaining tiers got a boost but its unfortunate that being such a considerable buff the fact PP and GK were excluded made the loss of being included in the celebration that much harder to swallow.

I didn't think the debate ran out of steam by any means, rather I'd hope that people like myself came to realise that the point was voiced and those that didnt get it simply wouldnt. More importantly, that the dissension in the hex kickstarter comments wasn't helpful to the external perception of the community and was getting tarnished with the risk of misrepresenting what we all got onboard for in the first place.
Support and belief that the CZE team is committed, capable and motivated to bring relisation to an awesome experience and innovative way to flip digital cards and interact socially in PVE and cop a few hits to the face in PVP.

They miss handled the situation but it doesn't change what brought us all here together for in the first place.
This is where the counter point against the outcry has some context, we need to keep perspective.

As many great people have said, "is it September yet"

Well Summarized. I got the Pro Pack. It felt petty to ask for more, as it is a great deal, but the feeling of being left out was what bothered me. I'm fine with them boosting the other $250 packs. After all you can still change it to the other packs if you prefer the other deal.

They have rectified it although the site still shows the 1 year of free draft as a stretch goal bonus.

Regardless, I'm still really impressed with the quality and creativity they have put forward. I'm certainly anxious for December.

As a side note does anyone know why you can't get a GK since it only has 959 backers?

Verdant
05-25-2013, 10:27 AM
As a side note does anyone know why you can't get a GK since it only has 959 backers?
Paypal backers, I reckon. Can be wrong though.

Hadin
05-25-2013, 11:57 AM
Paypal backers, I reckon. Can be wrong though.

Yep it is paypal backers. They adjusted the totals as more PP backers took up spots.

Thanisse
05-25-2013, 01:59 PM
Yep it is paypal backers. They adjusted the totals as more PP backers took up spots.

presuming the paypall backers will withdraw their funds , will there be a timeframe to catch the GK released or not ?

DarkSeverance
05-25-2013, 02:18 PM
presuming the paypall backers will withdraw their funds , will there be a timeframe to catch the GK released or not ?I doubt Paypal backers will withdraw. Usually anything done with paypal is done immediately. Those funds would of already been paid and received. They could request a refund but if they were unsure then they should of done it through Kickstarter.

Now since through Kickstarter the funds aren't charged immediately. You will probably have some tiers be released as they get closer to the deadline date. That usually happens because people didn't get enough funds raised in time or they simply changed their mind.