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Autzen
05-24-2013, 07:43 PM
Looking through the released cards so far, two have caught my eye that make me wonder how this mechanic would resolve:

Infected Zombie: When this troop deals fatal damage to a troop, transform that troop into Infected Zombie and put it into play under your control.

Vampire King: When an opposing troop dies, if this troop is in play, transform that troop into a Vampire and put it into play under your control.

We know this game doesn't use tokens, and from my understanding of revealed mechanics the cards in question actually transform for the match. So which one would take precedence here and/or how would the situation resolve?

wallofomens
05-24-2013, 07:47 PM
Looking through the released cards so far, two have caught my eye that make me wonder how this mechanic would resolve:

Infected Zombie: When this troop deals fatal damage to a troop, transform that troop into Infected Zombie and put it into play under your control.

Vampire King: When an opposing troop dies, if this troop is in play, transform that troop into a Vampire and put it into play under your control.

We know this game doesn't use tokens, and from my understanding of revealed mechanics the cards in question actually transform for the match. So which one would take precedence here and/or how would the situation resolve?

When the opposing troop is dealth fatal damage, Infected Zombie's effect triggers, applying the transformation. The opposing troop never dies for Vampire King's ability to trigger. :)

funktion
05-24-2013, 07:59 PM
When the opposing troop is dealth fatal damage, Infected Zombie's effect triggers, applying the transformation. The opposing troop never dies for Vampire King's ability to trigger. :)

You don't know that. Maybe damage doesn't "go on the stack." Another possibility here is that they both trigger and you choose which takes precedence, which is the likely case.

wallofomens
05-24-2013, 08:02 PM
You don't know that. Maybe damage doesn't "go on the stack." Another possibility here is that they both trigger and you choose which takes precedence, which is the likely case.

Nowhere on the Infected Zombie card does it say that the opposing troop goes to the graveyard at any point, it is simply transformed. While I am not 100% sure, I am sure that my explanation is the likely case. :)

houjix
05-24-2013, 08:09 PM
If WoW TCG is any precedent for this, funktion would actually be correct. An ally in WoW gets deal fatal damage it will be sent the the GY as part of pre-priority processing in which no triggered powers have yet had a chance to resolve. So the Vampire King power would trigger at this time. One of the last steps of PPP is adding waiting triggers to the chain(stack). Since the same player would control both triggers, they would get to choose the order to resolve them. After the first resolves, the power of the second no longer has any effect since it is no longer the same card.

Ebynfel
05-24-2013, 08:11 PM
It'll be a Zombie Vampire. It'll be a horrendous abomination that must be destroyed lest their kind overwhelm us all!

wallofomens
05-24-2013, 08:15 PM
If WoW TCG is any precedent for this, funktion would actually be correct. An ally in WoW gets deal fatal damage it will be sent the the GY as part of pre-priority processing in which no triggered powers have yet had a chance to resolve. So the Vampire King power would trigger at this time. One of the last steps of PPP is adding waiting triggers to the chain(stack). Since the same player would control both triggers, they would get to choose the order to resolve them. After the first resolves, the power of the second no longer has any effect since it is no longer the same card.

If. My whole point is that the card dealt fatal damage never goes to the graveyard, even though it is dealt fatal damage. I have played both WoW TCG and MtG and am familiar with the rules but the case here is different. I am willing to accept that I might be wrong but I am 95ish% sure that I'm right. :) Would love for a dev to settle the argument.

EDIT: Thought I'd post the cards so people could see what we're talking about.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/infected_zombie-215x300.png

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/vampire_king-215x300.png

Autzen
05-24-2013, 08:17 PM
Well I'm glad there is some discussion on this and that it wasn't simply a case of too many rum and cokes for me this evening ;) Looking forward to some other folks wading in on it.

houjix
05-24-2013, 08:21 PM
No, the case is not different. Combat resolves and damage is dealt and no one has priority at this time, which means no triggers will resolve. PPP happens, things with fatal damage die and go to the graveyard. Still no triggers resolving yet. Right before Priority is regained, all waiting triggers get added to the chain. Trust me, the majority of my 2600+ posts have come from answering WoW rules questions.

wallofomens
05-24-2013, 08:22 PM
To be honest while looking at the cards just now, the wording "put it into play" got me a bit worried, so I am a bit less confident about my answer. :) It could simply be a matter of stacking triggers.

wallofomens
05-24-2013, 08:24 PM
No, the case is not different. Combat resolves and damage is dealt and no one has priority at this time, which means no triggers will resolve. PPP happens, things with fatal damage die and go to the graveyard. Still no triggers resolving yet. Right before Priority is regained, all waiting triggers get added to the chain. Trust me, the majority of my 2600+ posts have come from answering WoW rules questions.

Trust me, I am not disputing that you have better knowledge of the rules than me. I would still like to see an official answer, though. Just to make sure. :)

Karokoram
05-24-2013, 08:53 PM
Its also important to remember we don't know their definition of "dies," it could mean go to the GY or having been dealt fatal damage.

Fateanomaly
05-24-2013, 10:00 PM
Cryptozoic has to further refine their text to avoid using ambiguous word.

KeplerVerge
05-24-2013, 10:05 PM
We can't know for sure without having the rule-set. However, I'm inclined to agree with omens based on the existing card text and my experience with current tcg rule-set. I would think they'd have kept the same terminology if the function was the same, eg: "If a troop dies from damage dealt by Infected Zombie, transform that troop into Infected Zombie and put it into play under your control"

With the terminology of "fatal damage," that could include troops that are indestructible and, while dealt fatal damage, do not die. This would mean this card becomes even more useful than it first appears. In mtg, cards that are indestructible "ignore the lethal-damage state-based action" but since IZ's ability triggers on dealing fatal damage and not whether that fatal damage is ultimately applicable, I think the effect would still trigger even though the damaged troop would not be sent to graveyard.

Erebus
05-24-2013, 10:14 PM
Also people, remember that this is still Pre-Alpha. Perhaps the text on both cards are to indicate the same effect but written by two different writers. It'll be our job as Beta testers to keep an eye out for these kind of things and intentional break it. We can send our reports in with what the effect we expected and what actually happened.

I'm sure the rules will be updated so that the terms used here are not vague or the cards will be re-written to be more consistent.

ShaolinRaven
05-24-2013, 10:18 PM
Also though, since this is digital you can resolve both sets very easily and since they both create a version of the creature that dies then you get one version for each of the cards. So if you have them combo then you get 2 creatures, once for the zombie, once for the vampire.

dogmod
05-25-2013, 12:45 AM
No, the case is not different. Combat resolves and damage is dealt and no one has priority at this time, which means no triggers will resolve. PPP happens, things with fatal damage die and go to the graveyard. Still no triggers resolving yet. Right before Priority is regained, all waiting triggers get added to the chain. Trust me, the majority of my 2600+ posts have come from answering WoW rules questions.

Good thing this is a WoW rules questions... oh waits.. I second the rum and cokes.

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 01:15 AM
I guess you'll choose what it transforms to.

~

Autzen
05-25-2013, 06:01 AM
Good Feedback everybody, thanks for your opinions :D

houjix
05-25-2013, 06:21 AM
Good thing this is a WoW rules questions... oh waits.. I second the rum and cokes.

You're right, it isn't WoW nor Magic, just a game that is 95% the same as Magic with a sprinkle of WoW designed by the guys who make WoW. To think they would deviate very far from the timing system in those game doesn't make a lot of sense. And in neither of those games would it have worked like omens was originally describing. The only thing that may differ is it might not lose track of the card as the first trigger resolves, meaning the second resolving trigger may be ultimately what it turns into. Either way it is most likely you will get the choice of what it transforms into.

Dralon
05-25-2013, 06:39 AM
Having cut my ccg teeth on the SWCCG, I am no stranger to studying the rule book for hours to both ensure understanding and find advantages, and avoidbeing taken advantage of in games. Which is another reason I am so excited about Hex. The rules questions will be arbitrated automatically by the computer. No pulling out the rulebook looking for section x :subsection y : addendum 33

MasterPlan
05-25-2013, 07:14 AM
Looking through the released cards so far, two have caught my eye that make me wonder how this mechanic would resolve:

Infected Zombie: When this troop deals fatal damage to a troop, transform that troop into Infected Zombie and put it into play under your control.

Vampire King: When an opposing troop dies, if this troop is in play, transform that troop into a Vampire and put it into play under your control.

We know this game doesn't use tokens, and from my understanding of revealed mechanics the cards in question actually transform for the match. So which one would take precedence here and/or how would the situation resolve?

I honestly do not see the conflict. Player A has infected Zombies and Player B has the Vampire King. Vampire Kings ability only triggers when an opposing troop dies. Unless Player A is using his own infected Zombies to attack each other the Vampire Kings ability would not be in conflict with the Zombies..

If you are saying what happens to an infected Zombie that is then subsequently killed... Play B ends up with an infected zombie under his control that is also a vampire.

If its a combat where both an infected zombie and say monster X both kill each other. then The infected zombie goes under player B's control as a vampire and monster X gets transformed into an infected Zombie under Player A's Control.

Unless I am completely missing your question.

Digital_Aether
05-25-2013, 07:19 AM
MasterPlan, the question comes in when you have both the Vampire King and the Infect Zombie. If the Infected Zombie kills let's say an enemy shin'hare, then they are debating whether you get the shin'hare as a zombie or a vampire. Generally, no ability happens until after the card is killed. Personally, I think that the Infected Zombie's ability would trigger before going to the graveyard, whether or not it's been done in other titles before this one. "Dealt fatal damage" occurs before the card actually dies, regenerates, etc. They're trying to break the mold on TCG's, and I think there's no reason to assume they won't here as well.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 07:20 AM
I honestly do not see the conflict. Player A has infected Zombies and Player B has the Vampire King. Vampire Kings ability only triggers when an opposing troop dies. Unless Player A is using his own infected Zombies to attack each other the Vampire Kings ability would not be in conflict with the Zombies..

If you are saying what happens to an infected Zombie that is then subsequently killed... Play B ends up with an infected zombie under his control that is also a vampire.

If its a combat where both an infected zombie and say monster X both kill each other. then The infected zombie goes under player B's control as a vampire and monster X gets transformed into an infected Zombie under Player A's Control.

Unless I am completely missing your question.

He is asking what happens when you have both Infected Zombie and Vampire King on your side in play and your Infected Zombie deals fatal damage to any troop your opponent has.

juzamjedi
05-25-2013, 08:24 AM
These are triggers. The only question is when do they trigger. To me these both seem to trigger on similar condition (enemy troop dealt lethal damage). If you control both triggers then you should be able to choose the order in which they happen.

SacrificialToast
05-25-2013, 08:36 AM
Cryptozoic has to further refine their text to avoid using ambiguous word.

Theoretically, since it's a digital only format, minor ambiguities shouldn't really matter as long as the scripting works in the intended manner.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 08:46 AM
Theoretically, since it's a digital only format, minor ambiguities shouldn't really matter as long as the scripting works in the intended manner.

Not quite. You really need to know how everything works in order to build competitive decks or make intelligent draft picks.

dogmod
05-25-2013, 08:49 AM
Not quite. You really need to know how everything works in order to build competitive decks or make intelligent draft picks.

Hmm playtesting?

Omegahugger
05-25-2013, 08:49 AM
Not quite. You really need to know how everything works in order to build competitive decks or make intelligent draft picks.

Isn't that when you use PvE and/or the forums to doublecheck that your combos work as planned?

Grissnap
05-25-2013, 08:52 AM
But it's pretty obvious, deals fatal damage and dies are different timings.

Dealt damage comes before dying right? Because if you don't first deal the damage, the troop wouldn't die. I am 100% certain it would become a zombie.

juzamjedi
05-25-2013, 08:54 AM
Most likely the ambiguity is on our side right now because we don't have official rules. Hopefully crypto will publish comprehensive rules before game comes out. I agree that we should be able to expect how a mechanic will work before playing the card (we just don't know enough YET to say for sure).

houjix
05-25-2013, 08:58 AM
But it's pretty obvious, deals fatal damage and dies are different timings.

Dealt damage comes before dying right? Because if you don't first deal the damage, the troop wouldn't die. I am 100% certain it would become a zombie.

It will all depend on the timing system and when things happen. If it's like WoW, "when" denotes a triggered power that gets added to the chain and can be responded too. If there's a window between the troop taking the fatal damage and going to the graveyard, then it would be a zombie. If not, then it could be either.

So yes the damage does come first, but it doesn't mean that power resolves immediately.

juzamjedi
05-25-2013, 08:58 AM
But it's pretty obvious, deals fatal damage and dies are different timings.

Dealt damage comes before dying right? Because if you don't first deal the damage, the troop wouldn't die. I am 100% certain it would become a zombie.With no offense intended... how can you be 100% certain? You don't have rules to point to and say "it works this way." Based on MTG we have state based effects that put the card into the graveyard when lethal damage is applied to it. Triggers will go on stack after all state based effects are complete i.e. going into the graveyard. Controller of both triggers would decide the order of the triggers.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 09:01 AM
Hmm playtesting?

No. :) You playtest to test decks, strategies. Not to test the rules of the game and every possible wording for them.


Isn't that when you use PvE and/or the forums to doublecheck that your combos work as planned?

Well, no. You check the forums to ask how a certain thing would work/resolve. If the wording is correct and unambiguous and you know the rules it should be mostly clear what each card does. For me, it is unacceptable to have different wording for the same thing in a TCG(Absolutely fine during alpha, ofc).

Talreth
05-25-2013, 09:05 AM
For me, it is unacceptable to have different wording for the same thing in a TCG(Absolutely fine during alpha, ofc).

This, especially since lots of words in a TCG mean very very precise things.

Grissnap
05-25-2013, 09:11 AM
Here is my reasoning (with no offense intended):

1.Someone needs to make a stand and come out with a 100% decision.
2. I just got home from all you can eat Korean BBQ and all you can drink, so I have the temporary bravado to stake my claim.
3. It just makes more sense.
4. Zombies are cooler than vampires.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 09:55 AM
Here is my reasoning (with no offense intended):

1.Someone needs to make a stand and come out with a 100% decision.
2. I just got home from all you can eat Korean BBQ and all you can drink, so I have the temporary bravado to stake my claim.
3. It just makes more sense.
4. Zombies are cooler than vampires.

1. Only a dev can do that.
2. Nice.
3. It does make more sense to me too, but it doesn't mean it's true.
4. They are indeed!

dogmod
05-25-2013, 10:01 AM
1. Only a dev can do that.
2. Nice.
3. It does make more sense to me too, but it doesn't mean it's true.
4. They are indeed!

His points were a stepwise sequence leading up to point 4... a "joke".. not a retort to any previous points in the discussion...

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 10:16 AM
So I'm still wondering why it can't be both. The zombie deals fatal damage and you get the troop as a zombie, it still died due to the fatal damage, I mean you have to die to zombify, so you still get the vampire 2/2 token creature both effects should be applicable.

Autzen
05-25-2013, 10:43 AM
Just from what we have seen so far, I don't think that a single card could generate two "token cards" unless it explicitly says to. I could be very wrong though :D

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 12:14 PM
Just from what we have seen so far, I don't think that a single card could generate two "token cards" unless it explicitly says to. I could be very wrong though :D

But it is not a single card generating two tokens it is two tokens being generated by the combined effects of two different cards that both have death/fatal damage triggers on them. One opposing troop dies, but the two cards could in theory activate separately and generate one token each for the opposing troop that dealt fatal damage and died.

Autzen
05-25-2013, 12:42 PM
The thing is, the wording is "Transform this card". And with the mechanics we've seen with buff spells etc, it actually changes the card itself, not pulls new ones out of thin air. That's what makes me think it won't generate two separate "token cards".

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 12:46 PM
The thing is, the wording is "Transform this card". And with the mechanics we've seen with buff spells etc, it actually changes the card itself, not pulls new ones out of thin air. That's what makes me think it won't generate two separate "token cards".

Well the Vampire King creates a Vampire 2/2 flyer which has actually been shown in the spoilers, so the card from the Vampire King doesn't actually give you your opponents card as a vampire and does create a token

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=278979495572949&set=pb.217889215015311.-2207520000.1369511077.&type=3&theater

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 12:55 PM
Well the Vampire King creates a Vampire 2/2 flyer which has actually been shown in the spoilers, so the card from the Vampire King doesn't actually give you your opponents card as a vampire and does create a token

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=278979495572949&set=pb.217889215015311.-2207520000.1369511077.&type=3&theater

It's not actually a token but a card(not removed from play after bounced, killed, etc). But yes, Infected Zombie's effect transforms your opponent's troop, while Vampire King's effect creates a new card(opponent's troop that died still goes to the graveyard).

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 01:00 PM
It's not actually a token but a card(not removed from play after bounced, killed, etc). But yes, Infected Zombie's effect transforms your opponent's troop, while Vampire King's effect creates a new card(opponent's troop that died still goes to the graveyard).

Vampire King says dies, it doesn't say anything about the card having to go to the graveyard/discard pile, heck in theory if you killed a troop with a card that also voided it Vampire King should still work, hence why it should still work with Infected Zombie.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 01:07 PM
Vampire King says dies, it doesn't say anything about the card having to go to the graveyard/discard pile, heck in theory if you killed a troop with a card that also voided it Vampire King should still work, hence why it should still work with Infected Zombie.

From my experience, dies means goes from play into the graveyard, at least that's what it means in MtG. And what I mean by "killed" is "goes from play into the graveyard". Sorry if you misunderstood me.

And if a card said for example "Destroy target troop, then void it" I don't see a reason for the Vampire King not to work.

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 03:08 PM
Vampire King transforms, can't you read?

There are instances of "this troop/that troop" that refer to different cards, here's the text and how it is to be interpreted.



Flying

When an opposing troop dies, if this troop (vampire king) is in play (to prevent brokenness with Extinction), transform that troop (the one that died) into a Vampire (2/2 chick) and put it into play under your control.


~

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 03:14 PM
Vampire King transforms, can't you read?

There are instances of "this troop/that troop" that refer to different cards, here's the text and how it is to be interpreted.



~

As it turns out I can't... So far I've read the card as "when an opposing troop dies, put a vampire into play under your control"...

Autzen
05-25-2013, 06:18 PM
Yeah, that's exactly why I'm curious about this. It's the "transform" portion of the mechanic. I'm starting to lean towards both actions going on the stack with the owner choosing the order.

wallofomens
05-25-2013, 06:21 PM
Yeah, that's exactly why I'm curious about this. It's the "transform" portion of the mechanic. I'm starting to lean towards both actions going on the stack with the owner choosing the order.

If there is no difference between "has been dealt fatal damage" and "dies" than that is probably the case.

maniza
05-25-2013, 08:54 PM
man zombie decks are so goin to rule!!