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Lesheer
05-25-2013, 12:29 AM
Hi guys!

Will there be mana screw/mana flood in Hex?

I really, REALLY hate mana screw - it's the prime reason I quit playing Mtg.

Lesh

Note: edit to change burn to screw...

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 12:31 AM
No, you don't prep or tap your resources, you just have a total to pull from and cast from your resource total.

LeMazing
05-25-2013, 12:32 AM
1. Nope. From the videos we've seen, no one has lost life due to having resources left over in their pool at the end of their turn.

2. Magic got rid of mana burn in like, 6th edition? So it's safe for you to go back.

EDIT: Fact check, it was in the massives M10 rules change, not 6th.

Hibbert
05-25-2013, 12:40 AM
Since you compared mana burn to mana flood, do you actually mean mana screw, as in not getting any lands? Mana burn seems like an odd mechanic to quit a game over. Aside from when I mana burned myself as a de facto concede, I hardly remember mana burn being a big part of the game. And like others have pointed out, mana burn is long gone.

Resource screw and resource flood are possible in Hex, though they are mitigated a bit. The threshold system helps a bit with multi-color decks in terms of resource screw. The charge system helps with resource flood.

Fomies
05-25-2013, 01:18 AM
I don't think anyone ever cared about mana burn so I'm guessing the OP was talking about mana screw and just didn't know the made up term players came up with.

Mana screw is when you just don't have enough resources or possibly the correct kinds of resources to play your deck so you have to sit there turn after turn watching your foe have fun and pull ahead while you start discarding your cards. It's really frustrating and I can easily see a player quitting if it keeps happening to them. Hex will have this feature although there will be some built in ways to mitigate the worst effects. The reasons they have it is tricky to explain and I don't think I can do them justice but the most important reason is that it make the game more fun to play on average.

The designers of Hex have likely tried several ways of dealing with resources before settling on what they did but I wish they would have allowed us to play any card in our hand as a "colorless" resource that didn't charge the champion's power. Of course this would have made a very different game, but at least in theory it sounds like it might have been fun especially if they "borrowed" the ambush mechanic from Spoils. It allowed you to play a spell with ambush face down as a resource then when you got attacked you could flip it up for what ever it's effect was but it would stop being a resource. It might sound powerful but destroying your own mana base over and over will lose you the game.

Lesheer
05-25-2013, 01:27 AM
Sorry guys, I ment mana SCREW, not burn. Duh :(

Lesheer
05-25-2013, 01:35 AM
I don't think anyone ever cared about mana burn so I'm guessing the OP was talking about mana screw and just didn't know the made up term players came up with.

Mana screw is when you just don't have enough resources or possibly the correct kinds of resources to play your deck so you have to sit there turn after turn watching your foe have fun and pull ahead while you start discarding your cards. It's really frustrating and I can easily see a player quitting if it keeps happening to them. Hex will have this feature although there will be some built in ways to mitigate the worst effects. The reasons they have it is tricky to explain and I don't think I can do them justice but the most important reason is that it make the game more fun to play on average.

The designers of Hex have likely tried several ways of dealing with resources before settling on what they did but I wish they would have allowed us to play any card in our hand as a "colorless" resource that didn't charge the champion's power. Of course this would have made a very different game, but at least in theory it sounds like it might have been fun especially if they "borrowed" the ambush mechanic from Spoils. It allowed you to play a spell with ambush face down as a resource then when you got attacked you could flip it up for what ever it's effect was but it would stop being a resource. It might sound powerful but destroying your own mana base over and over will lose you the game.

This concerns me a bit. In a digital TCG I feel mana screw should be non-existent. In Mtg, for instance, they could have easily implemented a mechanic that spread the lands evenly throughout the deck, but they would not since it is also a physical TCG.
Hex, though, doesnt have such limitations and can avoid it completely.

There's nothing more annoying than losing a match simply because you didn't get to use your cards :(

RoyalNightGuard
05-25-2013, 01:40 AM
I think it's somewhat better because resources have a significant second purpose, charging your champion. This means that you can put more resource cards than you need in your deck, reducing the chance of mana screw without quite so bad an effect on mana flood. Statistically they will still happen on occasion, just much less so.

MasterPlan
05-25-2013, 02:07 AM
This concerns me a bit. In a digital TCG I feel mana screw should be non-existent. In Mtg, for instance, they could have easily implemented a mechanic that spread the lands evenly throughout the deck, but they would not since it is also a physical TCG.
Hex, though, doesnt have such limitations and can avoid it completely.

There's nothing more annoying than losing a match simply because you didn't get to use your cards :(

Evenly spacing lands throughout the deck is a feature I hope never gets implemented. While getting mana screwed sucks, making decks even less random on resource generation would just take some of the soul out of the game. You may as well just say everyone builds a resource each turn and remove lands altogether.

volkmar77
05-25-2013, 02:13 AM
Assuming you mean mana screw and not mana burn (see above posts for the difference), Hex has both screw and flood, but it has some mitigating features.

For one, creatures do not require resources of a certain color to play, but just need you to have threshold. A simple example: let's say you have a 2 red mana card in Magic. To play this card, you need to tap two mountains (or equivalent), so if you have 2 of such cards and just 2 mountains, you cannot play both.

Each resource in HEX does 3 things, give you 1 resource, give you 1 threshold of some color and give your Champion 1 charge. The same card would have a threshold of 2 red (ruby? blood?, whatever). As long as you have 2 red threshold, you can play the card by using 2 resources of any type. So assuming you have 4 resources (2 red and 2 blue), you could play 2 of those cards, because threshold does not go away.

Here is where flood mitigation comes in, even if you gets only resources, those resources charge your Champion, so you will be able to at least use your Champion charge power.

Neither of these mitigations will remove mana screw and mana flood, which has caused heavy discussions in the forums :D

Lesheer
05-25-2013, 02:42 AM
Evenly spacing lands throughout the deck is a feature I hope never gets implemented. While getting mana screwed sucks, making decks even less random on resource generation would just take some of the soul out of the game. You may as well just say everyone builds a resource each turn and remove lands altogether.

Yes to the last part. That is similar to how it is implemented in f.ex. Might and Magic: Duel of Champions and Order & Chaos: Duels. I really like that.

Lesheer
05-25-2013, 02:45 AM
Assuming you mean mana screw and not mana burn (see above posts for the difference), Hex has both screw and flood, but it has some mitigating features.

For one, creatures do not require resources of a certain color to play, but just need you to have threshold. A simple example: let's say you have a 2 red mana card in Magic. To play this card, you need to tap two mountains (or equivalent), so if you have 2 of such cards and just 2 mountains, you cannot play both.

Each resource in HEX does 3 things, give you 1 resource, give you 1 threshold of some color and give your Champion 1 charge. The same card would have a threshold of 2 red (ruby? blood?, whatever). As long as you have 2 red threshold, you can play the card by using 2 resources of any type. So assuming you have 4 resources (2 red and 2 blue), you could play 2 of those cards, because threshold does not go away.

Here is where flood mitigation comes in, even if you gets only resources, those resources charge your Champion, so you will be able to at least use your Champion charge power.

Neither of these mitigations will remove mana screw and mana flood, which has caused heavy discussions in the forums :D

Thanks for the explanation Volkmar. While it sounds a bit better than in Mtg I have a bad feeling about it. Playing f.ex. 5 matches in a tournament I am usually guaranteed to get either screwed or flooded in one of the matches. Bleh!

Hexmage
05-25-2013, 04:37 AM
You will still get mana screwed and or flooded in this game. Mana flood is just going to be less of a problem because of charge abilities. Mana screw can only be fixed by 2 ways, build your deck in such a way that mana screw is less common (aka play more sources) or mulligan better keeping hands with 1 source is a trap.

Kroan
05-25-2013, 05:44 AM
Despite what most "new" (you could read new as inexperienced) player think, the "downsides" of having a resource system like Magic or Hex is actually an upside to make the game itself more diverse and give the developers more room to create different kind of cards.

Jugan
05-25-2013, 06:04 AM
Random chance in a card game? Blasphemy!

EntropyBall
05-25-2013, 07:05 AM
Random chance in a card game? Blasphemy!

Yeah, they should implement a dice roll to see how much life you start with. Random chance FTW!

Also, this topic has been talked about quite a bit in this thread: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23100.

Travis
05-25-2013, 07:45 AM
Resource drought / Resource Flood are good for the game. They will happen less in this game then Magic due to the threshold mechanic.

Having resources pre-set in your deck really limits what you play and how you play. If I wanna play an aggressive deck that only needs a small amount of resources to run and I know a land is coming every 3rd turn then it limits what I can. Also if players have the same number of resources at every step of the game there will be very little variety in what is played. You would just play the best card in every slot at each particular segment of resource jump.

1. Having the correct number of resources in your deck for it to function is part of deck construction. There is a bit of an art to it and getting the mat right is a challenge sometimes. Like most games with some randomness to them, probability comes into play and you still can't avoid issues. For new players, I am sure their AIDA will help you with ratios.

2. Having the possibility for a bad player to beat a good player is good for the game. Occasionally, (some player's would say every time they lose) a better player will lose a round to a worse player due to resource flood/drought. This is a good thing for the game because it gives less skilled players a better chance of victory. Having more player's in the game is good. Like all games there will be varying levels of skill. If this game was more like chess with no randomness at all, it would draw well early and then fade quickly. After people realized that they were not top tier and couldn't hope to beat the top tier they would stop playing. Starcraft is a bit like that. Some people play at a very high level and some people don't. It doesn't make for as inclusive a tournament experience as it could.

3. Ego protection - Some people can't accept that they lost due to play errors. They can say they were limited by resources and that's why they lost. It's a very easy out and takes no self reflection. In some cases people will give up when they are limited by resources even though they could have won if they tried.

4. Ego inflation - Sometimes you are limited by resources and play the pants off your deck and win. Is there any better feeling?

5. You probably should have taken a mulligan in the first place - If you get affected regularly by your resources and you know that your math is correct for your deck and its costs then your probably not good at taking a mulligan. Knowing when to mulligan is also a skill that needs to be developed.

Just some things to consider when your thinking about the issue with resource limitations. In my experience, most of the time people have issues with mana it is due to a couple of factors that can be controlled by them. Shuffling is very important in physical games and is often times overlooked. In Hex this won't be an issue. Not playing enough games could also make it feel like you get flooded or drought often. It is math after all. If your math is correct and mechanically your shuffling is correct it shouldn't happen very often. I guess you could chalk it up to your own personal run of bad luck. That will only get worse if you believe in such a thing.

So having a resources issues is a good thing for a game. It adds variety and variety is important for attracting large amounts of players.

stiii
05-25-2013, 10:41 AM
Despite what most "new" (you could read new as inexperienced) player think, the "downsides" of having a resource system like Magic or Hex is actually an upside to make the game itself more diverse and give the developers more room to create different kind of cards.

It really isn't

It gives those new players a chance to beat the better players. This might be worth doing but it doesn't lead to better games.

Turtlewing
05-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Manna flood/screw aren't themselves very desirable. However they are a nessesary consequence of things that are desirable.

The resource system is used to balance cards (more powerful cards cost more making them harder to play), to moderate pacing (adding resources during play means cards star week and get stronger), and to add diversity of play style (most decks are one or two color)

Decks are shuffled and hand size limited to add randomness, which promotes diversity of play styles and makes the game more forgiving of a mismatch.

In order to eliminate manna flood/screw you need to give up one or more of those things. And given how much good deck construction and a mulligan rule can mitigate manna screw/flood, it's difficult to make a good argument for what you should get rid of.

Lazybum
05-25-2013, 11:10 AM
forgive me if this has been said but in the video they did on twitch of blood deck (blood deck) vs the red/white human deck the gu playing the human deck got hosed the first game because of lack of resources, so it can happen its part of the randomness.

Kroan
05-25-2013, 11:43 AM
It really isn't It really is. I won't give you arguments, since you didn't bother to give any either ;)

jai151
05-25-2013, 11:44 AM
I've been checking out the iOS beta of Solforge. It's set up so that there is no resource system, instead you can play any two cards a turn.

I hate it.

Those saying you don't need randomness on the resource side are so very wrong, it takes so much away from the game. In playing a game without resources, half the strategy of deckbuilding is gone, a major source of balance is gone, and the game just ends up feeling bland.

MugenMusou
05-25-2013, 01:58 PM
I've been checking out the iOS beta of Solforge. It's set up so that there is no resource system, instead you can play any two cards a turn.

I hate it.

Those saying you don't need randomness on the resource side are so very wrong, it takes so much away from the game. In playing a game without resources, half the strategy of deckbuilding is gone, a major source of balance is gone, and the game just ends up feeling bland.

Resource system adds depth and its own mechanics, but does not have to be completely random/luck based. Solforge like system is basically no resource management at all (period). The game I currently love playing has automatic resource build up i.e. +1 every turn, this is also no resource system. I agree takes away some part of fun.

But there are systems that utilize resource system yet still takes away randomness. The game called Carte does that, and I heard WOW TCG does the similar but never played the latter. Essentially, you have resource cards like HEX but you can sacrifice any of your card to add to resource pool in an event you don't have resource card in your hand. Obviously, there are drawbacks using sacrifice instead of resource system. But this is strategic decison the player makes, and if you are lucky and keep getting resource card right timing, you still get a better hand overall but just not full blown mana screw occur in this system.

stiii
05-25-2013, 02:17 PM
It really is. I won't give you arguments, since you didn't bother to give any either ;)

I mean this cuts both ways your first post didn't give any examples either. It also had the implied insult of new players think this but us more experienced players know better.

Mana screw/flood creates a negative play experience. How much more argument do you need?

For example what types of cards can you have in magic but not in wow tcg?

jai151
05-25-2013, 02:20 PM
Resource system adds depth and its own mechanics, but does not have to be completely random/luck based. Solforge like system is basically no resource management at all (period). The game I currently love playing has automatic resource build up i.e. +1 every turn, this is also no resource system. I agree takes away some part of fun.

But there are systems that utilize resource system yet still takes away randomness. The game called Carte does that, and I heard WOW TCG does the similar but never played the latter. Essentially, you have resource cards like HEX but you can sacrifice any of your card to add to resource pool in an event you don't have resource card in your hand. Obviously, there are drawbacks using sacrifice instead of resource system. But this is strategic decison the player makes, and if you are lucky and keep getting resource card right timing, you still get a better hand overall but just not full blown mana screw occur in this system.

That system, discard to gain resources, also has its drawbacks. Chief among them is you can't use "discard" as a trigger effect.

And madness, as broken as it was, is still one of my favorite mechanics ever.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 02:23 PM
Honestly I like having mana screw/flood. It makes the game more than just "play all your cards all the time." And I like how it makes you adapt to the situation and things like that help you get a better feel for your cards, although eventually people will just flat out lose games because of it. But it happens to everyone, and I don't really like the feel of the alternatives right now either.

Also, jai, I don't think it is the same thing as discarding, so you could still have discard effects.

MugenMusou
05-25-2013, 02:53 PM
@jai151,

I'm not sure if you quite got your comment about discard. The system I experienced basically had a special phase at the beginning of player's turn where you essentially discard either regular card or resource card or nothing. If you use resource card, then you get a bonus which are immediate increase in the resource total point on that turn PLUS you get to draw a card i.e. your hand size don't decrease because of resource build up. But if you sacrifice non-resource card, you won't get the resource build up until subsequent turn i.e. one turn behind and you won't get to draw a extra card i.e. your hand size shrinks.


@Talreth,

Yeah I think many people are on your side as well as opposite. Personally, I like less randomness but Ben Stoll likes mana screw (based on the interview), and so is my friend who plays Magic. Just as you said, they believe it adds another layer of variation to each game even with the same deck.

I believe its just matter of preference. At this point, we won't see change in the fundamental resource system. But may be they can have some cards or Champion's abilities to take care of these. So ones who like alternative less lack based resource system can use those champion or include the card(s). Whereas, others who likes luck based system just keep playing the way it is. So everyone become happy.

stiii
05-25-2013, 03:03 PM
I'd be pretty happy if they just had a few champs that help prevent screw/flood but currently none of the PvE ones really do very much.

Kroan
05-25-2013, 03:16 PM
I mean this cuts both ways your first post didn't give any examples either. It also had the implied insult of new players think this but us more experienced players know better.

Mana screw/flood creates a negative play experience. How much more argument do you need?

For example what types of cards can you have in magic but not in wow tcg? I think you misunderstand design space. If you have no color-requirements, then all cards are basically colorless spells. If that is true you can always cast your 2-drop, 3-drop, ect. You will also always play the best 2-drop, 3-drop, ect., making it harder and harder to come up with new cards that are playable. Decks will become less and less intresting the more cards are designed, since they'll all run the best cards (why not? you can cast them all anyway without any kind of penalty). Quite soon the game will become only about who will draw the perfect curve instead of actually having a deck-building part.

Also a lot of newer players blame them losing a game of magic to "getting manascrewed" or "drawing only lands" when in truth the game was lost due to other reasons. It's always easy to blame "the game" then yourself I guess.

But don't take my word for it. Here is an article from Mark Rosewarder (Lead Designer Magic) going through the resource system. It basically gives you 7 great points why the resource system is as it is (for magic) and why cryptozoic went for a similiar system instead of the one used in WoW TCG;
https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/145

stiii
05-25-2013, 04:15 PM
I think you misunderstand design space. If you have no color-requirements, then all cards are basically colorless spells. If that is true you can always cast your 2-drop, 3-drop, ect. You will also always play the best 2-drop, 3-drop, ect., making it harder and harder to come up with new cards that are playable. Decks will become less and less intresting the more cards are designed, since they'll all run the best cards (why not? you can cast them all anyway without any kind of penalty). Quite soon the game will become only about who will draw the perfect curve instead of actually having a deck-building part.

Also a lot of newer players blame them losing a game of magic to "getting manascrewed" or "drawing only lands" when in truth the game was lost due to other reasons. It's always easy to blame "the game" then yourself I guess.

But don't take my word for it. Here is an article from Mark Rosewarder (Lead Designer Magic) going through the resource system. It basically gives you 7 great points why the resource system is as it is (for magic) and why cryptozoic went for a similiar system instead of the one used in WoW TCG;
https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/145

And you really need to stop talking down to me so much. You keep talking about new players. I am not a new player.

You imply you know how the wow tcg system works but then talk about it restricting design space. There are loads of reasons in wow why there isn't just one best 2/3 drop. Where did I say anything about colour requirements anyway? Wow has them anyway. You seem to have no idea how wow tcg works at all so you should probably stop using it in examples.

Rosewater is hardly going to say magic's resource system is old and outdated, these other games do it better is he?


You seem to be saying there is no middle ground either we use magic's system or a blank system where everyone can just play any cards in any deck and that is just not the case.

Travis
05-25-2013, 04:22 PM
Most of the systems you guys have mentioned just don't feel like your getting a drawback but you are. In WOW tcg sure you can play any card down instead of a resource so it doesn't immediately feel like your behind. However, you still have to use a card you wanted to play instead of using as a resource and that's a loss. On top of that, if your opponent just plays a quest (WOW TCG's form of land) they also get whatever the benefit of completing the quest is and they don't lose a card as a resource.

The other resource system where you get a resource each turn but if you have a specific resource you get a benefit is the same thing. Your still behind if you don't play the resource even if its a small benefit.

The other game where everyone gets a resource and you just play cards doesn't sound solid either. So your just constantly playing a card that costs one more each turn most of the time. Vs sorta suffered from that. The downside is that you can't design anything like Ball Lightning. Your cards become very vanilla and is as such. Your 1 drops are 1/1, 2 drops are 2/2. It feels like you don't need to keep track of resources just the turn number at that point.

If you want to look at a solid resource system check out Spoils the TCG. The original system for that game was basically flawless. The problem, the best player always won that game. Sure there were bad draws from time to time but very rarely did the worse player win in Spoils. I am not by any means saying that it's a good game or a bad game because of it. It was just the most perfect resource system for a tcg if you wanted skill and a lack of randomness, while still having to utilize a resource system.

stiii
05-25-2013, 04:31 PM
The goal isn't to get some perfect system it is just to get a better system. I've played a lot of high level mtg and wow and I don't really think it is very close. You get to pick between,

mtg: some games one player just does nothing due to flood/screw and dies (this is rare but it is a very negative play experience)

wow: going first is a bigger edge. New players don'r like to row their cards (apparently)

The thing is the wow problems are so much more mild than the mtg one where you just can't do anything. You can get exciting games where a player gets slightly screwed and has to play their way out but a bunch of minor benefits doesn't out weight the games where you just can't do anything.

Turtlewing
05-25-2013, 05:01 PM
The problem with the WoWtcg system as I understand it is that it doesn't solve the core issue (games lost due to lack of reasourses) it just makes it your fault when it happens and forces painful choices during the game (which card to I give up for reasourses). In practice that's probably a worse play experience than the occasional "act of shuffler" that happens with Magic.

Wessex
05-25-2013, 05:15 PM
I have had infinitely worse play experiences in magic vs wow due to 'resourcing issues', and I've played a lot less magic.

Resourcing in WoW is harder although building a quest base isn't as hard as it is in magic. If players lose because they rowed X they should use that as a learning experience and analyse the situation for future growth. HEX can produce floods and screws, I think it's a worse play experience but it has other benefits that magic doesn't (threshold, decent digital ui).

Yasi
05-25-2013, 05:29 PM
My past experience with Mana Burn or similar mechanics were terrible, so I don't want it in Hex either.

funktion
05-25-2013, 05:58 PM
Yes there will be mana drought, but mana flood will not be as big an issue. Having variance adds to the depth of the game. If you don't like variance, I suggest you play chess, it has none.

stiii
05-25-2013, 06:00 PM
The problem with the WoWtcg system as I understand it is that it doesn't solve the core issue (games lost due to lack of reasourses) it just makes it your fault when it happens and forces painful choices during the game (which card to I give up for reasourses). In practice that's probably a worse play experience than the occasional "act of shuffler" that happens with Magic.

As I understand it + probably worse.

No one has ever lost a wow game due to lack of resources it is just straight up impossible. Maybe you mean something different but can't really articulate it because you have never played wow?

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:01 PM
Hi guys!

Will there be mana screw/mana flood in Hex?

I really, REALLY hate mana screw - it's the prime reason I quit playing Mtg.

Lesh

Note: edit to change burn to screw...


Unfortunately, resources are still in your deck. I was really hoping for a more MTG tactics style of obtaining resources.
You will still have bad games with all lands or no lands even with the perfect ratio.

stiii
05-25-2013, 06:01 PM
Yes there will be mana drought, but mana flood will not be as big an issue. Having variance adds to the depth of the game. If you don't like variance, I suggest you play chess, it has none.

yu gi oh has way more variance maybe you should play that instead if variance is so great?

Yasi
05-25-2013, 06:04 PM
Maybe he should eat a rock too because there's so much variance in that. That will show him.

Ghost
05-26-2013, 02:26 AM
For example what types of cards can you have in magic but not in wow tcg?

http://i.imgur.com/1lRDoRy.jpg

stiii
05-26-2013, 10:04 AM
http://i.imgur.com/1lRDoRy.jpg

So locations or dual class heroes then? Depending if you want something that allows you to play two colour/classes or just a card that sits in play providing a permanent effect Or I could just argue you don't need dual lands in wow because you can always play all your cards anyway. Duals are good for the very reason they reduce mana screw

stiii
05-26-2013, 10:06 AM
Maybe he should eat a rock too because there's so much variance in that. That will show him.

I have no clue if you are agreeing or disagreeing.

jai151
05-26-2013, 10:27 AM
I have no clue if you are agreeing or disagreeing.

Note the green sans. That is our resident troll. Most have just ignored him.

Turtlewing
05-26-2013, 12:25 PM
As I understand it + probably worse.

No one has ever lost a wow game due to lack of resources it is just straight up impossible. Maybe you mean something different but can't really articulate it because you have never played wow?

Instead every single turn you have to choose what card to use as a reasourse. That can lead to analysis paralysis in new players, can still result in you not being able to play a card (only card I hand and you can't afford it), and can feel similar to being hit with a discard effect every turn.

The regular play experience is worse.

In magic when you get mana screwed you can just scoop and start a new game, and when you don't get mana screwed you don't have to make hard choices just to get your resources in play.

stiii
05-26-2013, 12:34 PM
Instead every single turn you have to choose what card to use as a reasourse. That can lead to analysis paralysis in new players, can still result in you not being able to play a card (only card I hand and you can't afford it), and can feel similar to being hit with a discard effect every turn.

The regular play experience is worse.

In magic when you get mana screwed you can just scoop and start a new game, and when you don't get mana screwed you don't have to make hard choices just to get your resources in play.

I notice you didn't address the fact you have never played this game in your life. How could you possible know the regular play experience is worse?

If winning the game matters so little that you would just scoop when you get mana screwed you could also just row a random card from your hand each turn. If winning matters so little then why worry over hard choices in the first place? You could also easily extend this to the fact that many new player struggle to build a mana base for their deck in the first place, so maybe we should just give them a resource each turn for free and remove the hard choice in building their deck.

These threads are full of people commenting of things they don't even slightly understand, is it really that hard to not comment on things you don't have a clue about?

stiii
05-26-2013, 12:35 PM
Note the green sans. That is our resident troll. Most have just ignored him.

Sadly I have ignored him but other people told me he was eating rocks and foolishly I wanted to know what it was about.

Turtlewing
05-26-2013, 01:26 PM
I notice you didn't address the fact you have never played this game in your life. How could you possible know the regular play experience is worse?

I've played other games with similar mechanics, and not been all that impressed by them.

They solve one problem but create others. At best it's a lateral move, but for casual play I'd back magic's system over WoW's.

stiii
05-26-2013, 01:34 PM
The problem with the WoWtcg system as I understand it is that it doesn't solve the core issue (games lost due to lack of reasourses) it just makes it your fault when it happens and forces painful choices during the game (which card to I give up for reasourses). In practice that's probably a worse play experience than the occasional "act of shuffler" that happens with Magic.

This makes me wonder what you consider similar. It is just not possible to lose a game of wow due lack of resources.

Kalius
05-26-2013, 04:27 PM
This makes me wonder what you consider similar. It is just not possible to lose a game of wow due lack of resources.

actually it is possible. Consider this situation. you and your opponent are having a rather even match, but they're answering your plays. You draw the one card that can save you, only card in hand, but you just don't have the resource to play it because you've been playing everything else and your opponent wins on their turn because you could not play it.

Scenario would be uncommon, but it's there, so yes, it's possible to lose in WoWTCG due to not having enough resources.

Turtlewing
05-26-2013, 04:46 PM
This makes me wonder what you consider similar. It is just not possible to lose a game of wow due lack of resources.
Sure it is.
All you have to do is play too many of your cards early to get behind the curve. Then draw a high cost card later that you can't play because you skipped a couple drops so you could play the cards instead of converting them to resources.

And players in the vast middle ground between knowing that risk and having enough foresight to reliably avoid it will spend a lot of effort agonizing over whether or not convert their cards to resources Every. Single. Game.

That's why I say the WoW system solves a one game in 20 problem by creating an always present annoyance. Personally I think that's a bad trade.

stiii
05-26-2013, 05:30 PM
As opposed to magic where you draw a high cost and can't cast it due to not having drawn enough lands? What exactly is the difference here? If you are trying to persuade me the magic system is better how is giving examples that happen more in magic then wow relevant?

You aren't forced to row cards in wow so all that happened is you had the option of playing them as resources if you wanted to. The "annoyance" in this case is giving players the option to avoid mana screw/flood.

stiii
05-26-2013, 05:38 PM
Also if players struggle so much with options why isn't Hex simplifying other areas? In draft you have to pick from 15-2 cards over and over. Same thing with picking resources to put in your deck in the first place, lots of new players struggle to figure out how many of each colour they need even for a two colour deck.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 05:40 PM
I'm still firmly in the "this is a matter of preference" category. I've never seen a perfect resource system, and I've played quite a lot of TCG's. This one is basically as good as any other. And they have said they chose it because they feel it allows them to use a greater card variety with a wider power level and let them tweak the cards easier. I do not claim to know why that is true, but I take them at their word on the matter. I look forward to this game with the resource system they have developed.

Shivdaddy
05-26-2013, 06:04 PM
MTG is the best TCG out there. So they copied their system and gave it a slight tweak to help make the game easier. Screw/flood is part of the game. Only bad/ignorant/new players want the game made even easier.

Kalius
05-26-2013, 06:08 PM
MTG is the best TCG out there. So they copied their system and gave it a slight tweak to help make the game easier. Screw/flood is part of the game. Only bad/ignorant/new players want the game made even easier.

"best" is relative to personal tastes.

Most successful, sure, can't argue that.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:20 PM
MTG is the best TCG out there. So they copied their system and gave it a slight tweak to help make the game easier. Screw/flood is part of the game. Only bad/ignorant/new players want the game made even easier.

In PvP how is it even possible for it to be easier? I guess you might mean more random? By this logic adding the threshold system was a bad thing because whatever this making the game easier thing is, it is bad.

Saying screw/flood is part of the game is meaningless, it is part of magic it doesn't have to be part of any new game. You need to justify why it is needed.

Also I don't really appreciate being called ignorant because I disagree with you. It is pretty feeble to attack the other side with your first post on something.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:21 PM
I'm still firmly in the "this is a matter of preference" category. I've never seen a perfect resource system, and I've played quite a lot of TCG's. This one is basically as good as any other. And they have said they chose it because they feel it allows them to use a greater card variety with a wider power level and let them tweak the cards easier. I do not claim to know why that is true, but I take them at their word on the matter. I look forward to this game with the resource system they have developed.

It just seems lazy to me magic does well might as well just copy it, this system is good enough.

Facilier
05-26-2013, 06:25 PM
Well, they evolved the resource base from the most resilient card game, rather than just copy it.

I think the Hex system is pretty good, just wish the first mulligan was free (draw back up to 7), to help alleviate the mana screw/flood issues.

Also would like to see the graphical representation be perhaps more... Robust. The small coloured dots with a massive number smacked on top of them seems a bit clumsy.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 06:29 PM
Well, they evolved the resource base from the most resilient card game, rather than just copy it.

I think the Hex system is pretty good, just wish the first mulligan was free (draw back up to 7), to help alleviate the mana screw/flood issues.

Also would like to see the graphical representation be perhaps more... Robust. The small coloured dots with a massive number smacked on top of them seems a bit clumsy.

Agreed, I am sure that will be corrected though. Hoping it's just a programmer art situation.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:30 PM
I think the changes from mtg are tiny and make almost no difference. If they made charge powers more powerful then it would be fine. But currently if you get flooded you might get a 0/1 and threshold only matters if you want to cast multiple spells in the same turn. without any dual lands your mana will be worse than it is in a mtg deck.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 06:33 PM
The charge powers are honestly the smallest change, the threshold system is what I believe he was referring to. The fact that all mana is basically colorless you just need a certain amount of threshold to cast the card. It's actually a very interesting change, and I'm pretty sure where the "balancing" they were talking about comes in. The ability to increase both threshold requirements and straight up mana cost.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 06:41 PM
As an example. if you have a 7 cost 2 ruby threshold card, It would only take 2 ruby resources and any 5 other colors. I imagine that card would be less powerful than a 7 cost 5 ruby threshold, or at least more ruby thematic? It forces you to make more interesting decisions in your deck construction. it also makes running a rainbow deck significantly easier, since you could end up having large creatures with low thresholds so it doesn't matter if you haven't been pulling its color.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:41 PM
Unless I very much misunderstand how threshold work it seem like it makes almost no difference. It only matters when you want to cast two spells in a turn, and then only if both the spells are from the colour you have drawn less mana sources of.

Shivdaddy
05-26-2013, 06:42 PM
In PvP how is it even possible for it to be easier? I guess you might mean more random? By this logic adding the threshold system was a bad thing because whatever this making the game easier thing is, it is bad.

Saying screw/flood is part of the game is meaningless, it is part of magic it doesn't have to be part of any new game. You need to justify why it is needed.

Also I don't really appreciate being called ignorant because I disagree with you. It is pretty feeble to attack the other side with your first post on something.


Threshold system is what is making the resource system easier than MTGs. They do not want to straight copy and paste MTGs system so they made a slight tweak.

It IS PART of the game now, rules are already made. MTG is the most successful tcg by far, good idea to keep pretty close to it.

Maybe ignorant is a little strong, but in my experience with MTGO ignorant does seem to share that opinion with you and others.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:43 PM
As an example. if you have a 7 cost 2 ruby threshold card, It would only take 2 ruby resources and any 5 other colors. I imagine that card would be less powerful than a 7 cost 5 ruby threshold, or at least more ruby thematic? It forces you to make more interesting decisions in your deck construction. it also makes running a rainbow deck significantly easier, since you could end up having large creatures with low thresholds so it doesn't matter if you haven't been pulling its color.

Like the costs you mentioned would be exactly the same as magic cards.

stiii
05-26-2013, 06:47 PM
Threshold system is what is making the resource system easier than MTGs. They do not want to straight copy and paste MTGs system so they made a slight tweak.

It IS PART of the game now, rules are already made. MTG is the most successful tcg by far, good idea to keep pretty close to it.

Maybe ignorant is a little strong, but in my experience with MTGO ignorant does seem to share that opinion with you and others.

Like I've said I don't think threshold really helps at all (almost certainly while you were writing this so this is just a suggestion to read what I've said above rather than complaining you didn't read it)

Saying it is part of the game still isn't a defence or any reason why it is a good system. Mtg was the first TCG it doing well doesn't really support its system being perfect, given that we are talking about other only slightly different systems.

It is hardly my fault if idiots agree with me. That doesn't make me wrong. This is a pretty common theme you haven't even slightly addressed why this system is better.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 06:51 PM
When I played magic there were very few good cards that took 1 or 2 of a color and had a large colorless cost. I suppose that could have changed? Like I said though, the entire discussion is irrelevant, they've balanced all the cards to this system, they have spent 2 years designing around this system, it's the system they will use. I'm sorry you don't like it. Most everyone else does. There's practical reasons for using a similar system to magic as well. Magic is the game the pros play, it is the most popular tcg in the world. They have the chance to draw a vastly larger player base because people can just jump in if they have any idea how magic works. That's a smart move in general.

Ghost
05-26-2013, 07:11 PM
When I played magic there were very few good cards that took 1 or 2 of a color and had a large colorless cost. I suppose that could have changed? Like I said though, the entire discussion is irrelevant, they've balanced all the cards to this system, they have spent 2 years designing around this system, it's the system they will use. I'm sorry you don't like it. Most everyone else does. There's practical reasons for using a similar system to magic as well. Magic is the game the pros play, it is the most popular tcg in the world. They have the chance to draw a vastly larger player base because people can just jump in if they have any idea how magic works. That's a smart move in general.

It makes me sad because I used to play Magic for many years (1994-2002). I know all about the gameplay of Magic and the implications of what its systems mean. I started playing new TCGs because they are more fun and better designed. I didn't want to play Magic anymore with so many other great choices out there. Seeing Cryptozoic go back and copy some of the worst parts of Magic for their new game just makes me angry because I was really excited about this game and lots of people are know are too. Hex looks like it has a lot of awesome things going for it. But the resource and attacking mechanics might just kill it for me. I would be playing Magic right now if that was what I wanted.

I have trouble seeing how anyone who has a love of card games and really wants to get invested in this hobby would be supporting Magics terrible systems. If you are a casual player and want a game where you can beat people better than you with little or no interaction and where you don't have to make any hard decisions then Magics system is great! You probably also aren't posting on this forum right now because you are casual. If you are one of the more dedicated TCG players and are posting on this forum - Why do you want shitty game mechanics in Hex??

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 07:15 PM
I honestly, don't think it's shitty. If it were shitty and that were the case rationally, so many people wouldn't play it. your version of it just cannot be true for it to still be so popular. There may very well be systems out there that eliminate the problems we're talking about. There are no systems that do not have some inherent flaws in them however, none of them are perfect. Crypto went for the system that worked best for them, tweaked it to work better for them and ran with it. I have faith in them from playing their other games. I know they can make excellent mechanics and balance things very well, and I am super excited for their take on this.

ForgedSol
05-26-2013, 07:34 PM
The threshold system will have the most impact in the early game, not the late game. General mana screw is still possible, but color screw is less likely. Say you have three 1 mana three 1 Diamond creatures in hand. You've already played your two Wild resources and some Wild cards on your first two turns. Turn three you draw a Diamond resource and now you can drop all three creatures on the board. If this was Forest, Forest, Plains in Magic, that couldn't happen.

Mid to late game isn't ignored because it also allows for resource destruction cards to not be as devastating, which will allow for a more balanced variety of cards. Reset my max mana to zero? If I draw any two mana I can cast any combination of 1 and 2 mana cards totaling two mana no matter what resources I draw because I still have my thresholds. Destroy one Blood threshold and mana while I had two Blood and two Ruby? I can't cast four mana worth of spells, but I can still cast multiple Blood spells as long as they only require nor threshold.

stiii
05-26-2013, 07:51 PM
When I played magic there were very few good cards that took 1 or 2 of a color and had a large colorless cost. I suppose that could have changed? Like I said though, the entire discussion is irrelevant, they've balanced all the cards to this system, they have spent 2 years designing around this system, it's the system they will use. I'm sorry you don't like it. Most everyone else does. There's practical reasons for using a similar system to magic as well. Magic is the game the pros play, it is the most popular tcg in the world. They have the chance to draw a vastly larger player base because people can just jump in if they have any idea how magic works. That's a smart move in general.

Everyone else likes it is rather subjective, what evidence do you have that this is true? People seem to love making statements with no basis.

The pro play magic because it has the best prize support, it is not an endorsement of the system. This is also rather ironic as you post suggests that because the pro play magic it is a better game. Therefore the pro's opinions matter more than other players. So as I am a magic pro my opinion is more important than yours, guess I'm right then?


I'm going to address the no magic cards with large colourless costs in a bigger post explaining how how threshold doesn't matter.

stiii
05-26-2013, 07:53 PM
The threshold system will have the most impact in the early game, not the late game. General mana screw is still possible, but color screw is less likely. Say you have three 1 mana three 1 Diamond creatures in hand. You've already played your two Wild resources and some Wild cards on your first two turns. Turn three you draw a Diamond resource and now you can drop all three creatures on the board. If this was Forest, Forest, Plains in Magic, that couldn't happen.

Mid to late game isn't ignored because it also allows for resource destruction cards to not be as devastating, which will allow for a more balanced variety of cards. Reset my max mana to zero? If I draw any two mana I can cast any combination of 1 and 2 mana cards totaling two mana no matter what resources I draw because I still have my thresholds. Destroy one Blood threshold and mana while I had two Blood and two Ruby? I can't cast four mana worth of spells, but I can still cast multiple Blood spells as long as they only require nor threshold.

Your example is true but rather misleading. This sort of thing pretty much never happens in magic, who has three one cost cards in hand or even in their deck. 95%+ of the time it makes no difference.

stiii
05-26-2013, 07:59 PM
You have RRBB so you can cast two RR or BB cards. In magic you could only cast one but you could still cast one of each. you also have to have no cast your BB card on turns 2/3 when you also had the resources.

The hex system never lets you cast spells you couldn't it just lets you cast them faster. Except in magic you don't have decks full of two cost spell from two different colours in the first place because it is too likely that it will cause mana issues. It doesn't really change much in hex you are still very likely to not have RR and BB it is just if you do get screwed you can recover a bit faster if you have exactly the right cards, lots of cheap hard to cast spells.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:00 PM
It's quite simple, I can walk into virtually any game shop and find people playing magic, I can see magic tournaments once or twice a week. Almost all of my friends still play magic just for fun. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing magic. I think most importantly there are people repeatedly winning magic tournaments, and magic games, which means skill is a very large factor. Do any amount of research you like. MTG is the biggest most successful TCG, it has repeated champions so "lesser skilled players" are not consistently winning magic tournaments.

Once again, this entire thread is a moot point, the resource system is set in stone already, it cannot change. I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

ForgedSol
05-26-2013, 08:04 PM
You mean like a Sligh deck or any of the various goblin decks and probably more than one white weenie deck over the years? And I'm sure there are other swarming strategies in Legacy like Zoo where that happened a lot.

But if you need more examples. Change what I said and put one 1 mana creature and one 2 mana creature both with 1 Diamond threshold each. Same thing. You play the one diamond resource and now you can play both cards even though you have two Wild and one Diamond threshold. Not possible in Magic. With two Wild and one Diamond on the board, turn 4 you draw a 2 Wild 2 Mana creature, a copy of a creature you already had in your hand and play a Diamond resource. Now if this was Magic, two Forest and two Plains wouldn't let you cast both creatures. But in Hex you can cast both just fine.

Hex's system changes a lot when it comes to color screw. Mana screw is still there, but multicolor decks will have a much easier time of it.

stiii
05-26-2013, 08:10 PM
It's quite simple, I can walk into virtually any game shop and find people playing magic, I can see magic tournaments once or twice a week. Almost all of my friends still play magic just for fun. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing magic. I think most importantly there are people repeatedly winning magic tournaments, and magic games, which means skill is a very large factor. Do any amount of research you like. MTG is the biggest most successful TCG, it has repeated champions so "lesser skilled players" are not consistently winning magic tournaments.

Once again, this entire thread is a moot point, the resource system is set in stone already, it cannot change. I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Maybe that is because you don't read my posts?

You keep saying things that are either not true or beside the point. You talk about research, how about you read my posts and reply to what I'm saying rather replying to something else entirely. Why are you bringing up magic being the most successful TCG like I said it wasn't?

You putting "lesser skilled player" in quotes is particularly absurd I didn't say that. In fact I said nothing like that!

I have said multiple times what they could do that is within the system they already have, it is hardly my fault you aren't replying to what I'm saying.

stiii
05-26-2013, 08:14 PM
You mean like a Sligh deck or any of the various goblin decks and probably more than one white weenie deck over the years? And I'm sure there are other swarming strategies in Legacy like Zoo where that happened a lot.

But if you need more examples. Change what I said and put one 1 mana creature and one 2 mana creature both with 1 Diamond threshold each. Same thing. You play the one diamond resource and now you can play both cards even though you have two Wild and one Diamond threshold. Not possible in Magic. With two Wild and one Diamond on the board, turn 4 you draw a 2 Wild 2 Mana creature, a copy of a creature you already had in your hand. Now if this was Magic, two Forest and two Plains wouldn't let you cast both creatures. But in Hex you can cast both just fine.

Hex's system changes a lot when it comes to color screw. Mana screw is still there, but multicolor decks will have a much easier time of it.

Sligh and WW are mono colour decks so they are terrible examples.

Zoo decks are at least more than one colour so they are a better example however in practise if you played them under hex rules I doubt you'd notice much difference. Their mana is already good enough to play their spells and when they can't it is due to missing a colour entirely.

There is also the issue that being unable to play both your two drops is hardly mana screwed. You just have to wait an extra turn.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:23 PM
R
2. Having the possibility for a bad player to beat a good player is good for the game. Occasionally, (some player's would say every time they lose) a better player will lose a round to a worse player due to resource flood/drought. This is a good thing for the game because it gives less skilled players a better chance of victory. Having more player's in the game is good. Like all games there will be varying levels of skill. If this game was more like chess with no randomness at all, it would draw well early and then fade quickly. After people realized that they were not top tier and couldn't hope to beat the top tier they would stop playing. Starcraft is a bit like that. Some people play at a very high level and some people don't. It doesn't make for as inclusive a tournament experience as it could.


You may not have said it, but it's an argument that has been made on multiple occasions in this thread


It really isn't

It gives those new players a chance to beat the better players. This might be worth doing but it doesn't lead to better games.

Which you then agreed with


Everyone else likes it is rather subjective, what evidence do you have that this is true? People seem to love making statements with no basis.

The pro play magic because it has the best prize support, it is not an endorsement of the system. This is also rather ironic as you post suggests that because the pro play magic it is a better game. Therefore the pro's opinions matter more than other players. So as I am a magic pro my opinion is more important than yours, guess I'm right then?


I'm going to address the no magic cards with large colourless costs in a bigger post explaining how how threshold doesn't matter.
You asked for evidence of my post on its popularity and the fact that if it were as flawed as you say, it wouldn't be so popular, your weak retort was that it was because there is prize support, but that is not true for people that aren't playing in tournaments, and there are always people not playing in tournaments pretty much anywhere you go.


What I am saying is irrelevant is the entire discussion because it cannot be changed, you've yet to clue me into what you're trying to accomplish here. Or even why you're backing the game at all? Are you backing the game?

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:24 PM
Hai stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii so I noticed a lot of your posts are just pointing out all of the problems with other people's posts and I'm sort of lazy so I was wondering if you could list out changes you've thought of that work within the current system since you're the only one I've seen who's smart enough about both.

ForgedSol
05-26-2013, 08:38 PM
Sligh and WW are mono colour decks so they are terrible examples.

Zoo decks are at least more than one colour so they are a better example however in practise if you played them under hex rules I doubt you'd notice much difference. Their mana is already good enough to play their spells and when they can't it is due to missing a colour entirely.

There is also the issue that being unable to play both your two drops is hardly mana screwed. You just have to wait an extra turn.

Okay, now let me generalize now that you get the idea. If you are playing a two color deck and all the cards in your deck are two threshold or less of whatever combination of colors. On turn two, if you have one of each resource, you can play any combination of spells worth up to two mana. If you have two of one resource and one of the other, you can now play any combination of cards in your decks that add up to three mana except for the two threshold spells of the color you only have one of. Once you hit two of both resources, you can now play any combination of spells in your deck that add up to four mana, and from that point on you can play any combination of spells that add up to the maximum amount of mana you can spend.

Same example except now your deck is heavily weighted towards one main color and one minor color, designed so your minor color spells only require one threshold. Once you hit two of your main color and one of your minor, for the rest of the game you can now play any combination of spells that add up the maximum number of mana you currently have, regardless of threshold.

Now change that to three colors with one main and two minor colors, using the same definition that the minor color spells only require one threshold. One you hit two main resources and one each of your minor resources, you can play any combination of spells in your deck that add up to the total mana you can use that turn, regardless if you want to spend it on all three colors, or just multiple spells of one color.

This is not possible with Magic.

Do you need more examples?

stiii
05-27-2013, 09:39 AM
You may not have said it, but it's an argument that has been made on multiple occasions in this thread



Which you then agreed with


You asked for evidence of my post on its popularity and the fact that if it were as flawed as you say, it wouldn't be so popular, your weak retort was that it was because there is prize support, but that is not true for people that aren't playing in tournaments, and there are always people not playing in tournaments pretty much anywhere you go.


What I am saying is irrelevant is the entire discussion because it cannot be changed, you've yet to clue me into what you're trying to accomplish here. Or even why you're backing the game at all? Are you backing the game?

I wasn't asking for evidence on magic popularity I was asking for evidence on the fact that everyone likes the magic system. Just because magic is most popular doesn't mean everything it does is perfect. Starcraft and LOL are pretty successful so using them as examples is rather odd. Not that you said anything about them but apparently everyone has to answer to things anyone on their side said.

There are a bunch of things they can and might change just because you don't think they will isn't going to stop me asking for things. And yes I did back Hex.

stiii
05-27-2013, 09:43 AM
Okay, now let me generalize now that you get the idea. If you are playing a two color deck and all the cards in your deck are two threshold or less of whatever combination of colors. On turn two, if you have one of each resource, you can play any combination of spells worth up to two mana. If you have two of one resource and one of the other, you can now play any combination of cards in your decks that add up to three mana except for the two threshold spells of the color you only have one of. Once you hit two of both resources, you can now play any combination of spells in your deck that add up to four mana, and from that point on you can play any combination of spells that add up to the maximum amount of mana you can spend.

Same example except now your deck is heavily weighted towards one main color and one minor color, designed so your minor color spells only require one threshold. Once you hit two of your main color and one of your minor, for the rest of the game you can now play any combination of spells that add up the maximum number of mana you currently have, regardless of threshold.

Now change that to three colors with one main and two minor colors, using the same definition that the minor color spells only require one threshold. One you hit two main resources and one each of your minor resources, you can play any combination of spells in your deck that add up to the total mana you can use that turn, regardless if you want to spend it on all three colors, or just multiple spells of one color.

This is not possible with Magic.

Do you need more examples?

I am aware of how threshold works. It doesn't allow you to cast any spells you couldn't cast in magic. It just allows you to cast them faster. Therefore it doesn't really help with mana screw. Magic decks aren't full of 1/2 drops of your splash colour and while threshold helps a bit I doubt it will help enough. Unless they print a bunch of dual lands you are going to get screwed more in Hex. A deck with 8 red 8 white and 8 wr duals has a much better mana base than a hex deck with 12 red and 12 white no matter what costs you have.

Gwaer
05-27-2013, 09:46 AM
I wasn't asking for evidence on magic popularity I was asking for evidence on the fact that everyone likes the magic system. Just because magic is most popular doesn't mean everything it does is perfect. Starcraft and LOL are pretty successful so using them as examples is rather odd. Not that you said anything about them but apparently everyone has to answer to things anyone on their side said.

There are a bunch of things they can and might change just because you don't think they will isn't going to stop me asking for things. And yes I did back Hex.

You've outright been caught lying now, You specifically said that it gives new players a chance to beat veterans, that is exactly the same as saying worse players or lesser players, however you want to phrase it. You lied, you did say that. Finally, its popularity is evidence that the system isn't as flawed as you make it out to be, no one claimed it to be perfect, I simply said any other system that may alleviate the problems you're talking about would just introduce other different problems. Crypto has picked these problems, they feel they can best compensate for these problems. The system is set in stone, it will not be redone, you've yet to tell me what you're trying to accomplish, it has become obvious that you'll say whatever you like to make the system look bad, and there's no point discussing it with you any longer. Good day.

maniza
05-27-2013, 09:54 AM
a posible solution is since this is a digital game to have your hand with a fixed mana from the start for example your hand is 5 random cards but 2 are shards for shure. i dont have a problem with mana screw but alot of ppl seem to.

stiii
05-27-2013, 09:55 AM
Hai stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii so I noticed a lot of your posts are just pointing out all of the problems with other people's posts and I'm sort of lazy so I was wondering if you could list out changes you've thought of that work within the current system since you're the only one I've seen who's smart enough about both.

I'm going to take this at face value as people shouldn't be allowed to make obvious errors in their posts and get away with it.

Option A: Fix the shuffler for opening hands. Force the game to always give 2-5 lands in every opening hand. This does allow peopel to play 58 spells 2 lands and always draw both lands but I'm not sure if that is really a problem. you could also add in a land if they draw just one, which is much more common than zero and is probably impossible ot abuse.

Option B: a free mulligan or a free 0,1,6,7 land mulligan. Again you might need to only allow 1/2 of these to prevent 2 land decks but even then assuming you have a clock it would take forever to get to the desired state.

Option C: make charge powers a lot better. Currently if you get flooded you might get a 0/1 if they have a greater impact players are encouraged to run more lands.

Option A might not be possible but the other two certainly are.

stiii
05-27-2013, 10:06 AM
You've outright been caught lying now, You specifically said that it gives new players a chance to beat veterans, that is exactly the same as saying worse players or lesser players, however you want to phrase it. You lied, you did say that. Finally, its popularity is evidence that the system isn't as flawed as you make it out to be, no one claimed it to be perfect, I simply said any other system that may alleviate the problems you're talking about would just introduce other different problems. Crypto has picked these problems, they feel they can best compensate for these problems. The system is set in stone, it will not be redone, you've yet to tell me what you're trying to accomplish, it has become obvious that you'll say whatever you like to make the system look bad, and there's no point discussing it with you any longer. Good day.

Ummm where exactly am I lying?

I said magic's system gives bad players a chance to beat better players. What else did I say that disagrees with that?

Oh I guess we are back to you being unable to read! I assume you are referring to this bit.

"it has repeated champions so "lesser skilled players" are not consistently winning magic tournaments."

So in your mind giving lesser players a chance to beat better players is the same as those lesser player consistently winning magic tournaments. Or maybe it is some other absurd misreading of my words that you mean, who knows?


It is probably for the best that you've said good day as it is obvious that you struggle to read as I've mentioned in a number of my posts what I'd like done. I'm not willing to accept on face value that magic has the best system possible just because it does the best.

ForgedSol
05-27-2013, 11:23 AM
I am aware of how threshold works. It doesn't allow you to cast any spells you couldn't cast in magic. It just allows you to cast them faster. Therefore it doesn't really help with mana screw. Magic decks aren't full of 1/2 drops of your splash colour and while threshold helps a bit I doubt it will help enough. Unless they print a bunch of dual lands you are going to get screwed more in Hex. A deck with 8 red 8 white and 8 wr duals has a much better mana base than a hex deck with 12 red and 12 white no matter what costs you have.

The way you discuss things makes it seem like you actually don't want to listen, and just want to be right. If you understood how threshold works this whole time, why keep on telling people their examples aren't good enough, and instead provide one yourself and move on?

Although your summary of my post is wrong because while I did specifically mention one and two threshold, I covered 1 drops, 2 drops, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc all the way up. And it of course is an example and you can expand that to cover cards with even higher thresholds. It seems like you are being purposefully being obtuse.

And of course they're going to print dual lands.

To reply in advance to when you are going to want to say, "But you have no proof." We do do have proof that they will be printing special resources. Dual lands is the obvious choice. It's an obvious inference. They know that some people don't like Magic's mana system and they've worked to improve upon it. They aren't going to make it worse by not printing dual lands.

stiii
05-27-2013, 02:07 PM
The way you discuss things makes it seem like you actually don't want to listen, and just want to be right. If you understood how threshold works this whole time, why keep on telling people their examples aren't good enough, and instead provide one yourself and move on?

Although your summary of my post is wrong because while I did specifically mention one and two threshold, I covered 1 drops, 2 drops, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc all the way up. And it of course is an example and you can expand that to cover cards with even higher thresholds. It seems like you are being purposefully being obtuse.

And of course they're going to print dual lands.

To reply in advance to when you are going to want to say, "But you have no proof." We do do have proof that they will be printing special resources. Dual lands is the obvious choice. It's an obvious inference. They know that some people don't like Magic's mana system and they've worked to improve upon it. They aren't going to make it worse by not printing dual lands.

And the way you respond makes me think you just want to talk down to someone. you don't want to explain why you are right just inform me that you are. What sort of example could I possibly give that would make you happy? I think that the Hex system is pretty much exactly the same as magic's system.

You going up to 6!! drops gives me a perfect example of how meaningless this is. You are saying people might be able to cast multiple 6 drops in one turn? that is just absurd. So in fact with 6 drop or in fact any higher drops at all it makes zero difference, as opposed to the tiny difference it makes to lower drops.

So yes I don't want to listen to people who can't back up what they are saying.

ForgedSol
05-27-2013, 02:13 PM
It seems like you don't know how to extrapolate from examples, you have once again missed the point of my post, like you have with many other posters in this thread. It seems like you have a perspective that looks at things extremely narrowly and literally and you ignore the whole of a post. (This it giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have a different communication style than a lot of other posters and that you're not just trolling.) I don't know how to have a discussion with you, so I will stop.

stiii
05-27-2013, 03:23 PM
I can easily say the same thing about you. You extrapolate one thing from an example and I extrapolate something very different. You are saying look at all these example where Hex is different to magic. And I'm saying these example are corner cases which won't come up very often in real games with real deck, and when they do still won't matter much.

You say I've missed your point like if I understood you then obviously I would agree with you. As opposed to me understanding what you are saying and just not agreeing. You seem to expect me to just end up agreeing with you and if I don't then I'm doing something wrong. Why doesn't this logic cut both ways I've laid out my points so maybe you just don't understand me and that is why you don't agree? Do you see how condescending this is?


You are however much more reasonable than the guy who called me a liar but didn't bother to explain what he was babbling about

Boojum
05-27-2013, 05:30 PM
I've said this before, but I'd be on board with any of those three options. Obviously CZE isn't going to totally overhaul the resource system and replace it with something else at this point, but it's completely possible to make some tweaks around the edges of the system that would even out some of the worst vagaries and let more games be decided through interesting play.