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Shaqattaq
05-28-2013, 12:15 PM
by Dan Clark

Keywords represent special powers that grant a number of powerful abilities to actions and troops. They can range from enhancing a troop’s defensive abilities in combat, thereby increasing their chance for survival, or making them more aggressive, putting out as much damage as possible before they get taken out themselves.

http://hextcg.com/keywords/

Gerogero
05-28-2013, 12:47 PM
I am hoping for more Escalation cards. They seem really fun and I am already planning a burn deck to go along with Ragefire!

Cooks
05-28-2013, 12:58 PM
Escalation is a really scary keyword :D
Hope it doesn't get op with the cards

Shivdaddy
05-28-2013, 01:32 PM
Assuming I never quit MTGO, I will always call these keywords the magic equivalent. These are all exact abilities from magic, should be an easy transition for any mtgo player. How much do you think it will confuse people when I say haste, vigilance, trample, etc?

CoS
05-28-2013, 01:42 PM
Another Richard Garfield game's keywords come to mind as well:

Long Range: deal X damage to the target even when blocked
Dash: if this unit is fully constructed when you reveal it you may place it directly into your patrol region


Bonus points if you know the game :)

Cotton
05-28-2013, 01:49 PM
When I read troop I just read creature instead.

Meglodon
05-28-2013, 02:08 PM
The art for Relentless Corruption looks just like Pennywise the Clown from IT. That is terrifying.

MugenMusou
05-28-2013, 02:15 PM
Wow.. Relentless Corruption art is just wow.... scary.

Meglodon
05-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Another Richard Garfield game's keywords come to mind as well:

Long Range: deal X damage to the target even when blocked
Dash: if this unit is fully constructed when you reveal it you may place it directly into your patrol region


Bonus points if you know the game :)

Sounds like Battletech but I didn't play it enough to remember if that was actually a mechanic.

Arbiter
05-28-2013, 02:23 PM
Escalation really concerns me. In other TCGs, anything with "double" on it has usually got out of hand. And, worse, these cards shuffle themselves in your deck, and the chance of drawing a card you have four of again is significant (8% if you have 4 copies and 50 cards remaining). Any deck manipulation makes it worse. The revealed direct damage card likely kills if you see three copies of it and will with the fourth (2, 4, 8, 16). It is just too much.

I think it would be still great if Escalation just incremented by the initial amount (or you could have "Escalation <number>" to indicate how much it increases). Or you could have Escalation only apply to the one copy of the card. In it's current incarnation, though, I think Escalation will dominate the constructed environment and that isn't a good thing.

Madican
05-28-2013, 02:43 PM
Escalation with the power to draw from your opponent's deck instead of your own? That has some seriously awesome potential. Run a diamond/sapphire deck and start pulling away your opponent's blood resources plus Murders.

Jotora
05-28-2013, 03:21 PM
Does that hippo have six legs!?

ShaolinRaven
05-28-2013, 03:23 PM
Run a diamond/sapphire deck and start pulling away your opponent's blood resources plus Murders.

Except that card is a blood card so you would need Diamond/Blood or Blood/Sapphire.

Zahar
05-28-2013, 03:23 PM
Sooo... in order:

Storm (kinda)
Evolve
Rage (NO MTG keyword, yey!)
Haste
Trample
Vigilance
Defender (wall)
Lifelink
Flying
First Strike
Hexproof
Indestructible

Not to hate or anything, but is it safe to do that? Won't Hasbro sue or something? That would be very frustrating, waiting for a court somewhere to decide legal issues before releasing the game...

Tyrfang
05-28-2013, 03:27 PM
Okay Relentless Corruption's graphic creeped me the #$*( out.

Madican
05-28-2013, 03:30 PM
Except that card is a blood card so you would need Diamond/Blood or Blood/Sapphire.

Whoops, yeah reverse that. Run blood and steal diamond/sapphire.

LennyV
05-28-2013, 03:31 PM
So cards with Invincible can still be targeted by opposing effects?

TheMadHatter
05-28-2013, 03:47 PM
I am very disappointed in these keywords. As Shivdaddy mentioned, most of them are cutouts from MTG. Worse, these are the staples of MTG's core sets. I have played MTG for a while so it worried me when Hex chose a three set block format. It feels like MTG reprinted + escalation is not a new game, but rather a new nearly-parallel expansion. Ignoring similarities in drafting, combat phases and more has me irked. These keywords make me feel like I'm cheating on MTG, it breaks my heart. T-T

There are ways that I think Hex could fundamentally change in order to be both significantly different from MTG as well as have a very different upfront feel to combat in terms of "keywords". Some examples follow:

Speed/Haste: Add something: hasted creatures exhaust in two turns, take -1 to attack the turn they enter, spells cannot target "speeded" creatures the turn they enter (maybe IF they enter in a combat phase), deal 50%-150% damage rounded up the turn they enter, etc. Maybe you could even call it something different, like "phase" if you added a mechanic like spellshield temporarily. This would also play to the strength of an online tcg by stacking effects that would be difficult to track in a physical card.

Crush/Trample: Well... I love trample. I would love to see trample splashed in a future set for nostalgic purposes. That being said, Crush should evolve. 100% damage to the first creature, 75% to the second target, etc. It could also scale up as well depending on the necessity to balance the cards for acute competitive purposes. Crush could mimic rampage in giving + 1 to attack temporarily for each additional target, or maybe -1 to attack and defense for each two blocking creatures. Crush could reduce the defense of enemies by a % permanently too.

Steadfast/Vigilance: It never made sense how a creature could take a ton of damage, then heal completely for more combat before a new turn. How about doing -25% damage per combat action until it recovers? Maybe give it x "steadfast" counters, removing one to remove exhaust (once per turn?). Or even doing something simple like +50% to spell damage for the rest of the turn vigilance was used.

Lifedrain/Lifelink: I recall a mention of lifelink/lifedrain having high potential, always has, and is frankly unbalanced. Since Hex is a new game, why not change that dynamic? Life drained = 50% of damage delt? Too linier maybe, then why not take each point of damage drained and use it for something else? Life drained x.5 rounded down = + 1 agressive overchange + 1 defensive overcharge. Agressive overcharge counters can be used to give troops +1 to attack temporarily by drinking enemy blood (sorcery) or defensive can be used to regenerate 1 point damage (instant).

Flight/Flying: -1 to damage vs ground troops when attacking. Maybe it is difficult to hit, all attacks lacking true-strike have a 10% chance to miss, or have damage reduced. You know, why not just make the damage reduced a variable between 0 and 100%?

Swiftstrike/Firststrike: Maybe this effect could be nullified by artifacts or against flying. If your troop is so fast, why not have him move on to the next target? Every enemy with a defense less than the defeated creature takes (creature name)'s power as damage. Maybe have it move on to deal 50% damage to opposing champion?

Spellshield/Hexproof: Please, please, please, make them absorption counters. I don't care if the creature can create more counters or whatever, Hexproof (LOL) should be able to balance further in addition to being less reliable/op.

Invincible/Indestructible: How about something more fun and less technical. Win condition! "When (card name) successfully damages a creature that is destroyed, it becomes indestructible." When your opponent has more than 10 cards in hand? When you have more than X mana? If your card becomes targeted, it becomes indestructible next turn? Takes more than 50% damage and survives? Becomes equipped? Na, maybe just lives. Immortality/Resurrection/Reassemble/Return/Blessed/Lucky(/other names that don't break my heart) could be a number of counters that exist on a card, allowing it to be destroyed turn to return with summoning sickness. I don't mind this one staying the same, but please call it something less MTG. Maybe "Hexed," then all those necrotic can have 2 lives, one for each of those gems in them.

Troop/Creature: Maybe split "creatures" into different troop types, heavy, medium and light, then give each a different "armor type" or "defensive stat" that causes it to interact in a different way from other "troops".

Burrow/Tunnel/Dig?: MTG has always had flying and non-flying, then there was shadow. Hex feels the same. Go do something cool. Burrow: target troop gains (exhaust) and cannot be targeted until after it takes another action. The next action may target any valid enemy target.
Parry: 10% chance of deflecting any physical attack.
Riposte: after a successful parry, 25% change of dealing 50% damage to the source of the last attack.
Sneak: Troops with sneak cannot be blocked by creatures that are not blue.
Phase: When attacking, you may choose to deal 50% damage to target while taking 200% (or exhaust) until end of turn.
Low-blow: 35% chance when attacking a hero or troop with defense of 5 or greater, deal 150% damage and opposing hero's next draw is delayed until end of turn.
Blind: one random card from your hand is turned around so your opponent can view it for two turns (one if they are unable to cast it)
Faith: At the beginning of turn choose a target, all troops with faith deal 175% (rounded down) combat damage to that target this turn. Only one target can be chosen each turn.
Energy Flux: Target unit changes physical to magical damage. Then introduce different damage types potentially.
For the Cause: Target creature sacrifices it's self, dealing power + toughness one at a time to random enemies after death.
Implosion: Target artifact creature overloads, dealing power in damage to all enemies and toughness to all allies.

In these ways, I have both differentiated each ability from MTG as well as added a core flavor to combat that neither MTG or WOW has in damage % values and damage in terms of layers. I think of games as not belonging to the cards and traditions already made, rather to the people who live and love Hex today and tomorrow. Maybe allowing the community to select which "core" attributes stay in by having at least a pool of 30 and selecting 15, then save new fun things for new sets and pve. Maybe a more subtle change, like a name change or philosophical change would do the trick. In terms of philosophy, MTG is closed as select few people develop and test a format. Maybe a community change is necessary a venue to get the thousands of people who live and love the game to improve it. Maybe it will start small, like an open forum in the Beta of a new tcg. Maybe it will happen from the edges, a lady-artist I know has always wanted to draw for MTG. The deep and fairly stagnant nature of MTG and unapproachability of the typical TCG community has prevented her from finding any way to involve herself without loving the game completely. If community is to diversify in appeal, adding entirely new areas for the community to grow is essential. Maybe, a love for Hex could be found though allowing artists to compete openly to create card designs. Community could be developed though a MUCH better GUI that allows for easy chatting or an independent 3rd party to provide a place to gather. Ideally I'm thinking facebook for Hex. If community was a goal, developing playing formats that encourage it more would help, but that is another topic. Maybe if there was a way to further involve the community in the development of the cards, story, art and world of Hex everyone could become closer to it, beyond the few Producers and such.

Gregzilla
05-28-2013, 04:20 PM
I have a question.... so Ruby Pyromancer's Legendary equipment powers up Burn and Burn It To The Ground.... does that mean she needs to be in play for that to happen? Or do ya not even need her in deck for it to apply?

cyron
05-28-2013, 04:43 PM
I am very disappointed in these keywords. As Shivdaddy mentioned, most of them are cutouts from MTG. Worse, these are the staples of MTG's core sets. I have played MTG for a while so it worried me when Hex chose a three set block format. It feels like MTG reprinted + escalation is not a new game, but rather a new nearly-parallel expansion. Ignoring similarities in drafting, combat phases and more has me irked. These keywords make me feel like I'm cheating on MTG, it breaks my heart. T-T
I agree. While I have not been playing magic for very long (about 1 month or a little more) I am seeing these as the exact same as magic the gathering besides rage/escalation, along with many other similer mechanics such as resources and the tap/exhaust. I am still excited for the pve, but the pvp seems like a extremely polished and well done version of MTGO with a new set of cards.

facade
05-28-2013, 05:14 PM
I think the similarities to MtG are intentional. Having similar abilities certainly makes transitioning to this game all the easier for Magic players.

Imagine a hypothetical Magic player looking at this game. They see a rule set that they are already familiar with high quality production values but...
- There is a single player campaign.
- Cards have crazy abilities unheard of in paper games. (like the permanent changes to a card in a game, stealing opponents cards to put in your own hand, significantly transforming cards, etc.)
- The game is just being launched, so a completionist has a reasonable chance of getting every card.
- And potentially the big one, it is projected to be MUCH cheaper than magic since boosters will be only $2.

Why wouldn't a player transition to HEX from magic?

I can go on, but I think part of the HEX business plan is to steal customers from MtGO, and based on what I've seen so far, HEX looks like it might stand a pretty good chance of establishing itself as a significant player in the TCG business.

TheMadHatter
05-28-2013, 05:18 PM
@Cyron: Even if Hex only manages to be a polished MTG online, it is still amazing enough to play. I bought in because they seem to want more.

Rage = rampage in mtg, except it only buffs power instead of power and toughness and is permanent. I figured they changed that one enough that I wouldn't complain. Even escalation resembles MTG cards like Kindle. "Kindle deals X damage to target creature or player, where X is 2 plus the number of cards named Kindle in all graveyards." It is hard coming up with truly unique concepts, then they'd have to delay the game more to balance the cards. x.x

TheMadHatter
05-28-2013, 05:35 PM
@facade: It seems like a horrible business model to gut another company. It hurts the community and provides the community with a minimally better product. I'm mostly upset because the company talked a lot about this being new game. If Hex becomes the new mtg, it will only be a matter of time until someone makes something better. Then the community will be torn again, maybe for a minimally better Hex, maybe for something groundbreaking like wow. Maybe I just don't want to play the same game all my life.

Another thing, you probably don't care much about MTG to be able to say. "Why wouldn't a player transition to HEX from magic?" Clearly there are upsides, which do not negate a loss of community, friends, history, product, pride and more. I wonder what would happen if you told your lover/gf/wife, "I found a new one that has crazy abilities, I can get 'all' of it, and is much cheeper." If the community only means as much as economy, then there will be little community and brand loyalty (aka no love).

Grissnap
05-28-2013, 05:41 PM
One clarification I would like regarding the keyword "Speed": would troops with speed be able to activate their powers the turn they come into play?

Zahar
05-28-2013, 05:59 PM
One clarification I would like regarding the keyword "Speed": would troops with speed be able to activate their powers the turn they come into play?

Obviously, it's Haste, man!

About copying or not, I'm not radical about it - good ideas will be used to make an evolutionary product, and Blizzard is the company it is today thanks to their culture of accepting good ideas from other companies and implementing them in their games - but newer, online only MMOs like SoulForge make so many new and cool stuff making an unlicensed Magic game sounds a bit... lackluster. I saw the gameplay trailer and I was like "ok, it's Magic without land cards", and I was ok with it. But EVERY keyword coming from evergreen?

Ah, I'm Dungeon Crawler tier pledger BTW, and I love Magic. But I think constructive critics are essential to make Hex as good as it can be.

Grissnap
05-28-2013, 06:02 PM
@Zahar - you never know, it could be ferocity! (WoW TCG equivalent of haste, but you can't use activated abilities).

LargoLaGrande
05-28-2013, 06:05 PM
@Cyron: Even if Hex only manages to be a polished MTG online, it is still amazing enough to play. I bought in because they seem to want more.

Rage = rampage in mtg, except it only buffs power instead of power and toughness and is permanent. I figured they changed that one enough that I wouldn't complain. Even escalation resembles MTG cards like Kindle. "Kindle deals X damage to target creature or player, where X is 2 plus the number of cards named Kindle in all graveyards." It is hard coming up with truly unique concepts, then they'd have to delay the game more to balance the cards. x.x

Rage is nowhere near rampage. Rampage x means that for each creature blocking this one, beyond the first, this gets +x/+x until the end of the turn.

Kietay
05-28-2013, 06:16 PM
I am very disappointed in these keywords...

The reason these are used is because they are simple and work. All of your changes are much more complicated than the original version of them. Keywords have simple straightforward effects so that they can apply easily across multiple types of cards.

TheMadHatter
05-28-2013, 06:26 PM
The reason these are used is because they are simple and work. All of your changes are much more complicated than the original version of them. Keywords have simple straightforward effects so that they can apply easily across multiple types of cards.

Good point, form and function. I had assumed that if cryptozoic wanted simple, they would actually remove card effects. Slowly introducing a new keywords with sets would reduce the confusion as well as obtain the depth they are striving for. I wonder about the nature of a simple effect though, as effects make cards different/unusual.

I am curious, what IS the reason these these keywords are used?

Meglodon
05-28-2013, 06:44 PM
Some examples follow:

Speed/Haste: Add something: hasted creatures exhaust in two turns, take -1 to attack the turn they enter, spells cannot target "speeded" creatures the turn they enter (maybe IF they enter in a combat phase), deal 50%-150% damage rounded up the turn they enter, etc. Maybe you could even call it something different, like "phase" if you added a mechanic like spellshield temporarily. This would also play to the strength of an online tcg by stacking effects that would be difficult to track in a physical card.

Crush/Trample: Well... I love trample. I would love to see trample splashed in a future set for nostalgic purposes. That being said, Crush should evolve. 100% damage to the first creature, 75% to the second target, etc. It could also scale up as well depending on the necessity to balance the cards for acute competitive purposes. Crush could mimic rampage in giving + 1 to attack temporarily for each additional target, or maybe -1 to attack and defense for each two blocking creatures. Crush could reduce the defense of enemies by a % permanently too.


I get where you are coming from here in wanting to utilize the system to track the math but it would still be complicated to calculate board state. Having to figure out an attack with separate percentages, let alone set up my blocks, would make my mind explode.

The simplicity of the mechanics are what make them good which is why you see them here.

An_Idiot
05-28-2013, 08:00 PM
I think (hope) they are just starting with the simple keywords first, and over time will add more.

Keep in mind, some of the most interesting, cool, and powerful cards have almost no keywords on them at all.

Like slivers, icy manipulator, urza's lands, Nightmare (back in the day this was sick), bringer's of the *color* dawn.

Then there were all the keywords that magic added over the years, annihilator, infect, proliferate.

Imagine annihilator cards back in revised MTG, the most powerful cards of the days were serra angels (4/4 flying doesn't tap to attack *before vigilance*).


I guess in the end i'm just hoping that keywords are just something they use for the common or highly recognizable ablities and that we still find more of the interesting ablities as a wall of text on a card, like "after each player's draw phase but before their first mainphase, that player puts their hand on the bottom of their deck in any order and draws an equal number of cards from the top of their deck." that always made the game interesting.

CoS
05-28-2013, 08:51 PM
Correct! Battletech FTW ;)

Ramshackal
05-28-2013, 09:38 PM
Keep in mind, some of the most interesting, cool, and powerful cards have almost no keywords on them at all.


QFT.

Crypto has shown us some really wicked, interesting cards. The game plays similarly to magic, that's true. What I'm excited about is being in on a game from the very beggining. This game is also much more affordable than Magic, which I find very appealing.

facade
05-28-2013, 09:41 PM
@facade: It seems like a horrible business model to gut another company. It hurts the community and provides the community with a minimally better product.

I agree that this is not really a pleasant business model, but unlike other game types, TCG's have a much higher financial cost to the player due to the nature of needing to constantly buy cards. Often TCG players can only commit to a single game, especially those with a compulsive disposition to collect. When I played Magic, I had no interest in any other TCG because I was already invested in Magic due to the limited nature of my funds.

To be successful in a market where there are already established alternatives, HEX can't just create a novel card game but draw players from other games, potentially cannibalizing from MtGO.

purple-one
05-28-2013, 11:24 PM
Stop to compare hex with mtg. Sure lot of the keyword are the same of mtg but mtg is now 20 years old so have a lot of keywords. Those basic keywords are just necessary for to learn combat. I am sure the hex will be unique enough for it self.

Qorsair
05-28-2013, 11:29 PM
I think this is a great strategy (assuming everything is legally sound).
No one likes the MTGO client. Lots of people want to play MtG online with a better client.
If CZE can start close enough to MtG that it makes for a smooth transition, they'll probably gather enough support to have funds to run the game long enough to transition over the course of a block or two into what the ultimate design intent was.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is where they're going, based on the interviews they've done, talking about all the things they want to do in the game that will be coming in future sets. What if they want them in future sets simply because if they're in set one, it's not going to look enough like MtG for people to jump on board at launch for an easy transition?

FranzVonG
05-29-2013, 12:28 AM
Could be a great strategy, could be the wrong one. When someone is looking for a new game, usually is not going to play something that's absolutely the same just with a different client/art/name. Look at all the WoW clones and their crashing failures.

I haven't played MTG for a while now (10+ years), so I don't really feel this as a problem, but let's be honest: same game rules, extremely similar mechanics, same keywords with a different name... many cards presented have even the same combination of cost/stats/keyword of MTG ones. Not sure if there could be legal problems, but for sure we are not looking at an innovative game (from the pure TCG point-of-view).

GhundiPI
05-29-2013, 01:25 AM
but for sure we are not looking at an innovative game (from the pure TCG point-of-view).

The innovation for Hex is in the digital format. There are quite some new tricks, mechanics and keywords, only possible with a digital game, already shown with the currently revealed cards. This will only expand with every new set and Hex will diverge more and more from the standard TCG format.

We really need to keep in mind that this is the release set of Hex, so they need to build a solid base to build further upon.

FranzVonG
05-29-2013, 01:31 AM
The innovation for Hex is in the digital format.

AGoT, Duel of Champions, Vampire TES, WoW... this are just the first games that come to my mind that have completely different game mechanics than MTG; bring every one of these in "digital format", and you have both the innovation of the media and a unique play-style. CZE chose to take a different way, we'll see if it will pay.

Jotora
05-29-2013, 06:14 AM
but the pvp seems like a extremely polished and well done version of MTGO with a new set of cards.This is a bad thing?

juzamjedi
05-29-2013, 10:00 AM
I don't agree with the popular notion that Hex gameplay is just another expansion of MTG. Here's why:

1. Hex has cards that change within your library based on game play. The best example is "The Crowd Roars". This card slowly improves over time through normal game play and would be very difficult to do in paper MTG and should be unique to digital only games like Hex. These kind of cards will likely never happen in MTG for logistical reasons (pen and paper to record all game state changes?) as well as competitive reasons (what happens if your opponent disagrees on number of creatures that died? What if the opponent notices you are tracking creature deaths do they now know you are playing Crowd Roars? Do you have to now track every single action with pen and paper?)

2. Escalation. This is a powerful keyword that could possibly be done in MTG (tracking number of times a card was played and shuffling back into deck seems plausible and eliminates some of the game play issues in #1). This mechanic is a new one that Hex is introducing.

3. Hex can change cards in your opponent's deck, add cards to your opponent's deck, and take control of cards in your opponent's deck based on information that is (probably) not known to either player. Example here is Zombie Plague; this seems like something that a digital only game can do, but a paper game cannot.

4. Sockets that allow you to customize card. This is something that seems marginally possible in paper MTG (do you have to check a box on the card stating which socket you would use? Possibly something like the proxies used for transform cards?). It is a new mechanic in Hex that will let you customize your cards to fit your strategy.

5. Equipment - I think mechanically this will play out similar to Sockets (you choose which equipment you want during deck construction to improve specific cards) but this seems like something that MTG would never do. I don't foresee them adding equipment to players. In any case this is also a differentiator for Hex.

6. Spectral Lotus. MTG did something like this in un-sets (you could rip apart your Chaos Confetti to destroy a bunch of permanents) but I don't see them introducing a mechanic like this in normal sets. There is no way for them to have a card that generates one-time use cards over time and players would be upset if normal MTG cards had to be ripped up to use.

I'll stop here for now. I agree there are a lot of similarities in mechanics, but there is clearly some cool new design space that Hex is moving into that MTG has not explored.

Zahar
05-29-2013, 12:03 PM
The reason these are used is because they are simple and work. All of your changes are much more complicated than the original version of them. Keywords have simple straightforward effects so that they can apply easily across multiple types of cards.

They are not only simple, they are copy-paste from Magic. I'm not a designer, I'll not come with better ideas than the keywords the benchmark CCG use, but I sure hope OTHER developers come up with new and cool stuff when they are doing a game that is NOT MTG - and I hope Hex is not simply an unauthorized MGT clone.



I don't agree with the popular notion that Hex gameplay is just another expansion of MTG. Here's why:

1. Hex has cards that change within your library based on game play. The best example is "The Crowd Roars". This card slowly improves over time through normal game play and would be very difficult to do in paper MTG and should be unique to digital only games like Hex. These kind of cards will likely never happen in MTG for logistical reasons (pen and paper to record all game state changes?) as well as competitive reasons (what happens if your opponent disagrees on number of creatures that died? What if the opponent notices you are tracking creature deaths do they now know you are playing Crowd Roars? Do you have to now track every single action with pen and paper?)

2. Escalation. This is a powerful keyword that could possibly be done in MTG (tracking number of times a card was played and shuffling back into deck seems plausible and eliminates some of the game play issues in #1). This mechanic is a new one that Hex is introducing.

3. Hex can change cards in your opponent's deck, add cards to your opponent's deck, and take control of cards in your opponent's deck based on information that is (probably) not known to either player. Example here is Zombie Plague; this seems like something that a digital only game can do, but a paper game cannot.

4. Sockets that allow you to customize card. This is something that seems marginally possible in paper MTG (do you have to check a box on the card stating which socket you would use? Possibly something like the proxies used for transform cards?). It is a new mechanic in Hex that will let you customize your cards to fit your strategy.

5. Equipment - I think mechanically this will play out similar to Sockets (you choose which equipment you want during deck construction to improve specific cards) but this seems like something that MTG would never do. I don't foresee them adding equipment to players. In any case this is also a differentiator for Hex.

6. Spectral Lotus. MTG did something like this in un-sets (you could rip apart your Chaos Confetti to destroy a bunch of permanents) but I don't see them introducing a mechanic like this in normal sets. There is no way for them to have a card that generates one-time use cards over time and players would be upset if normal MTG cards had to be ripped up to use.

I'll stop here for now. I agree there are a lot of similarities in mechanics, but there is clearly some cool new design space that Hex is moving into that MTG has not explored.

I agree. But we're discussing keywords, and THOSE are really just a MTG copy.

Simokon
05-29-2013, 01:03 PM
If it is possible is anyone else just going to replace the HEX terms with MTG ones?

Gregzilla
05-29-2013, 01:48 PM
I do love Relentless Corruption. It seems, like, really insane that there's a card that can steal cards off the top of your opponents deck in the first place, and then ya add in escalation, and.... yeah. So awesome.

jaxsonbateman
05-30-2013, 02:22 AM
Haha, did anyone else notice that Relentless Harvester has fear/intimidate? I read that and was just like... wow, try harder. :-P Having said that, I've got no qualms with the multitude of things they're taking from MTG. MTG is one of the most popular card games around for a reason - it does a lot right. Making an actually decent online version of it is a good thing in my books, especially with a decent PvE side to it (DotP is garbage compared to real Magic).


I don't agree with the popular notion that Hex gameplay is just another expansion of MTG. Here's why:

1. Hex has cards that change within your library based on game play. The best example is "The Crowd Roars". This card slowly improves over time through normal game play and would be very difficult to do in paper MTG and should be unique to digital only games like Hex. These kind of cards will likely never happen in MTG for logistical reasons (pen and paper to record all game state changes?) as well as competitive reasons (what happens if your opponent disagrees on number of creatures that died? What if the opponent notices you are tracking creature deaths do they now know you are playing Crowd Roars? Do you have to now track every single action with pen and paper?)

2. Escalation. This is a powerful keyword that could possibly be done in MTG (tracking number of times a card was played and shuffling back into deck seems plausible and eliminates some of the game play issues in #1). This mechanic is a new one that Hex is introducing.

3. Hex can change cards in your opponent's deck, add cards to your opponent's deck, and take control of cards in your opponent's deck based on information that is (probably) not known to either player. Example here is Zombie Plague; this seems like something that a digital only game can do, but a paper game cannot.

4. Sockets that allow you to customize card. This is something that seems marginally possible in paper MTG (do you have to check a box on the card stating which socket you would use? Possibly something like the proxies used for transform cards?). It is a new mechanic in Hex that will let you customize your cards to fit your strategy.

5. Equipment - I think mechanically this will play out similar to Sockets (you choose which equipment you want during deck construction to improve specific cards) but this seems like something that MTG would never do. I don't foresee them adding equipment to players. In any case this is also a differentiator for Hex.

6. Spectral Lotus. MTG did something like this in un-sets (you could rip apart your Chaos Confetti to destroy a bunch of permanents) but I don't see them introducing a mechanic like this in normal sets. There is no way for them to have a card that generates one-time use cards over time and players would be upset if normal MTG cards had to be ripped up to use.

I'll stop here for now. I agree there are a lot of similarities in mechanics, but there is clearly some cool new design space that Hex is moving into that MTG has not explored.

1. A Crowd Roars type effect is no more difficult than storm. MTG could easily do it if they wanted to.
2. Hex is certainly introducing new mechanics... in a similar way that WotC introduces new mechanics in most blocks. The starter set of Hex could almost be considered an expansion set of MTG.
3. While a paper game could change stuff in an opponent's deck, it's not something that MTG can do atm with its current rules that don't allow an opponent's cards to enter your hand, library or graveyard. It still has some cards which 'sort-of' achieve this affect, like Praetor's Counsel and Jace, Architect of Thought, which extract cards from the opponent's deck and allows you to play them.
4. Pretty much the same as 2. They could accommodate this mechanic in Magic with checklists like they did for transform cards (use a checklist instead of the actual card, indicating what card is in that slot + what gem it'd have).
5. 2 and 4 - it's something they could do, but probably won't.
6. They sort of had that with Chaos Orb, which Chaos Confetti was based on. In the old days of Magic with the rules being a lot rougher, players would activate Chaos Orb then tear it up - nothing said they couldn't - to maximise the number of permanents it would hit. Sure, they permanently lost their card, but they also increased their chances of winning. As for Spectral Lotus, if I'm reading the card right you only get to use the effect once. Ever. You then get a Black Tiger for the rest of your days in your collection.

Like I said in point 2, Hex is so similar to Magic that this could almost be considered an expansion set. I don't have a problem with that though - Magic is awesome, so a pseudo-copy entering new online design space and creating new mechanics is just peachy.

Hieronymous
05-30-2013, 05:39 AM
I think this debate is helped by realizing that games have genres. "Magic Type" card games are a genre. Hex is in that genre but it's a distinct game within that genre. I mean, heck, everyone and their brother copied Orcs, because Tolkien founded the modern fantasy genre, but that doesn't mean that everything with an orc in it is just a copy of Tolkien. What matters is what you add to the mix and Hex adds a lot of innovative digital design elements.

That said, bring back Banding. No reason not to in a digital game that can track it properly.

TheWrathofShane
06-04-2013, 11:52 PM
by Dan Clark

Keywords represent special powers that grant a number of powerful abilities to actions and troops. They can range from enhancing a troop’s defensive abilities in combat, thereby increasing their chance for survival, or making them more aggressive, putting out as much damage as possible before they get taken out themselves.

http://hextcg.com/keywords/

Great stuff guys.

TheWrathofShane
06-04-2013, 11:54 PM
That said, bring back Banding. No reason not to in a digital game that can track it properly.

Disagree. Banding ended up hurting you rather then helping you most of the time. Magic abandoned it for a good reason. Wordy, confusing to new players, and too situational.

TheWrathofShane
06-04-2013, 11:57 PM
I don't agree with the popular notion that Hex gameplay is just another expansion of MTG. Here's why:

1. Hex has cards that change within your library based on game play. The best example is "The Crowd Roars". This card slowly improves over time through normal game play and would be very difficult to do in paper MTG and should be unique to digital only games like Hex. These kind of cards will likely never happen in MTG for logistical reasons (pen and paper to record all game state changes?) as well as competitive reasons (what happens if your opponent disagrees on number of creatures that died? What if the opponent notices you are tracking creature deaths do they now know you are playing Crowd Roars? Do you have to now track every single action with pen and paper?)

2. Escalation. This is a powerful keyword that could possibly be done in MTG (tracking number of times a card was played and shuffling back into deck seems plausible and eliminates some of the game play issues in #1). This mechanic is a new one that Hex is introducing.

3. Hex can change cards in your opponent's deck, add cards to your opponent's deck, and take control of cards in your opponent's deck based on information that is (probably) not known to either player. Example here is Zombie Plague; this seems like something that a digital only game can do, but a paper game cannot.

4. Sockets that allow you to customize card. This is something that seems marginally possible in paper MTG (do you have to check a box on the card stating which socket you would use? Possibly something like the proxies used for transform cards?). It is a new mechanic in Hex that will let you customize your cards to fit your strategy.

5. Equipment - I think mechanically this will play out similar to Sockets (you choose which equipment you want during deck construction to improve specific cards) but this seems like something that MTG would never do. I don't foresee them adding equipment to players. In any case this is also a differentiator for Hex.

6. Spectral Lotus. MTG did something like this in un-sets (you could rip apart your Chaos Confetti to destroy a bunch of permanents) but I don't see them introducing a mechanic like this in normal sets. There is no way for them to have a card that generates one-time use cards over time and players would be upset if normal MTG cards had to be ripped up to use.

I'll stop here for now. I agree there are a lot of similarities in mechanics, but there is clearly some cool new design space that Hex is moving into that MTG has not explored.


Not just that, Hex will have amazing dungeons that will take hours to complete, and in depth story line with epic quests and loot. Something magic hasn't even attempted since the 1990's.

I imagine it will be 1000 times more epic then the pokemon trading card game for GBA, and thats a game where I replayed countless times and enjoyed very much.

Erebus
06-05-2013, 03:13 PM
They've also states specifically that the first set is basically HEX:Lite.

They wanted an easily understandable and make it accessable to the magic and other TCG players. After that each set will expand into what the digital space allows and allow it to grow different from hex.

However, based on the Archetype, concepts like first strike, trample, haste and flying are really no brainers.

saropatzi
06-06-2013, 02:47 AM
I think the similarities to MtG are intentional. Having similar abilities certainly makes transitioning to this game all the easier for Magic players.

Imagine a hypothetical Magic player looking at this game. They see a rule set that they are already familiar with high quality production values but...
- There is a single player campaign.
- Cards have crazy abilities unheard of in paper games. (like the permanent changes to a card in a game, stealing opponents cards to put in your own hand, significantly transforming cards, etc.)
- The game is just being launched, so a completionist has a reasonable chance of getting every card.
- And potentially the big one, it is projected to be MUCH cheaper than magic since boosters will be only $2.

Why wouldn't a player transition to HEX from magic?

I can go on, but I think part of the HEX business plan is to steal customers from MtGO, and based on what I've seen so far, HEX looks like it might stand a pretty good chance of establishing itself as a significant player in the TCG business.

The question you should ask is: why Wizard of the Coast should sit and look? I think that if there is the chance to make a legal controversial they are going to prosecute their competitors for stealing their mechanics so bluntly.

It would seem not so strange given the fact that the Cryptozoic choice seems made in order to steal their customers.
On the other hand Wizards of the Coast may choose to copy the PVE of Hex relying on their wider base of players and on a bigger financial availability, to steal back hex players.

I'm just speculating eh, hopefully Cryptozoic has already cleared every legal aspect of this production.

zifster
06-06-2013, 07:47 AM
IANAL but It's my understanding you can't copyright basic game mechanics, as long as they use different words legally they should be fine.

KiraForce
06-06-2013, 10:09 PM
My question: void = destroy or remove from game? It's like the one term they haven't gone over, that I remember.

ShaolinRaven
06-07-2013, 06:16 AM
My question: void = destroy or remove from game? It's like the one term they haven't gone over, that I remember.

It is remove from game. There are other cards that state they "destroy target".

Random360
06-07-2013, 12:34 PM
The question you should ask is: why Wizard of the Coast should sit and look? I think that if there is the chance to make a legal controversial they are going to prosecute their competitors for stealing their mechanics so bluntly.

It would seem not so strange given the fact that the Cryptozoic choice seems made in order to steal their customers.
On the other hand Wizards of the Coast may choose to copy the PVE of Hex relying on their wider base of players and on a bigger financial availability, to steal back hex players.

I'm just speculating eh, hopefully Cryptozoic has already cleared every legal aspect of this production.

Wizards can't even get a half decent online client working, how would they add pve to it?
It is EXTREMELY unlikely that crypto would do this without clearing it with lawyers first. If wizards sues it will be because they feel threatened, whether or not they have a fully legitimate case.

alpha5099
06-07-2013, 11:06 PM
This game had been in the making, in various stages of design and programming, for about two years before the Kickstarter even started. If anyone believes for a moment that Cryptozoic's legal team has given this game their full clearance, I don't know what to tell you. I remember seeing someone even suggest that WotC was waiting until the KS was over to swoop in and sue for all the pledges. That's insane.

Fireblast
06-09-2013, 07:35 AM
WoTC stealing our KS money, nice PR :D

Anyway, this game as similar rules to MtG and similar keywords (you cannot really invent new "basic" keywords if the rules are close) but it's not MtG.

It's not the rules that makes MtG what it is, it's the cards balance and the fun you have while playing; the rules enable that, but it's not all.

~

Omniloathe
06-09-2013, 09:54 AM
YOU CANNOT COPYRIGHT GAMEPLAY MECHANICS FOR BOARD/CARD GAMES.

end of story.

Words used can be copywrited. Art can be copyrighted. Gameplay mechanics/rules CANNOT.

Thats why getting a license for a popular IP is often important in board/card game manufacturing/production.

Why are you guys debating a topic you obviously don't understand?

Unless they use the same keywords as MTG, WoTC can't do anything. Even if they did (which Hex has zero reasons to) its kinda a toss up.

KiraForce
06-09-2013, 10:01 AM
YOU CANNOT COPYRIGHT GAMEPLAY MECHANICS FOR BOARD/CARD GAMES.

end of story.

Words used can be copywrited. Art can be copyrighted. Gameplay mechanics/rules CANNOT.

Thats why getting a license for a popular IP is often important in board/card game manufacturing/production.

Why are you guys debating a topic you obviously don't understand. Unless they use the same keywords has MTG, WoTC can't do anything.



If you could, many card games wouldn't exist. Think of any of the card games ever with similar mechs. Magic was the first ever TCG to have the format this does, so any TCG you can think of followed it. If they could copyright any of their mechs, any of the TCGs you just thought of could have been sued and/or given CnDs. So yeah, won't happen.

Mokog
06-10-2013, 11:00 PM
Hello Everyone!

Keywords are very important to the game as they are the intangibles that bind the strategy and metagame we will dive into. In essence they are only the vehicle for the game experience but they are not Hex. Hex are the Shin'hare, Dwarfes, Coyotle and other races struggles heros and lands. The game is the form of conversation about this magical world with keywords as short cuts.

Magic paved the foundation and beat the other games to market but their IP is the game and rules. Magic:TG is the d20 system of TCGs. Hex is a new system that takes from what works in the industry and remolds where the designers see fit. If the first set feel like magic now, how many surprises do the devs have in store for set 2?

We will find out soon enough. Till then, settle into our new vehicle with its pre-molded keywords to make us feel comfortable just before the roller coaster.

~Mokog

mydragoon
06-11-2013, 12:15 AM
update 1: dems, posted at the wrong thread... but they're still a bit relevant. sorry...

***************************************
well, my first impression of Hex is definitely this -- near exact copy of MTG.
* type of mana (heck, they used the term mana is the sample play video too), which is 5. what's this magical number?
* life @ 20.. why 20? why not 15? or 30?
and many more...

i've played Rage (by White Wolf) but it never felt the same like MTG. same with Pokemon... It didn't feel like MTG. Same with UNO. dun feel like MTG (oh wait, that's a different type of game). But Hex... From how it looks, it does feel like MTG. which is why i said in another post... i hope WoC dun come out with a lawsuit (for whatever reasons -- i know, some said mechanics cannot be copyrighted).

but ya, i am still very much excited about Hex. but as i have said earlier as well, I just wished that if Hex is really designed from ground up with virtual gaming in mind, then I'm sure many things could have been different...
* do we still need to tap (put the card sideways)
* animated spell effects and battles?

but i do see some bits are better off in the virtual world like sockets, experience tracking, and that near infinite effect from Pack Raptor card... that would not have been that feasible in real cards.

anyway, Hex is software. it can get better... and it will... right? :D

KiraForce
06-19-2013, 05:26 AM
I'm actually kind of confused as to what a Socketable creature really means...

theeliminator
06-19-2013, 01:34 PM
What gets me about Relentless Corruption's art is the guys eyes it's that look of terror. Who ever did the art, great work.

sckolar
06-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Escalation cards will be fun an surprising for my enemies! >:}

Xelinor
06-20-2013, 10:32 AM
So...I'm super cool with the new key words and loving the familiar core of keywords I already know and use from MTG...all except for Invincible. Indestructable is and continues to be the complete bane of my existence where MTG is concerned. It's always 'The Uber Card' that is made indestructable. The one that people build completely boring decks around just to get out their indestructable monster with the worlds most annoying combos.

If it was a pve-only thing that would be one thing, but please, PLEASE don't put it in normal pvp play. The very idea of an invincible creature is contrary to the world being shown to us.

You want something that can survive a death spell or fatal damage? FINE! Regenerate is a thing! Slap a cool name on top and call it good (Hard to kill? Infused? Mind Over Matter?). An ability that powerful should NOT be free and always on. It's a bad mechanic. Something that requires resources to activate is a FAR better mechanic for the kind of game you've been showing to us.

/my 2 cents