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View Full Version : Anybody else worried about the difficulty of PvE Dungeons/Raids?



Brocsta876
05-26-2013, 08:06 PM
I'm hoping that they really keep the difficulty at a point where the dungeons aren't easy to clear mindlessly - you'll need to focus and have team work. The best difficulty I can think of is World of Warcraft when The Burning Crusade came out. The dungeons were challenging, even for a team of experienced players, and it took some work running through the dungeons to unlock the next one, to unlock the next, etc.

If they want PvE to be a huge thing they're going to have to really find that sweet spot for the difficulty. I hope it'll end up being tough and frustrating, TBH. But that pushes away the F2P casuals. It's a fine line, and I hope they can have something for everybody.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:08 PM
I am, I hope dungeons and raids are extremely difficult. Not all of them necessarily, but many of them. I'd prefer difficulty levels closer to original everquest than any wow dungeon ever... save original naxx, that was a pretty challenging one.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:08 PM
Also their multiple paths system sounds very good for tailoring the difficulty level to individuals, you can ignore hard objectives if you can't manage, or really go hardmode, that has a lot of promise.

Brocsta876
05-26-2013, 08:10 PM
I am, I hope dungeons and raids are extremely difficult. Not all of them necessarily, but many of them. I'd prefer difficulty levels closer to original everquest than any wow dungeon ever... save original naxx, that was a pretty challenging one.

I agree, but you just can't have that kind of difficulty anymore. Unfortunately they have to cater to the casual crowd too. Us experienced TCG players will have PvP to delve into, but people new to the genre would get too frustrated and just quit before trying again. I'd love it if we can have the best of both worlds but it's going to probably end up as a compromise. Maybe implement some sort of hardcore mode or something?

Brumby66
05-26-2013, 08:10 PM
I hope it's really difficult. I want to see slow progress on raids. It makes the eventual victory so much better.

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:11 PM
I thought the dungeons in release Rift were pretty difficult. But yeah as a "hardcore" PvE mmo player (and PvP) I hope I at least find them difficult the first time through.

Vibraxus
05-26-2013, 08:13 PM
Nope, I want them to be tough and difficult and challenging and kill me and hard to finish.....:p :) ;) very much BTW

Lazybum
05-26-2013, 08:15 PM
Nope, I want them to be tough and difficult and challenging and kill me and hard to finish.....:p :) ;) very much BTW

really agree with this, hard to finish would be nice instead of the usual carebear stance of let everyone see the content

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:16 PM
From the sound of it they have already got a handle on a pretty good system of having the best of both worlds, doing optional quests that affect the difficulty in one way or the other. Also, like the example in the kraken one, having to make sure you don't kill certain guys for the best results.

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:26 PM
Just wondered, do you think they will have heroics?

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:27 PM
Just wondered, do you think they will have heroics?

Only the ardent.

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:28 PM
Only the ardent.

I would say that heroism is a neutral term and can apply to both "good" and "bad" people/vennen/things.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:28 PM
I would say that heroism is a neutral term and can apply to both "good" and "bad" people/vennen/things.
I would say that is nonsense.

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:29 PM
I would say that is nonsense.

So there can't be any necrotic heroes? What word do you use then?

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:30 PM
Grand villainy?

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:31 PM
Archvillain? Doesn't matter much anyways, I want to play a coyotle :d

Skirovik
05-26-2013, 08:33 PM
I'm liking the way they are tracking with the optional "Hard Mode" type things. I don't want it to be super easy, but I don't want it to be head-bashing-wall hard either. Given the option of taking various routes to cater to your difficulty is definitely a positive thing. I hope they keep this system and do nothing but improve it! :D

Also, "Heroes/Heroic" is all a matter of perspective. If you are a "bad guy" and kill the "good guy" then in the eyes of your "bad guy minions" you are a hero.

darkbreaker
05-26-2013, 08:34 PM
If they are tuned somewhat like WoWTCG raids then we can expect a good challenge.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:34 PM
just because your evil minions idolize you as a master of evil doesn't necessarily make them see you as a hero. Perhaps only as someone to only attack while you're asleep.

Skirovik
05-26-2013, 08:37 PM
just because your evil minions idolize you as a master of evil doesn't necessarily make them see you as a hero. Perhaps only as someone to only attack while you're asleep.

As off-topic as this is, if your minions think to only attack you while you're asleep, you're doing it wrong. They should never think to attack you regardless. Be it either due to fear or idolization or loyalty etc.

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:38 PM
As off-topic as this is, if your minions think to only attack you while you're asleep, you're doing it wrong. They should never think to attack you regardless. Be it either due to fear or idolization or loyalty etc.

Except for goblins, never trust an Entrath goblin.

Gwaer
05-26-2013, 08:41 PM
except for goblins, never trust an entrath goblin.

qft

Talreth
05-26-2013, 08:41 PM
I mean I'm trusting a lot of people got bored waiting for more articles and read every lore section, right?

Banquetto
05-27-2013, 04:59 AM
There needs to be a good large range of difficulties between the easiest and hardest PvE content.

Because there will surely be a large range of effectiveness between a new player with a new player's deck, and an experienced vet with a finely honed deck loaded with rare cards and uber equipment from other raids, etc.

WWKnight
05-27-2013, 05:02 AM
Im hoping that raids will put up massive challenges, and that the concept of "progression" isnt just a foregone conclusion in Hex.

Khazrakh
05-27-2013, 05:05 AM
From what we've seen so far you have a lot of choices while running a dungeon.
That way they can offer an easy route to the end while still offering the hardocre challanges as side quests. Sounds like a great way to handle it to me.

Ashenor
05-27-2013, 05:31 AM
I hope they start as a challenge and get extremely hard, or at least have side quests that are very tough.

Think in terms of MMO progression, hard to beat until you get the loot (cards) from them that make's them easier as you refine your strategy.

Yasi
05-27-2013, 05:37 AM
The dungeons will be extremely easy to the point that it becomes similar to the Facebook games with daily quests.

Kietay
05-27-2013, 05:47 AM
Everyone always says they hope the PvE is really hard and then when it is everyone complains that it is too hard. I hope they make it so hard none of you can ever beat it!

Khazrakh
05-27-2013, 06:02 AM
Everyone always says they hope the PvE is really hard and then when it is everyone complains that it is too hard. I hope they make it so hard none of you can ever beat it!

That's quite right. At the moment most people commenting will be rather hardcore while most people playing will be rather casual.
As pointed out above, I hope there will be ways to please both sides.

chuckdeg
05-27-2013, 06:06 AM
I hope it's gonna be friggin hard too cause if not PVE won't have any appeal to me and many others. Screw the casual noobs.

TheWackyWombat
05-27-2013, 06:14 AM
That's quite right. At the moment most people commenting will be rather hardcore while most people playing will be rather casual.
As pointed out above, I hope there will be ways to please both sides.

I'm hoping that's why Cryptozoic is trying to achieve by allowing players to take multiple paths through dungeons/raids. The hardcore players can clear a dungeon and get amazing loot, but casual players can finish the linear path and still get rewarded.

Unfortunately we won't know for sure until they give us more information on how everything breaks down.

Jugan
05-27-2013, 06:50 AM
Nope. I want it to be as god damned hard as it possibly can be, while being interesting and fun. hardmore = only mode.

Redbeastmage
05-27-2013, 07:11 AM
Hardmode only will completely put off new players and kill the game super early.

I already had one friend who pulled their kickstarter pledge because they saw "3 losses and you are ejected from the dungeon" in the Kraken article. Coupled with the estimated dungeon length that has been thrown around (assuming if you even have to battle vs 1/2 the nodes in a dungeon it will be well over 1 hour), the idea of having to restart over 1 hour into a dungeon because of bad draws killed the game for them before they even played it.

maniza
05-27-2013, 07:18 AM
your friend was backing the wrong game for him. the game needs to be well balanced but no doubt that the end game has to be hard or else there is no fun in pve endgame. i hope that this game is hard and i also hope that you actualy need a raidleader in your party at some point.

Yasi
05-27-2013, 07:27 AM
People cried over the littliest things(pledge rewards), so it's safe to assume they'll cry once they find PvE to be too difficult or too long.

Ryoma_Echizen
05-27-2013, 07:27 AM
With dungeons as long as they have a decent story it'll be a good time. From what I understand they are casual friendly with achievements for the hardcore. Like beating a dungeon in 30 minutes or something. With 4x Spectral Lotus, PVE exclusives, and tons of booster pack cards I don't see how they make it challenging for hardcore players while giving new players any sort of chance. I see stupid stuff like turn 3 putting 6 Pack Raptors into play combos as the norm. Crypto will need to make sure the achievement system is extensive so players of all skill levels will be able to enjoy the dungeon content.

The raids I imagine will challenge by just switching things up. The boss can just put cards in play to make crazy situations. Like first you have to deal the boss 10 damage in the first 3 turns or he just wipes you with a flame breath, then the boss becomes immune to damage until you put 10 cards into his graveyard, then finally he becomes a Dragon and can only be dealt damage by creatures with flight or something. All the while minions are being sent and crazy things are happening left and right. As long as they find new ways to ensure decks facing them have to stay versatile and flexible to win I think it'll be awesome.

Redbeastmage
05-27-2013, 07:33 AM
I agree the END GAME should be difficult, and challenging. But entry level PvE shouldn't be so punishing that new players will get discouraged and quit, and 3 pages of this thread basically repeat the idea that "HARDMOD=ONLYMODE" or "Screw those carebear casuals". There's people who want the game to be hardmode from the word go, and that would be a cancer on the game. Casuals are the lifeblood of ever MMO and every successful MMO knows this.

Yasi
05-27-2013, 07:36 AM
EASY, NORMAL, HARD, and NIGHTMARE Mode for the same dungeons. Better rewards at harder dungeons.

Shepherd74
05-27-2013, 07:50 AM
There's people who want the game to be hardmode from the word go, and that would be a cancer on the game. Casuals are the lifeblood of ever MMO and every successful MMO knows this.

World of Warcraft, in general, could be argued to have been a tectonic shift away from the difficulty of Everquest. The biggest component of this was probably the complete lack of a death penalty in WoW. World of Warcraft itself just became easier and easier over time to a point where running dungeons was an exercise in fifteen minute speed runs to farm loot. With subs falling out of the game in droves now it could be argued that appealing to casual players alone has destroyed that game.

It's understandable that new players want to be given a challenge that is not punishing. That's why there were starter dungeons even in EQ1. But there is a fine line dividing starting off easy and basing your entire game around coddling players. Then it's just a loot slot machine that we are paying not with coins but in our time. And devalues the challenge that will make the game viable for years. They need to find that sweet spot.

Personally, I'd like to see a modest xp penalty for death on the PVE side. I'd like to see permanent losses in dungeons. I'd like too see lock outs. It should be fair, but punishing if you fail. Bring back caster evacuations as an ability to escape dungeons if things go south. Some of the best moments in any game was deciding when your team was going to die in the original EQ and calling for an 'evac'. Put that into Hex with the Raids and that would add an entirely new dimension into deciding to stay an push it or cutting your losses and running.

But they should also have some bunny slopes for your friend. With appropriate rewards for the level of challenge. No reason everyone can't have a challenge appropriate for their skill level. Making the entire PVE experience too easy is a surefire way to undermine the game. And referring to the challenge level that others want to play at as a "cancer" is juvenile. But while you are speaking for "every successful MMO" I suppose I can respect your thumos. Even if you understanding is flawed and shortsighted.

Daer
05-27-2013, 07:57 AM
No to xp penalties
No to permanent losses
No to lock outs.

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 08:04 AM
I think they should tier them, and curve the difficulty. First few dungeons would be easy with decent rewards, next few would be raid entry, past the learning phase and moderately hard, then a top tier of dungeons and raids that will be difficult, and nearly impossible to farm/grind, but with nice rewards.

So casuals can slowly improve, and hardcores can jump right in.

Talreth
05-27-2013, 08:19 AM
No to xp penalties
No to permanent losses
No to lock outs.

+1, I would really like them to just introduce heroics or stuff that would make things harder. Also I like Xena's idea of a difficulty curve, which is very likely something they'll do.

volkmar77
05-27-2013, 08:23 AM
First of all, Dungeons are solo affairs, no team work involved.
Secondly, they are ALL the PvE we have seen so far to the point that I wonder if they are the only PvE around.
Thirdly, they are not end game stuff, so having all dungeons hard would be counter productive as the first ones should be doable by a free player with his starter deck as that is the only way he can progress in the pve thing.

Should there be harder dungeons or modes? Absolutely. Should they be the norm? No, do not think so.

As for death penalties, I never liked them, the only thing they do is waste your time and time is quite valuable. I think the current penalty, 3 losses and you are out, paired with some mechanics we have heard that might permanently kill a card of your deck (for the duration of the dungeon) seems diffuclty enough for Vanilla dungeons.

Daer
05-27-2013, 08:27 AM
Well they have mentioned cities and quests so dungeons/raids aren't the only form of PVE.

Brumby66
05-27-2013, 08:31 AM
I think the more difficult endgame will be when players can become raid bosses. I'm still not sold on the AI yet. I hope the AI is really as effective as they are making it out to be.

stiii
05-27-2013, 10:15 AM
What exactly are people counting as difficult here? Is a long dungeon hard or do oyu want battles where the computer has a significant advantage?

Talreth
05-27-2013, 10:22 AM
What exactly are people counting as difficult here? Is a long dungeon hard or do oyu want battles where the computer has a significant advantage?

One where the computer has an advantage. I'd hate it to just be like a numbers game though, I want there to be mechanics you have to work around.

BenRGamer
05-27-2013, 10:31 AM
Eh, I just hope you can solo them. Dungeons will end up taking quite a long time, that's just a fact of the game, not everyone has that kind of time.

So, I figure finding groups will be more difficult than other MMOs simply due to the time investment required.

LordxMugen
05-27-2013, 10:37 AM
Im hoping a few of the raids are as hard as Molten Core and Magtheridon's Lair was in WoWTCG. now those were fun AND memorable.

HellFro
05-27-2013, 10:50 AM
CZE - Ignore this thread.

HellFro
05-27-2013, 10:51 AM
First of all, Dungeons are solo affairs, no team work involved.
Secondly, they are ALL the PvE we have seen so far to the point that I wonder if they are the only PvE around.
Thirdly, they are not end game stuff, so having all dungeons hard would be counter productive as the first ones should be doable by a free player with his starter deck as that is the only way he can progress in the pve thing.

Should there be harder dungeons or modes? Absolutely. Should they be the norm? No, do not think so.

As for death penalties, I never liked them, the only thing they do is waste your time and time is quite valuable. I think the current penalty, 3 losses and you are out, paired with some mechanics we have heard that might permanently kill a card of your deck (for the duration of the dungeon) seems diffuclty enough for Vanilla dungeons.

Except for this one...

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 10:53 AM
CZE - Ignore this thread.

I am not sure exactly why they should - care to explain? I don't see any terrible ideas that wouldn't be ignored anyway.

MrCwis
05-27-2013, 11:06 AM
There need to be a curve in the dungeons, for the free PVE player all they'll have for the first dungeon is there starter deck so it ccan't be that difficult to beat. Now the raids those i expect to be hard and require the three people to work together.

Tyrfang
05-27-2013, 11:35 AM
I highly doubt that dungeons will be the first thing you jump into as a PvE player with just a starter deck.

Like any other MMO, there will most likely be cities, questlines, and some story/background that leads you into a dungeon.

HellFro
05-27-2013, 11:37 AM
I am not sure exactly why they should - care to explain? I don't see any terrible ideas that wouldn't be ignored anyway.

i mean. the idea that people who've paid for the KS (assumption: that most on the forum are invested in the game) and are getting a huge leg up in exclusive PVE & PVP cards and mega booster discount are the right critics to decide how hard a game should be for a F2P game.

HellFro
05-27-2013, 11:41 AM
CZE - do your thing!

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 12:16 PM
i mean. the idea that people who've paid for the KS (assumption: that most on the forum are invested in the game) and are getting a huge leg up in exclusive PVE & PVP cards and mega booster discount are the right critics to decide how hard a game should be for a F2P game.

Um, having played both paid and f2p games, there HAS to be a difficulty increase at some point, or people get bored and quit.

That is exactly why I suggested going from newbie dungeons into hardcore dungeons and raids in a curve - and unlike things like WoW, I think yo ucan scatter low level raids in there no problem, and have dungeons harder than high level raids etc, not to mention 'heroic' versions (where maybe you have a set mechanic that you have to deal with, or fail, even if you beat the boss.)

I don't see how anything listed here is a bad idea, and I think you should probably stop giving CZE orders based on your own bias. If you don't like the ideas, give your own to counter and try to balance things, instead of claiming everything here is bad.

Madican
05-27-2013, 12:40 PM
You seriously don't see how the mindset of "screw casuals" is a bad idea?

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 12:51 PM
You seriously don't see how the mindset of "screw casuals" is a bad idea?

How is a difficulty curve screwing over casuals? I am not saying 2 easy dungeons and 50 hardcore dungeons, I am suggesting a nice balanced mix - and in no way should it be only avialable to hardcore players. How do you think casuals end up as hardcore people? Time spent playing, learning, and trying the harder content after a while, until they got good at it. And the whole point of a TCG is to get better at playing, or at least have fun.

And if people can 2-man the raids, they could also 3-man it with a casual friend, to help them out. I don't see how this would negatively impact anyone - but if you have absolutely no harcore content, you will lose players.

Tyrfang
05-27-2013, 12:56 PM
Somewhat off-topic:

You need some sort of end-game that doesn't get perceived as a heavy grind, and the content track to lead players to the endgame.

Player-made raid decks and keep defense could be a potential self-sustaining endgame, as long as they keep providing new cards.

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 01:02 PM
No, you are right, not having to grind on the same content would be a huge selling point. And player made stuff can range many dificulties, from laughably weak to incredibly strong.

But you have to have content for everyone, you can't just pick one and decide they get everything. I hope the raid decks and keep defence are somewhat open to casuals (to be in control of said elements, not play against them.)

maniza
05-27-2013, 01:32 PM
everyone who invests enough time in this game will want some kind end game so they need to make something hard enough to support that

Lazybum
05-27-2013, 01:38 PM
tho with a new set every 3-4 months it will be hard to pump out just as many dungeons and raids to support the pve cards side of it as well

Tyrfang
05-27-2013, 01:40 PM
Fortunately dungeons in this game are easier to make than dungeons in other MMOs.
Raids as well.

Although, I'm not sure how the tuning will be done.

GhundiPI
05-27-2013, 03:44 PM
In think the difficulty in Hex PvE should be found in the mechanics of a dungeon/raid. What little we have been shown of the Kraken dungeon already gives a good example. And since it is a digital game, this can be expanded on almost endlessly. For those who have played the Lord of the Rings LCG, think those kind of quests on steroids...

But there should also be a reason for mercenaries to exist. Whether this is due faction issues (unable to do a dungeon which shares your own faction), or due to a dungeon mechanic which makes it impossible for your current champion to win. Leveling and equiping a mercenary could be a part of the difficulty in PvE.

Combine that with the standard MMO difficulty increase (more health, damage, etc) and it is possible to generate a large variation of dungeons to keep PvE content fresh and challenging for a long time.

RoyalNightGuard
05-27-2013, 04:59 PM
I take the existence of the spectral lotus as an indicator that some dungeons/raids at least will be so hard you'll need them to win.

Avedecus
05-27-2013, 05:06 PM
I seriously doubt any of the dungeons are tuned with Spectral Lotus in mind. That would be a massive kick to the nuts to anyone coming to the game after the KS.

RedAntler
05-27-2013, 06:42 PM
everyone who invests enough time in this game will want some kind end game so they need to make something hard enough to support that

Uh how about the glory of PvP?

Let's not forget that this is a TCG game

Xenavire
05-27-2013, 06:55 PM
Uh how about the glory of PvP?

Let's not forget that this is a TCG game

The very nature of PvE is that it is seperate from PvP. PvP cannot be the only endgame. It should be attractive, but not the only thing left.

BenRGamer
05-27-2013, 08:50 PM
I take the existence of the spectral lotus as an indicator that some dungeons/raids at least will be so hard you'll need them to win.

That... would be pretty stupid considering anyone who joins Hex later won't have them.

RoyalNightGuard
05-27-2013, 09:28 PM
I seriously doubt any of the dungeons are tuned with Spectral Lotus in mind. That would be a massive kick to the nuts to anyone coming to the game after the KS.


That... would be pretty stupid considering anyone who joins Hex later won't have them.
Of course they will, they'll get them from the AH.

funktion
05-27-2013, 09:31 PM
I'll worry when I see it, till then not gonna say the sky is falling. Although I do expect it to be much easier than I'd like it to be...

BenRGamer
05-27-2013, 09:41 PM
I'll worry when I see it, till then not gonna say the sky is falling. Although I do expect it to be much easier than I'd like it to be...

That's not even about fine tuning the difficulty at all, that's just wanton greed to exploit new players.