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GGeka
05-25-2013, 03:03 AM
*Note: I've only spent about 2 hours on reading up on this game, as so I may have missed some information or was miss-informed about some things*

That aside here are my concerns about this game.


1.) The game is f2p, but will it be p2w?

As thousands of games from diferent genres before this one we have seen thousands of examples when a game advertises itself as f2p but ends up being a money-grab p2w or offers unfair advantages to people who spend money on the game. Many games have failed because of this (The playerbase who was willing to spend no money on the game got upset and left, leaving only those who spend money on the game playing it (A good business model), but then the game no longer is f2p (in it's core)

2.) Game balance (p2w, unfair advantages)

With the addition to socketing, gearing, (champions, heroes, leaders) balancing the game is going to be hard, this is where the p2w issue arises again, if one could put 1000$ into this game, and acquire all the best gems, gear ect. then a person who did not put in that mass amount of money will probably have a tough time beating such a person (p2w and unfair advantages also kill tournament play, where both participants should be considered equal)

3.) Game balance (In-game card, equipment... balance)

Maintaining all these things at a balanced level is a nightmare, the more content you have that affects the gameplay in a direct manner and has the ability to change it is terrifying. Non-Balanced things and so called (OP) things will probably exist but those are not the problem (Perfect imbalance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w)
But this is probably going to be one of the main issues of the game

4.) Tournament play
Tournament play is great, it promotes the competitive feeling of a game that almost all world-popular games in all genres and helps it gain even more popularity. But tournament play also requires a great deal of balance in all areas (See 2.) , 3.) , 1.) ) Its sucess is also a huge turnover for the game. Popular tournament play can skyrocket the game into sucess, but failing it can turn people away from it, or it just exists there as an over-looked and non-important factor of the game.

5.) In game currency vs. Money
This is the main problem in almost all games where real money can buy in-game advantages (power). It is !reasonable! that spending money on a game grants you advantages (The game industry is a business non the less). But! In game currency should be able to buy ALL gameplay-relevant things that Money can buy. A sucessfull f2p with microtransactions allows in-game currency to buy all the things that money can buy (With the exception of cosmetical items) but at a slower rate. Meaning that people who dont spend money on the game have the same chance to gain things that people who spend money can. (Money->Getting advantages faster ; In-game currency->Can still obtain advantages that money can buy)

6.) The in-game market

As with all markets exploitation is bound to happen, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's something that they will have to look after, controling the supply/demand of a market is a fun thing to do, but if you take it to far it can and will ruin the market economy.

---

These are just my concerns, almost all f2p games face atleast one if not all of these problems, and I'm sure that these factors will make or break this game, just like these factors made or broke thousands of other games. (F2p=/= p2w)

In the end I wish that this game meets the expectations and that the game is a success and adresses these issues with care.

Dictionary:

f2p = Free to play
p2w = pay to win
p2p = pay to play
Perfect imbalance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 03:06 AM
PvP is really balanced and will require you to buy boosters/trade cards to have the deck you want, you can play 1v1 with starter decks tho.

PvE is where balance doesn't matter cause you're here to have fun vs the AI.

PvE and casual PvP are definitely free to play
Competitive PvP will be Pay to Play (and skill to win)

CZE will only sell boosters, starters, tournament entry (to compensate prize support).
They will not sell energy, dungeons/raids access etc...

~

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 03:14 AM
About Luck vs Skill :
Here's Richard Garfield speaking about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSg408i-eKw

~

Hock
05-25-2013, 03:20 AM
Hex isn't Free to Play, not entirely. The PvE portion is, but they've said from the start that any PvP tournaments will cost money for entering tournaments and whatnot.

It could end up being true that constructed decks will be pay to win, but with booster drafts that won't be an issue.

A lot of the balance issues are addressed by only allowing certain portions of the game available in PvE. Equipment and leveled heroes won't be usable in PvP, and many of the cards won't be usable there either. Yes they are introducing a lot of crazy concepts that are hard to balance, but by limiting what is allowed in PvP they are making it considerably easier for themselves.

TheDiv
05-25-2013, 03:26 AM
I don't understand how you could have a competitive (i.e. PVP) TCG that isn't pay to win? You need cards to play, cards cost money, you need to pay for them to acquire them.

I think you need to read more up on the game as PvE and PvP are quite distinct and will balanced in their own right.

Equipment is not available in PvP at all, so that's a non-issue.

Hock
05-25-2013, 03:39 AM
I don't understand how you could have a competitive (i.e. PVP) TCG that isn't pay to win? You need cards to play, cards cost money, you need to pay for them to acquire them.

I think you need to read more up on the game as PvE and PvP are quite distinct and will balanced in their own right.

Equipment is not available in PvP at all, so that's a non-issue.

Pay to Win typically refers to a game in which the winner is determined not by skill, but by whomever payed the most money. Yes, in a TCG you have to pay to play, but the hope is that a skilled player will be able to beat an unskilled opponent that purchased all the best cards.

Of course there will always be an advantage for the player who pas more money, buys more boosters, goes to the auction for specific cards, etc, but with a properly balanced game that shouldn't result in an automatic victory for that player.

TheDiv
05-25-2013, 03:51 AM
the hope is that a skilled player will be able to beat an unskilled opponent that purchased all the best cards.

Ah that's true. I think I mixed up Pay to Win with Pay to Play. My bad!

brynsul
05-25-2013, 03:53 AM
Constructed PvP will be somewhat P2W. If I have a Deck that I have only opened a few packs and one starter it SHOULD lose to one that has taken a player more time/money/thought to craft than a random pile of cards. This is just the nature of card games as a whole.

Draft will be the best place for a balanced approach for fair play, everyone opens the same number of packs. Luck and Skill will be the determining factor here.

Rapkannibale
05-25-2013, 04:03 AM
Constructed PvP will be somewhat P2W. If I have a Deck that I have only opened a few packs and one starter it SHOULD lose to one that has taken a player more time/money/thought to craft than a random pile of cards. This is just the nature of card games as a whole.

Draft will be the best place for a balanced approach for fair play, everyone opens the same number of packs. Luck and Skill will be the determining factor here.

This is only true if you assume both players are on the same skill level. A more skilled player should be able to beat a less skilled player even with a deck with less powerful cards.

The PvP aspect of Hex is no more or less pay to win than Magic the Gathering. Easiest way to acquire PvP cards will be buying them for cash but you could potentially trade/sell rare PvE cards and equipment a for PvP cards.

Arbiter
05-25-2013, 04:04 AM
PVP draft is completely balanced. Everyone has the same thing. The better players have it cheaper (as more of their boosters come from prizes.

PVP constructed in this game will require a deck built. People can buy a deck, or build one from their own cards. They also have the option of trading or even borrowing cards from friends. A good player with a cheap deck will most likely beat a poor player who has bought a deck. In fact that is key for TCGs, the better you are the less you will have to pay as you will win more and are more likely to be self funded. Most TCGs have always had competitive cheap options.

If the matchmaking is done right it shouldn't matter what you have spent, you will be playing someone of around the same skill level.

In the end it is more pay to play PVP, free to play PVE. Most of the big spenders in TCG don't win that much. It is one thing to have the "best" deck money can buy, another to play it well. Everything is tradable, so people should be able to get the deck they want in the manner they want.

Balance in TCGs - well at least they are a company that has made them so they have some experience in that regard. In the end balance will happen, but there will always be spikes where something dominates. And times when a deck is dominating can actually bve interesting times in the meta anyway.

Tournament play is important but the game will succeed or fail on its casual base. Pro players spend a lot less than casual players (they are vastly outnumbered) in paper based TCGs, the online will be no different. It will need to hook in casual players and get them happy to spend some cash to play the occasional tournament or just grab some cards. The PVE game, along with allowing casual play seems promising.

This game doesn't sell the sorts of things you are used to seeing in F2P shops. It sells packs of random cards and tournament entry tokens. A F2P TCG is a very different beast from a F2P MMO.

Yasi
05-25-2013, 04:06 AM
You guys are hella dumb.

Digital_Aether
05-25-2013, 05:48 AM
1.) The game is f2p, but will it be p2w?
The PvE aspects of this game are entirely f2p. If you're talking about constructed format PvP, then you'll need to obtain PvP cards to be able to make decks, and it's likely that if you're stuffing a deck with rares that you'll have to spend some money on that deck. Draft is pay to play, but not pay to win. There will be an auction house, so it is likely that using free to play PvE winnings of gold and cards, that you'll be able to get some PvP cards. Whether this is enough for you or not for constructed depends on the deck you're trying to build.

2.) Game balance (p2w, unfair advantages)
As with all TCG's, collecting cards often requires money either through booster packs or buying singles. Gems are unlimited and free, and equipment is not used in PvP. It is only obtaining the cards you want to play with that will likely cost money.

3.) Game balance (In-game card, equipment... balance)
There are a subset of PvP cards (350 in set 1 with an additional 300 PvE cards that cannot be used for PvP) that can be used for PvP play. Equipment is also not in PvP play. This reduces the factors to balance significantly, allowing for potentially unfair combos to show up for PvE, but letting them keep a tight grasp on competitive modes.

4.) Tournament play
I already addressed the balance concerns above. Since the really leading tournament format is draft, which is pay to play and clearly not pay to win (as you get the cards at the match), it only needs to rely on card balance. Limiting the variables for competitive modes helps to give them the ability to balance it. CZE is a company with a reputation for its card games, and I believe they'll be quite capable in balancing the PvP cards.

5.) In game currency vs. Money
Because of the auction house and two currencies, the rate at which PvE content can be exchanged for PvP content is dependent on the marketplace. Because of how much and how deep the PvE content is, it is likely that people will be trading for rare PvE cards that are only obtainable through playing PvE content. The fact that money can't buy PvE content, and that PvE content doesn't reward pay content, means people who want to pay for PvE related items will be reliant upon people playing that free content, and not just CZE themselves. This should make sure there is a somewhat reliable economy for free players.

6.) The in-game market
Because it's one huge AH, and not locked off into population limited zones like f2p mmo's, market manipulation will be much harder assuming a large player base.

Hexmage
05-25-2013, 06:01 AM
If you want to be competitive at the highest level PVP in Hex it will cost you money (unless all you do is draft). You can beat inexperienced players who play an expensive deck. But you won't be able to consistently beat experienced players with a powerful expensive deck. You could always try to go for the rogue strategies, by which I mean design your own deck which players aren't expecting and aren't prepared for.

EDIT: I just remembered that Cory said something about godmode tournaments where you have access to all cards.

Jugan
05-25-2013, 06:05 AM
Heaven forbid that you can buy better cards to have a better deck!

swigmonkey
05-25-2013, 06:17 AM
@OP,

This is a TCG with PVE component to make in an MMO type. I feel without a doubt the TCG (PVP) portion of the game will without a doubt be the funnest part of the game. Sure you have to pay for the cards to be competitive, but that is the TCG portion of the game. Is it P2W? Sure all constructed decks are essentially P2W. He who has the better deck wins, and usually that deck requires a certain monetary investment that if the other player can not afford to spend on the cards he or she needs, they will most likely lose due to the fact the matchup was a bad one.

Limited formats (Drafting and Sealed) are going to be more entirely skill based. (And luck obviously, if you get nothing in a sealed it is hard to win now a days)

Black_Omega
05-25-2013, 08:08 AM
I suspect the original poster has missed the point of the TCG/CCG style. No matter what platform (online, computer, physical cards) it is a pay to play game. You need to purchase cards to play, period. There just happens to be free content that is not player versus player in Hex, making it stand apart (although you will still need to purchase decks, boosters, etc...).

The idea 'pay to win' in CCG/TCG's is somewhat accurate. Somewhat. You can have an expensive deck, but the luck of the draw can put you at a disadvantage over an opponent with a weaker deck (even if you have the 4 card max for a card in the deck). I played Star Wars CCG extensively back in the late 90's, I remember paying 40.00$ for one card - a good card. But if you don't draw it, or your opponent draws combinations that work well before you can, the cost of your deck doesn't matter.

And yes, I agree drafts are more skill based as you are playing with cards almost at random without any prior knowledge of what you will get. But in constructed decks, more money does not mean more wins.

Trial and error. Build a deck and refine it as you play. You can also have a superior deck against one opponent and totally wipe the floor with him, but your next opponent you lose because of what they have in their deck. I don't believe in the idea that there are certain combinations of decks that are un-beatable.

It's a combination of three things:
1) Player knowledge of the game and how they play
2) What cards are in the deck
3) Draw order of the cards

If you don't know enough about the game, #2 and #3 don't matter because chances are you have constructed a poor deck (#2).

But I digress.. TCG/CCG's are pay to play, period. Pay to win, subjective. :)

Chance
05-25-2013, 08:35 AM
you read for a couple hours and then posted a high school essay. why would you do that???? you know next to nothing, if i had a project two years in development and gods knows how many in conceptualization and some uninformed dude brandishing his sub par intelligence and half baked ideas came sauntering up I'd lose my shit. You're so damn lucky domesctic violence is frowned upon

nicosharp
05-25-2013, 08:35 AM
Constructed Player vs. Player TCG's have always been expensive to enter.
A typical MTG tournament ready deck can cost well over $400 to make in playable cards.

This game however, offers you options to Play to Win, by allowing you to win in PvE and trade up for PvP.

Everyone that plays drafts or sealed TCG PvP games are on a equal playing field in terms of entry fee. The entry fee is there to allow packs to be won at the end, and does not cheapen the value of PvP cards by giving them away for free.

You need to treat the game as if it is any other Micro-transaction based game. The more time you put in, and the better you are, the less money you need to invest to get everything you want. The more casual you are, and the less time you put in requires more capital investment to play at a competitive level. This can apply to League of Legends in many ways, and other games.
It's not Pay to Win, it is semi Pay to Play, but it is also Play to Win, and Play to Pay.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 08:43 AM
You posted six points and it could have easily been consolidated into maybe two. This game is not pay to win, it's pay to play PvP. All of the PvE content is free, the devs have said they are really really focused on balancing PvP but that they want PvE to have more creative freedom because they're balancing it against the AI.

Black_Omega
05-25-2013, 10:29 AM
you read for a couple hours and then posted a high school essay. why would you do that???? you know next to nothing, if i had a project two years in development and gods knows how many in conceptualization and some uninformed dude brandishing his sub par intelligence and half baked ideas came sauntering up I'd lose my shit. You're so damn lucky domesctic violence is frowned upon

This literally made me laugh out loud. Well said, good sir.

Estar1
05-25-2013, 10:44 AM
Edit: posted to wrong topic disregard.

soulessz
05-25-2013, 10:45 AM
One of my biggest concerns are that the PvP and PvE aspects of the game goes so distant from eachother that in a way, it becomes 2 different games. PvP will cost money to play, possibly even alot. If you want to play PvP competitive but don't want to pay any money, you can not play the game. The PvE part of the game sounds great at first. But it seem to be mostly just casual gaming, not competitive. Online TCGs (Hex is definetly not the first) and similiar kind of games nowadays, have a way to connect the Free to Play to the Pay to Play part of the game, Hex however, seem to hate that idea.

Turtlewing
05-25-2013, 10:46 AM
Regarding "Play to win"

CZE does not appear to be planning to sell single cards in their platinum shop, only boosters. Since boosters are also the prize for winning PvP tournaments I'd say that Hex does not fit the usual concept of "pay to win" where you have to buy the account bound microtranaction items for real money to get access to the best stuff.

That said, when playing constructed competitively opening boosters is an ineficient way to get cards so most people will instead buy singles on the auction house where demand for the better cards will result in a higher price than for less desirable cards.

Travis
05-25-2013, 10:49 AM
I don't see any place where Cryptozoic announced the game as Free to Play. I skimmed their website, the game overview and Kickstarter. I didn't find one place where they said the game was Free to Play. If you are talking about whether or not they will have a monthly subscription fee. The answer to that is no.

If I am wrong, feel free to jump on this thread and link them saying the game was free to play.

Genocidal
05-25-2013, 10:55 AM
What are our goals for HEX?

• We want to bring together both experienced TCG veterans and new players who have never played a collectible card game before. The game is free to download and play, so anyone can give it a try!

Right off the kickstarter page, near the top.

Hadin
05-25-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't see any place where Cryptozoic announced the game as Free to Play. I skimmed their website, the game overview and Kickstarter. I didn't find one place where they said the game was Free to Play. If you are talking about whether or not they will have a monthly subscription fee. The answer to that is no.

If I am wrong, feel free to jump on this thread and link them saying the game was free to play.

There is no upfront cost to install the game. You get a free (very basic) starter deck, which you can use to play PvE encounters. Other starters are available for $10 each (the ones being given to KS backers). In order to get into PvP you will need PvP cards, which are not freely obtained.

ShaolinRaven
05-25-2013, 12:40 PM
There is no upfront cost to install the game. You get a free (very basic) starter deck, which you can use to play PvE encounters. Other starters are available for $10 each (the ones being given to KS backers). In order to get into PvP you will need PvP cards, which are not freely obtained.

They never said the starter was PvE exclusive. I'd be surprised if you couldn't use that free starter in some PvP constructed matches as well, at least with some friends to get an idea into PvP without buying anything first.

Also in PvE they said there are 2 PvP factions to give PvE players a taste of PvP, so you might get a pack or two out of those factions.

But yes to be competitive in PvP you'll have to buy boosters and cards, kind of how card games of this type work. To be casual in PvP you don't have to spend anything really.

Kietay
05-25-2013, 01:53 PM
You guys are hella dumb.

c: Someone knows.

If you want to eliminate P2W from your experience, play drafts. Otherwise the entire point of the game is to buy better cards to do better. It is pretty funny to me that people are talking about balance in a TCG. Most of the game is going to be decided by when you 1.) pick your cards for your deck, and 2.) draw the cards in the right order (luck). The other small part of determining who wins will be your actual decisions.

Which I hate to break it to all of you: are not a large determining factor in a card game where you pick your deck. Yes it obviously makes a difference but its a game and it is not very hard to copy paste the best possible deck, or even learn how to do good draft picks. Its still competitive and fun! But definitely in a casual way compared to other games that don't involve luck.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 01:55 PM
If you want to eliminate P2W from your experience, play drafts.


Don't you have to pay to enter drafts? And you can't win a draft without entering...and everyone who wins a draft will have entered, thus they paid...


PAY TO WIN?????

jai151
05-25-2013, 02:16 PM
c: Someone knows.

If you want to eliminate P2W from your experience, play drafts. Otherwise the entire point of the game is to buy better cards to do better.

Except the "paying" you're doing for constructed is to other players, not CZE.

Fireblast
05-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Most of the game is going to be decided by when you 1.) pick your cards for your deck, and 2.) draw the cards in the right order (luck). The other small part of determining who wins will be your actual decisions.

Which I hate to break it to all of you: are not a large determining factor in a card game where you pick your deck.

That's true for WOWTCG, I hope HEX goes more like MtG (where decisions matter).
The problem of WOWTCG is the resource system, you just gotta curve up, this is not true for MtG and Hex, you actually have to play the right cards at the right time (which is determined by your skill and not your mana curve).

~

Kietay
05-25-2013, 03:06 PM
Learning the optimal play in a game is not hard though, execution is always the limiting factor, and since nothing is timed or reaction based in a card game, it doesn't matter. The only factors to winning are: Deck construction, Luck, and Knowledge. Since compared to most things in life it is incredibly easy to learn how to play a game like this very well, most people who want to be good, will be on equal footing skill-wise (Knowledge)(Deck Building). Hence the determining factor will be luck.

stiii
05-25-2013, 04:53 PM
That's true for WOWTCG, I hope HEX goes more like MtG (where decisions matter).
The problem of WOWTCG is the resource system, you just gotta curve up, this is not true for MtG and Hex, you actually have to play the right cards at the right time (which is determined by your skill and not your mana curve).

~

You seem really bitter about wow in a lot of your posts. I don't see any evidence that mtg is more skill based than wow (or less). Only someone who has played both games at a high level could really tell and you are still left comparing apples to oranges anyway.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 04:55 PM
I think both resource systems have pretty equal advantages and disadvantages and it really comes down to personal preference.

stiii
05-25-2013, 06:05 PM
Learning the optimal play in a game is not hard though, execution is always the limiting factor, and since nothing is timed or reaction based in a card game, it doesn't matter. The only factors to winning are: Deck construction, Luck, and Knowledge. Since compared to most things in life it is incredibly easy to learn how to play a game like this very well, most people who want to be good, will be on equal footing skill-wise (Knowledge)(Deck Building). Hence the determining factor will be luck.

I always wonder if posts like this are a joke or people are really this clueless about how hard perfect play is. If you think you are playing perfectly 99% of the time you are just deluding yourself with the other 1% being when you get mana screwed and can't cast any spells.

GGeka
05-26-2013, 03:57 AM
you read for a couple hours and then posted a high school essay. why would you do that???? you know next to nothing, if i had a project two years in development and gods knows how many in conceptualization and some uninformed dude brandishing his sub par intelligence and half baked ideas came sauntering up I'd lose my shit. You're so damn lucky domesctic violence is frowned upon

Then enlighten me with your opinion, superior intelligence and constructive critisism.

Edit: I'll be expecting your response, hopefully it wont be as "half-baked" as mine was.

cheese
05-26-2013, 06:44 AM
On P2W vs Skilled.

In MTG, pauper (only commons) decks have previously won multiple FNMs at my game store, sub $100 decks have prized at PTQs, and a "budget" $250 deck won a Pro Tour (second place was as $1200 deck). These are all really cheap, and played in the right hands apparently do win.

However, at the same time, someone can go online, find a turn 0-3 win legacy deck, shell out a couple thousand dollars, and with only a bit of reading and some luck, take out even the most skilled magic players in small tournaments.

TCGs require skill to play well, but the most expensive deck can win in even a "noob's" hands if they're lucky. Nothing will change that. It's how TCGs are, and how they will always be. Money buys the best cards, and the best cards win tournaments.