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View Full Version : LFG looking for group .. Have gearscore over 9000!!!



Milamber
05-27-2013, 08:13 PM
Ok,
So during one of the many moments during the day that my mind is dominated by the awesome that is to to be HEX!
Listed as hot tips but I'd love to see if CZE has any response or acknowledgement and encourage community suggestion and discussion.

Was thinking that with CZE focus on social interactions there should be some good extended Clan mentality.
#hot tip 1 - CZE concider guild alliances, where limited alliances can be made that allows ppl to stay in guild but clan up, say guildchat channel includes alliance guilds etc. not full integration ie banks etc just the surface social aspects.

But regardless I'm sure we will spend some time in a global chat channel spamming a looking for group message for a certain multi person dungeon, probably listing you current progress in their and deck synnergies for the place!
#hot tip 2 - have a way to inspect if a person A) has the experience and/or deck level that is required to accompany you on your epic journey. B) that they have a deck synergy or included said dungeon card drops required to fit into your travelling group

Obviously you don't want to encourage "include only elitist" mentality.
But it's as or more important that 2 ppl picking up a 3rd don't have their time wasted if the 3rd person has spent no time or thought into preparation of the goal and because there is no measure you only find out after wasting time and getting wiped out of the raid/dungeon.

Based on MMO experience I never had a problem with say Gearscore in wow because if you participated socially in the game a person in raid normally was aware of you or one of your alts (other champions in this case) and could vouch for your competence... Because we all know when it comes to getting out of the fire competencey > than Gear score.
It also allowed you to compensate say on a timer fight you'd know that you needed a combined DPS of at least X. A damage meter would let you adjust your team to take a guildie that was lower ranked because you had the guilds über awesome rogue "IBS McStabby" that would pick up the slack.

Sooo I've thrown the hot chips to the seagulls... Discuss.
Like to hear ppl's thoughts.

Kietay
05-27-2013, 08:19 PM
Yes yes, I hope they have a lot of ways to interact with people for double the adventure.

P.S. There is no such thing as elitism. If you exclude people based on quality you are simply screening for quality.

Madican
05-27-2013, 08:19 PM
I don't really understand what you're trying to say, but if it has anything to do with Gearscore-type things then I am going to say hell no.

Gearscore was the worst part of Wrath. You couldn't run a PUG raid unless you already outgeared it and needed nothing.

MrCwis
05-27-2013, 08:21 PM
I would think experience might be a good way to go. Obviously there should be some way to search for people and while it would suck to be passed over for someone who is more experienced, it would be worst if you lost because someone you picked up misplayed and ruined your chances at winning. Maybe setting a queue limit to x experience where the maximum x is your experience level or the lowest in your current party, so that you are pair with someone equally or great than you, then you also won't be paired with people who have set the limit higher than your experience either.

Hibbert
05-27-2013, 08:55 PM
P.S. There is no such thing as elitism. If you exclude people based on quality you are simply screening for quality.

The "elitism" hinted at in the OP absolutely exists and is horrible. Gearscore was a prime example. In theory, it was useful. But the vast majority of people used it to exclude perfectly capable people because of a number.

I don't ever want raid content to be so tightly tuned in Hex that we see things like "LFM Big Raid Boss1, need sapphire/blood control deck, must have 4xExpensive Legendary card and all equipment. KS raid leaders only. link cheeve".

Mike411
05-27-2013, 09:00 PM
ITT: Gearscore for Hex. No thanks... if during the first fight you're uncomfortable with the person's play, then leave.

d00dz
05-27-2013, 09:56 PM
I can totally see this happening: "LFR Raid Leader or Grand King and up! Must have XXXXX Promo Card."

Tyrfang
05-27-2013, 11:18 PM
I raided in WotLK. I wish there was a skill score in WoW's gear score mods.
Regularly did 3rd or so in DPS with the worst gear score in the raid.

Quit raiding when the guild leader put me on standby because we had "too many Rogues..."

Genocidal
05-27-2013, 11:41 PM
Your post says you don't want to encourage an elitist attitude after suggestions that encourage an elitist attitude. I hope that we don't get a system like this because it brings out the worst in people.

Rapkannibale
05-28-2013, 12:08 AM
Don't think this is a good idea. The point of a TCG and especially the PvE part of hex is about experimentation in an almost sandbox environment to create unique decks and strategies. Having people start requiring certain decks or cards to join them goes against the core of the game.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 12:27 AM
Don't think this is a good idea. The point of a TCG and especially the PvE part of hex is about experimentation in an almost sandbox environment to create unique decks and strategies. Having people start requiring certain decks or cards to join them goes against the core of the game.

In certain parts of the game sure, but raids? I have no doubts that friends and guildmembers are going to design synergistic decks to take on raids, especially as they get tougher.

In fact, I think it would actually suck if all raids were beatable with any random assortment of decks, and no teams had to put in thought on how to use decks that work best together to win.

As to how to solve the problem of people feeling excluded, and calls for only the people with the best gear and/or kickstarter perks, I have no idea.

Voices
05-28-2013, 12:36 AM
As much as I hate the kind of 'You need X, Y, Z, otherwise you are out'-attitude, it is of course based on the very natural idea that if you don't have X, Y, Z you simply will not be able to perform the task at hand. Something is clearly needed for dificult PvE stuff that can deal with that fact, be that in Hex or in WoW or what have you. I mean, would it be wrong and stupid to ask for a person with a partiuclar type of deck if it is known that a certain Boss is vulnerable to said type of deck?

But then again, as with so many topics here on the forums pre-Beta, I feel that if CZE haven't thought about this stuff, then there is something seriously wrong.

I am not entirely sure whether I understand this sentiment:


Don't think this is a good idea. The point of a TCG and especially the PvE part of hex is about experimentation in an almost sandbox environment to create unique decks and strategies. Having people start requiring certain decks or cards to join them goes against the core of the game.

Are you effectively suggesting that you have to approach the game in certain manner? And are you saying that there is a core of the game and that people are mistaken if they fail to see/play according to that core?

WSzaboPeter
05-28-2013, 01:56 AM
Even if such thing will not be build into the game, I'm quite sure 3rd party mods/addons or websites/webapps will do something similar as Gearscore.

Gen91
05-28-2013, 02:20 AM
In fact, I think it would actually suck if all raids were beatable with any random assortment of decks, and no teams had to put in thought on how to use decks that work best together to win.

I think you can beat every raid with not synergistic decks, but they told us (don't know where)
that you will get more loot/gold when you clear the whole dungeon, before beating the end boss.

I think this could resemble some kind of hardmode,
where you need to defeat a certain kind of pre boss to get the full loot at the end
and to defeat him you need a special deck/card/synergy or what ever.

Mike411
05-28-2013, 02:33 AM
Even if such thing will not be build into the game, I'm quite sure 3rd party mods/addons or websites/webapps will do something similar as Gearscore.

Those mods/addons would need to pull their information from somewhere though. If I keep my information private and CZE doesn't leak it out, those mods couldn't show you anything. The gearscore mod was created to exploit the fact that all of your gear, gems, enchants, achievements, and certain other stats in world of warcraft are viewable to everyone no matter what. It may not be the same with Hex.

Banquetto
05-28-2013, 03:26 AM
Gearscore was the worst part of Wrath. You couldn't run a PUG raid unless you already outgeared it and needed nothing.

I think you meant to type "you couldn't get somebody else to organize and lead a PUG raid for you unless you already outgeared it".

Of course you could always put in the hard work of organizing a group, spamming for members, balancing classes, etc. etc. yourself.

Fireblast
05-28-2013, 03:29 AM
We're talking about 3 players team with nothing to lose but time, there doesn't seem to be lockdowns either.

~

Kietay
05-28-2013, 05:36 AM
There is no reason not to have information available. If you personally dont care who you play with then play with anyone. There is no reason to restrict the more serious players from forming the groups they want without having to do trial and error with everyone who wants to play to find someone who is as serious as they are.

I've seen people complain in every MMO how they get excluded because of a system like this but I have never experienced it at all. There will always be more casual players than hardcore players and always more groups willing to accept most people than exclude them. Don't waste the time of the few people who want to do it efficiently.

Genocidal
05-28-2013, 05:40 AM
There is no reason not to have information available. If you personally dont care who you play with then play with anyone. There is no reason to restrict the more serious players from forming the groups they want without having to do trial and error with everyone who wants to play to find someone who is as serious as they are.

I've seen people complain in every MMO how they get excluded because of a system like this but I have never experienced it at all. There will always be more casual players than hardcore players and always more groups willing to accept most people than exclude them. Don't waste the time of the few people who want to do it efficiently.

"Because it's never happened to me, it must not be an issue" isn't a great way to look at an issue that definitely happens. If you want to be in a group where you know exactly what the other people are playing, you should look into joining a "hardcore" guild.

Kietay
05-28-2013, 05:53 AM
No. More options are always better. If you don't have the skill/cards someone is looking for they will simply leave the game and try again. You still wont be getting carried by them. There is absolutely no reason to waste someones time like this.

People need to lose the mindset that it is wrong to exclude someone because of their ability. If you have a specific goal in mind you should have the available tools you need to form a group and achieve that goal in the way you want.

Genocidal
05-28-2013, 05:57 AM
The problem is that Gearscore and similar systems don't show a player's ability, so you're excluding people based on an arbitrary number.

Kietay
05-28-2013, 05:59 AM
In an MMO Gear is a large part of your ability. Not all of it, but sorry to say that MMOs arent the most skill intensive games. If anyone wants to try and see if someone is ok with less optimal gear they are always free to. Since it is the only thing you can find out about someone without playing with them, it should be available.

Genocidal
05-28-2013, 06:06 AM
But Hex isn't a traditional MMO, and I'd argue it's more TCG with some MMO conventions. Would you argue that TCGs are not very skill intensive, and that given the same deck/"gear" that a low skill player will be nearly as effective as a high skill player?

jai151
05-28-2013, 06:10 AM
What number would you even measure?

Genocidal
05-28-2013, 06:23 AM
That was actually going to be my next point. :)

I haven't played competitive Magic for years now, but I can't think of a good way to measure a deck's "power" with any measurements that aren't a full deck list. While there were decks that relied on having a lot of expensive rares (Bargain) some of the best decks from when I played were full of commons and uncommons (Rebel, U/G Madness, 'Tog, Affinity), so using a rarity percentage doesn't make much sense. Mana curve? Not really interesting or informative, and easy to have a good one even with a trash deck.

Ryoma_Echizen
05-28-2013, 06:56 AM
I think some sort of method that lets you show off gear if you want is essential. When I get my phat lewts I'd like people to see them. That said people should have the option of hiding their gear or showing them to select people. Especially for raids, gear is an easy way to show people what sort of deck you play without having to type out an entire decklist.

PUGing won't be as prevalent due to there being only 3 members max in a raid group. Players will form groups based on people they get to know through the game rather than PUG with a random. The gear mechanic also incentivizes players to play with people that will be more willing to trade them gear they receive. You'll see a ton of players join guilds just so they can earn dkp for use on a particular legendary item drop. With say 100 or 200 legendary items in the loot tables and a week cooldown on raids, desirable legendaries would fetch exorbitant prices on the AH and be out of reach for the f2p players unless they joined a guild.

RobHaven
05-28-2013, 08:40 AM
I was a solid player in WoW - I regularly was a top DPS contributor despite not farming gear, I never aggro'd when I shouldn't, I took minimal damage, etc. I was also a very good Magic and poker player, and in the case of both games I didn't need the best cards to win. The point I'm trying to make, is that if skills in similar games can be touted as a Hex credential, I think I'll do alright at this game.

Without reservation, I have no issues rejecting any idea of a gear score. I hate that mentality; I hate the idea of people needing to grind to have the goods to be worth your time so they can grind with you. I won't support it. I hated it in WoW when people were left out because they didn't have enough purple on, and I hated it in Magic when younger players (with no bankroll) were laughed at because of their deck composition. How does this foster a sense of unity? How does this promote the community? If no one is willing to reach down to the "lowly n00bs," how are any of them supposed to learn what they need to learn and acquire what they need to acquire?

Gamers - from my experience - are aholes. Sure, there are plenty of nice people out there, but there are so many rotten apples that the bunch has been thoroughly spoiled. Is your time so precious that you can't risk an unsuccessful run in a raid? Are other players not deserving of the chance to prove that - gearscore be damned - they have the chops to hang with the big dogs? Or at the very least, they deserve the chance to prove they have the desire and willingness to *learn*.

I'm only one guy, and I make up a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of Hex players. I think it stands to reason, though, that I'll do pretty well out there. And if I do, I'm not going to scoff at the misfits below me. I'm going to use my perks, my knowledge, and my understanding of strategy/mechanics to help those players come along. And I'm not going to give them a hard time while I do it.

Some of you talk about carrying like it's some great burden. I see it as the opposite. It's an honor - and it's *fun* - to do the carrying. When my brother and I took on a 2-on-6 in the WoW BGs, we took that group of 6 down to their last man; the rest of our team was struggling, but our ability to carry the team gave us one of our most memorable WoW moments (and BG victories). Or playing 3-on-3 in Magic and being the deck that stood between loss and victory - why is that such a bad thing? In order for you to have those experiences and for you to be that hero among champions, you need to be willing to play with people who might not be where you're at or - god forbid! - new to the game.

This was long - my bad on that. Let me give you the "TL;DR" version:
Get off your high horse.*


*I only took mine out of the stable so I could speak to you on your level, but it goes back in after this.

Rapkannibale
05-28-2013, 09:00 AM
Are you effectively suggesting that you have to approach the game in certain manner? And are you saying that there is a core of the game and that people are mistaken if they fail to see/play according to that core?

Not at all. I was saying the opposite. I think there should many different ways of beating a raid encounter for example not just: you have to use this deck with this and this deck otherwise you can't beat it.

Apologies if you felt I was imposing my view of the game on you.

Kilo24
05-28-2013, 09:27 AM
I'd imagine that the best way to do something similar would be to have some method of displaying achievements like trophies in a profile or titles that would be earned from PVE content. If the player could, say, show his 3-5 hardest achievements such that everyone could see them easily, then his skill as a player could be judged quickly. Checking what the player had accomplished would be both a lot easier than measuring deck effectiveness and more effective at displaying what gearscore was intended to measure: competence.

That approach should work more effectively than in standard MMOs as long as the challenges exist and award achievements. Solo content is (hopefully) going to be more about overcoming challenge than grinding, and it's much harder to be carried in a 3-man-raid than a 25-man raid.

Punk
05-28-2013, 09:49 AM
But regardless I'm sure we will spend some time in a global chat channel spamming a looking for group message for a certain multi person dungeon, probably listing you current progress in their and deck synnergies for the place!
#hot tip 2 - have a way to inspect if a person A) has the experience and/or deck level that is required to accompany you on your epic journey. B) that they have a deck synergy or included said dungeon card drops required to fit into your travelling group

I know I am going to have multiple decks to play. Some of those decks I would not want someone to be able to right-click on my name and see (IE: Decks used for Tournaments). Some of those decks may be tuned towards specific PvE Raids as opposed to others, I'm sure.

If you found someone who you want to run as your 3rd in a Raid, why is it so hard to simply ask them what decks they have available, if they have done this before, what synergies they are bringing to the group, etc?



Obviously you don't want to encourage "include only elitist" mentality.
But it's as or more important that 2 ppl picking up a 3rd don't have their time wasted if the 3rd person has spent no time or thought into preparation of the goal and because there is no measure you only find out after wasting time and getting wiped out of the raid/dungeon.

You state that you want some way of viewing a users profile so you can judge if they are capable of being a 3rd person for your Raid or not.. and then you say "Obviously you don't want to encourage 'include only elitist' mentality". This is exactly what your suggestion promotes.

You don't have <Variable A>, or you don't have <Variable B> on your account when I view your profile, I'm going to find someone else.

Again, why can't you just talk to the person you were considering having as your 3rd?


The "elitism" hinted at in the OP absolutely exists and is horrible. Gearscore was a prime example. In theory, it was useful. But the vast majority of people used it to exclude perfectly capable people because of a number.

I don't ever want raid content to be so tightly tuned in Hex that we see things like "LFM Big Raid Boss1, need sapphire/blood control deck, must have 4xExpensive Legendary card and all equipment. KS raid leaders only. link cheeve".

Well said.

Punk
05-28-2013, 09:54 AM
What number would you even measure?

Maybe some type of PvE rating system? For example, you start at 1500, whenever you die in a PvE encounter, you lose PvE rating points (you lose more at a higher rating). You can only build up rating by doing dungeons until 1800, and after that, they would net you 0 rating for completing them. After 1800, raids would still net you rating points.

Just a thought.. but this would, again, have some negative effect on the community: "LF1M, Endgame Raid, 1850+ PvE Rating."

Tyrfang
05-28-2013, 10:04 AM
If they have an AI capable of making enemy raid decks, they probably can evaluate the approximate power level of your deck just by having the AI simulate games.

Milamber
05-28-2013, 10:20 AM
Cool responses thanks to all for contributions..
Definitely a vast subject matter

First things first
Tip -1 The social stuff Has CZE given any clues or indication of any of the social tools at this point?
I think the raw idea about allowing Guilds to create clan alliances of some form is gold it allows a small number of semi casual guilds to interact in an organised manner that should reduce the need for ppl leaving a guild that they enjoy socially but their own gaming schedule may not fit organised play times... I'd like to see the ease of social interaction allowing for an emersive social interaction that encouraged and introduced you to people that were like minded to your playstyle.

GearScorefor those that dont know "GearScore" was a World of WarCraft mod that allowed a numeric value representative of your gear quality to be seen by others. In WoW the benefit was that certain end game content was virtually impossible to survive if you didn’t have gear AND PLAY ABILITY (not measured by GearScore). But some people chose to use it to ask for ridiculous ratings for standard encounters or low level dungeons just because they were lazy or because they were simply #@$%’s
I totally get where the concerns are about how the example i used of GearScore was abused. But i equally saw those that handled it incorrectly getting called out. (this was likely different to the culture of different servers)
But at some level this mechanic will exist in game, whether its by limiting content by experience level, linear progression or achievement or by some more complicated mechanic its in all games. But CZE will have a guiding hand on this and will have answer's to questions we don't even have yet.


P.S. There is no such thing as elitism. If you exclude people based on quality you are simply screening for quality.
LoL yea made me laugh, the world can be too PC conscious.... problem is you can get ppl that set a ridiculous requirement when its not needed, its like the old argument the tool doesn’t kill people, people kill people. GearScore was a tool some didn’t use it responsibly.
If everybody would approach things with balance it would be a none issue, but that’s never going to be the case. It's a community based game, there’s times you want to be surrounded be your peers that challenge you to better your game id like to know i can evaluate that without having to offend someone by giving them an inquisitorial interview. Everybody should also aim to allow time to include and lead by example for those that aren’t experienced too, we all started out somewhere. Some forget that


ITT: Gearscore for Hex. No thanks... if during the first fight you're uncomfortable with the person's play, then leave.
Yea agreed but playing advocate, isnt that a waste of everyones time if it could sometimes be avoided without wasting an attempt?


I raided in WotLK. I wish there was a skill score in WoW's gear score mods.Regularly did 3rd or so in DPS with the worst gear score in the raid.Quit raiding when the guild leader put me on standby because we had "too many Rogues..."
Yea that sux man, my main was a rogue there always seemed to be an abundance of melee DPS 
If it wasn’t a case of last one in, first one out. You would have prob been better elsewhere anyway. A good DPS rogue has to be raid aware because we were so squishy, that awareness and use of counters etc was appreciated by many. Hope you found another group


Your post says you don't want to encourage an elitist attitude after suggestions that encourage an elitist attitude. I hope that we don't get a system like this because it brings out the worst in people.
No im saying that #1 is good social and guild tools that let you friend list and keep track of people you get along with in the game should encourage you to participate in an enlarged and expanding group of community. Your right that it can bring out the worst in people but so too you would see bad eggs blowing up and abusing someone for not running something correctly if there was no mechanics to prevent someone from the extreme case where they have unmetered access to an area the simply should not be in.
Behind that there does need to be a mechanic its not an issue and shouldn’t be for early game content but think about it when you get further in to what is hopefully high end multi attempt fun to chip away at content and your limited to 3 attempts you don’t want to waste one of those attempts on someone that “yea mate im like fully sick I do this raid with my eyes closed” until you get in there and they bail or you find out they have no idea. I mean just the fact that the champions level up is a method of qualification that CZE will probably use to limit what you can participate in…. Personally I hope they mix in a combination of story evolution and timelines to compliment this qualification so that as much as possible it doesn’t come down to “a number”


Don't think this is a good idea. The point of a TCG and especially the PvE part of hex is about experimentation in an almost sandbox environment to create unique decks and strategies. Having people start requiring certain decks or cards to join them goes against the core of the game.
I get your point, this is exactly what CZE should be about but I think also that at times will be exactly this uniqueness that tailors a specific requirement for synergy with the players you partner with to overcome a hurdle or that a specific road to a raid boss will drop loot that by design is mechanically designed to have your deck compliment the developing specific scenarios. But like you say I wouldn’t want a certain exact deck to be a pre req. Im hoping with all the vastly unique PVE stuff we’ve seen that this could not be the case.


In certain parts of the game sure, but raids? I have no doubts that friends and guildmembers are going to design synergistic decks to take on raids, especially as they get tougher.

In fact, I think it would actually suck if all raids were beatable with any random assortment of decks, and no teams had to put in thought on how to use decks that work best together to win.

As to how to solve the problem of people feeling excluded, and calls for only the people with the best gear and/or kickstarter perks, I have no idea.
Yup a better variation of what I just tried to articulate. AS well as escalating difficulty theres the unique completion elements that we will want to go for too… it should be expected that these things won’t be as simple as be aware of it and done. I hope, no expect that the escalation and unique challenges will take many reruns over many weeks trying and teasing the performance and strategies I personally and the group as a whole take on.
As for the answer I cannot think of anything better than self-regulation by the wider community, if someone knocks you back ask in global chat maybe there is other content that your better off covering first. Alternatively some one might grab you by the scruff and say come with me, lets do this!


…..But then again, as with so many topics here on the forums pre-Beta, I feel that if CZE haven't thought about this stuff, then there is something seriously wrong.[QUOTE]
Yea, with the caliber they have in the stables id love to have an insight to some of the brainstorming they’ve done on subject such as these. I’m interested if when the game comes to light whether we can speculate accurately on some of these things in the light of day.

[QUOTE=WSzaboPeter;227624]Even if such thing will not be build into the game, I'm quite sure 3rd party mods/addons or websites/webapps will do something similar as Gearscore.
Addons… hmm lets not get started.
I think its unlikely CZE will have an open source UI but definitely an interesting thought.
@ Gen91
Yea I do hope that they maximize continued replay value of the content by adding hardmode variations, though I hope that dungeons do ramp up to need synergized decks otherwise it comes down to a simple mechanic of luck of the draw when it boils down to it, that could get unispiring. That’s not to say that you couldn’t adjust your deck theme to win. It similarly shouldn’t always be 1 deck only wins.


I think you meant to type "you couldn't get somebody else to organize and lead a PUG raid for you unless you already outgeared it". Of course you could always put in the hard work of organizing a group, spamming for members, balancing classes, etc. etc. yourself.
lol harsh but there is a relevant message, you only get out what you put in. It can be a different perspective when you are herding the cats. Not saying it was the case with you Banquetto.

Milamber
05-28-2013, 10:21 AM
We're talking about 3 players team with nothing to lose but time, there doesn't seem to be lockdowns either.
I thought there were lock outs or did I read more into the talk about 3 attempts than I should have
@ Kietay and Genocidal
As ive said it was my experience that GS only ever excluded me a few times and being confident in my own abilities I was able to shirk it off as your bad luck buddy, it riled me a little if I had limited time to play and didn’t want to PUG the group myself. (usually cause I was on pc whilst housemates watching TV or something) but it was satisfying to see them in channel later trying to Look for more 75% through. After id grouped and run the same thing successfully even after having started later.
MMO Skill intensive?:
I dunno, id disagree in part. Depending on the Boss mechanic and your class, (hunters looking at you) being lazy or not listening to instruction id include under player skill and makes up a high component of effectiveness you can be gearerd to buggery but if you don’t maximize you on boss, tanking or heals time you’ll suck. I’d watch the 1st boss fight carefully and if someone wasn’t repeatedly wasn’t listening or not pulling their weight id chat to them privately to establish the issue but if there wasn’t a show of awareness I don’t mind saying id warn them then kick them rather than waste 24 other peoples time after you got to appoint that getting a replacement became difficult.


What number would you even measure?
Exactly im interested in what people suggest CZE might use generically,
As I’ve said I’d expect that they build in availability of content to be tied into a number of things that are a part of 90% of games out there that people arent even conscious of.
IE
Story progression
Champions experience
Achievements
Map/Dungeon Penetration (ie can’t join someone on boss fight till you have cleared the map path to that area.)
Unique content like a dwarven vault. might have a lore story req that a golem bars passage unless you are wearing a dwarven forged metal item in each equipment slot



Some of you talk about carrying like it's some great burden. I see it as the opposite. It's an honor - and it's *fun* - to do the carrying. When my brother and I took on a 2-on-6 in the WoW BGs, we took that group of 6 down to their last man; the rest of our team was struggling, but our ability to carry the team gave us one of our most memorable WoW moments (and BG victories). Or playing 3-on-3 in Magic and being the deck that stood between loss and victory - why is that such a bad thing? In order for you to have those experiences and for you to be that hero among champions, you need to be willing to play with people who might not be where you're at or - god forbid! - new to the game.

You make good and valid points, especially the carrying. Gaming certainly brings out some hero behavior behind anonymity. I prescribe to this school of thought, I guess im a socialist gamer. I certainly did well more than my share both within guild and without. But equally to those that lord there are scabs that just want to ride coat tails and not participate, that mentality is just as bad if not as frustrating as they are exactly the people that don’t in turn help those novice to themselves. Saw this all the time.
Every Yin has its yang and it takes all types to a good mix make.
In regards to enough purple on, yes upto mid level content it shouldn’t exclude but if someone was PUG’ing a few spots for heroic T.O.C. Coliseum fight back in the day. its just plain bad form to put your hand up request a spot unless your not as purple as Barney.

PS liked the horse ref lol
PSS if you thought that was long, get a load of this one.

There is no single right way for any of this speculation but its interesting to hear the different perspectives.

Turtlewing
05-28-2013, 10:22 AM
If they have an AI capable of making enemy raid decks, they probably can evaluate the approximate power level of your deck just by having the AI simulate games.

Well they have AIDA to help you build decks. Presumably she's got some internal quality score used to evaluate the pile of cards you give her to evaluate.

The main problem with that would be that Raids are likely to be a different animal than the rest of the game. As an example: I once made a MtG deck with no win conditions (just counters, threat neutralization, and life gain). It literally could not win on it's own except by my opponent forfeiting or milling themselves. But it was awesome in team multiplayer because it had so much board control it could almost completely shut down 2 players or heavily harass 3, leaving them open for my teammate(s) to finish off.

AIDA would need to give a deck like that a bad score evaluated in a vacuum as it literally can't win. But in a Raid having one such deck along is likely to be standard procedure (rater like bringing a healer and a tank).

Mike411
05-28-2013, 10:44 AM
Yea agreed but playing advocate, isnt that a waste of everyones time if it could sometimes be avoided without wasting an attempt?

It's only a waste of time if you could say "well if I knew he had didn't have X cards or X achievements then I would've known it was impossible to complete the raid with him" - which you can never say, because it'll never be *impossible* to beat a raid. A "gearscore" system is bad because it encourages people to "wait for someone better" instead of forming groups that are perfectly capable of completing a raid - and since you can't measure skill by gearscore you have no guarantee anyone is better than anyone else.

Punk
05-28-2013, 11:12 AM
Well they have AIDA to help you build decks. Presumably she's got some internal quality score used to evaluate the pile of cards you give her to evaluate.

I really expect this to be basic in the sense that it will analyze the cards you give it and tell you what your curve looks like and your average casting cost among cards in your deck. This will also be able to recommend a certain amount of resources to play so you hit the number of resources that is equal to (or slightly greater than) your average casting cost of spells. -- This may be basic to me because I have been an MTG and WoW limited player for years.

I could also see AIDA recommending specific gear to use and/or different cards. IE:

*Robot voice* "AIDA detects you have 15 or more humans in your deck. Would you like to play 'Legionnaire of Adamanth?'"

"No thanks, AIDA."

"DOES NOT COMPUTE. DOES NOT COMPUTE. AIDA KNOWS ALL. DESTROYING DECK LIST."

caffn8d
05-28-2013, 11:46 AM
A raid is 3 people. Not 20 or 10 or even 5 like a regular dungeon group in many other MMOs. Just 3. I think you might be over thinking this. If you can't communicate well enough to coordinate getting two other folks together without special tools, especially from within your guild, I don't know what to tell you.

Talreth
05-28-2013, 02:01 PM
Gearscore would be virtually impossible in this game and gear doesn't measure skill only luck/persistance. What I would really like instead is a way to view their decklist. That way I know if what they're playing is going to be outmatched.

Talreth
05-28-2013, 02:04 PM
Some of you talk about carrying like it's some great burden. I see it as the opposite. It's an honor - and it's *fun* - to do the carrying. When my brother and I took on a 2-on-6 in the WoW BGs, we took that group of 6 down to their last man; the rest of our team was struggling, but our ability to carry the team gave us one of our most memorable WoW moments (and BG victories). Or playing 3-on-3 in Magic and being the deck that stood between loss and victory - why is that such a bad thing? In order for you to have those experiences and for you to be that hero among champions, you need to be willing to play with people who might not be where you're at or - god forbid! - new to the game.

I do like carrying. But in this example I think it would be better if the raid was tuned so that three competent players could have a challenge against it (because you know no deck is perfect all the time, so you can still carry). Your example is just handicapping yourself.

jai151
05-28-2013, 02:06 PM
Maybe some type of PvE rating system? For example, you start at 1500, whenever you die in a PvE encounter, you lose PvE rating points (you lose more at a higher rating). You can only build up rating by doing dungeons until 1800, and after that, they would net you 0 rating for completing them. After 1800, raids would still net you rating points.

Just a thought.. but this would, again, have some negative effect on the community: "LF1M, Endgame Raid, 1850+ PvE Rating."

That would encourage people to abandon experimentation and build only to known power decks to keep their win loss ratio high or to do all deck testing on a second account.

Punk
05-28-2013, 02:09 PM
That would encourage people to abandon experimentation and build only to known power decks to keep their win loss ratio high or to do all deck testing on a second account.

Most definitely would. Was just a quick thought and I am against anything like this.

Madican
05-28-2013, 02:26 PM
Yeah, we already see stuff like that in World of Warcraft Arena. The top teams are always the flavor of the month setups and they game the system by doing things such as getting to a certain ranking and then not playing at all to preserve said ranking.

It's really just a big mess. Fine for PvP maybe, since I'm sure Crypto knows how to do proper leaderboards, but not PvE.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 02:32 PM
Yeah, we already see stuff like that in World of Warcraft Arena. The top teams are always the flavor of the month setups and they game the system by doing things such as getting to a certain ranking and then not playing at all to preserve said ranking.

It's really just a big mess. Fine for PvP maybe, since I'm sure Crypto knows how to do proper leaderboards, but not PvE.

I don't know much about WoW leaderboards, but itunes heavily ranks podcasts based on recent scores, not overall scores. Gaming the leaderboards wouldn't work with a system like the itunes method.