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View Full Version : so how will pve be balanced for free players vs founders?



theradol
05-28-2013, 09:02 PM
edit- you guys arent getting my point. How are they gonna balance difficulty so that pve isn't too easy for people king and above or too difficult for free players. There should be a huge difference in power level between the 2 groups just based on the number of booster packs king and higher get alone.


Is pve going to be too easy for people who buy the godkingknightdragon-superwizard tier packs?

I don't really understand how they are gonna balance it so its possible to free players and not trivial to the people donating. any thoughts on this?

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:04 PM
Which specific part do you think is game-breaking unbalanced and/or possibly a trivial bonus?

jai151
05-28-2013, 09:07 PM
The cards are only as good as the person playing them.

Turtlewing
05-28-2013, 09:08 PM
The donations get you stuff that's different but not more powerful than what you can get via gameplay.

yovalord
05-28-2013, 09:11 PM
Having a larger card pool will more than likely make things easier for a player, but i wouldnt at all say it trivializes it. However, i wouldnt expect to make it through all the PvE content without spending any money either. While it is a free to play game, i doubt you will be able to get through everything PvE has to offer with your stater deck.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:14 PM
The lotus garden is the one thing that I can see as potentially being crazy powerful, with the assumption that they don't intend to make any cards like it of equal power.

Lazybum
05-28-2013, 09:17 PM
Is pve going to be too easy for people who buy the godkingknightdragon-superwizard tier packs?

I don't really understand how they are gonna balance it so its possible to free players and not trivial to the people donating. any thoughts on this?

why does pve have to be balanced?

ShaolinRaven
05-28-2013, 09:21 PM
I think pve is going to be more balanced toward gear and level then cards. Sure, having more cards available to you will help, but you still need equipment and the right level to get through dungeons. Not to mention Crypto said that there were puzzles in some dungeons where you had to get cards from that dungeon or play the right cards to get through, so I think the pve will be fine for both backers and new people.

Zomnivore
05-28-2013, 09:22 PM
It sounds like certain specific combination of cards will be required for puzzles and other things.

Sounds like a feature that would limit buying your way out of pve content, seeing as pve cards are gotten via playing pve content.

wallofomens
05-28-2013, 09:23 PM
why does pve have to be balanced?

Exactly. It doesn't.

Also, in my opinon, all the free stuff and exclusives from kickstarter kind of take away from the whole PvEing experience.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:27 PM
Exactly. It doesn't.

Also, in my opinon, all the free stuff and exclusives from kickstarter kind of take away from the whole PvEing experience.

That's what he's asking. How is it going to be made so the exclusives don't make the game trivial, yet not make it so difficult that you have to have the exclusives to win.

The answer is that most of the exclusives don't really seem all that game breaking.

Tyrfang
05-28-2013, 09:29 PM
Well, I guess you could make the champion abilities really strong, and you minimize the effect of the deck.

Or, maybe the starter decks or PvE only cards will be better than we expect.

theradol
05-28-2013, 09:31 PM
no, i mean, heres what im afraid of.

When people make free to play games, they usually make content at least mostly clearable for the free players.

so, lets assume players of the same skill, with all the stuff that a king tier ends up getting, should be able to beat it pretty easy, no?

I'm worried that pve will be too easy for people who buy like, raid leader or whatnot.

theradol
05-28-2013, 09:34 PM
That's what he's asking. How is it going to be made so the exclusives don't make the game trivial, yet not make it so difficult that you have to have the exclusives to win.

The answer is that most of the exclusives don't really seem all that game breaking.

hey its my buddy on here again.

yeah, im worried that the free stuff from kickstarter will make pve less fun.

while i agree the exclusives don't seem all that game breaking, I would think that just the huge number of booster packs alone would be a pretty big advantage.

And alot of the exclusives come with the gear pieces from their set don't they? hard to really judge out of context how powerful some of this stuff will be.

Lazybum
05-28-2013, 09:35 PM
I'm worried that pve will be too easy for people who buy like, raid leader or whatnot.

sooner or later its going to be too easy once you have a ton of equipment, and it cant be too hard if there is something like 1400 equipment cards to be aquired before the next set comes out

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:36 PM
Edit

RECHiD
05-28-2013, 09:37 PM
The +1 card, and other KS exclusive options may indeed end up being way above the power curve (or maybe not, who knows). If it makes the game too easy for your liking, disable the bonuses, and don't use the most powerful cards.

I have a feeling that for PVE cards, Cryptozoic's goals, in order of importance, are something like this...

1) Is the card freaking SWEET?
2) Is the card fun?
3) Wait, I mean SUPER FUNZORZ?
4) Other stuff.
5) Is it fair and balanced?

This does not bother me one bit, as long as I get a tolerable level of balance in the PVP cards :D

Lazybum
05-28-2013, 09:41 PM
broken cards in pve dont bother me and with all this equipment for the cards there is prob going to be alot of broken cards

theradol
05-28-2013, 09:47 PM
Well, there are 2 things im excited for in this game.

Drafting and the pve. If i cant get a pro player pack, id consider getting one of the other tiers, and raid leader or dungeon whateverer both sound like they would be ok except that, for the dungeon whateverer, getting extra loot might not matter.

Also, is this gonna be like wow where the best stuff comes from raiding? Seems like raid leader would be alot more important then dungeon hunter in that circumstance?

and for the raid leader, im not sure I'll be able to get too many friends to play this on a regular basis.

Sorry I'm late to the party and trying to catch up. I didn't see much info on this so I felt I would make a thread.

Gwaer
05-28-2013, 09:49 PM
They've already answered this in the kraken's gold spotlight. There will be easy ways to beat dungeons, and hard ways. You can tune the difficulty based on the choices you make.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:52 PM
There will also be some amazing raid exclusive equipment. But remember, the raid bonus is just for the first turn. It gives you +1 card in your opening hand, not +1 max hand size. (It does stack however, so if you get in with two other Raid Leaders and/or Grand Kings then you all start with +3 cards in your opening hand.)

theradol
05-28-2013, 09:55 PM
so, honestly, you guys think that it won't be a problem?

I trust forgedsol's opinion.

Isn't that name from another tcg though?

Lazybum
05-28-2013, 09:57 PM
+3 cards in hand isnt always a good thing, sure would help get a few cards into the GY if you want them there as well as get some more resources into your hand

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 09:59 PM
Don't trust just my opinion on PvE, I'm really not sure how it's all going to turn out. I stopped playing WoW after the Beta, played Diablo I and II for the story, never for the gear grinding. If I end up not liking it, I'm here mostly for the PvP anyway. If I do like it, great.

(And yeah, made the name after I backed SolForge when their kickstarter came out. Decided to back this too since they're vastly different games and I wanted to have the same ID across both games.)

Tyrfang
05-28-2013, 10:06 PM
I expect that, for PvE, the cards you earn in game and the equipment will be more powerful than the PvP cards (w/o equipment).

The PvP cards are more balanced to begin with, and outside of the KS promo cards, are probably a bit weaker than the average PvE card.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 10:12 PM
F2P games are tricky. Using Kingdom Rush as an example, it's a (great) tower defense game that's free on iOS. You can buy power-ups for it, and when I heard all the praise for it on all the podcasts I listen to, I was scared when some of them said that the game is excellent, but you can't beat the final levels without putting some money into the game. I was scared to play if what they said was true. (It wasn't. Beat it eventually putting no money into it and buying power-ups with just in game gold. And then played the game over again without using the in game gold.)

The two big questions are what are the expectations that Cryptozoic feels F2P players will be coming into this game with? What are the expectations players will actually have? And will Cryptzoic change their game design based on the reaction and by how much?

The higher rewards for higher success in a multi-path dungeon (as I understand it) sounds like a good approach. New players can win, but they can't get as much gear and loot as people with better decks. The question then is how much is loot going to matter? And how much are people going to want to grind for loot? I have no idea how to judge that. I'm not the Diablo audience that wants to get loot for loots' sake.

But they're also creating a variety of dungeons, and not just dungeons of higher and higher difficultly. Some dungeons will be completely puzzle based, and that's something I can get behind. I love puzzles. So even if I don't like all dungeons, I should like some dungeons, and that will be enough for me since I'm here for the PvP.

RobHaven
05-28-2013, 10:19 PM
I know for me, personally, it's hard to hear "dungeon" and "raid" and not think in WoW terms...but that really needs to be shaken. In WoW, dungeons were a 5 man experience that played like easy raids. Raids were the meat-and-potatoes of high end gameplay. In this game - with 1 man dungeons and 3 man raids - there's no reason why both can't have equally challenging content and equally rewarding loot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't know exactly how they intend on doing it, I'd like to think that running solo is every bit as viable as running coop.

Two more things:
1) I thought I read in one of the updates that Raid Whatever bonuses do NOT stack? Didn't they say you'll only be able to start out with 8 cards and one Blessing regardless of how many Raid Whatevers are in your party?
2) To answer the question in the original post, I expect we'll meet up at some point. Backers will annihilate early content, but eventually get to the point where they're working for their wins. At that point, wherever that point is, everyone is getting close to equal footing.

theradol
05-28-2013, 10:27 PM
I know for me, personally, it's hard to hear "dungeon" and "raid" and not think in WoW terms...but that really needs to be shaken. In WoW, dungeons were a 5 man experience that played like easy raids. Raids were the meat-and-potatoes of high end gameplay. In this game - with 1 man dungeons and 3 man raids - there's no reason why both can't have equally challenging content and equally rewarding loot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't know exactly how they intend on doing it, I'd like to think that running solo is every bit as viable as running coop.

Two more things:
1) I thought I read in one of the updates that Raid Whatever bonuses do NOT stack? Didn't they say you'll only be able to start out with 8 cards and one Blessing regardless of how many Raid Whatevers are in your party?
2) To answer the question in the original post, I expect we'll meet up at some point. Backers will annihilate early content, but eventually get to the point where they're working for their wins. At that point, wherever that point is, everyone is getting close to equal footing.

id like to think that too. I expect that, like anything else though, the rewards for having more people together will be greater.

But how powerful will you be able to get in this game and how quickly can you get there? I've read their pve previews but, u know, they can only be so specific about these things.

theradol
05-28-2013, 10:29 PM
F2P games are tricky. Using Kingdom Rush as an example, it's a (great) tower defense game that's free on iOS. You can buy power-ups for it, and when I heard all the praise for it on all the podcasts I listen to, I was scared when some of them said that the game is excellent, but you can't beat the final levels without putting some money into the game. I was scared to play if what they said was true. (It wasn't. Beat it eventually putting no money into it and buying power-ups with just in game gold. And then played the game over again without using the in game gold.)

The two big questions are what are the expectations that Cryptozoic feels F2P players will be coming into this game with? What are the expectations players will actually have? And will Cryptzoic change their game design based on the reaction and by how much?

The higher rewards for higher success in a multi-path dungeon (as I understand it) sounds like a good approach. New players can win, but they can't get as much gear and loot as people with better decks. The question then is how much is loot going to matter? And how much are people going to want to grind for loot? I have no idea how to judge that. I'm not the Diablo audience that wants to get loot for loots' sake.

But they're also creating a variety of dungeons, and not just dungeons of higher and higher difficultly. Some dungeons will be completely puzzle based, and that's something I can get behind. I love puzzles. So even if I don't like all dungeons, I should like some dungeons, and that will be enough for me since I'm here for the PvP.

everytime i agree with someone i look over and its you.

Yeah, and sometimes if you spend the money in the store, the game just becomes faceroll. Can't think of an example right now, but most of the time they balance these things for the free player and sell extra power to the paying player.

but to me the question is, will there be any benefit for getting the dungeon crawler bonus? I think you guys have given me a good feel for the answer though.
Definitely maybe.

Gwaer
05-28-2013, 10:31 PM
Some people just like facerolling things, too. It's not really wrong to sell power in a pve scenario, really. If someone wants to buy their way to the top, they should be able to do so. It's only when it's against other players in a pvp sort of scenario that selling power is bad. And in the case of Hex, the only power they're selling is pvp cards that can be used in pve if you want. but for the most part pve cards will just be stronger than pvp ones.

ForgedSol
05-28-2013, 10:37 PM
I know for me, personally, it's hard to hear "dungeon" and "raid" and not think in WoW terms...but that really needs to be shaken. In WoW, dungeons were a 5 man experience that played like easy raids. Raids were the meat-and-potatoes of high end gameplay. In this game - with 1 man dungeons and 3 man raids - there's no reason why both can't have equally challenging content and equally rewarding loot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't know exactly how they intend on doing it, I'd like to think that running solo is every bit as viable as running coop.

Two more things:
1) I thought I read in one of the updates that Raid Whatever bonuses do NOT stack? Didn't they say you'll only be able to start out with 8 cards and one Blessing regardless of how many Raid Whatevers are in your party?
2) To answer the question in the original post, I expect we'll meet up at some point. Backers will annihilate early content, but eventually get to the point where they're working for their wins. At that point, wherever that point is, everyone is getting close to equal footing.

Oh, I'm not absolutely positive about that about the Raid Stacking. I know I read someone else say it, but I'm pretty sure I never saw an original source.

And I forgot to add something to my example. Whereas some F2P games rely on making things so frustrating that you want/have to pay to win, whether that be energy/time gating or extreme difficulty ramps, Cryptozoic doesn't have to do that since the PvE side doubles up as promotion and exposure for the PvP side. They can cater the difficulty to actually be the best for the playerbase without having to rely on it, in and of itself, to lead players to buy anything because that's what the PvP side is for. Buying boosters for PvP is their "micro transaction," one that is widely accepted as part of the genre and not solely implemented as a cash grab.

Verdant
05-28-2013, 11:39 PM
but to me the question is, will there be any benefit for getting the dungeon crawler bonus? I think you guys have given me a good feel for the answer though.
Definitely maybe.
It is yet to be discovered. The full scale of bonus is unknown at the moment as we haven't seen a single loot from dungeon bosses. However it's certain that DC doesn't give you an immediate financial value, it rather improves your deck as you progress further into PvE.

MasterPlan
05-28-2013, 11:59 PM
Have you looked at the effects equipment and socketing has on cards. Its pretty broken and drastic, The PVE cards because they are not balanced against PVP also tend to be pretty powerful, based on those statements I am not sure what kind of balance issues you are referring to.