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TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Even with the perfect ratio, you will always have a terrible game when "you get unlucky", and with resources in your deck, bad games are guaranteed to occur. Mana flood or mana screw is a one of the worst parts of MTG, and I was hoping for a MTG tactics type of way of generating resources. Basically you get a fixed resource increase overtime instead of dealing with lands in deck, and deck sizes are reduced to 40 with 5 card opening hands.


One positive about HEX's resource system, that it seems like their will be no rare resource cards, so the price to enter competitive constructed PvP will be reduced dramatically.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:07 PM
Not how hex works

Yasi
05-25-2013, 06:08 PM
There really is no point to the Draw-1-card-at-the-beginning-of-each-turn feature either. They should just remove that completely and let us pick what card we want to put into our hand each turn.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:09 PM
Not how hex works

If you watch the game play video, the resource cards were drawn and played just like MTG....
Not sure what you mean by your post.

Constipation
05-25-2013, 06:09 PM
It's unrealistic of them to change the way mana works this late into development. Your idea would completely change the game's mechanics.

Sorry, but it's not going to happen.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:11 PM
and I was hoping for a MTG tactics type of way of generating resources. Basically you get a fixed resource increase overtime instead of dealing with lands in deck, and deck sizes are reduced to 40 with 5 card opening hands.


Not how hex works. Better?

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:11 PM
There really is no point to the Draw-1-card-at-the-beginning-of-each-turn feature either. They should just remove that completely and let us pick what card we want to put into our hand each turn.

?

One of the reasons I love MTG tactics is that there is no such thing as a bad game because I got all lands or no lands. In a 60 card deck the normal is 24 lands with 36 nonland cards.

The 40 card deck system would actually give LARGER decks which leads to more variance and NEVER a bad game because of mana screw.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:12 PM
Not how hex works. Better?

Yes thats not the direction they are going with HEX?
What is your point?

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:14 PM
It's unrealistic of them to change the way mana works this late into development. Your idea would completely change the game's mechanics.

Sorry, but it's not going to happen.

I know its not going to happen, but it really is a mistake on their part to mirror the WORST PART about MTG, the resource system in the deck. ESP when its a pure digital card game.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:14 PM
Yes thats not the direction they are going with HEX?
What is your point?

All you said was "I hoped it wasn't like this." Not sure what reply you wanted. There's been lots of threads already about the resource system.

alpha5099
05-25-2013, 06:15 PM
One positive about HEX's resource system, that it seems like their will be no rare resource cards, so the price to enter competitive constructed PvP will be reduced dramatically.

There actually will be non-basic resources, though we don't yet know how rare they'll be, what effect they'll have on constructed costs, or even really what they do.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/456/890/75cf85c7d80b05982c3dc0687155c609_large.jpg?1363747 950

Yasi
05-25-2013, 06:15 PM
I've never played MTG before.

funktion
05-25-2013, 06:16 PM
If you want a game that has no variance, go play chess. If you want a TCG that has no resources, i've seen one or two and to me they lacked any sort of depth and were not very fun.

They haven't said anything about not doing non-basic resources. Why limit yourself in game design.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:16 PM
All you said was "I hoped it wasn't like this." Not sure what reply you wanted. There's been lots of threads already about the resource system.

MTG resources system is literally the worst thing to mirror for a TCG

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:17 PM
MTG resources system is literally the worst thing to mirror for a TCG

I like MTG's resource system because it's like life: sometimes you get fucked in the face and you have to deal with it.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:17 PM
If you want a game that has no variance, go play chess. If you want a TCG that has no resources, i've seen one or two and to me they lacked any sort of depth and were not very fun.

They haven't said anything about not doing non-basic resources. Why limit yourself in game design.


I will go back to MTG tactics, never once had a bad experience because of mana screw. I felt there was plenty of variance.

Digital_Aether
05-25-2013, 06:17 PM
So, the Hex system already mitigates mana screw and flood to some degree. It doesn't remove the possibility, but it reduces the impact. First, it's the threshold system for mana screw. Because resources are colorless, 2 ruby + 4 diamond will let you play a bunch of red cards. It drastically reduces mana screw on multi-color decks, even if not doing too much for a total mana screw. The heros have charge powers to mitigate mana flood. There are still charge powers in PvP, and if you get too much resource, you'll have more use of your charge power. Luck of the draw will always impact a game where you draw cards, and I don't see why resources should be any more exempt than anything else. Green decks often play off mana-gathering cards to build up more quickly than others, giving resource an important dynamic for some.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:18 PM
There actually will be non-basic resources, though we don't yet know how rare they'll be, what effect they'll have on constructed costs, or even really what they do.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/456/890/75cf85c7d80b05982c3dc0687155c609_large.jpg?1363747 950

Oh great they are going to mirror MTG rare lands /sigh......

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:19 PM
So, the Hex system already mitigates mana screw and flood to some degree. It doesn't remove the possibility, but it reduces the impact. First, it's the threshold system for mana screw. Because resources are colorless, 2 ruby + 4 diamond will let you play a bunch of red cards. It drastically reduces mana screw on multi-color decks, even if not doing too much for a total mana screw. The heros have charge powers to mitigate mana flood. There are still charge powers in PvP, and if you get too much resource, you'll have more use of your charge power. Luck of the draw will always impact a game where you draw cards, and I don't see why resources should be any more exempt than anything else. Green decks often play off mana-gathering cards to build up more quickly than others, giving resource an important dynamic for some.

Well yeah that is a positive, they are addressing color screw issues other then printing rare lands.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:20 PM
I feel like not having a resource system just turns into "let me play all my cool stuff all the time."

nicosharp
05-25-2013, 06:21 PM
I like MTG's resource system because it's like life: sometimes you get fucked in the face and you have to deal with it.

What brothel do you work in?

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:21 PM
I feel like not having a resource system just turns into "let me play all my cool stuff all the time."

Its really not, its more like, "Let me play this game and not get locked out because of bad hand"

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:22 PM
What brothel do you work in?

If I worked in a brothel it wouldn't be sometimes. It's how I move up the corporate ladder.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:25 PM
Fact: Rare lands = dramatically increased constructed prices.

Why?
Rare = hard to find.
Rare = better then common.

And the resource system is fundamental just to play the game.

nicosharp
05-25-2013, 06:25 PM
If I worked in a brothel it wouldn't be sometimes. It's how I move up the corporate ladder.

here, here. I hope they at least had blinds in their office.

Digital_Aether
05-25-2013, 06:27 PM
Its really not, its more like, "Let me play this game and not get locked out because of bad hand"

You can still get a terrible hand even without a mana system. It's another system and set of mechanics that adds complexity to the game. Getting rid of it allows you to focus on other mechanics, which maybe you prefer, but resource management is an important part of strategy games in general. Decks can have strategies for dealing with these situations, and players have to adjust their play based on how their mana situation is looking. I think it adds far more than it removes, especially with the mitigations Hex has in place.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:30 PM
You can still get a terrible hand even without a mana system. It's another system and set of mechanics that adds complexity to the game. Getting rid of it allows you to focus on other mechanics, which maybe you prefer, but resource management is an important part of strategy games in general. Decks can have strategies for dealing with these situations, and players have to adjust their play based on how their mana situation is looking. I think it adds far more than it removes, especially with the mitigations Hex has in place.

Cards like Rampant growth still function and work in a resource system thats separate from the deck. While I respect your love for the old ways, having 0% chance of getting resource lock is better then having a 8% chance of getting a terrible game because of resource lock.

funktion
05-25-2013, 06:30 PM
MTG resources system is literally the worst thing to mirror for a TCG

I genuinely enjoy magic's land system. I find it deep and rewarding, I'm sorry that you don't, but saying that it's "literally the worst thing" seems pretty sensationalist.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:33 PM
I genuinely enjoy magic's land system. I find it deep and rewarding, I'm sorry that you don't, but saying that it's "literally the worst thing" seems pretty sensationalist.


Someone who enjoys the pains of mana flood/screw is pretty sadistic.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:34 PM
I genuinely enjoy magic's land system. I find it deep and rewarding, I'm sorry that you don't, but saying that it's "literally the worst thing" seems pretty sensationalist.

Me2

funktion
05-25-2013, 06:34 PM
Someone who enjoys the pains of mana flood/screw is pretty sadistic.
Keep generalizing and being sensationalist... it's working.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:35 PM
Me2



I honestly hope your next 10 games of magic are all lands or no lands, even though you have perfect land ratio and low cc cards to help with it.

Genocidal
05-25-2013, 06:36 PM
The next logical step would be to let you pick your hand and coming draws every game, because some games you get screwed by which cards you draw next. Think of resources as any other card in your deck that it's possible to draw at a less than optimal time. A well constructed deck will have ways to mitigate these issues, or accept that it will happen from time to time in order to pack more power cards in.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:38 PM
The next logical step would be to let you pick your hand and coming draws every game, because some games you get screwed by which cards you draw next. Think of resources as any other card in your deck that it's possible to draw at a less than optimal time. A well constructed deck will have ways to mitigate these issues, or accept that it will happen from time to time in order to pack more power cards in.


No thats not logical at all. What a strawman we have here.

You need lands to play the game, and facts are NO lands or ALL lands are painful and annoying.

Even with the perfect ratio and perfect deck, these games come up way to often.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:39 PM
I honestly hope your next 10 games of magic are all lands or no lands, even though you have perfect land ratio and low cc cards to help with it.

I did just play a game where I had to mull to 5 and lost

Genocidal
05-25-2013, 06:40 PM
No thats not logical at all. What a strawman we have here.

You need lands to play the game, and facts are NO lands or ALL lands are painful and annoying.

Even with the perfect ratio and perfect deck, these games come up way to often.
You also need non-lands to play the game. All non-lands or no non-lands is also painful and annoying. Even with 4 copies of each, the games you don't draw them come up way too often.

funktion
05-25-2013, 06:43 PM
Even with the perfect ratio and perfect deck, these games come up way to often.

Maybe for you they do, but if you are better about knowing your deck and knowing when to keep / mull it's not so bad. Games like what you're talking about rarely if ever come up for me. Not to mention my format of choice is 100 card singleton, which has even HIGHER variance, and yet while I certainly have a bad hand / draw every so often, it's never to the point where I don't feel like playing or that I even blame my losses on that variance.

Digital_Aether
05-25-2013, 06:43 PM
having 0% chance of getting resource lock is better then having a 8% chance of getting a terrible game because of resource lock.

I disagree. That to me is like saying checkers is better than chess because you can't move your bishops on turn 1. I find managing the system, for all its trials and tribulations, more enjoyable than not having it. Not to mention, a lot of the hate on the mana system is done when people want to blame luck rather than their playing. And worse than that, I've seen people who don't ever adjust their strategies to lower amounts of mana. They hold cards they shouldn't, sack cards when they shouldn't, etc. They'll blame the luck when they lose, but they aren't dealing with resources correctly. It's a dynamic that adds to the strategies, even if sometimes you get completely hosed. I feel like hex has plenty of mitigation with the thresholds and charges.

Gwaer
05-25-2013, 06:44 PM
Its really not, its more like, "Let me play this game and not get locked out because of bad hand"
The game wont be for everyone. If you hate that resource system so much you might consider a different game.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:46 PM
The game wont be for everyone. If you hate that resource system so much you might consider a different game.

I would never leave now that I know you're here

Gwaer
05-25-2013, 06:49 PM
I would never leave now that I know you're here
<3

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:50 PM
Cant be radical fan about MTG tactics resource system without having a bunch of asshole trolls spamming my thread.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:52 PM
Cant be radical fan about MTG tactics resource system without having a bunch of asshole trolls spamming my thread.

How am I an asshole or a troll, I just like MTG's resource system better (well actually hex's)

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:53 PM
How am I an asshole or a troll, I just like MTG's resource system better (well actually hex's)

Reread your posts.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:55 PM
Reread your posts.

Just did, question still stands. By troll do you mean going off topic?

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 06:56 PM
Just did, question still stands. By troll do you mean going off topic?

I mean basement dwelling manchild who lives with his mother and thinks he knows the best when he doesnt.

stiii
05-25-2013, 06:58 PM
If you want a game that has no variance, go play chess. If you want a TCG that has no resources, i've seen one or two and to me they lacked any sort of depth and were not very fun.

They haven't said anything about not doing non-basic resources. Why limit yourself in game design.

If variance is so good maybe you should go play yu gi oh.

I am aware I've said this already but the logic is just soooooooooo terrible. You could argue that hex gains more from the increased variance but suggesting the the options are a mtg style system or chess is just not true.

Genocidal
05-25-2013, 06:58 PM
Calling people names isn't a great way to try and explain your point of view to people.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 06:58 PM
I mean basement dwelling manchild who lives with his mother and thinks he knows the best when he doesnt.

"Hi I get really mad on forums when someone doesn't and think I'll be insulting by using incredibly old stereotypes that don't even describe the demographic anymore."

I guess I should have expected it after seeing your name. You didn't even want a discussion, just people to agree with you.

stiii
05-25-2013, 06:59 PM
I genuinely enjoy magic's land system. I find it deep and rewarding, I'm sorry that you don't, but saying that it's "literally the worst thing" seems pretty sensationalist.

Oh the irony.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:00 PM
All in all I really don't get why people are discussing this, because there is zero chance they are going to change the resource system.

stiii
05-25-2013, 07:01 PM
The game wont be for everyone. If you hate that resource system so much you might consider a different game.

Or maybe he could suggest to CZE they change their resource system? There are plenty of things they could do to reduce this problem.

stiii
05-25-2013, 07:02 PM
How am I an asshole or a troll, I just like MTG's resource system better (well actually hex's)

This implies you have played other games with different resource systems?

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:03 PM
Yeah stiii from what I've seen + heard, they wanted to try to make it a lot different than wowtcg first of all, in their videos it seems like they are really into the resource system they have going, and also that they have built a lot of things around it. Since the resource system is the foundation of a tcg like this. I really think it is a matter of if you just really can't stand it, don't play because it's not changing.

@ your 2nd post. I have watched videos of games like solforge and hearthstone where the resource philosophy is different, and I think mtg's has more depth and design power. With regard to wowtcg, I might like it more, who knows. Never played it. But I never will because I didn't want to get into another physical tcg after mtg for cost reasons, and especially not now after hex. I was interested in trying it, but also no one plays it round here.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 07:05 PM
Calling people names isn't a great way to try and explain your point of view to people.


Already did, they don't want to hear it.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:07 PM
Already did, they don't want to hear it.

Well it helps if you just put your point in the other threads already about the exact same thing.

stiii
05-25-2013, 07:07 PM
All in all I really don't get why people are discussing this, because there is zero chance they are going to change the resource system.

There are a number of things they could do.

Add champion that reduce the problem (you start with a resource in hand maybe?)

Increase the power of charge abilities current if you get flooded they don't seem to do that much.

Have a shuffler that always gives you 2-5 lands in your opener (there are problems with this)


there is a big gap between changing the whole system and leaving everything exactly as is. It is also annoying to have a string of people who have never played any tcg other than mtg explaining how mtg's system is the best.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:10 PM
There are a number of things they could do.

Add champion that reduce the problem (you start with a resource in hand maybe?)

Increase the power of charge abilities current if you get flooded they don't seem to do that much.

Have a shuffler that always gives you 2-5 lands in your opener (there are problems with this)


there is a big gap between changing the whole system and leaving everything exactly as is. It is also annoying to have a string of people who have never played any tcg other than mtg explaining how mtg's system is the best.

I don't think I ever said it was the best, I said I liked it better. And if this was about the difference between a system overhaul and doing nothing then I would be much more interested in what people have to say, but most of what everyone is saying is "I like the system from X I wish they used that instead"

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 07:11 PM
I don't think I ever said it was the best, I said I liked it better. And if this was about the difference between a system overhaul and doing nothing then I would be much more interested in what people have to say, but most of what everyone is saying is "I like the system from X I wish they used that instead"


"My thread's the best and what I have to say is the most important, pay attention to ME!"

Anyone who actually enjoys mana screw/flood is not worth my time.

Genocidal
05-25-2013, 07:11 PM
Hope they add a report button and get a few mods soon.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:12 PM
Anyone who actually enjoys mana screw/flood is not worth my time.

You just spent a good deal of time talking to me. Sucks to suck.

stiii
05-25-2013, 07:12 PM
Yeah stiii from what I've seen + heard, they wanted to try to make it a lot different than wowtcg first of all, in their videos it seems like they are really into the resource system they have going, and also that they have built a lot of things around it. Since the resource system is the foundation of a tcg like this. I really think it is a matter of if you just really can't stand it, don't play because it's not changing.

@ your 2nd post. I have watched videos of games like solforge and hearthstone where the resource philosophy is different, and I think mtg's has more depth and design power. With regard to wowtcg, I might like it more, who knows. Never played it. But I never will because I didn't want to get into another physical tcg after mtg for cost reasons, and especially not now after hex. I was interested in trying it, but also no one plays it round here.

I'm pretty sure the reason they want mtg's system over the wow system is to increase variance so that worse players will win more often. Which is probably the correct thing to do for overall game health, but people saying mtg's system is clearly without having played the other systems is rather absurd.

stiii
05-25-2013, 07:14 PM
I don't think I ever said it was the best, I said I liked it better. And if this was about the difference between a system overhaul and doing nothing then I would be much more interested in what people have to say, but most of what everyone is saying is "I like the system from X I wish they used that instead"


"My thread's the best and what I have to say is the most important, pay attention to ME!"

Well just because some people can't really argue doesn't mean that side's argument doesn't have merit. For example look at this guy you keep quoting......

Talreth
05-25-2013, 07:14 PM
I'm pretty sure the reason they want mtg's system over the wow system is to increase variance so that worse players will win more often. Which is probably the correct thing to do for overall game health, but people saying mtg's system is clearly without having played the other systems is rather absurd.

Okay well I am glad we are in agreement about that. I also think that the more it becomes easier to guarantee resources, the weaker cards will begin to be as it becomes easier to play stronger cards, but I have no evidence for this it just seems like that's how it would happen. And I've always been a fan of bombs.

jai151
05-25-2013, 07:27 PM
Guys, let's tone down the rancor a bit.

There are things you can suggest and have a chance of getting implemented. Champion skills, UI features, game modes, sure these have chance. Changing the fundamental base of the game, not so likely.

Remember, this game has been in development for 2+ years already. They've already done the lion's share of card balancing, and they've written the core game. The resource system they have is part of it. I appreciate you like other resource systems better, but you also have to appreciate that there are people who are quite fond of the system as CZE implemented it.

And you have to understand the amount of retesting, redesigning, and rebalancing that would go into such a fundamental change would likely set the game back months or, more likely, years.

I'm sorry you don't like the modified MTG style Crypto chose, but that is the resource system that will go forward.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 07:29 PM
I apologize for my bipolar disorder, I just took more medication. See you in the game guys :D

MasterPlan
05-25-2013, 08:10 PM
I do not like poker because I do not always get dealt a royal flush.

Talreth
05-25-2013, 08:16 PM
I do not like poker because I do not always get dealt a royal flush.

Well that's helpful

maniza
05-25-2013, 08:17 PM
mtg is the most popular tcg in existence ever. you might not like it but it certainly works and most people are fine with it.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 08:24 PM
I do not like poker because I do not always get dealt a royal flush.

This is a strawman jump honestly.
There is a difference between getting a bad hand and not even being able to play the game.

jai151
05-25-2013, 08:29 PM
This is a strawman jump honestly.
There is a difference between getting a bad hand and not even being able to play the game.

The secret to debate is that EVERY argument is a fallacy.

Hadin
05-25-2013, 09:40 PM
The secret to debate is that EVERY argument is a fallacy.

Speaking in absolutes? That's a paddlin'

Chance
05-25-2013, 09:52 PM
this is by far the worst thread on the forums, I'm more ashamed at tal for letting this shit show go on longer then it should. Someone needs to close this

Talreth
05-25-2013, 10:03 PM
this is by far the worst thread on the forums, I'm more ashamed at tal for letting this shit show go on longer then it should. Someone needs to close this

Well I agree it needs to be closed, but not that I'm solely to blame for letting it go on. It's not like I dectuple posted or something.

TheWrathofShane
05-25-2013, 10:10 PM
this is by far the worst thread on the forums, I'm more ashamed at tal for letting this shit show go on longer then it should. Someone needs to close this

Chance... go back under your rock please.

SomeoneRandom
05-26-2013, 12:46 AM
Sorry to bump this because this thread is miserable... However...

I have been playing card games for 16 years, there is a VERY low % of games that are strictly lost due to resource flooding or screwing. A lot of this is crafting your deck well, knowing the right amount of resources for each deck, its not just a strict 36/24 split for every deck, for different builds, metas etc I have seen ranges of 30/30 to 44/16. Taking out resources will give you a game like Hearthstone where the depth of the game is just lost.

Screwing/Flooding is a big problem for bad and new players, but honestly its something everyone has to go through and will make you a better player overall if you are able to look back at a game where you only hit 2-4 resources and see how you could have played around that better rather than just been frustrated and blamed your loss on luck.

Kalius
05-26-2013, 01:15 AM
Sorry to bump this because this thread is miserable... However...

I have been playing card games for 16 years, there is a VERY low % of games that are strictly lost due to resource flooding or screwing. A lot of this is crafting your deck well, knowing the right amount of resources for each deck, its not just a strict 36/24 split for every deck, for different builds, metas etc I have seen ranges of 30/30 to 44/16. Taking out resources will give you a game like Hearthstone where the depth of the game is just lost.

Screwing/Flooding is a big problem for bad and new players, but honestly its something everyone has to go through and will make you a better player overall if you are able to look back at a game where you only hit 2-4 resources and see how you could have played around that better rather than just been frustrated and blamed your loss on luck.

also it takes knowing how to shuffle correctly. if you just throw your lands on top of your deck and do a few shuffles between games, you're going to end up with pockets. Most people don't thoroughly shuffle their decks.

SomeoneRandom
05-26-2013, 01:27 AM
also it takes knowing how to shuffle correctly. if you just throw your lands on top of your deck and do a few shuffles between games, you're going to end up with pockets. Most people don't thoroughly shuffle their decks.

That is also somewhat true, sufficient randomization can be a problem for some people.

Thanisse
05-26-2013, 01:54 AM
what I am curious about , how will the randomisation be made in hex ?
I have quite bad experience with online TCGs randomization ... sometimes you just get a lot of stacked stupidity :))

traeki
05-26-2013, 02:01 AM
"Strawman child" is an awesome epithet I intend to use often in the future.

The rest of this thread is pointless. If you don't like the game, you certainly needn't play. But the resource system is arguably the most fundamental part of the game. There's zero chance it will be substantively changed two years into development. And for the record, the thing that drew me into Magic back in the day (::coughArabianNightscough::) was in fact the non-basic lands, and I'm clearly not alone.