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TheDiv
05-29-2013, 10:40 PM
Hi guys! I was just looking at the lovely Princess Victoria and I got thinking about how viable a deck would be if you were depending on a particular card being in your opening hand.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/PrincessVict-215x300.png (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/cards.php?c=44)

Princess Victoria for example costs 0 if she's in your opening hand. With an Inspire effect of Lifedrain, that makes every card you play from then has Lifedrain. I'd love to see what crazy Lifedrain builds you can make with this and surely having her come in at turn 3 is still decent, but in turn 1 that could make for some really exciting games.

What do you guys think about having a deck semi-dependant on an opening hand? I guess all decks are too an extent but to what further extent do you want luck to play in your games?

ShaolinRaven
05-29-2013, 10:47 PM
Most cards that have a bonus if they end up in your starting hand are worth it to be in a deck that fits their over all theme without the starting hand dependency. Like Victoria, sure having her in your initial hand is great, but even if you get her later she still has a good inspire ability coupled with only a 3 cost and 1 diamond threshold.

So I don't have a problem with cards like that as long as they give me something if I don't draw them in an opening hand. IF a card requires me to have it in my opening hand to be worth playing I'll probably skip it. And sure these types of cards encourage mulligans to get them, but the people who do that can just as easily be giving up advantages with smaller opening hand sizes and a less then optimum starting hand just to get the "reveal" bonus.

That is part of the difference in experience curves as well, is looking at the whole card.

wallofomens
05-29-2013, 10:53 PM
In my latest video I talked about Argus, Herald of Doom (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/ArgusHeraldOfDoom-215x300.png). It can be alright if it's in your opening hand but rather bad otherwise - and I think that uncertainty is what makes the card not great.

There's also cards like Shrine of Prosperity (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/shrine_of_prosperity-215x300.png) and Zombie Plague (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/ZombiePlague-215x300.png) that if dropped on turn 2 are extremely good. But if dropped late game (turn 7+) they are absolutely useless.

alpha5099
05-29-2013, 10:54 PM
Hmm, just realized you would still need a Diamond resource, as the cost reduction doesn't change Victoria's threshold.

Grissnap
05-29-2013, 11:03 PM
You wouldn't want to make your deck completely based on the assumption that you will have Princess Victoria in your opening hand. The nice things about inspire based decks though is that they boost cards that come in play after. So even if you don't have her as your starting draw, you can drop her on turn 3 and potentially stiil boost her health and attack.

Though having her as a 0 cost is incredibly powerful, especially with Blessing the Fallen it doesn't matter if she dies... she'll still be 0 cost in the graveyard.

If you are going a human inspire deck, she is definitely worth considering.

Rapkannibale
05-30-2013, 01:44 AM
Well assuming you have a 60 card deck and you have 4 copies of a card with an "opening hand" requirment, the chances of having at least one of them in your opening hand are about 40%, so not too bad. If you don't get it first try you can try again with a mulligan at a reduced chance since you draw one less card each time.

The chances are calculated using something called Hypergeometric Calculation (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx). If you are into math you can look at that. :)

Zomnivore
05-30-2013, 01:52 AM
Seems like a very interesting strength.

TheDiv
05-30-2013, 01:54 AM
The chances are calculated using something called Hypergeometric Calculation (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx). If you are into math you can look at that. :)

This was fun until you introduced math :P

But seriously, good point. I think I will build a deck around Princess Victoria for PvE to really test it out before I get it PvP ready. Probably a Ruby/Diamond deck with some heavy hitting orcs :D

shocker455
05-30-2013, 02:04 AM
Are there any card that have and advantage for being in your opening hand in pvp? I thought they were all pve cards.

For pve, I could see people having a deck that relays on having a fast starting hand. Even if it was only for the first part of every dungeon, as they could just retry over and over until they got the starting cards they want. Then proceed to rush and beat the first combat in under 1 minute. After that changing to the normal, well constructed deck. (this is of course assuming you can change decks though dungeon)

Grissnap
05-30-2013, 02:06 AM
Nice link!

So the odds of getting at least 1 copy in either the opening hand or in the mulligan is roughly 61%.

TheWackyWombat
05-30-2013, 06:23 AM
Hmm, just realized you would still need a Diamond resource, as the cost reduction doesn't change Victoria's threshold.

True, but you're probably playing diamond if she's in your deck anyways. It just allows you to play: Resource, Victoria, 1 drop (now with lifelink) all on turn one.

Seems pretty good :)

Grissnap
05-30-2013, 06:25 AM
Yeah, its a decent rush. Also (however unlikely) she isn't unique, so if you have two in your hand, fun times ;)

alpha5099
05-30-2013, 06:56 AM
Are there any card that have and advantage for being in your opening hand in pvp? I thought they were all pve cards.

Princess Victoria is a PvP card.

TheWackyWombat
05-30-2013, 07:26 AM
Yeah, you have to double check a lot of the kickstarter reward cards, they're split between PvE exclusive cards and PvP alternate ART exclusive cards. Being a PvP card just makes her so much better, I'll definitely need to try and build a deck around her after launch.

jaxsonbateman
05-30-2013, 07:29 AM
In my latest video I talked about Argus, Herald of Doom (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/ArgusHeraldOfDoom-215x300.png). It can be alright if it's in your opening hand but rather bad otherwise - and I think that uncertainty is what makes the card not great.

There's also cards like Shrine of Prosperity (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/shrine_of_prosperity-215x300.png) and Zombie Plague (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/ZombiePlague-215x300.png) that if dropped on turn 2 are extremely good. But if dropped late game (turn 7+) they are absolutely useless.
From a PvP perspective (is Argus even in PvP? Sounds like it's probably going to be a dungeon card from that dwarf secret lair one), it'd probably be too risky to include him anyway outside of a reduced-cost-to-artifact deck, given that at best he'll be playable on turn 6, and if you don't get him in your opening hand it'll take him at least until turn 8 to do anything. Your opponent also knows exactly what's coming, so they'll be able to keep removal handy.

From a PvE perspective, his gear is pretty good. In particular, if you run the uncommon gear, you can include 4 copies of him without fear - as at worst, he's free, strong removal, and at best you get the creature out which is repeatable removal or a 4-turn clock.

As for the other cheap cards - in Magic, which this game is very similar to, it's more of than not the case that playing a cheap card late has much less impact than playing it early. It's not surprising that playing a 2 drop on turn 7 isn't as effective as playing it on turn 2. :-)



To talk about Princess Victoria - she's fine. She's awesome if you get her in the opening hand, and her boost is servicable if you draw into her. It's a tough choice though, and I'll be curious to see if she makes the competitive cut; at 2 power I would've been pretty sure, but at 1/2 for 3 I can see her being too much of a risk for most decks.

Turtlewing
05-30-2013, 07:35 AM
Are there any card that have and advantage for being in your opening hand in pvp? I thought they were all pve cards.


Well, Princess Victoria for one.

ShaolinRaven
05-30-2013, 09:46 AM
From a PvP perspective (is Argus even in PvP? Sounds like it's probably going to be a dungeon card from that dwarf secret lair one), it'd probably be too risky to include him anyway outside of a reduced-cost-to-artifact deck, given that at best he'll be playable on turn 6, and if you don't get him in your opening hand it'll take him at least until turn 8 to do anything. Your opponent also knows exactly what's coming, so they'll be able to keep removal handy.

From a PvE perspective, his gear is pretty good. In particular, if you run the uncommon gear, you can include 4 copies of him without fear - as at worst, he's free, strong removal, and at best you get the creature out which is repeatable removal or a 4-turn clock.

As for the other cheap cards - in Magic, which this game is very similar to, it's more of than not the case that playing a cheap card late has much less impact than playing it early. It's not surprising that playing a 2 drop on turn 7 isn't as effective as playing it on turn 2. :-)



To talk about Princess Victoria - she's fine. She's awesome if you get her in the opening hand, and her boost is servicable if you draw into her. It's a tough choice though, and I'll be curious to see if she makes the competitive cut; at 2 power I would've been pretty sure, but at 1/2 for 3 I can see her being too much of a risk for most decks.

Victoria is competitive more for her Inspire effect then her 1/3. Even drawing into her she gives any troop that is equal or greater in casting cost Lifedrain. And if you play Blessing the Fallen, even if an opponent destroys her she still Inspires from the discard pile.

jaxsonbateman
05-30-2013, 10:08 AM
It's a very tough call on her. She's perfectly, perfectly playable from the opening hand. If not, she's a way-below-curve 3 drop that grants conditional lifedrain. Will the conditional lifedrain be worth it? We haven't seen too many of the white 3 drops yet, but for 3 mana she's definitely inferior to the other inspirer that gives permanent +1/+1 (in the inspire archetype that she'd fit into, a power and toughness boost would generally be better than lifedrain).

I could see her being a potential 2 or 3 of in that sort of deck, in the hopes that you'd get her in your opening hand, but also the hopes that you wouldn't draw multiples.