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Rapkannibale
05-31-2013, 12:00 AM
Hi all,

So I was reading the interview the fine folk at CZE did with Gamasutra and there was one topic I am concerned with:

"Since Cryptozoic is best known for its physical card games and board games, will there be any cross-product promotion, perhaps a redeemable code for a free booster pack or starter deck included with future physical products from Cryptozoic?

Cory: We absolutely can and will do that. We can even take it one step further at live events like Gen Con or PAX where we can potentially host side tournaments and give away exclusive redeemable Mercenary cards for attendees. Other digital games have done this to great success in years past and there's no reason why we wouldn't do the same for our fans."

In my opinion having exclusive content at these kind of events goes against the whole philosophy of this being a digital TCG. Don't get me wrong. I think them having live events is great, but please don't give out content that is only available at those venues.

As Cory has said, a big part of the appeal of this game is that older TCG fans like myself won't need to go to physical stores or conventions to play the game casually and especially competitively. However, and I think I am not alone here, many of us are collectors and like to have every card and giving out exclusive content at, let's say GenCon will be frustrating for many since they can't attend these events.

Exclusive content is great but it is at its best when everyone has the potential of getting it. For example, the KS offers a lot of exclusive content, but everyone (well almost everyone) has the potential of getting in on that exclusivity.

Now you could say that everyone has the potential of going to GenCon. And you would be right, however it would require a lot of money and time to get there, especially if you live in Europe or Asia. If I had the money and time to go to these events, I would still be playing Magic. :) This game is supposed to fully embrace the digital aspect, so it would make sense for them to limit the exclusivity to digital means. Cards available during a limited period of time. Special seasonal boosters with exclusive cards. Exclusive cards for winning tournaments. There are many options that won't require people to go to a convention.

Even adding exclusive content to some of their boardgames would still be OK (even though it would be walking a fine line - I don't really want to have to buy a boardgame I am not interested in just to get an exclusive card), because these games you can simply buy online.

So I would kindly request to keep digital exclusive content to the digital world and offer physical exclusive content (Shirts, physical card sleeves, etc) for the live events instead.

Anyway, do you guys and gals feel similarly or do you love flying to all sorts of different conventions to get exclusive content? Or do you just don't care? :)

Cheers!

jaxsonbateman
05-31-2013, 12:06 AM
I'd imagine you could still trade for these cards, though the rarity would make them quite out of reach for a lot of people. As a former WoW player, something that did annoy me from time to time with WoW was the special pets that BlizzCon players got access to. BlizzCon was never an option for me, given that I live in a different country, so I could either fork over an absurd amount of money to get one of these codes, or just not have it. Of course, I didn't care enough to even contemplate paying for any of the pets, but it was a bit annoying that a dedicated player like myself was locked out of some cool stuff simply due to physical location. It's not like my physical location ever stopped me from playing and supporting the game. :-P

Mottschi
05-31-2013, 12:15 AM
I'd imagine you could still trade for these cards, though the rarity would make them quite out of reach for a lot of people. As a former WoW player, something that did annoy me from time to time with WoW was the special pets that BlizzCon players got access to. BlizzCon was never an option for me, given that I live in a different country, so I could either fork over an absurd amount of money to get one of these codes, or just not have it. Of course, I didn't care enough to even contemplate paying for any of the pets, but it was a bit annoying that a dedicated player like myself was locked out of some cool stuff simply due to physical location. It's not like my physical location ever stopped me from playing and supporting the game. :-P

Since you bring up Blizzcon - Blizzard actually changed things a couple years ago, now you only need to buy access to the Blizzon video stream to get the pets - seems like a fair alternative and might work here as well.

Rapkannibale
05-31-2013, 12:22 AM
Since you bring up Blizzcon - Blizzard actually changed things a couple years ago, now you only need to buy access to the Blizzon video stream to get the pets - seems like a fair alternative and might work here as well.

Agree, that would be a good compromise. You could get the exclusive cards/mercs at the event for free or buy them online while the event lasts for those people that can't go there.

imacpc
05-31-2013, 12:30 AM
i actually think giving exclusive card in live event are awesome as long as the card doesnt effect the gameplay. I reckon giving players exclusive alternate art cards instead of Mercenary cards or what ever would be a better idea. It gives players that attend something valuable and at the same time stops people crying about it cause it doesnt effect the game at all

Patrigan
05-31-2013, 12:36 AM
The mercenaries and exclusive PVE card are the only reason why I didn't even bother to pledge below king... The game itself made me pledge more than the king :p

Snoop
05-31-2013, 12:48 AM
I agree, a exclusive mercenary might be much, I'm all for alternate art codes at events.

funktion
05-31-2013, 12:56 AM
I really don't see what you're concerned about. Just because I can't have something doesn't mean others shouldn't. If you're saying you're a completionist and want to have every single card, well then part of that means that you're going to go to extra lengths to satisfy that need.

Honestly, your post says more to me about you, than it does to me about the developers of this game...

jaxsonbateman
05-31-2013, 01:03 AM
I really don't see what you're concerned about. Just because I can't have something doesn't mean others shouldn't. If you're saying you're a completionist and want to have every single card, well then part of that means that you're going to go to extra lengths to satisfy that need.

Honestly, your post says more to me about you, than it does to me about the developers of this game...
Alternate art is one thing - it's vanity. It doesn't affect gameplay. It's basically a reward for being able to attend the event.

Mercenaries and exclusive cards though; these do affect gameplay. If you're lucky enough to be close to where the event is held, or rich enough that travelling there isn't an issue, you get a gameplay boost. If you're not, too bad so sad.

We've had topics about a potential real money store which players would be fine with for vanity items, but far less happy with if it had gameplay impacting cards (as this turns the game more into pay-to-win). Exclusive physical event cards which aren't just AA would be a similar case.

Jacklau89
05-31-2013, 01:11 AM
I too would like to point out there are players like me who does not reside in US, meaning its impractical for us to attend local events. Its a great idea to give out special card/mercenary to those who attended, yet it would be even better to also offer a chance for overseas to participate the event online and have the same exclusive too:)

Hibbert
05-31-2013, 01:33 AM
I think exclusives for live events, merchandise, etc. are a good idea. Alternate art cards and sleeves would be the most acceptable for everyone, as they are purely cosmetic. Pre-release cards would be okay with me also. They might be exclusive and hard to get for a while, but eventually they would be easier to get.

Exclusive cards are a bit trickier. I'd assume only PvE cards would even be considered for something like that. Even though PvE's balance is looser than PvP's, it'd be annoying to see some con exclusive card become a cornerstone of some Keep Defense decks or an easy way to kill a raid boss. I actually have this problem with the KS exclusive PvE cards too, but it seems like most of them are more flavorful than powerful(Spectral Lotus aside, but that's a different case). If the cards turned out more like "Sewers of Estark" rather than "Mana Crypt"(to use a few MTG exclusive promo card examples), I would probably be okay with them.

Exclusive mercenaries are the most problematic. They present the same possible balance problems as the exclusive cards and on top of that, they aren't tradable. At least with the exclusive cards if someone wants them enough, they can buy them on the AH. We haven't really seen the full use of mercenaries in the game yet though. They might turn out to be like "heirlooms" in WoW. They might help you level a new champion faster, but be completely worse than a fully leveled champion. Still my vote would be leaning towards no on exclusive mercenaries, especially if there's no trading of them.

Lunarath
05-31-2013, 01:39 AM
I think that if you give away cards at these events it should be something purely cosmetic like maybe an alternate art. It's not a possibility for everyone to go these events and i think alot of people would feel bumped out by not getting this rare exclusive simply because they don't have thousands of europe to take a trip to the USA and stay for a week. Unless there's some online compromise like was mentioned before. Maybe an online pass for the HEX booth? idk

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 01:40 AM
I dunno. Likely you could find the merc code online for a bit. Like lol skin codes.

However, if they made a custom card for winners of the circuit that only those people get and use, that's perfectly legit IMO.

Swordmage
05-31-2013, 02:13 AM
I too would like to point out there are players like me who does not reside in US, meaning its impractical for us to attend local events. Its a great idea to give out special card/mercenary to those who attended, yet it would be even better to also offer a chance for overseas to participate the event online and have the same exclusive too:)

+1 to this. As an ex-pat living in France, it would be doubly painful to get my hands on any live exclusives if they don't offer online versions.

Madican
05-31-2013, 02:32 AM
I'd prefer if con stuff was kept to cosmetic items or cards, since they can be traded/sold.

benczi
05-31-2013, 02:34 AM
+1 to this. As an ex-pat living in France, it would be doubly painful to get my hands on any live exclusives if they don't offer online versions.

For crying out loud, quit crying over not getting 1 mercenary card, that you can only use in pve anyway.

jaxsonbateman
05-31-2013, 02:45 AM
For crying out loud, quit crying over not getting 1 mercenary card, that you can only use in pve anyway.
Some of us like PvE, and want to be able to have access to the cards. One of the key points of being a digital TCG was accessibility, and requiring physical travel as the only way of getting an exclusive card (not an AA card) goes against that accessibility.

As a middle income Australian it's nigh impossible for me to get to American game conventions - I just can't afford the large travel expenses. Having a digital option to acquire the cards/mercs would be peachy though, or just having vanity rewards for those that attend.

Someone mentioned Blizz moving to allowing people who subbed to the BlizzCon stream to get the rewards - that sounds like it'd be a good idea which would cater to us who can't actually attend.

Rapkannibale
05-31-2013, 02:55 AM
For crying out loud, quit crying over not getting 1 mercenary card, that you can only use in pve anyway.

People need to stop equating expressing an opinion or concern with crying. The forums are here so people can talk about the game. Positive and negative aspects. My thread wasn't a QQ post at all. I laid out my arguments and am interested in knowing what others think. If they do have exclusive content at live events it is not going to make me like this game less, but I am free to express my opinion. If you are not interested then why are you wasting your time reading this and posting a reply. You are free to ignore topics you are not interested in. Your reply did not contribute a single thing to the discussion.

Moving on and thanks to every one else who actually contributed to the discussion. :)

Fireblast
05-31-2013, 02:59 AM
The real issue is that Cory said "Mercenaries" which are NON tradeable.
I don't wanna buy codes on Ebay, I'd be happy to pay $10-$20 for stream access and digital rewards tho

~

Patrigan
05-31-2013, 03:00 AM
For crying out loud, quit crying over not getting 1 mercenary card, that you can only use in pve anyway.

For some people PvE > PvP.

Now imagine that there was this really cool PvP card handed out only at these events. Now try to feel those feels and imagine what PvP likers feel. The kickstarter exclusives were already a bad precedent, I hope they don't repeat it.

Fireblast
05-31-2013, 03:03 AM
The kickstarter exclusives were already a bad precedent, I hope they don't repeat it.

During my WOWTCG time I was often disagreeing with you.
But since HEX I couldn't agree more!

~

Dralon
05-31-2013, 03:09 AM
I really don't see what you're concerned about. Just because I can't have something doesn't mean others shouldn't. If you're saying you're a completionist and want to have every single card, well then part of that means that you're going to go to extra lengths to satisfy that need.

Honestly, your post says more to me about you, than it does to me about the developers of this game...

You don't see the concern? Did you see the t shirt thread, where 40% of players had a concern about not being able to obtain a card, that would have been much easier to obtain than , say, a gen con exclusive? You can disagree, but the concern is valid.

That being said, I am ok with exclusive art card codes at special events, live or digital, But not okay with cards with unique gameplay only obtainable that way. As a collector, I know if you want every variation of an item, it is going to be difficult, expensive, and for some people impossible. But all cards that have unique gameplay , both in PVE and pvp, should be available with reasonable effort and reasonable cost. If you are going to offer a free live event card with exclusive gameplay at gencon, for example, also offer it in your in game store for a reasonable cost as a "premium card". Though even that would open up the debate about what is reasonable, as was evidenced in the t shirt thread.

Hatts
05-31-2013, 07:23 AM
For PVP I totally understand the concern, I think all playable cards should be obtainable through boosters. Alternate art for PVP cards is perfectly fine to be an exclusive IMO. The goal here is ensuring a level playing field for constructed tournaments (ignoring the costs of building your deck for the moment.)

I have no issues with exclusive cards for PvE, I think they should be a common occurrence. Beat the limited time Halloween dungeon? Get an exclusive Headless horseman. Go to Pax? Get an exclusive Tycho mercenary.

Getting something exclusive is a great bonus and it's something people enjoy. The trick is to do it often enough so that everyone has chances at exclusive cards so that they aren't hurt at missing other ones.

I think completionist collectors are going to have a bad time in this game already. It will be like expecting to be able to collect every piece of loot in WoW.

Hieronymous
05-31-2013, 07:47 AM
Yeah, I'd prefer if convention rewards were limited to art, sleeves, and the like. Maybe PvE cards of some kind. Definitely not anything PvP legal.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 09:27 AM
I don't mind "exclusives" for live-events, as long as there's a chance to obtain them in-game at the same time.

You can make it expire at the same time as well.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 09:28 AM
I don't mind "exclusives" for live-events, as long as there's a chance to obtain them in-game at the same time.

You can make it expire at the same time as well.

Exception being tournament-type live-events. Then you can give the winners something exclusive...

jai151
05-31-2013, 09:34 AM
I always prefer the MTG style alternate art single. Everyone likes getting a card, and no one really gets mad about it.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 09:36 AM
I always prefer the MTG style alternate art single. Everyone likes getting a card, and no one really gets mad about it.

Special promo-foils with Alternative Art, and the event stamped on the border, like pre-release events?

jai151
05-31-2013, 09:37 AM
Special promo-foils with Alternative Art, and the event stamped on the border, like pre-release events?

Yep. Though I think all the ones I've gotten, the event is ghosted in the foil over the text box.

Zomnivore
05-31-2013, 09:40 AM
I hope if they do live event cards...that people can pay to watch a stream or something and get the exclusive.

I really don't like watching those swag bag handouts that get grabbed up and then resold for profit...because you couldn't take a couple thousand dollar trip to go to an event.

Hatts
05-31-2013, 10:01 AM
I really don't like watching those swag bag handouts that get grabbed up and then resold for profit...because you couldn't take a couple thousand dollar trip to go to an event.

Wait, Wut? Exclusives from swag bags can be resold for more than a couple of thousand dollars? I think you mean selling handouts reduces the cost of the trip by a marginal amount.

MrCwis
05-31-2013, 10:09 AM
I think the T-shirt should set a precedent that the community doesn't like exclusives that come from a physical object.

On that note alternate art, primal packs or thing that every one has a chance at getting I'm okay with. If I didn't see this kickstarter to get the exclusive mercs I would have felt like I'm missing a big part of the game. We're getting 5 mercs that no one else will be able to play, to me that's 5 architype decks that is now limited to us. I pledged King right off the bat just so I wouldn't miss anything, then upped to PP for the value and then GK just so that I serious wouldn't miss anything.

Now I won't feel "cheated" if they eventually offered these mercs to other players, but they are a really big reason as to why i so readily pledged my money into this kickstarter.

Wolver_the_Zeta
05-31-2013, 10:23 AM
Please only alternate art exclusives, or vanity type items!! I don't see harm in an alternate art card showing you went to a tournament, or conference, but nothing that will be game-play that others can't join it!

nearlysober
05-31-2013, 10:35 AM
I think the T-shirt should set a precedent that the community doesn't like exclusives that come from a physical object. They don't like exclusives that come with buying an item.

But I agree that unique exclusives, even if just PvE cards or Mercs is somewhat problematic. Mercs can't even be traded.

I'd be fine with them keeping it to alternate art cards or vanity items. Most TCSs would use extended art, or foils... but those will be unlocked ingame.

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 11:01 AM
People should get rewards for going to events, it is a major purchase for most people. Pretty much every event anywhere gives swag, that's good and okay, buy them in eBay after if you want.

Hatts
05-31-2013, 11:04 AM
We're getting 5 mercs that no one else will be able to play, to me that's 5 architype decks that is now limited to us.

That's a massive assumption, those archetypes could be the same as the first 5 mercenaries you encounter in game.

odjn
05-31-2013, 11:05 AM
People should get rewards for going to events, it is a major purchase for most people. Pretty much every event anywhere gives swag, that's good and okay, buy them in eBay after if you want.

But you can't buy mercs :/

And I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea of rewards for players going to these events, but the conversation is about those reward. I for one don't believe they should lockout game content that is more than cosmetic, i.e. game content that actually affects play.
-odjn

MrCwis
05-31-2013, 11:08 AM
That's a massive assumption, those archetypes could be the same as the first 5 mercenaries you encounter in game.

Maybe they will be, and I certainly hope there will be an easier way to get the Mustachioed Gang into play than hoping in the 1% chance the Mooof gives me, but if there isn't I'm going to be playing with Mooof a lot to see those guys.

Kilo24
05-31-2013, 12:39 PM
Maybe they will be, and I certainly hope there will be an easier way to get the Mustachioed Gang into play than hoping in the 1% chance the Mooof gives me, but if there isn't I'm going to be playing with Mooof a lot to see those guys.
Keep the charge ability in mind: each Shroomkin doubles the chance for Moof's abilities to proc. It's unconfirmed if it's exponential or multiplicative (i.e. if x2 Shroomkins give x4 the chance or x3 - I'd guess exponential), but it's not quite just a 1% chance per turn.

Hatts
05-31-2013, 01:37 PM
Has anyone opinions on this changed after the PvE article today? There will be exclusive cards depending on which faction you choose. Once you chose a faction there is no going back for that character.

nearlysober
05-31-2013, 01:40 PM
Yeah, but your collection spans multiple characters.
Just play through again with a different character and make other faction choices. You'll still be able to collect everything.

Awarding PvP vanity cards (alternate alt) for example at Cons & in-person tourneys... i think is fine. It gives more things to collect. If everything is equally available to everyone... there's no trading/collecting aspect.

I'd be firmly against PvP unique cards via any method but boosters.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 01:42 PM
I'd be firmly against PvP unique cards via any method but boosters.

Or freebies to everyone. :)

Shivdaddy
05-31-2013, 02:48 PM
Man I hate people complaining about stuff like this. Its not like anyone ever releases game breaking items in these types of promos.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 02:53 PM
I was listening to Geek Allstar's podcast, and Cory basically says he REALLY loves the idea of playing around with mercenaries, and there's going to be a large number of them, some of which will be mutually exclusive already due to the way you get them in the game.

He's committed to not putting out exclusive cards, but mercenaries is going to be where he tries out wacky ideas for promos.

Of course, there's also cosmetic items like deck sleeves and what-not.

WizBang
05-31-2013, 03:05 PM
I was listening to Geek Allstar's podcast, and Cory basically says he REALLY loves the idea of playing around with mercenaries, and there's going to be a large number of them, some of which will be mutually exclusive already due to the way you get them in the game.

He's committed to not putting out exclusive cards, but mercenaries is going to be where he tries out wacky ideas for promos.

Of course, there's also cosmetic items like deck sleeves and what-not.

It would be cool if part of the Collector tier was that they also got all the codes from conventions for mercenaries and such. So, if there was a special Mercenary for Gencon...Collectors get an email with a code too. Just a way to add value to the Collector tier.

Marsden
05-31-2013, 03:54 PM
It would be cool if part of the Collector tier was that they also got all the codes from conventions for mercenaries and such. So, if there was a special Mercenary for Gencon...Collectors get an email with a code too. Just a way to add value to the Collector tier.

That's a great idea!

Genocidal
05-31-2013, 04:35 PM
Man I hate people complaining about stuff like this. Its not like anyone ever releases game breaking items in these types of promos.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mbp/6.jpg

ramseytheory
05-31-2013, 04:47 PM
Man I hate people complaining about stuff like this. Its not like anyone ever releases game breaking items in these types of promos.

Go look up Edwin VanCleef in WoWTCG. Thankfully that's a mistake CZE have only made once, and I doubt they'll make it again.

Jinuyr
05-31-2013, 04:52 PM
I agree, keep it all within the game. No random promos that end up being farmed and sold for outrageous prices.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 04:53 PM
Go look up Edwin VanCleef in WoWTCG. Thankfully that's a mistake CZE have only made once, and I doubt they'll make it again.

Was that an exclusive promo card or an alt art promo?

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 04:54 PM
But you can't buy mercs :/

And I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea of rewards for players going to these events, but the conversation is about those reward. I for one don't believe they should lockout game content that is more than cosmetic, i.e. game content that actually affects play.
-odjn

They're talking about giving away codes that unlock mercs, you can buy the codes from people on ebay. People always sell swag from these live events to try to recoup the costs of going to them.

Travis
05-31-2013, 05:14 PM
Anything extra to help get people to live events is a bonus. They should give people that spend their hard earned money to travel to events something special for making the effort. So sick of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. If you can't make an event oh well. Pay the secondary market cost to acquire items. It goes without saying that they will not be pvp cards that will impact their tournament scene. The PVE stuff/mercenaries while cool do not throw and imbalance in the game. If you can't afford the secondary market cost for these items, too bad. Sell some stuff. I realize it's Fans First but hardcore fans, fans willing to travel and show up to big events should get extra stuff. If you can't afford it, you probably shouldn't have it. I mean this is a digital game. Most of the time you will be able to get anything you want from wherever you choose to play.

funktion
05-31-2013, 05:37 PM
Alternate art is one thing - it's vanity. It doesn't affect gameplay. It's basically a reward for being able to attend the event.

Mercenaries and exclusive cards though; these do affect gameplay. If you're lucky enough to be close to where the event is held, or rich enough that travelling there isn't an issue, you get a gameplay boost. If you're not, too bad so sad.

Alright on that note then, I agree with you. I'm all for REALLY cool alternate art promo's. In fact there's a few MTG alternate art promo's that I really wish I had but I don't. But sure, if it's a CARD that is completely exclusive to that event and not printed in any other forms, that seems like a no-win situation.

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 05:38 PM
Also. Cory said in that same interview about the titan squirrels and dinosaurs that if you get the grand champion card for one faction you cannot have the grand champion card for the other faction on the same account. So you will not be able to have every card. Period. The real question becomes, are those cards not tradable? If you attempt to trade one to someone who has the other, does it fail? does the guy lose the card? Who knows.

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 05:39 PM
Alternate art is one thing - it's vanity. It doesn't affect gameplay. It's basically a reward for being able to attend the event.

Mercenaries and exclusive cards though; these do affect gameplay. If you're lucky enough to be close to where the event is held, or rich enough that travelling there isn't an issue, you get a gameplay boost. If you're not, too bad so sad.


Alright on that note then, I agree with you. I'm all for REALLY cool alternate art promo's. In fact there's a few MTG alternate art promo's that I really wish I had but I don't. But sure, if it's a CARD that is completely exclusive to that event and not printed in any other forms, that seems like a no-win situation.

That same argument goes against all the merc rewards for kickstarter? We were lucky enough to be able to hear about it in time to pledge, and rich enough to be able to pledge in our respective tiers. People seriously need to grow up.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 05:40 PM
Also. Cory said in that same interview about the titan squirrels and dinosaurs that if you get the grand champion card for one faction you cannot have the grand champion card for the other faction on the same account. So you will not be able to have every card. Period. The real question becomes, are those cards not tradable? If you attempt to trade one to someone who has the other, does it fail? does the guy lose the card? Who knows.

You lose the account.

ramseytheory
05-31-2013, 06:23 PM
Was that an exclusive promo card or an alt art promo?

I don't play WoWTCG, so if I've got any of this wrong feel free to correct me, but I did a bit of research after I kept hearing people talk about it and as far as I can tell this is what happened. CZE did a side game (dungeon decks) which contained a few exclusive cards usable in the main game. Only one of these was any good, namely Edwin. Unfortunately, Edwin was both extremely rare and extremely powerful, to the point where almost all tournament decks were using four copies. So people were having to buy whole boxes of otherwise useless cards in the hopes of maybe getting a single Edwin, and individual copies of the card were going for hundreds of dollars.

I should probably note at this point that Cory specifically said he would never bundle Hex cards with another product in the GeekAllStars interview, so it looks like CZE learned the right lesson from it.

Ramshackal
05-31-2013, 07:10 PM
Honestly I think they should give away some exclusive stuff at these conventions. It has the potential to bring in a lot of new players. If I was even slightly interested in the game, and received some kind of exclusive benefit I would be more inclined to try it out.

Best Solutions:

PVE cards with fun, but mostly useless effects
PVP cards with a different name/art but the same stats as an existing card


Examples:
PVE Card: Random champion gains a charge.
PVP Card: Likeness of tournament champion, with stats of an existing PVP card.

I understand the two viewpoints, and I believe that if there is a way to strengthen the community through live event give aways then those collectors who are trying to "Catch 'Em All" should be more accepting of the idea. These collectors also likely have many cards they can trade that are worth more than these exclusive give aways.

Jacklau89
06-01-2013, 12:30 AM
That same argument goes against all the merc rewards for kickstarter? We were lucky enough to be able to hear about it in time to pledge, and rich enough to be able to pledge in our respective tiers. People seriously need to grow up.

The argumeny does not apply to KickStarter, unfortunately. We all share the same internet and more or less, the same calender. Everyone pays the same for their king tier, $120, instead of $1200 for those outside US.

I understand the importance of live events and how providing exclusives attracts both both existing and potentially new players (which is awesome), but you also need to aware it is unrealistic for those in EU and Asia to travel there in person (in terms of fares & time). Leaving things to sort out in market exchange gives a feeling that those players are being "left out" and excluded.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 12:38 AM
I'll actually not be surprised that 'latecomers' to the game might get annoyed at the sick pledge bonuses. We get a whole bunch of awesome stuff because we were lucky/informed enough to hear about it in time, and they weren't.

But then, they needed the pledges, and needed to sweeten the deal enough to actually convince a lot of people to fork out that money. It worked. We'll definitely be able to justify this to latecomers, even if they're a bit annoyed about the situation.

The big difference though is that the pledges are all happening online, so anyone in the world can do it right now. Physical only cards are very restrictive in comparison. We who don't live in the United States and aren't wealthy enough to jet over there are cut off, and if they're physical-only I can imagine they'd be exclusive enough to fetch a pretty sum.

Once again, I like the BlizzCon stream idea - that is, you get the goodies if you sub to the stream of the event. Alternatively, allowing people who can't attend a limited time option to buy the cards would also be good. Finally, if they're just alternate art it won't ruffle too many feathers as it has no gameplay impact.

Jacklau89
06-01-2013, 12:57 AM
@jaxson

Yeah the last thing I want to see is some player selling their KS account not because of dropping out but to "make profit", after the game launched. It will happen nevertheless, even if its not righteous.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 07:19 AM
The argumeny does not apply to KickStarter, unfortunately. We all share the same internet and more or less, the same calender. Everyone pays the same for their king tier, $120, instead of $1200 for those outside US.

I understand the importance of live events and how providing exclusives attracts both both existing and potentially new players (which is awesome), but you also need to aware it is unrealistic for those in EU and Asia to travel there in person (in terms of fares & time). Leaving things to sort out in market exchange gives a feeling that those players are being "left out" and excluded.

The entire argument hinges on 'i cannot get the thing someone else can get' that's true of everyone that doesn't or can't participate in this kickstarter, trying to fine grain is any more than that is just an attempt to not apply that logic to this situation you are benefitting from. I hope that they continue forward with their plan to offer mercenaries, and exclusive non pvp cards to people that make the trek to wherever they are having live events. These arguments about kickstarter rewards being in everyones grasp is patently ridiculous. A huge portion of the population of earth doesn't have Internet access right now, and doesn't have 120 it takes to get all the exclusive kickstarter stuff.

Its not any different than other people not having the opportunity to travel to wherever there events are.

Zomnivore
06-01-2013, 07:26 AM
I'm saying that some people literally take an hour or two long car ride, take a couple swag bags and if they've car pooled or what have you...they can certainly turn a profit.

I'm going off what I heard from some league of legends event stuff.

And no you misinterpreted what I'd said. I can't take 1000 time off w/e go to an event come back thats not a reasonable expectation( I'm not saying you can make thousands off of selling swag), if you put an exclusive tied to an event...well I was never going to be able to go there realistically and if the cards cool...well now I have to deal with someone who could've lived in town and snagged some grab bags or something.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 07:27 AM
@jaxson

Yeah the last thing I want to see is some player selling their KS account not because of dropping out but to "make profit", after the game launched. It will happen nevertheless, even if its not righteous.

The last thing I want to see is our kickstarter accounts not having any value. Because that will mean that the game has failed. The secondary market for a TCG is the most important aspect. The fact that those boosters you buy for $2 can eventually possibly end up being worth more than that is a huge draw to people. Even now, many backers are selling magic cards to pay for this. It's kind of important that the option to do the exact same thing is available in this game, too.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 07:29 AM
I'm saying that some people literally take an hour long car ride, take a couple swag bags and if they've car pooled or what have you...they can certainly turn a profit.

I'm going off what I heard from some league of legends event stuff.

And no you misinterpreted what I'd said. I can't take 1000 time off w/e go to an event come back thats not a reasonable expectation( I'm not saying you can make thousands off of selling swag), if you put an exclusive tied to an event...well I was never going to be able to go there realistically and if the cards cool...well now I have to deal with someone who could've lived in town and snagged some grab bags or something.

There's nothing wrong with that. At all. That's actually a very healthy sign of a game. People being able to make money off of this game is not some sort of mortal sin. If someone loves the game enough to buy a merc on ebay from a guy that attended an event, that's very unlikely to stop him from ever giving money to CZE. What is the problem you're trying to solve here?

Zomnivore
06-01-2013, 07:37 AM
There's nothing wrong with that. At all. That's actually a very healthy sign of a game. People being able to make money off of this game is not some sort of mortal sin. If someone loves the game enough to buy a merc on ebay from a guy that attended an event, that's very unlikely to stop him from ever giving money to CZE. What is the problem you're trying to solve here?

Well, that was the idea with the t-shirt thing, but they steered away from that.

ramseytheory
06-01-2013, 07:38 AM
There's nothing wrong with that. At all. That's actually a very healthy sign of a game. People being able to make money off of this game is not some sort of mortal sin. If someone loves the game enough to buy a merc on ebay from a guy that attended an event, that's very unlikely to stop him from ever giving money to CZE. What is the problem you're trying to solve here?

That the guy living in the convention city is able to pay a few dollars in entrance fees and fuel to get the cards, while I would need to take time off work and spend anything up to a thousand dollars on travel and accommodation to get the exact same cards. This is not a difficult concept.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 07:39 AM
Well, that was the idea with the t-shirt thing, but they steered away from that.

The difference that Cory said between the tshirt and this is that the tshirt came with a card while these are mercs. Mercs are account bound and you can only have one. It's a bit different but also similar...I'm ok w/it though.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 07:39 AM
...realize that those cards don't magically appear on the market if he doesn't do that?

Talreth
06-01-2013, 07:40 AM
That the guy living in the convention city is able to pay a few dollars in entrance fees and fuel to get the cards, while I would need to take time off work and spend anything up to a thousand dollars on travel and accommodation to get the exact same cards. This is not a difficult concept.

They're not cards, and you probably don't need to spend more than 20 bucks to get them.

Zomnivore
06-01-2013, 07:51 AM
The difference that Cory said between the tshirt and this is that the tshirt came with a card while these are mercs. Mercs are account bound and you can only have one. It's a bit different but also similar...I'm ok w/it though.

The title stated exclusives, I was talking about card exclusives. I don't really care about mercs too much, although I think a pve fan would.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 08:18 AM
That the guy living in the convention city is able to pay a few dollars in entrance fees and fuel to get the cards, while I would need to take time off work and spend anything up to a thousand dollars on travel and accommodation to get the exact same cards. This is not a difficult concept.

What isn't a difficult concept is the fact that everyone is not entitled to everything. There are certainly things you can get easily in your city that I cannot get in mine, that is not unfair. It's just the way the world is. I will not be going to any conventions at all, but I can buy them on ebay from the guy that lives in the town and doesn't want them. People selling things that they have easy access to, to people that don't have that access is in every game, every activity, every everything everywhere in all human history.

Diplo
06-01-2013, 08:29 AM
I feel like some people are failing to remember that CZE's goal is a strong community before all else. I know a large portion of the community would be irked if all these exclusive events were only held in the U.S. and there was no way around it. Jut as I'm sure if Cory said all exclusive events would only be held in Somalia, then suddenly everyone would start chiming in... unless they had a pirate ship.

Just my 2 cents

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 08:47 AM
What isn't a difficult concept is the fact that everyone is not entitled to everything. There are certainly things you can get easily in your city that I cannot get in mine, that is not unfair. It's just the way the world is. I will not be going to any conventions at all, but I can buy them on ebay from the guy that lives in the town and doesn't want them. People selling things that they have easy access to, to people that don't have that access is in every game, every activity, every everything everywhere in all human history.
Everyone isn't entitled to everything. However, people getting an item for free (besides the entry cost of the con) when others can't feasibly attend that physical location is going to irritate a lot of people, when in the digital age - and a ease of accessibility is one thing that they loved about developing an MMOTCG - they can make it possible for people who can't attend to get that item.

Essentially, not giving people who cannot realistically attend a non-third party option to obtain the items would be a slight on the community at large. Nothing's stopping them.

MugenMusou
06-01-2013, 08:58 AM
I did not read all post. But just want to make sure. The recent PodCast by The Geek Allstars cover the topic. Cory Jones says based on the response he got from T-shirt, he will make sure no exclusive cards to affect the game play. The things he'll be providing are those that are not tradable on auction house e.g. Mercenaries, sleeves. No of course if they provide these with some redemption code for digital game, one can always sell the code on Ebay but at least its not transferrable so perhaps the value is not as high and obviously should not affect the actual game play.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 09:08 AM
Having them not transferable after they have been applied greatly restricts the gray market, but I don't think that is what people are concerned about... Most are concerned with missing out on the unique / wacky mechanics and archetypes that these mercenaries provide and would probably prefer to have the option to buy them from others if they can't stop them from being produced at all.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 09:27 AM
Everyone isn't entitled to everything. However, people getting an item for free (besides the entry cost of the con) when others can't feasibly attend that physical location is going to irritate a lot of people, when in the digital age - and a ease of accessibility is one thing that they loved about developing an MMOTCG - they can make it possible for people who can't attend to get that item.

Essentially, not giving people who cannot realistically attend a non-third party option to obtain the items would be a slight on the community at large. Nothing's stopping them.


That's *exactly* what this kickstarter is doing, this is going to be a small population compared to the final game playerbase that have all kinds of exclusives no one else can get. Everyone that joins this kickstarter late, that didn't hear about it, or couldn't afford it, is just like the person who can't travel to that con. But you're perfectly fine with it because you're getting something. It is total nonsense.

MugenMusou
06-01-2013, 09:31 AM
Having them not transferable after they have been applied greatly restricts the gray market, but I don't think that is what people are concerned about... Most are concerned with missing out on the unique / wacky mechanics and archetypes that these mercenaries provide and would probably prefer to have the option to buy them from others if they can't stop them from being produced at all.

I see. I should have read posts. It makes sense. Promo thing is good, but personally the real ingame stuff is also as good. So rather than giving promo thing away, why won't they just give away the "free pack(s), free VIP subscription" and if wants to be timed exclusive special bonus, then give cards from next expansion.

This way people were provided with values, but people who could not attend have missed out free pack etc. but still can buy as regular.

Shinjica
06-01-2013, 09:33 AM
That's *exactly* what this kickstarter is doing, this is going to be a small population compared to the final game playerbase that have all kinds of exclusives no one else can get. Everyone that joins this kickstarter late, that didn't hear about it, or couldn't afford it, is just like the person who can't travel to that con. But you're perfectly fine with it because you're getting something. It is total nonsense.

I's different. In Internet everyone have the same chance, your not phisically blocked. Different is whit a gamecom where you cannot go because you live in another continent.

I dont see the problem, why not give special card only in digital events and sleeve, pack etc in physical event?

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:35 AM
I's different. In Internet everyone have the same chance, your not phisically blocked. Different is whit a gamecom where you cannot go because you live in another continent.

I dont see the problem, why not give special card only in digital events and sleeve, pack etc in physical event?

Holy shit, they're not giving away cards.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 09:36 AM
Not everone has the internet, or money to buy this month. We're incredibly lucky to have been in on this, and have disposable income to throw at it. I'm not saying it's bad we're getting exclusive stuff. I'm saying it is Ridiculous(with a capital r) to then turn around and tell everyone else everywhere they aren't allowed to be able to get access to things just like we have. Some local guy may not be able to pay 120 for kickstarter exclusives now, but next year can pay 30 bucks to go to a con, he should be able to get an exclusive merc, that literally doesn't matter to the game experience. It's the definition of entitlement mentallity, it is sickening.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:41 AM
an exclusive merc, that literally doesn't matter to the game experience.

I disagree with you there, the mercs have very specific deck building themes in mind.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:41 AM
I disagree with you there, the mercs have very specific deck building themes in mind.

Bebo would like to have a word with you.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 09:41 AM
+1 to Gwaer, Kickstarter backers have zero moral ground to argue against exclusives being handed out later. I don't see anyone backing out in protest.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:43 AM
Bebo would like to have a word with you.

One out of what, like seven? Ok. And depending on what the parts do or what they are it could still have a specific deck theme.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 09:48 AM
+1 to Gwaer, Kickstarter backers have zero moral ground to argue against exclusives being handed out later. I don't see anyone backing out in protest.
While I agree that some people will be annoyed at the sheer volume of stuff kickstarters get, and that will be understandable to a degree, the big difference here is availability - KS is digital, available to anyone in the know. Conventions are physical, and require attendance. This has been said numerous times already.

Not finding out about Hex until after KS is akin to not finding out about a convention giveaway until after the convention. Not being able to afford a KS is akin to not being able to afford to buy an entry ticket to the convention. There is no 'akin' when it comes to accessibility - anyone with the $10+ can get a KS. Anyone that can afford an entry ticket can *not* get the exclusives, because they require physical attendance.

I'm more than happy to sub to a stream, or simply buy the exclusives online as an alternative for those that can't attend; hell, I'm even happy to buy a ticket to the con that I'd never be able to go to - or I'd be happy to have the exclusives be purely vanity, like AA cards. I'm not happy to only offer them physically - it simply cuts off a huge part of the community, many of which might be very dedicated to the game (KSers after all).

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 09:48 AM
I disagree with you there, the mercs have very specific deck building themes in mind.

I think we just have a different threshhold for what qualifies as 'mattering to the game experience' Because you don't have access to a particular merc deck combo does not alter the fact that you have a ton of other mercs, and stil have access to every card that you would have used, just not the merc.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 09:49 AM
While I agree that some people will be annoyed at the sheer volume of stuff kickstarters get, and that will be understandable to a degree, the big difference here is availability - KS is digital, available to anyone in the know. Conventions are physical, and require attendance. This has been said numerous times already.

Not finding out about Hex until after KS is akin to not finding out about a convention giveaway until after the convention. Not being able to afford a KS is akin to not being able to afford to buy an entry ticket to the convention. There is no 'akin' when it comes to accessibility - anyone with the $10+ can get a KS. Anyone that can afford an entry ticket can *not* get the exclusives, because they require physical attendance.

I'm more than happy to sub to a stream, or simply buy the exclusives online as an alternative for those that can't attend; hell, I'm even happy to buy a ticket to the con that I'd never be able to go to - or I'd be happy to have the exclusives be purely vanity, like AA cards. I'm not happy to only offer them physically - it simply cuts off a huge part of the community, many of which might be very dedicated to the game (KSers after all).

Just buy the code online on ebay?

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:51 AM
I think we just have a different threshhold for what qualifies as 'mattering to the game experience' Because you don't have access to a particular merc deck combo does not alter the fact that you have a ton of other mercs, and stil have access to every card that you would have used, just not the merc.

I'm not saying it's a big difference, or one that should even be close to a dealbreaker for people, but for example I definitely got excited about the Athenya merc or whatever because I'm a big fan of angels and life gain decks. I plan on buying codes for all of them though, so nbd. Life's not fair, kids

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:51 AM
Just buy the code online on ebay?

I think the best alternative would be to just allow players to buy the same mercenary from the Hex online store for like $5-10 dollars during that weekend of the convention, then retire the mercenary forever, but that goes against their "cards only" motto.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:53 AM
I think the best alternative would be to just allow players to buy the same mercenary from the Hex online store for like $5-10 dollars during that weekend of the convention, then retire the mercenary forever, but that goes against their "cards only" motto.

One way they could do it is if you sub to their stream you get access to mercs from the cons or whatever.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:55 AM
One way they could do it is if you sub to their stream you get access to mercs from the cons or whatever.

True, on-stream giveaways of temporarily redeemable codes would be better.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 10:06 AM
Just buy the code online on ebay?
The issue with this is no price control by Crypto. If there's demand for those mercs - and because a lot of people can't attend, there probably will be if the game is as successful as it's appearing to be at this point - then the price could be crazy high. If Crypto tried to set prices that high, we could rightfully cry out to them for price gouging. Random members of the public do it, and there's nothing we can do.

I just cannot see why there'd be a problem with making them temporarily available online officially in some way, shape or form. Seems like there's no harm done. Those that don't care about them can ignore them, those that really want them but can't physically attend can still buy them. Everyone wins.

Of course, to make more incentive for people to physically attend (it's my understanding that most people attend for more than just the giveaways) they could still do the AA cards and vanity stuff. I think most people are fine with not getting exclusives like that.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 10:10 AM
Crypto has said they want to keep hands off completely on secondary markets, no price control whatsoever. So that's not much of an issue.

The same is true for like Black lotus, and beta decks, wizards has no control over that, I made $10,000 on magic cards. Why would it be a problem for someone else to make money on hex exclusives? What is the issue?

Shinjica
06-01-2013, 10:12 AM
Just buy the code online on ebay?

Why we dont turn the situation and only european have gamecon and american and asians have to buy it on Ebay?

Jacklau89
06-01-2013, 10:14 AM
Not everone has the internet, or money to buy this month. We're incredibly lucky to have been in on this, and have disposable income to throw at it. I'm not saying it's bad we're getting exclusive stuff. I'm saying it is Ridiculous(with a capital r) to then turn around and tell everyone else everywhere they aren't allowed to be able to get access to things just like we have. Some local guy may not be able to pay 120 for kickstarter exclusives now, but next year can pay 30 bucks to go to a con, he should be able to get an exclusive merc, that literally doesn't matter to the game experience. It's the definition of entitlement mentallity, it is sickening.

With no access to internet...well I suppose you won't even be able to know Hex ever exists. Good luck with that.

Perhaps you misinterpreted what some of us are referring to. Indeed we are all lucky enough to get known with Hex and have sufficient income to pledge for our desired tier to get exclusives, but this is available to everyone who have the same amount of money to spare. As long as anyone have $120, everyone enjoys the same opportunity to get their King tier (well at least for those who got internet:cool:). Lovely.

But is it true that everyone can pay $30 and have the same opportunity in accessing Gen Con?

--------------------------

I too find it great to have on-stream giveaways, so that everyone can have a fair chance to pay identical while joining the events and get the exclusives.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 10:16 AM
Why we dont turn the situation and only european have gamecon and american and asians have to buy it on Ebay?

There are game conventions all over the world. League of legends has skin codes at their foreign stuff, too. Also, america is quite big, Most people in the country cannot go to a convention in a specific place. I will not be at any of their cons, unless they come to Dragon Con. Which is in my city.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 10:29 AM
There are game conventions all over the world. League of legends has skin codes at their foreign stuff, too. Also, america is quite big, Most people in the country cannot go to a convention in a specific place. I will not be at any of their cons, unless they come to Dragon Con. Which is in my city.
Skin codes are aesthetic only and don't affect gameplay. I'm sure LoL fans would kick up a fuss if they offered an exclusive champion at X convention that no-one else could obtain. :-P

The issue I (and others) are having is, once again, that offering a gameplay-affecting exclusive in a physical-only capacity blocks off a huge section of the community from getting it. This is different from being late or missing the party (like I was with GK/PP, and I have no complaints about that), or from not being able to afford something. This is about a realistic issue with the physical-only aspect of the exclusive that the majority of players would face.

If they didn't somehow offer it to other players for a limited time, or make it cosmetic only, I'd be curious to see their reasoning.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 11:02 AM
If they didn't somehow offer it to other players for a limited time, or make it cosmetic only, I'd be curious to see their reasoning.

Cory covered this in a couple of ways on the geek allstars podcast. First he explained how you will never be able to get every card in the game when explaining the arena.

Secondly he said that he classifies mercenaries in the same category as sleeves, they are bells and whistles. He says he needs some space to rope off to do some fun / wacky / cool stuff and it will be impossible to get all mercenaries because there are going to be so many varied ways to get them (physical, KS, tournament / dungeon rewards, limited time events, promotions)

He also said he was kinda bummed out about it but this is his compromise based on the feedback from the t-shirt card poll. He'd prefer to do cards as well but he is listening to the feedback.

Genocidal
06-01-2013, 11:06 AM
One thing that people may be forgetting, is that most of these conventions are HUGE. You aren't going to have everyone or even half of everyone at the convention playing Hex, or any other game there -- which is fine! Some of these people will toss the promo code, others will give them away to friends, and others will put them up for sale. If they follow the League of Legends model and have seasonal promos, there will be a large supply of these promos on the secondary market, and plenty of in-person opportunities around the world to grab codes.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 11:10 AM
The issue with this is no price control by Crypto. If there's demand for those mercs - and because a lot of people can't attend, there probably will be if the game is as successful as it's appearing to be at this point - then the price could be crazy high. If Crypto tried to set prices that high, we could rightfully cry out to them for price gouging. Random members of the public do it, and there's nothing we can do.

I just cannot see why there'd be a problem with making them temporarily available online officially in some way, shape or form. Seems like there's no harm done. Those that don't care about them can ignore them, those that really want them but can't physically attend can still buy them. Everyone wins.

Of course, to make more incentive for people to physically attend (it's my understanding that most people attend for more than just the giveaways) they could still do the AA cards and vanity stuff. I think most people are fine with not getting exclusives like that.

Look at LoL, the most popular game in the world. Con skin prices are like 20 bucks.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 11:14 AM
Also, look at WoWTCG, where Edwin was worth several hundred dollars...
>_>

Anyway, the best idea given so far is just having a livestream event during the convention that broadcasts a redeemable code to all players.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 11:21 AM
Look at LoL, the most popular game in the world. Con skin prices are like 20 bucks.
While that is pleasing to see, and gives me hope if they don't provide an option for those that simply cannot feasibly attend, my one concern with this is that skins are aesthetic only (and from my own online friends are generally far less sought after), whereas mercs and PvE cards/equipment that would actually affect gameplay would be pretty desirable, even if they aren't the most powerful around. Just having them as an option is something a lot of people will want.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 11:36 AM
That's why they are limiting promotions to things that can't be traded - skins, mercenaries etc. Not cards/equipment.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 11:44 AM
Except mercs have an impact on gameplay. ;-) I actually wouldn't mind personally if they did AA cards for physically attending a con. It's the gameplay affecting stuff that I'm not happy about.

ramseytheory
06-01-2013, 11:45 AM
That's why they are limiting promotions to things that can't be traded - skins, mercenaries etc. Not cards/equipment.

Secondary market. People go to the cons, get the redemption codes for the mercenaries, and sell them online.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 11:57 AM
I know that a secondary market exists, I was just correcting jaxson who was incorrectly adding PVE cards and equipment in to the discussion. Cory said that the exclusives for live events would be things that could not be traded on the primary market. This also eliminates AA cards. Cryptozoic is never going to sell these types of things directly so if they don't do them as promotions then they just won't happen. There will be plenty of opportunities to get exclusive mercs and skins that don't involve going to a con.

Boogaloo
06-01-2013, 11:59 AM
I agree that exclusives related to all physical stuff / IRL events should be limited to purely cosmetic things, like sleeves (the most obvious piece of swag, since it's higly visible), character portraits, or alternative art cards.

If WoW is anything to go by, a lot of people will just enjoy the PvP environment and it's challenges, so I'd prefer to maintain balance by not allowing exclusive mercenaries, etc. that can affect that portion of the game (which, for all we know, might be bigger than the PvP component, though I think most of the posters on this forum tend to be more hardcore and PvP oriented than the majority of the potential market).

Hatts
06-01-2013, 12:01 PM
If WoW is anything to go by, a lot of people will just enjoy the PvP environment and it's challenges, so I'd prefer to maintain balance by not allowing exclusive mercenaries, etc. that can affect that portion of the game (which, for all we know, might be bigger than the PvP component, though I think most of the posters on this forum tend to be more hardcore and PvP oriented than the majority of the potential market).

I think one or more PvP's in that paragraph should be a PvE or else I am not parsing it properly.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 12:08 PM
I agree that exclusives related to all physical stuff / IRL events should be limited to purely cosmetic things, like sleeves (the most obvious piece of swag, since it's higly visible), character portraits, or alternative art cards.

If WoW is anything to go by, a lot of people will just enjoy the PvP environment and it's challenges, so I'd prefer to maintain balance by not allowing exclusive mercenaries, etc. that can affect that portion of the game (which, for all we know, might be bigger than the PvP component, though I think most of the posters on this forum tend to be more hardcore and PvP oriented than the majority of the potential market).

You cannot use mercs in pvp. They are pve only.

jai151
06-01-2013, 12:20 PM
Secondary market. People go to the cons, get the redemption codes for the mercenaries, and sell them online.

Then don't use a code. Have a tournament set up at the con for all attendees, with the promo card as the participation prize. With the authenticator, it would make it very unlikely that anyone would give login details AND their authenticator to someone to use at con.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 12:24 PM
Then don't use a code. Have a tournament set up at the con for all attendees, with the promo card as the participation prize. With the authenticator, it would make it very unlikely that anyone would give login details AND their authenticator to someone to use at con.

That would actually make it worse for everyone complaining they can't go to cons and want the exclusive stuff... Secondary market is good for you.

jai151
06-01-2013, 12:26 PM
That would actually make it worse for everyone complaining they can't go to cons and want the exclusive stuff... Secondary market is good for you.

Sorry, for some reason I was under the impression you were complaining about it going to the secondary market. My apologies

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 12:28 PM
I still think the most elegant solution to this would be to live-stream some sort of event during cons with the code in the event (timed), or message blast every player with a code that expires in about 24-hours.

I prefer the former, just so people don't complain "I didn't understand the time limit" stuff.

jai151
06-01-2013, 12:34 PM
I still think the most elegant solution to this would be to live-stream some sort of event during cons with the code in the event (timed), or message blast every player with a code that expires in about 24-hours.

I prefer the former, just so people don't complain "I didn't understand the time limit" stuff.

That's my preferred as well, more for the fact I'd be able to watch livestream than the code =P

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 12:39 PM
That's my preferred as well, more for the fact I'd be able to watch livestream than the code =P

Yeah, just live-stream some of the on-site tournaments, or do a preview of the next set.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Yeah, just live-stream some of the on-site tournaments, or do a preview of the next set.

For all we know, they planned on offering the live streams for free.

I'd rather they did that like lol so the community builds behind watching the "pros" rather than having to buy in for a card that most people probably won't really care about, and those that do can just buy it on ebay.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 12:47 PM
For all we know, they planned on offering the live streams for free.

I'd rather they did that like lol so the community builds behind watching the "pros" rather than having to buy in for a card that most people probably won't really care about, and those that do can just buy it on ebay.

...? Where did money come in?

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 12:52 PM
For all we know, they planned on offering the live streams for free.

I'd rather they did that like lol so the community builds behind watching the "pros" rather than having to buy in for a card that most people probably won't really care about, and those that do can just buy it on ebay.
Except the ones that do care potentially get shafted as they're at the mercy of the secondary market who are free to gouge away.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 12:56 PM
...? Where did money come in?

Oh, so now we're giving swag to people that do pay to go to the con, and travel across the country. And the same stuff to everyone who just logs in for free? That's pretty crappy to the people going to the convention.


Except the ones that do care potentially get shafted as they're at the mercy of the secondary market who are free to gouge away.

We're playing a TCG, the secondary market is king. All of your singles are going to come from it.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't even understand what you two are arguing about anymore.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:04 PM
I don't even understand what you two are arguing about anymore.

I say, give the merc that can't be used in pvp to people for going to the con. Give the sleeves that do not change gameplay to everyone going to the con. Do not give them any cards that can be used in tournaments. Let them sell them on ebay if they want, it will only sell for what people are willing to pay for it. I'd guess around $20 for a merc. There's no logical argument that can be made against it. Anything based on opportunity costs is willfully not taking into account that all of us are benefitting from this system already. We are getting exclusive mercs now for being in the right place at the right time, just like they will be. I wouldn't be surprised that many people are buying king or less tiers to resell after the kickstarter is over.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 01:06 PM
Give everyone who tunes into the livestream or attends the event any exclusive item with a potential gameplay effect.
Give AA cards, deck sleeves, play mats, whatever vanity items, temp buffs, nonexclusive cards, to people who go to the con.

Why is this so hard?

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:16 PM
Give everyone who tunes into the livestream or attends the event any exclusive item with a potential gameplay effect.
Give AA cards, deck sleeves, play mats, whatever vanity items, temp buffs, nonexclusive cards, to people who go to the con.

Why is this so hard?

Because it's ridiculous? Those of us that just tune in (which will be me) don't need to get mercs from the event. Keep them a little rare, make it special to have them, to have been there. I don't get why you feel like you're so entitled to every thing that might slightly alter the solo gameplay experience. It's ridiculous to me. How can you not feel that everyone should get the kickstarter exclusives after launch? The ideas are exactly the same. People not in the position to be here and part of this don't get a thing without paying for an account on the secondary market. People who can't be at the event don't get the things without paying for them either. It's the same situation.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 01:18 PM
I say, give the merc that can't be used in pvp to people for going to the con. Give the sleeves that do not change gameplay to everyone going to the con. Do not give them any cards that can be used in tournaments. Let them sell them on ebay if they want, it will only sell for what people are willing to pay for it. I'd guess around $20 for a merc. There's no logical argument that can be made against it. Anything based on opportunity costs is willfully not taking into account that all of us are benefitting from this system already. We are getting exclusive mercs now for being in the right place at the right time, just like they will be. I wouldn't be surprised that many people are buying king or less tiers to resell after the kickstarter is over.
I take offense to this. We've been making the logical argument for pages now.

The difference between the KS, and giving gameplay-affecting content away at only a physical location is that, once again, the KS is accessible all over the world. The physical location is only accessible to those within a certain distance, or those wealthy enough to travel to the location simply for a convention (which cuts off your average Hex player outside the US).

And you're guessing as to the demand of the merc. You have no idea what the merc would be, nor what they would charge for it. The secondary market would have the supply so they could dictate the price. Say the sellers decide they won't accept anything below $200 for it. You have no room to move. You can try and ask them to reduce the price, but they have all the say and no reprimand for not doing it. At least if Crypto sets the price, if they set it too high they'll get blasted by the community for price gouging, and it'll be bad for PR. The secondary market is *not* a valid solution to the problem.

The valid solution is to make it like the KS - available internationally via digital means. That's the logical argument right there. Hell, give it to convention goers for free and charge those who are getting it digitally some fee. But if you're going to release something that can affect gameplay, give people a realistic chance at getting it.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Because it's ridiculous? Those of us that just tune in (which will be me) don't need to get mercs from the event. Keep them a little rare, make it special to have them, to have been there. I don't get why you feel like you're so entitled to every thing that might slightly alter the solo gameplay experience. It's ridiculous to me. How can you not feel that everyone should get the kickstarter exclusives after launch? The ideas are exactly the same. People not in the position to be here and part of this don't get a thing without paying for an account on the secondary market. People who can't be at the event don't get the things without paying for them either. It's the same situation.
The ideas aren't the same. You're comparing "accessibility" with "being late to the party". There's a different with not being realistically able to obtain something due to geography, and not being aware of something because, I don't know, you didn't notice any news about it.

Let's say you've invested a lot in a product - you're a top shareholder. Hell, let's say you're a producer for something like Hex - that level of input. The company then says "to reward our shareholders, we're going to give them this nifty gold plated bottle opener; we'll be handing them out at our convention in Alaska". You, the large contributor, live in England. Would you not be miffed if you requested them make it accessible to you (ie. mail you out one) in honor of your contribution and dedication to the product, and they said "no"?

Then let's say that you're not a shareholder. You would've invested if you had known about it, but you didn't, and by the time you did they didn't need your investment. They then do the gold plated bottle opener dealio. They'd have every right to refuse giving you one. "Well, it's nice to know that you would have invested, but, well, you didn't".

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Because it's ridiculous? Those of us that just tune in (which will be me) don't need to get mercs from the event. Keep them a little rare, make it special to have them, to have been there

That's what the other promo stuff is for. I really don't care, because they seem to be hinting at dozens of mercenaries in the actual game.

Really, this argument is mostly caused by the fact that mercenaries are an account flag, rather than a tradable card. You can trade for any of the KS exclusive cards. The exclusive mercenaries not being tradable is a bit of an odd design choice.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:23 PM
I take offense to this. We've been making the logical argument for pages now.

The difference between the KS, and giving gameplay-affecting content away at only a physical location is that, once again, the KS is accessible all over the world. The physical location is only accessible to those within a certain distance, or those wealthy enough to travel to the location simply for a convention (which cuts off your average Hex player outside the US).

And you're guessing as to the demand of the merc. You have no idea what the merc would be, nor what they would charge for it. The secondary market would have the supply so they could dictate the price. Say the sellers decide they won't accept anything below $200 for it. You have no room to move. You can try and ask them to reduce the price, but they have all the say and no reprimand for not doing it. At least if Crypto sets the price, if they set it too high they'll get blasted by the community for price gouging, and it'll be bad for PR. The secondary market is *not* a valid solution to the problem.

The valid solution is to make it like the KS - available internationally via digital means. That's the logical argument right there. Hell, give it to convention goers for free and charge those who are getting it digitally some fee. But if you're going to release something that can affect gameplay, give people a realistic chance at getting it.

Ebay is also accessible all over the world.

These are huge events that arent only hex focused, cards with codes on them from events, even the rarest of them rarely go for more than 50 bucks. People will be selling them, and there will be lots of them. That's just how it's going to be. There's no question about it. Unless it's a reward for winning a tournament and there are only 5 of them. In which case they should be 200 a pop.

Hatts
06-01-2013, 01:24 PM
They should make it like contests / giveaways where you have to physically mail in a hand written letter with your information and a paragraph on why you want the mercenaries. Keeps it exclusive enough because no one will be bothered except the few that are obsessively hunting every mercenary.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 01:31 PM
Ebay is also accessible all over the world.

These are huge events that arent only hex focused, cards with codes on them from events, even the rarest of them rarely go for more than 50 bucks. People will be selling them, and there will be lots of them. That's just how it's going to be. There's no question about it. Unless it's a reward for winning a tournament and there are only 5 of them. In which case they should be 200 a pop.
Oh, tournament prizes are a different kettle of fish. You have to do more than just show up - you actually have to be a good player to get that kind of thing. I have no qualms with not being given access to those.

Really though, what's your objection to them offering it digitally? If you're ok with eBay, I just don't see what the issue with it coming from the source would be.

I think the source is a much better option, because it prevents ridiculous asking prices. Also, the money goes straight to Crypto, rather than someone who was fortunate enough to live close enough to the convention.

Finally, relying on eBay isn't Crypto making the content accessible. It's third parties making it accessible. Not quite the same thing. :-P

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:41 PM
Because Cory has said repeatedly, they will not sell anything other than boosters, and starter decks, and they aren't going to sell mercs to you, they're only for promo stuff. Them having value in a secondary market benefits everyone that plays the game, and legitimizes this hobby as the same kind of investment that magic can be. And giving it to everyone makes it just not special for people attending and you want to put as many things as possible to draw people to these events.

You want to try to attract anyone and everyone that can attend the event to it even if it's just for swag, because the more people looking at your game, and crowding around the more exciting it looks for the masses there for other reasons, the bigger the crowd the more people will be talking about it the more players join the game. It's just as much of an advertisement to attend a con as to get featured on a website.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 01:44 PM
You can give swag that has value. Just make it tradeable in game.

It's the issue that Mercs are untradable in-game that's causing both of your panties to twist.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:50 PM
You can give swag that has value. Just make it tradeable in game.

It's the issue that Mercs are untradable in-game that's causing both of your panties to twist.

The fact that mercs are account bound after the code is in just makes them more valuable, not less tradeable, you probably can't use the in game AH but that's okay. There are lots of options for selling your stuff online.

Though an idea occured to me, to make the merc code generate a merc card that you can activate to bind it to your account, the card could be tradeable on the AH in hex, until someone uses it. If that's the only concern anyone has. That would make everyone happy. Then it can just be worth how many ever plat on the AH that the physical cards go for on ebay anyway.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 01:52 PM
They don't have to explicitly sell the merc. They can 'sell' it, in the same way that they 'sell' it to people going to the convention - for a ticket. Only in this case, the ticket isn't for convention entry. Or perhaps it is, but you can redeem your ticket for the merc code without even attending. Or you can pay for a stream, and be given the code. In essence, there's a way to digitally get people that merc without "selling it", in the same vein as getting it to people physically "without selling it", even though they're buying a con ticket.

We might have to agree to disagree, but I'm pretty sure making things like this accessible for dedicated players would be good for the game. After all, one of the main perks of a purely-digital TCG is accessibility. Don't want to then go in the opposite direction and make content inaccessible when it doesn't have to be and doesn't have a good reason to be.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 01:52 PM
The fact that mercs are account bound after the code is in just makes them more valuable, not less tradeable, you probably can't use the in game AH but that's okay. There are lots of options for selling your stuff online.

Though an idea occured to me, to make the merc code generate a merc card that you can activate to bind it to your account, the card could be tradeable on the AH in hex, until someone uses it. If that's the only concern anyone has. That would make everyone happy. Then it can just be worth how many ever plat on the AH that the physical cards go for on ebay anyway.

It'll still be traded on E-bay because you can't do plat -> cash as easily as cash -> plat.

Unless you're redeeming it for yourself, in which case, it won't really matter.

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 01:59 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. I hope they stick with their current plans, though, and if another thread pops up or this one continues I'm going to still try to defend that position, simply because I think in my own opinion that it's good for the game, and this give everyone everything is not.

Boogaloo
06-01-2013, 02:35 PM
I think one or more PvP's in that paragraph should be a PvE or else I am not parsing it properly.

Yeah, meant to say most players will probably just enjoy the PvE content.

Indormi
06-01-2013, 03:08 PM
I like the idea of the livestream plus goodies, I also like the idea of haveing them on ths store for the same time the convention runs, like in LoL with riot singed, graves etc. Also they could give in addition for the people that show physically give them also a code that gives them some free boosters or even 1 primal booster. Now people have incentives to go physically if they can cause the reward is better and you only pay the ticket to get them, and people that like the merc or the alternate art or whatever can get them in the store for a limited time. Also there is still the secondary market for them after the event ends as it is made unavailable in the shop and the only way to get them after the event has ended is via code.

In other words, if you are playing hex during the time they are doing an event with rewards you can get them, paying a moderate amount. If you are not around then if you want you have to go to the secondary market and pay way much more

Patrigan
06-02-2013, 11:58 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. I hope they stick with their current plans, though, and if another thread pops up or this one continues I'm going to still try to defend that position, simply because I think in my own opinion that it's good for the game, and this give everyone everything is not.

Example:
It's several years after launch of Hex. I am new player x. Just a casual, might be interested in competitive later, but just casual now. I played WoW before, I LOVED collecting pets, btu I got sad every time I discovered some pet was elusive.
While looking into the game, I discover mercenaries, clearly made for collecting, since there are so many of them. I want to collect them. So I look at the list and I come across a Merc released at GenCon 2013. I'm looking where else to get it, nowhere. I go online and search for it, nothing (likely after several years). I post on the forums here, most people either used or lost their code.
It is impossible to collect said Mercenary. Remembering my feelings with the pets in WoW, I decide to not start/continue playing.

The sad part? Due to the really bad decision of setting this precedent with the kickstarter exclusives, this situation will already happen.

This game is not only about competitive players. This is a mistake CZE is making. They're used to WoWTCG, which is mostly about the competitive side. WoW online for a long time has been only about the PvE, tehre were whole websites dedicated to beating the PvE as quickly as possible. To doing crazy shit in PvE. PvE matters in online games. In LoL for me it is twice as fast to find players against bots than in PvP, this is not just because of needing only 5 players, but also because it seems pretty succesful (not as much as the PvP side, but still...)

Now before you start screaming that I should not feel entitled, let me make something perfectly clear. I am okay for CZE to make ALL exclusive mercenaries available on their web store, this is including the kickstarter mercenaries(!). Perhaps they can do this with a month delay or something, giving the exclusive right to have an early access to those who do make the effort. In my opinion, this works just as great. If you claim otherwise, your point about mercenaries not being important has no ground and it makes your own points invalid.

Yes, as an early adopter, I can (and will) buy every mercenary through ebay. I am honestly not concerned about myself, but about the feelings of many PvE players that we will lose due to exclusivity of something that actually CHANGES gameplay. Will we lose PvP players or existing players when these mercenaries are not made exclusive? I don't think so. Will there be an outrage if CZE, after the launch, makes the kickstarter mercenaries available? Perhaps a little, but I don't think it'll be huge, because quite a few people don't really care about mercenaries and those that do, will understand that it is for the better. Those that still make an outcry, now they are feeling entitled. They feel the kickstarter gives them the right to tell CZE what to do with the mercenaries (in that sense, many people are acting entitled in this thread).

So here's my proposition once more: Make it an "exclusive early access" approach and sell the mercenaries with a delay in the webshop alongside boosters (if necessary, do mercenary sales, where random mercenaries areput up for sale for a limited amount of time, soyou would just have to wait to get the mercenary you want). Please also do the same for kickstarter Mercenaries and Kickstarter exclusive PvE cards. It is NEVER fun to discover that something fun can't be gotten, due to a very limited availability (which will only get worse over time, since they are not tradable).

There is no real gain in limiting access, because marketing wise, you will turn away as many people with exclusives, as you would gain. Makign the access unlimited, you will likely only lose those that feel truely feel "entitled" and do we realy want those? Why not share the fun with everyone? Isn't that much better?

In any case, I felt I should make this case. I will likely not further respond, because some people in this thread (on both sides of the fence) are rather boneheaded, making it impossible anyway to have a decent conversation with them. Perhaps CZE should make a poll about this, that might settle things...

Rapkannibale
06-03-2013, 01:51 AM
Couldn't agree more with you Patrigan. Time limited exclusivity is a great option. Even if they had them available for a few weeks each year that would be OK in my opinion. It means they are still rare and elusive, but if you are dedicated enough you can still get these things even if you join the game years after the exclusive content was released. Making desirable content available only weekend and then never again, will make a few hundred people happy expense of thousands of others.

And please don't come with arguments that people taking this stance are entitled brats. I love rare and exclusive stuff. I just think that everyone should have the opportunity to get them, even years after, if they are dedicated enough. And yes, the precedent has been set with Kickstarter exclusives. As Patrigan I also wouldn't mind if these cards were made available later on, maybe only during specific times each year or something like that. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here. :)

Maybe its just me, but I have not played so many games because I found them "too late" and saw that there was so much content that simply wasn't available to me anymore, no matter how hard I would try.

Each side has there valid arguments. Just putting my opinion out there. :)

Ryoma_Echizen
06-03-2013, 02:10 AM
If they have these exclusive cards, there needs to be a way that people that don't live in those areas can get them. My suggestion would be to have tourneys run concurrently with live events that award those exclusive mercenaries as well. For example everyone that goes to Gencon gets the Gencon mercenary and everyone that participates in Constructed or Booster Draft Queues that week also gets the mercenary. Gencon goers get the mercenary for free while non attendees can get the mercenary if they put forth the effort.

Atomzed
06-03-2013, 06:24 AM
Kinda late to the argument thread, but just adding my 2cents worth.

I prefer Cory's idea of using merc as CZE creative outlet. And I agree that mercenaries should be tied to account. Reason is that if mercs are tradable we will see a market where ppl are selling fully leveled merc. That's not a good thing for the game, IMHO.

I think while both sides made valid points, the key reason for the difference is the TCG player vs Gamer mentality. TCG player belongs to a world where it is very difficult to collect everything, which includes ALL cards since the beginning of time. Using MTG as an example, a TCG player knows that it is very very difficult to get a playset of the cards from Alpha, Beta etc.... A TCG player new to the game would know that he can't collect everything.

In contrast, the gamer is brought up in a world where everything is possible to attain. Trophies, medals, rare loot.... And it doesn't matter whether the person plays the game on day 1 or play it 5 years later. He can still get the 100% completion rate if he wants to. So it's understandable that a gamer person find it difficult to accept that they can't get all the cards in a TCG.

And it looks like CZE is adopting the TCG world-mode. So those gamers with the mentality of getting everything will be in for a disappointment.

(interestingly a MMORPG as a game actually adopts a more TCG style in dealing with mounts and pets. I think partly they want people to feel that they have earned the exclusive pets.)

Hatts
06-03-2013, 07:45 AM
A wild Onion Knight appears! Hey Atomzed ;) Not too surprising that I agree with you 100% I hadn't thought of it as a tcg vs video gamer mentality but I think you hit the nail on the head.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 12:44 PM
I'm coming in from another thread (click the quote-link below if you like).


Hatts, thanks for the details.

... what was acceptable to be given out at events like gencon and Pax. Based on the feedback around the PvE card and t-shirts, they wouldn't give out any PvE cards that could be tradeable because people would go to the con just to get the PvE card and then resell them for more money. Since these cards would be exclusive, this is unfair for those who didn't live close to the con and had to buy them on the secondary market. This is apparently a big deal in LoL with skins, and causes much angst in the community with skins going for much more than the cost of admission to the con.
My question (to whoever this argument comes from) is how completely banning trade is more fair than allowing "overpriced" resale and trade. I argue that making them tradeable is actually more fair, not less. Sure, prices might be high but at least you can get the exclusive, whereas if you had to actually be there it would have cost you even more. For example, if it costs $50 to get into GenCon and $500 for my plane ticket, maybe I'd rather just pay $100 on the secondary market and not go to the conference. Is this not more "fair"?


if mercs are tradable we will see a market where ppl are selling fully leveled merc. That's not a good thing for the game...
Please explain why you think it's "not a good thing for the game". You might be right, but I need to hear a reason before I consider abandoning my (contrary) position.


A TCG player new to the game would know that he can't collect everything.
As a TCG gamer, I actually know the opposite: I can collect everything if I'm willing to put in the time and money necessary. Everything ever made for MTG can be purchased on the secondary market.

Shadowelf
07-03-2013, 02:06 PM
As a TCG gamer, I actually know the opposite: I can collect everything if I'm willing to put in the time and money necessary. Everything ever made for MTG can be purchased on the secondary market.

Totally agree with Yoss on this; i'm coming from a tcg background as well, and i'm a collector at heart, so i would like to be given the option to be able to obtain any exclusive reward i can lay my hands on or my wallet could afford.

Lafoote
07-03-2013, 02:07 PM
Gonna go back to the real intent of this thread, and not just argue with someone that seems upset people want cool stuff. Give the people that attend events some swag. Give em sleeves, give em cards, give em a merc, give em, Mushwocky underpants! Whatever!

Then, after the event, give those who did not attend an opportunity to earn stuff that changes gameplay. My suggestion would be, let the mercs or cards that people may want be obtained through a limited time achievement or checklist. You could put one or several things on the list, and they could be relevant to if its a PVE or PVP item. It could include items like:

Win 20 PVE games
Open 5 packs
Complete "the Junkyard"
Play x hours
Donate $5 to pediatric cancer hospital (link)

Many other suggestions are viable as well. Pretty much anything beats trusting to luck and the secondary market. Still, there is no guarantee they'll give out codes. They could link your ticket to your account.

While I can't speak for others, I can say, I would be genuinely disappointed if I was unable to procure a special merc or card at all. Disappointing your consumers is not especially good practice.

Hatts
07-03-2013, 02:43 PM
I'm going to quote myself a couple times from this thread since there is a lot to read through and this has come up again. My initial position:



I have no issues with exclusive cards for PvE, I think they should be a common occurrence ... Getting something exclusive is a great bonus and it's something people enjoy. The trick is to do it often enough so that everyone has chances at exclusive cards so that they aren't hurt at missing other ones.


and once it became clear that account bound Merc's were CZE's answer and they would not do tradeable PvE cards as exclusives:


They should make it like contests / giveaways where you have to physically mail in a hand written letter with your information and a paragraph on why you want the mercenaries. Keeps it exclusive enough because no one will be bothered except the few that are obsessively hunting every mercenary.

This is similar to LaFoote's recent post. I still think the answer to exclusive envy is to have lots of exclusives, make them tradeable, and if they become too desirable create something similar that is more easily obtained.

Gorgol
07-03-2013, 04:34 PM
put the mercs for a limited time in the booster chest thingies. Buy a booster during the time of whatever con and the included chest has a chance for the merc? can be extremely rare chance to balance it out.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 04:47 PM
But you might never get it, unless it's tradeable.

Malicus
07-04-2013, 10:07 PM
But you might never get it, unless it's tradeable.

It's a TCG not a TMG :).

I think certain things being time exclusive (regionally ie live events bothers me some in a digital game) is ok as long as cards aren't (trading makes them available forever).

If you weren't in on the KS why should you get a KS merc? If you didn't play in 2013 why should you get 2013 sleeves?

Yoss
07-04-2013, 10:46 PM
If you weren't in on the KS why should you get a KS merc? If you didn't play in 2013 why should you get 2013 sleeves?
In both cases you shouldn't because you weren't there, but someone who was there should be able to trade/give/sell to you. If I go to the store and buy something, it becomes my property. What right can the store owner possibly have to tell me what I can or cannot do with my property?

To partially re-quote something I posted elsewhere a few weeks back (and you can insert "trade" wherever you see "sell"):

If something (anything) is of more value to a buyer than it is to its owner, then it should be sold to the person who values it more. This is the fundamental tenet of utility maximization. I hope we all accept that people shouldn't be forced to sell and people shouldn't be forced to buy. Well the same logic that supports that (correct) position equally supports this one: people shouldn't be forced to hold things instead of selling, and people shouldn't be prohibited from buying.

From a buyer's perspective, mercs affect game play and so should be available to everyone (subject to supply and demand as collectibles). I don't care as much about sleeves because they do not affect game play, but the argument above still holds.

Malicus
07-04-2013, 11:07 PM
In both cases you shouldn't because you weren't there, but someone who was there should be able to trade/give/sell to you. If I go to the store and buy something, it becomes my property. What right can the store owner possibly have to tell me what I can or cannot do with my property?

To partially re-quote something I posted elsewhere a few weeks back (and you can insert "trade" wherever you see "sell"):


From a buyer's perspective, mercs affect game play and so should be available to everyone (subject to supply and demand as collectibles). I don't care as much about sleeves because they do not affect game play, but the argument above still holds.

Since you didn't buy it there is absolutely no inherent right to it, if I say you can use a certain chair every time you come into my cafe should you be able to sell that right? I certainly do not thinks so.

Even if someday you can buy a merc provided you are aware it is not transferable when you purchase you also have no right to be able to sell it.

I believe there are laws in most countries governing the sale of medals do you disagree with this? I understand the degree is quite different but you are arguing in absolute principles.

Crypto has decided not to make Merc tradeable and to be a specific reward for individuals, personally this increases their non-monetary value to me and making them tradeable does reduce that.

Sme things can be special, the things crypto sells can be traded.

Monarch
07-04-2013, 11:35 PM
Not intending to be too much of a prick here, but I'd just like to point out (again) that you have a Pro, two Collectors, and a King from the Kickstarter, all of which are awash with exclusives. There are people who missed the Kickstarter, but ARE capable of going to future GenCons, HexCons, whathaveyou.

Going to live events means getting swag. (Not that kind of swag, the older colloquialism of swag). The exclusives of the Kickstarter (and Kickstarter in general, honestly) are geared toward those who would rather be involved at a distance, not in the meat of the project. But live events are geared toward those who want to show up, meet the developers, play some rounds with them, and they also wanna walk away with their little unique snowflake badge too.

As someone who benefited so greatly from the first instance, I hope you can come around to seeing the sentiments of the second instance.

Yoss
07-04-2013, 11:56 PM
Deck sleeves and play mats are perfect for untradeable exclusives. Cards, mercs, equipment, and so on, are not.

Kroan
07-05-2013, 12:24 AM
Wasn't it already announced that in the case that there is any digital loot for the HexCon everyone who attends the HexCon digitally will get the same stuff? And that all kickstarter will be able to attend the first one digitally?

I'm pretty sure that's the best solution anyway. Hand out some physical stuff aswell for those who attend in person, like signed artbooks or whatever and we'll be all happy campers, right? right?

iscariotrex
07-05-2013, 01:01 AM
I have mixed feelings on this one, i.e. I can see it both ways. I'm a collector at heart and want to be able to have all the things. Part of being a collector though is actually not wanting my collection to be easy for everyone to obtain. Exclusivity is good for the value of items in a given subset and also adds to the fun of trying to track everything down. If everyone got mailed a playset of everything, it would no longer be desirable to someone with a collector's mindset.

Cory himself has said, at least on the PVE side of things, that he plans on making us make choices that earns us certain cards, but locks out others. He specifically said something to the effect of that no one will be able to have everything.

I personally am not that affluent, even though I am an American, and probably wouldn't be able to attend live events that often if at all. Heavens forbid that this game actually take off and they have live events all around the world meaning everyone who really wants to attend would be out travel expenses. Even if I could go to one event, I would miss many more... meaning I wouldn't pull in those sweet exclusives. If I did get to go to an event though, it would be nice to get something cool for my effort.

People need to get over themselves. This game does not, and will never, revolve around you. If other people get some neat stuff because they got to go to a place I couldn't go to, good on them. Maybe I'll be able to trade for said cool item; maybe I won't. Rest assured that none of the promos are going to break the game wide open or take away from your experience of the game. You shouldn't wish that other people be denied things simply because you can't have them... it's just selfish.

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 01:37 AM
Wasn't it already announced that in the case that there is any digital loot for the HexCon everyone who attends the HexCon digitally will get the same stuff? And that all kickstarter will be able to attend the first one digitally?

I'm pretty sure that's the best solution anyway. Hand out some physical stuff aswell for those who attend in person, like signed artbooks or whatever and we'll be all happy campers, right? right?

That includes only the first hexcon but no subsequent events; next hexcons and conventions, worlds, tourneys, player rewards systems (if implemented) etc will be excluded

Kroan
07-05-2013, 02:26 AM
That includes only the first hexcon but no subsequent events; next hexcons and conventions, worlds, tourneys, player rewards systems (if implemented) etc will be excluded
First off, what "includes only the first hexcon"? That players will be able to digitally attend or that all ks-backers have an invitation to attend it digital?

Second; I'm pretty sure you're assuming here, and not basing it on facts.

Hatts
07-05-2013, 03:15 AM
First off, what "includes only the first hexcon"? That players will be able to digitally attend or that all ks-backers have an invitation to attend it digital?

Second; I'm pretty sure you're assuming here, and not basing it on facts.

No, he's right, this had been communicated in the past.

All KS backers are invited to the first hexcon, those who don't go can get the digital swag.

For other conventions you need to go to get the swag. Part of the reward for fans who spend money to go to cons is the exclusive swag, it won't be different for hex.

Kroan
07-05-2013, 03:54 AM
No, he's right, this had been communicated in the past.

All KS backers are invited to the first hexcon, those who don't go can get the digital swag.

For other conventions you need to go to get the swag. Part of the reward for fans who spend money to go to cons is the exclusive swag, it won't be different for hex. I am aware of the first part. But I am not aware anything has been communicated about other exclusive digital items being handed out exclusively to physical visitors for any future events. Please give me a link to the article stating that :)

Hatts
07-05-2013, 04:25 AM
I am aware of the first part. But I am not aware anything has been communicated about other exclusive digital items being handed out exclusively to physical visitors for any future events. Please give me a link to the article stating that :)
Geek all star podcast.

Banarok
07-05-2013, 04:26 AM
Personally i'm against anything digital on a physical event i think one of the selling points of a digital TCG is that it's avalible everywhere without plaing favourites on locations.

when i where invested in WoW i hated the fact blizzcon was in the states simply because i wasen't able to travel there on a whim, and the feeling of being left out is never nice.

i think physical goods should be avalible on a physical location, having them all can show how hardcore a HEX-fan you are, you get alot out of a convetion except swag, i mean you get to meet lots of other people with same interesst, haveing fun discussing builds with like minded, meeting the developers, sneak peeks. if you go to the convetion because of the swag either you or the event holder is doing something wrong since coventions are usually ment to bring people together not work as a marketplace. atleast that is my impression.

i think digital exclusives are tottaly fine if they are obtainable digitally, preferable should everything exclusive be tradeable so that they are obtaianle down the line.

ramseytheory
07-05-2013, 04:39 AM
If they hold conventions worldwide, so that everyone can get to at least some of them, then I'm OK with exclusive stuff for live events. I think we all know that's not going to happen for the first few years for cost reasons, though, so non-trivial exclusive stuff would pretty much just be favouring the American player base at the expense of everyone else.

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 04:43 AM
I am aware of the first part. But I am not aware anything has been communicated about other exclusive digital items being handed out exclusively to physical visitors for any future events. Please give me a link to the article stating that :)

Even if there weren't any official info on that, it can be easily assumed since the only reason we are getting hexcon stuff is because it was unlocked via KS; that and the community's uproar which led them to reconsider.


Geek all star podcast.

Thanks; knew it was stated somewhere from an official source, couldn't remember where though; info is thinly spread out and its a headache to track it :)

ossuary
07-05-2013, 04:55 AM
I've been thinking about this whole thing a lot over the past 100 or so posts, and honestly I've been waffling on it a fair bit, too. The collector in me cringes at the idea of missing out on something, especially since I don't have the kind of lifestyle where I can travel to conventions or gatherings easily... meaning I know I would miss out on stuff. But at the same time, I recognize that people who CAN make those kinds of trips deserve some booty (not that kind, you sickos) for making the effort and being a part of the in-person community.

Ultimately, I've come to this conclusion: there are two types of exclusive content. Even in the normal, physical world, there are two types of exclusive. If I go to a comic book convention and get a T-shirt signed by the artist of my favorite comic, I can sell that to somebody else. It has intrinsic value to ALL fans. But if I go to a convention and get a picture of myself standing with Cory (preferably in his princess outfit... rowr), that picture is COOL to other fans, but only VALUABLE to me. I received an item of limited physical value, but deep personal value, that cannot be transferred to someone else. And that's fine!

Now, I recognize that when you talk about rewards that function in the game and could potentially change the gameplay experience, the value equation changes somewhat. But the principle is still the same... some "exclusive" items will be transferable to other players (cards, equipment), and others (merc, sleeves) will not. As long as any exclusive non-transferable items are not gamebreaking or are limited to PvE only, I think I've made peace with it. For those who are able and willing to make the extra effort, there SHOULD be a payoff.

Flame on! ;)

Kroan
07-05-2013, 05:07 AM
Even if there weren't any official info on that, it can be easily assumed since the only reason we are getting hexcon stuff is because it was unlocked via KS; that and the community's uproar which led them to reconsider. Of course, but that doesn't exclude the (very real) possibility that they will let you buy an e-ticket. After all this is an all digital game, so it's something to be expected. An e-ticket will then obviously include digital items. Seeing as they worked so much with Blizzard and WoW, my assumption is that they will do kinda the same thing as Blizzard does with their Blizzcon digital items.


Geek all star podcast. I looked up the podcast, listened to it. There is nothing at all in there that says anything like what you are posting here as facts. Maybe I didn't listen good enough, so please indicate a time and which quote you're referring to.

Also, from what I gather, the podcast was made even before the announcement of HexCon, making it even more unlikely that anything was said about digital rewards at those events in the future.

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 05:20 AM
Now, I recognize that when you talk about rewards that function in the game and could potentially change the gameplay experience, the value equation changes somewhat. But the principle is still the same... some "exclusive" items will be transferable to other players (cards, equipment), and others (merc, sleeves) will not. As long as any exclusive non-transferable items are not gamebreaking or are limited to PvE only, I think I've made peace with it. For those who are able and willing to make the extra effort, there SHOULD be a payoff.
Flame on! ;)

Although i hate to admit it i think you are right; ppl that attend the events have to be rewarded somehow. The collector in my heart objects, but the thinker approves. Let's hope that all the stuff those ppl will be getting will be tradeable at least, so I and others can get a shot at


Of course, but that doesn't exclude the (very real) possibility that they will let you buy an e-ticket. After all this is an all digital game, so it's something to be expected. An e-ticket will then obviously include digital items. Seeing as they worked so much with Blizzard and WoW, my assumption is that they will do kinda the same thing as Blizzard does with their Blizzcon digital items.


Digital e-ticket sounds awesome, but might not be the best idea; see above response for reasons. In addition who would be physically attending events if this is the case ? Even if the ticket covers the Gencon ticket in price, there will still be travel tickets, hotels etc..

Kroan
07-05-2013, 05:33 AM
Digital e-ticket sounds awesome, but might not be the best idea; see above response for reasons. In addition who would be physically attending events if this is the case ? Even if the ticket covers the Gencon ticket in price, there will still be travel tickets, hotels etc.. Being somewhere live, seeing the best players play at tournaments and cheering them on from the sidelines, be able to talk to devs and play maybe with new set would all be exclusive for visitors obviously. The e-ticket would beasically buy a ticket to watch the live coverage and get some digital rewards. Physical visitors usually get some extra physical stuff like artbook, merchandise or other stuff.

(Also i can't find "the reasons above" :P :) )

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 05:51 AM
(Also i can't find "the reasons above" :P :) )

Yeah lol been posting in a hurry as i had to leave for work and the reasons aren't quite clear; other of course than the fact that physical attendants have to be rewarded more, which i went and explained in detail at your part of my response.

Kroan
07-05-2013, 05:55 AM
I obviously agree that attending physically should net you some cool stuff above people who attend digitally. I think that can be done with merchandise and stuff. I found that Blizzard always did that in a very good and customer friendly way to be honest :)

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 06:11 AM
I obviously agree that attending physically should net you some cool stuff above people who attend digitally. I think that can be done with merchandise and stuff. I found that Blizzard always did that in a very good and customer friendly way to be honest :)

You know i would love if they implemented a system like the one you are describing; those buy an e-ticket will get whatever digital rewards, while those who attend will be given stuff like keychains, autographs, cups, posters etc (along with digital rewards of course)

MoikPEI
07-05-2013, 06:31 AM
I had put Diablo 3 into my personal 'do not buy' bucket due to all the pre-launch exclusives they were posting for banners and achievements (I bought in for the RMAH, turned it into a free game). I hate any content locks based on arbitrary time or region factors*. If Kickstarter exclusives not been AH tradeable, I wouldn't have bought in on Hex. One of the most frustrating things about my League of Legends experience is that I can never have the only good Rammus skin, since it was a beta reward. I can't grind it out or win it in a tournament. I didn't know of the game, so I didn't have the opportunity to get it.

To me, exclusives like that are denials of opportunity. How I see it, all exclusives do is stratify, and probably create more resentment to the product than togetherness within the community. I feel a game succeeds in spite of them rather than because of them. If they're tradeable, and anyone who wants it can get it for a price, I'm okay with it. So, like, event exclusive account flags or something; I'd be done with Hex.

Even in-game one-time events (ex, the Karka Invasion and what not in Guild Wars 2) kind of annoy me by forcing my investment of play. I would rather have persistent crude events than brief polished events. I may not get to enjoy the latter, but I can maybe find something in the former. I dislike when a service provider starts choosing to restrict what I can get out of their offerings. It's breach of trust, albeit trivial.

* Yes, even if it's Christmas content only being available at Christmas. Most cases that junk just goes on the AH at a discount.

Pech
07-05-2013, 06:40 AM
I think giving away exclusives is perfectly fine. They will always be available to you even if you can't attend said "live event". People will sell/trade them away you just have to decide if your willing to buy/trade for it. It offers another stream toward the collectibles part of of TCGs which I am perfectly ok with.

hex_colin
07-05-2013, 06:53 AM
I think giving away exclusives is perfectly fine. They will always be available to you even if you can't attend said "live event". People will sell/trade them away you just have to decide if your willing to buy/trade for it. It offers another stream toward the collectibles part of of TCGs which I am perfectly ok with.

Given the "groundbreaking digital MMO/TCG" spin, I'd like there to be a way to get the "live event" exclusives even if you can't physically be there. However, you should only be able to get it by doing something in the game (entering a draft, completing some PVE content) at the same time as the live event - once the event is over, the availability of the exclusive in the digital realm is too. That way everyone is on an even footing - they had exactly the same time available (whether "attending" in person or virtually).

ossuary
07-05-2013, 06:58 AM
Given the "groundbreaking digital MMO/TCG" spin, I'd like there to be a way to get the "live event" exclusives even if you can't physically be there. However, you should only be able to get it by doing something in the game (entering a draft, completing some PVE content) at the same time as the live event - once the event is over, the availability of the exclusive in the digital realm is too. That way everyone is on an even footing - they had exactly the same time available (whether "attending" in person or virtually).

I like this idea. There should be SOME kind of way to get at least some of the Con exclusives remotely (the non-physical ones, anyway ... that picture of me and Cory in his princess outfit is still going to be one-of-a-kind). :)

firedancer27
07-05-2013, 07:14 AM
I am not bothered at all by exclusive content that can only be obtained under certain circumstances. In my case I know I will never collect every single piece of content in the game anyway. I'm more interested in CZE bringing in new fans and making this game last for the years to come. They have already done way more than enough for me through this kickstarter so in my opinion...keep on providing cool and exciting content to bring somebody into the game. I've read that people are worried about content that could have an impact on the game....from the looks of the game so far I would think there isn't going to be any one card that changes everything...and if it does the game designers would make tweaks to change that fact. During a game if I am playing with someone that has one of these cards I would see it as a cool conversation piece..."oh awesome! Were you at such and such convention to get that?" I wouldn't have the feeling of being cheated by not being able to get that same piece of content. However as I said...this is all based on me being fine with the concept that I won't own everything for every set. For those people that MUST have access to everything I could see why they would be disappointed at not having the oppurtunity.

Kroan
07-05-2013, 07:29 AM
It basically boils down what your favourite part about a tcg is. For me one of the most fun part is the collecting-part. (That's why I hope that CZE also implements some kind of showcase of your favourite cards when people click your profile and a also a nice userinterface to see which cards you're still missing and achievements for completing collection)

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 08:48 AM
It basically boils down what your favourite part about a tcg is. For me one of the most fun part is the collecting-part. (That's why I hope that CZE also implements some kind of showcase of your favourite cards when people click your profile and a also a nice userinterface to see which cards you're still missing and achievements for completing collection)

Same here, i'm a collector at heart and i hate to be missing exclusive stuff, or not having a chance to obtain them either via trade or sale. Card albums, forum profiles and achievements all sound awesome to me

Yoss
07-05-2013, 09:36 AM
I have mixed feelings on this one, i.e. I can see it both ways. I'm a collector at heart and want to be able to have all the things. Part of being a collector though is actually not wanting my collection to be easy for everyone to obtain. Exclusivity is good for the value of items in a given subset and also adds to the fun of trying to track everything down.
It is only good for value if you are free to trade.


Cory himself has said, at least on the PVE side of things, that he plans on making us make choices that earns us certain cards, but locks out others. He specifically said something to the effect of that no one will be able to have everything.
Not being able to have everything due to external limitations (things not imposed by the game, like how much money you have) is quite different than not being able to have everything due to internal limitations on free trade. The former is fine, the latter is not.


If I did get to go to an event though, it would be nice to get something cool for my effort.
I totally agree, and the cool things you get should be tradeable.


Rest assured that none of the promos are going to break the game wide open
I think the opposite is more likely. A promo that affects gameplay can and in some cases will become a staple of certain top tier strategies unless the designers intentionally make the promos all utter crap in terms of game utility. But if they do that then they'd be better off just making an alternate art version of something that already exists.


i think digital exclusives are tottaly fine if they are obtainable digitally, preferable should everything exclusive be tradeable so that they are obtaianle down the line.
Yep.


Now, I recognize that when you talk about rewards that function in the game and could potentially change the gameplay experience, the value equation changes somewhat. But the principle is still the same... some "exclusive" items will be transferable to other players (cards, equipment), and others (merc, sleeves) will not. As long as any exclusive non-transferable items are not gamebreaking or are limited to PvE only, I think I've made peace with it. For those who are able and willing to make the extra effort, there SHOULD be a payoff.
Good post, and I agree with most of it. I have some additions/tweaks.

1) Your stipulation that exclusive non-transferrable items not be "gamebreaking" is very important, but it is going to be very difficult to uphold. It is only achieveable if all the mercs are intentionally underpowered to the point that no high end competitive deck would use them, but that of course ruins the entire point of creating and owning them in the first place. If they're going to be gameplay irrelevant, then they should just be published as artwork (like the sleeves are). If they're going to be gameplay relevant, then nearly by definition they run a very high risk of occasionally showing up in at top tier PVE deck, and that's a bad thing (see the competitive PVE thread for more on this discussion). Because of this, the only reasonable way out is to make all gameplay-affecting things tradeable.

1a) The whole premise of blocking free trade is destructive in most of its uses. See my quote in post 151 (link).

2) I must ask, why do so many people seem to be treating the PVE (MMO) side of the game like it's the bastard step-son with a limp? Can Hex not be fully MMO and fully TCG? It was sold to us as a TCGMMO not a TCGMMO.

@Moki, post 172: Well said.


I think giving away exclusives is perfectly fine. They will always be available to you even if you can't attend said "live event". People will sell/trade them away you just have to decide if your willing to buy/trade for it. It offers another stream toward the collectibles part of of TCGs which I am perfectly ok with.
Unfortunately, they will not "always be available to you" because CZE's current intent is to prevent trade. If they allow trade, then I'm totally cool with exclusive content.

Gwaer
07-05-2013, 11:49 AM
Any swag they give away at a convention will be in the form of a card where you enter in the code, those cards go up on ebay constantly for other games, they can give away whatever they like, I'd even be okay with pve cards. I mean heck, I have pve cards no one else can get outside of trade from the KS? How could I possibly say no one else is ever allowed to get different exclusive pve cards in another venue?

Yoss
07-05-2013, 11:53 AM
Any swag they give away at a convention will be in the form of a card where you enter in the code, those cards go up on ebay constantly for other games, they can give away whatever they like, I'd even be okay with pve cards. I mean heck, I have pve cards no one else can get outside of trade from the KS? How could I possibly say no one else is ever allowed to get different exclusive pve cards in another venue?
As long as it's tradeable, sounds fine to me.

Gwaer
07-05-2013, 11:55 AM
As long as it's tradeable, sounds fine to me.
Everything at a con will be tradeable. Even if it's not tradeable in game, just trade the code on ebay instead of sticking it to your account. That even makes mercs and such tradeable. Just only redeemable once.

Yoss
07-05-2013, 12:07 PM
Mercs are not planned to be trade-able (yet).

Gwaer
07-05-2013, 12:10 PM
...you're missing the point I think. Even if they aren't tradeable in game, (which I fully support them not being) Any mercs that are passed out at a con will be on a card, that has a code you have to scratch off. Just trade the card. Voila, you can buy the exclusive not tradable merc on a card on ebay, then attach it to your account.

Yoss
07-05-2013, 12:20 PM
...you're missing the point I think. Even if they aren't tradeable in game, (which I fully support them not being) Any mercs that are passed out at a con will be on a card, that has a code you have to scratch off. Just trade the card. Voila, you can buy the exclusive not tradable merc on a card on ebay, then attach it to your account.
I understood perfectly, though you're right if you're thinking that my view is slightly different than yours. The problem is, once the redemption code is used, regardless of how many times it changes hands before activation, it's gone forever. So, just like the KS mercs, they will not be legitimately available to future users at any price.

So like I said before, mercs need to be tradeable in-game. Anything non-tradeable should be zero game-mechanic impact. Not minimal impact, zero.

Gwaer
07-05-2013, 12:26 PM
PVE mercs are going to be available that you don't have access to. That's already happening. There's not really any point debating it. I was just offering a method for you to get mercs from cons you didn't attend. The thread is about exclusives from physical events. Those will be available for at least a limited time online if you care to buy them. Mercs don't need to be tradeable in-game, you unlock them for achieving certain goals in the pve campaign. They should give out wacky mercs that are op in some instances that not everyone can get. It'll drive interest in going to events, or achieving certain goals within the game. You have your KS only mercs, other people will have their i won a tournament mercs, and other people will have the i attended an event mercs. Some people might even have the I'm a family member of someone who works at cryptozoic mercs. We should probably just get used to the idea now.

MoikPEI
07-05-2013, 12:26 PM
Anything non-tradeable should be zero game-mechanic impact. Not minimal impact, zero.

This feels like it's complex and important enough to warrant a separate conversation. Like, Raid Leader and what not are non-tradeable features with tangible game impact. I don't know if it's technically feasible for them to be tradeable, and if they do become tradeable, should there be a high cost for trading them?

Like, a deep dive into balancing 'tradeability' seems like it could turn into a Hot Topic.

Yoss
07-05-2013, 12:35 PM
PVE mercs are going to be available that you don't have access to. That's already happening. There's not really any point debating it. I was just offering a method for you to get mercs from cons you didn't attend. The thread is about exclusives from physical events. Those will be available for at least a limited time online if you care to buy them. Mercs don't need to be tradeable in-game, you unlock them for achieving certain goals in the pve campaign. They should give out wacky mercs that are op in some instances that not everyone can get. It'll drive interest in going to events, or achieving certain goals within the game. You have your KS only mercs, other people will have their i won a tournament mercs, and other people will have the i attended an event mercs. Some people might even have the I'm a family member of someone who works at cryptozoic mercs. We should probably just get used to the idea now.
I'm going to respond to this in the competitive PVE thread since that's where this discussion is headed.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25983

Yoss
07-05-2013, 12:37 PM
This feels like it's complex and important enough to warrant a separate conversation. Like, Raid Leader and what not are non-tradeable features with tangible game impact. I don't know if it's technically feasible for them to be tradeable, and if they do become tradeable, should there be a high cost for trading them?

Like, a deep dive into balancing 'tradeability' seems like it could turn into a Hot Topic.
It already is. :) Click through my sig and you'll find it. There's also a thread called "Make EVERYTHING Tradeable" floating around somewhere.

EDIT:
Here's the link to the Everything Tradeable thread.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25694

EntropyBall
07-05-2013, 12:44 PM
There is already exclusive content in this game, the KS rewards mentioned in the OP. They are just as exclusive as a GenCon card, since you are already unable to ever get them again except by trading.

I'm sorry to all those people that feel like they need to have every card, but its silly for CZE to not promote their events with PVE/alternate art cards (as they did with KS) just because a few people want the *option* of theoretically collecting every card. Since this game is constantly compared to MTG, I'll point out that it would be extremely difficult to collect every MTG card. Getting every card in Hex, even with GenCon-like exclusives, will be easier.

I will personally never go to a convention to get these cards, but if you watch Cory's interviews about it, its clear that he has a passion for providing these kinds of events and rewards to players, and I'm glad that they do, even if I won't partake in it.

Yoss
07-05-2013, 12:56 PM
There is already exclusive content in this game, the KS rewards mentioned in the OP. They are just as exclusive as a GenCon card, since you are already unable to ever get them again except by trading.

I'm sorry to all those people that feel like they need to have every card, but its silly for CZE to not promote their events with PVE/alternate art cards (as they did with KS) just because a few people want the *option* of theoretically collecting every card. Since this game is constantly compared to MTG, I'll point out that it would be extremely difficult to collect every MTG card. Getting every card in Hex, even with GenCon-like exclusives, will be easier.

I will personally never go to a convention to get these cards, but if you watch Cory's interviews about it, its clear that he has a passion for providing these kinds of events and rewards to players, and I'm glad that they do, even if I won't partake in it.
If the stuff is all tradeable on the AH, then I agree with everything you said here.

ossuary
07-05-2013, 02:29 PM
I really don't think it's going to happen, Yoss. I think you're going to have to abandon that particular torch. Some things will be tradeable, others won't. The end. :)

Stok3d
07-05-2013, 02:33 PM
There are 20x pages that I haven't read through and I'm confident this has been said.

Solution easy if they follow Blizzard's lead with recent Blizzcons. Allow for a stream which also provides the ingame swag.

Hatts
07-05-2013, 02:42 PM
Since this has come up again I thought I would transcribe the relevant sections of the geek allstar podcast. Cory talks real fast, so it may not be exact.


...The unintended consequences of any decision is a really interesting thing I am discovering. because I'll say 'wouldn't it be real cool if we do something like this?' but others will say 'did you think of these people or those people and what their reaction would be?' and I'm like 'no, not really, I just thought it was awesome' and so I'm kinda learning that I need to be real careful with that. We did a poll about the shirt to get a free card...

Much time passes, they get back on topic around the 55 minute mark, when the interviewer asks question about getting things in Hex from packs of their existing games like WoWTCG:

No, we won't be doing that. As I saw with the poll on the t-shirts, I don't want to do something that forces people to feel like they have to go buy stuff outside of the game to get stuff inside the game, that clearly was met with some negativity. Uh it's bums me out because. I can't answer that, that's a hard question, because one of thing we talked about is for instance things that aren't tradeable, things that are more collectable like sleeves or the mercenaries as an example like at conventions doing mercenaries that you get as a scratch off coded thing at that convention like at a pax or a gencon, and we were giving away some wacky mercenary, again not something that is tradeable in game it's just stuff that you have to unlock or get through some promotion.

Interviewer: or just cosmetic?

Cory: Yeah or cosmetic, although for the mercenaries I'm excited by the idea of them being specific and unique. I think there is going to have to be some space for me to carve out where I can do stuff like that. I like it a lot. I think when it comes to cards that's the place where we aren't going to do something to disenfranchise the player that wants to collect all the cards. I think when it comes to sleeves and mercenaries, the little bells and whistle things, it will be a bit broader in terms of how we use those, as promotions or cool rewards, and I think that stuff's fun. I do. Clearly there is a little bit of a cost, people might not like that totally but it's super cool and something I am super passionate about.

Interviewer: I think that there will be plenty of room for that in PvE , where all the crazy stuff is?

Cory: But even that PvE centric card, that wacky Chest o Hex, people felt that they needed it to complete their collection. I think I have to rope off a little room where it's like you know what, you're never going to have all of this stuff, and so being able to use that space to do some fun, wacky, cool stuff is still available, because I think it's fun. But the mercenaries, they are these really specific build around weird wacky things and I think it would be unlikely that everyone will be collecting all of these anyway because of how varied the ways that you're going to get them is going to be.


Listening to it again, these questions were the ones that Cory was most uncomfortable with, I get the feeling that he would have liked to do exclusive PvE cards as promos and have them tradeable but he was listening to the feedback on the poll about the exclusive t-shirt card.

Icepick
07-05-2013, 02:46 PM
They've confirmed that there's going to be alternate art cards at GenCon. http://hextcg.com/hex-at-gen-con/
Kind of a bummer, because I much prefer that AA Ozaza card to the default art.

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 02:55 PM
Well at least we got the answer we were looking for, aren't we ? There will be most probably no way to obtain all the mercs and sleeves, except if u are willing to travel all around the world following cze's conventions. Since the latest info on their tradeability still remains that they will be not tradeable, that concludes the issue i think. At least the AA cards will be tradeable, which is a comfort :(

Yoss
07-05-2013, 04:01 PM
I really don't think it's going to happen, Yoss. I think you're going to have to abandon that particular torch. Some things will be tradeable, others won't. The end. :)
If they implement the proposal from the competitive PVE thread (link) that disables account-bound stuff during competitions, then my primary care about in this area will vanish. I'll still favor free trade of everything, but at that point it will just be my preference for free markets and avoiding black market incentives.

However, just because I'd be happy doesn't mean that the collectors out there would be. I'm worried more about game balance and less about collecting every possible thing.

BohemianStalker
07-05-2013, 04:15 PM
Well at least we got the answer we were looking for, aren't we ? There will be most probably no way to obtain all the mercs and sleeves, except if u are willing to travel all around the world following cze's conventions. Since the latest info on their tradeability still remains that they will be not tradeable, that concludes the issue i think. At least the AA cards will be tradeable, which is a comfort :(

didnt they say earlier kickstarters will obtain everything too?

HEX Con Digital Items For All

Hi HEXers. Double update today!

We've taken in a lot of your feedback. Should we reach the next stretch goal and HEX Con happens, all convention promotional cards, sleeves, mercenaries and the like will be deposited into each Kickstarter backer's HEX account. We want to assure you that everybody will be able to gear-up and sleeve all the goodies from this campaign whether or not they will be able to attend. So, should we hit the 2.5 million dollar Stretch Goal, you'll be receiving a lovely care package courtesy of your friends here at Cryptozoic with lots of goodies.

you people have such fragile memory...

hex_colin
07-05-2013, 04:27 PM
Well at least we got the answer we were looking for, aren't we ? There will be most probably no way to obtain all the mercs and sleeves, except if u are willing to travel all around the world following cze's conventions. Since the latest info on their tradeability still remains that they will be not tradeable, that concludes the issue i think. At least the AA cards will be tradeable, which is a comfort :(

I'm taking that as a personal challenge! I already travel 300,000+ miles a year for work... How bad can adding a few extra Cons bet? ;)

hex_colin
07-05-2013, 04:28 PM
didnt they say earlier kickstarters will obtain everything too?

HEX Con Digital Items For All

Hi HEXers. Double update today!

We've taken in a lot of your feedback. Should we reach the next stretch goal and HEX Con happens, all convention promotional cards, sleeves, mercenaries and the like will be deposited into each Kickstarter backer's HEX account. We want to assure you that everybody will be able to gear-up and sleeve all the goodies from this campaign whether or not they will be able to attend. So, should we hit the 2.5 million dollar Stretch Goal, you'll be receiving a lovely care package courtesy of your friends here at Cryptozoic with lots of goodies.

you people have such fragile memory...

GenCon =/= HEXCon :(

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 04:29 PM
I'm taking that as a personal challenge! I already travel 300,000+ miles a year for work... How bad can adding a few extra Cons bet? ;)
Good luck to you on your epic quest =)

Cory_Jones
07-05-2013, 04:31 PM
I thought maybe I should chime in and give you the scoop on how these work:

Promo AA Cards: Tradable in game, like any other card
Sleeves: not tradable (if you have a sleeve you earned it not bought it)
Promo Mercenaries: Tradable outside game (they will come on a cool oversized card with a scratch off code)

So there it is, I thought it was a reasonable way to handle event promos, it’s something I am passionate about. Cryptozoic live events are an important part of what we do (and I personally love them), I really want to have something exciting at these events. Maybe I’m spoiled by WOW loot cards but the energy that fun desirable promos create is amazing and important.

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 04:34 PM
you people have such fragile memory...

:p


I'm taking that as a personal challenge! I already travel 300,000+ miles a year for work... How bad can adding a few extra Cons bet? ;)

Care to be buying extra wristbands ? ::cool:

Kroan
07-05-2013, 04:36 PM
I thought maybe I should chime in and give you the scoop on how these work:

Promo AA Cards: Tradable in game, like any other card
Sleeves: not tradable (if you have a sleeve you earned it not bought it)
Promo Mercenaries: Tradable outside game (they will come on a cool oversized card with a scratch off code)

So there it is, I thought it was a reasonable way to handle event promos, it’s something I am passionate about. Cryptozoic live events are an important part of what we do (and I personally love them), I really want to have something exciting at these events. Maybe I’m spoiled by WOW loot cards but the energy that fun desirable promos create is amazing and important.
Soooo... what is the chance of us europeans ever being able to get any promo's for an event?

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 04:38 PM
Soooo... what is the chance of us europeans ever being able to get any promo's for an event?
currently the only things unacquireable at all for you would be the sleeves. You can trade ingame for the AA if people put them up and you can trade out of game for the mercs if people sell them. So same as everyone else who can't make an event :)

Xenavire
07-05-2013, 04:39 PM
Will those AA cards be given away at more than one con, and will players outside of US have a chance to compete and win those cards at other events?

You have a lot of EU fans (not to mention all the other countries like Australia), and while we know you are doing what you can to make things equal, there seems to be a lot of things we might be left out of, which sucks. I would love those AA cards, but I would be just as happy to get a chance to compete live at an event.

While on the topic, do you have any plans to attend any EU events (Gamescon is a good example) or any other countries (I can think of the armageddon expo in New Zealand as another example.) I would be really excited if CZE could attend global events, it might mean I could attend one. I am sure I am not the only one thinking the same thing.

Kroan
07-05-2013, 04:40 PM
currently the only things unacquireable at all for you would be the sleeves. You can trade ingame for the AA if people put them up and you can trade out of game for the mercs if people sell them. So same as everyone else who can't make an event :) That's not my question obviously. My question is, if cryptozoic is passionate about handing out promo's, will there be any chance to get a promo in europe at any event. The biggest videogame trade fair on the world is coming up shortly (Gamescon in Cologne), so I wonder if we will see Cryptozoic attending there aswell.

Xenavire
07-05-2013, 04:41 PM
That's not my question obviously. My question is, if cryptozoic is passionate about handing out promo's, will there be any chance to get a promo in europe at any event.

Exactly my thoughts. Just having an event would be nice haha.

Cory_Jones
07-05-2013, 04:48 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish

Matenshi
07-05-2013, 04:48 PM
I thought maybe I should chime in and give you the scoop on how these work:

Promo AA Cards: Tradable in game, like any other card
Sleeves: not tradable (if you have a sleeve you earned it not bought it)
Promo Mercenaries: Tradable outside game (they will come on a cool oversized card with a scratch off code)

So there it is, I thought it was a reasonable way to handle event promos, itís something I am passionate about. Cryptozoic live events are an important part of what we do (and I personally love them), I really want to have something exciting at these events. Maybe Iím spoiled by WOW loot cards but the energy that fun desirable promos create is amazing and important.

I'm fine with stuff like sleeves and alternate art cards -- they're completely aesthetic, and you can trade the AA cards in-game -- but something like mercenaries should not be convention-exclusive. Mercenaries have an actual impact on gameplay and being forced to buy them for likely ridiculous amounts of money just because you can't go to a physical convention for a game that touts its digital-only aspect and accessibility is pretty crappy.

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 04:51 PM
I'm fine with stuff like sleeves and alternate art cards -- they're completely aesthetic, and you can trade the AA cards in-game -- but something like mercenaries should not be convention-exclusive. Mercenaries have an actual impact on gameplay and being forced to buy them for likely ridiculous amounts of money just because you can't go to a physical convention for a game that touts its digital-only aspect and accessibility is pretty crappy.

Don't be so selfish. Need to look at it from his POV. He's even stated there will be so many mercenaries it will be impossible/ near impossible to have them all so one here and there for people who actually attend con's is nothing. Plus it helps promote the game.

Avignon
07-05-2013, 04:52 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish

Great news, be sure to add PAX Australia to the list! :)

Yoss
07-05-2013, 04:53 PM
Always great to hear from you, Cory! Thanks.

Xenavire
07-05-2013, 04:54 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish

Thats good enough for me. I would have been super excited to see Hex at Gamescon (the biggest europe event) but if it isn't possible this year, I can wait it out. Gives me a chance to train up in all things Hex.

BohemianStalker
07-05-2013, 05:00 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish

as I am studying in Prague I would love some hex events here haha, it is trully Cardium Europa, close to everyone and cheap too, please think about it! :D

Kroan
07-05-2013, 05:01 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish
Thanks Cory, very excited to hear the announcement :)

Shadowelf
07-05-2013, 05:03 PM
We are a global company (we just had WOW TCG EUCC in Prague this weekend) and I am sure we will have a presence at upcoming events around the world, maybe not this year (we are pretty focused on HEX) but next year is very likely, plus we are putting some big plans in place for support of EU and the rest of world, we should have something to announce soonish

Great news...bring a lot of mercenaries with you ;)

lamaros
07-05-2013, 05:20 PM
This is stupid Cory and you are not delivering the game to promised with this stupid promotion stuff. I am very disappointed in you.

hex_colin
07-05-2013, 05:33 PM
Sleeves: not tradable (if you have a sleeve you earned it not bought it)

This certainly increases the difficulty level of my quest... Challenge accepted!

On a more serious note, any chance mousing over the sleeves will give us a popup that tells us their origin? It'd be nice to be able to find out where a particular sleeve we're looking at in-game came from and whether it's still attainable (and how). Otherwise we might actually have to talk to our opponents ;)

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 05:55 PM
This is stupid Cory and you are not delivering the game to promised with this stupid promotion stuff. I am very disappointed in you.

before KS ended, in one of the interviews he mentioned that he would be doing exactly what he is doing in regards to con swag. So to me its exactly as promised.

Icepick
07-05-2013, 05:55 PM
I don't mind sleeves not being tradeable and I can live without a given Mercenary but I'm a massive card collector and not being able to get one card or another (even if it's just alternate art versions of existing cards) bugs me no end. I actually regret not backing the Collector tier in the kickstarter because of the AA cards they'll be getting!

Anyway, my point is, it's all well and good the AA cards being tradeable, but how common are they going to be in the first place? Is GenCon the only place the Ozawa AA will be released? Even with a reasonable amount of hunting on the Auction House, how likely is a person to actually see one? I can understand Cory's stance - it's cool to be able to give stuff like this out to people at live events, but if that becomes the only way to get those things then it either comes insanely expensive or just flat out impossible for people who can't fly to other countries on a whim.

I guess it depends on how many different "promo" cards they do. If they have one group of promos, and those are they only ones they give out at all cons etc. for an entire year (or however long), that becomes much less of an issue. People have multiple chances to get them personally, and more of them are in circulation for those who still can't. If they're coming up with brand new promos for every single even though, it becomes problematic.

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 05:57 PM
I personally it is new sleeves mercs and AA for every event they do.

JesusChristMD
07-05-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm fine with stuff like sleeves and alternate art cards -- they're completely aesthetic, and you can trade the AA cards in-game -- but something like mercenaries should not be convention-exclusive. Mercenaries have an actual impact on gameplay and being forced to buy them for likely ridiculous amounts of money just because you can't go to a physical convention for a game that touts its digital-only aspect and accessibility is pretty crappy.

You actually are not requires to spend ridiculous amounts.

It's called "Don't be a completionist" and guess what? You won't spend ridiculous money like every other completionist does.

Mistborn
07-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Can we at least have the option to purchase a digital loot bag for the duration of the event, similar to how Blizzard handles this?

Atomzed
07-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Please explain why you think it's "not a good thing for the game". You might be right, but I need to hear a reason before I consider abandoning my (contrary) position.

Opps I didnt realize I was asked this question. Sorry yoss. Anyway, why I said about leveling up Merc is because i am worried that 'sweatshops' will be set up to level Mercs.

True, sweat shops will be opened to level up foils and be sold on the AH, but this is qualitatively different from Merc, who makes a difference to PVE gameplay. the level of the Merc determines the ability of the Merc, which in turn determines the viable strategy of the deck.

I just think that leveling up Merc becomes a way for me to get attached to the Merc and get acquainted with different play styles. It also serves as a way for me to recognize how much experience another player has with the Merc, a symbol of dedication i like to call it. These are important things in a MMO game.

Before you jump on me, see my other comment below.


As a TCG gamer, I actually know the opposite: I can collect everything if I'm willing to put in the time and money necessary. Everything ever made for MTG can be purchased on the secondary market.

Actually I agree with this perspective. What I like to see for the Merc, is that it is given out in the form of a coupon or special Merc pack. Like after you redeem the Merc, it comes in a form of an unopened pack. You can then choose to sell it on the auction house or to open it and keep it.

If you open and keep it, it becomes tied to the account irreversibly.

That way, it can avoid the problem I have with selling levelled up Merc, and also to keep the sale of the Merc on the auction house.

Daer
07-05-2013, 06:41 PM
I'm generally fine with how they have set up Con promos but a Digital Loot Bag option for conventions would be awesome.

lamaros
07-05-2013, 06:41 PM
They've already said they were going to give the Hexcon promos to all backers after people complained about that not being in keeping with their digital promises. Now they want to make even more promos that go contrary to the idea of a game that is not dictated by physical restrictions.

hex_colin
07-05-2013, 06:49 PM
They've already said they were going to give the Hexcon promos to all backers after people complained about that not being in keeping with their digital promises. Now they want to make even more promos that go contrary to the idea of a game that is not dictated by physical restrictions.

No, they made a very specific promise about HexCon because they announced it as a stretch goal and wanted all of the KS backers to benefit from it even if they couldn't attend.

That has nothing to do with other conventions, etc.

I'm happy with the planned scheme. Like others, it would be cool to be able to participate virtually at the same time as the Con, but it won't bother me too much if that's not the case.

Stok3d
07-05-2013, 06:58 PM
No, they made a very specific promise about HexCon because they announced it as a stretch goal and wanted all of the KS backers to benefit from it even if they couldn't attend.

That has nothing to do with other conventions, etc.

I'm happy with the planned scheme. Like others, it would be cool to be able to participate virtually at the same time as the Con, but it won't bother me too much if that's not the case.

The Hexcon should be streamed and prizes like blizz. You are right though, this is a convention. I'm actually all for them making a few things highly rare that doesn't involve the KS. Just make the in game items as scratch offs and there is still hope for those that want the items and didn't get the opportunity to go.



I thought maybe I should chime in and give you the scoop on how these work:

Promo AA Cards: Tradable in game, like any other card
Sleeves: not tradable (if you have a sleeve you earned it not bought it)
Promo Mercenaries: Tradable outside game (they will come on a cool oversized card with a scratch off code)

So there it is, I thought it was a reasonable way to handle event promos, it’s something I am passionate about. Cryptozoic live events are an important part of what we do (and I personally love them), I really want to have something exciting at these events. Maybe I’m spoiled by WOW loot cards but the energy that fun desirable promos create is amazing and important.

Sounds Perfect. Thanks for the clarification

Yoss
07-05-2013, 07:06 PM
Opps I didnt realize I was asked this question. Sorry yoss.
Thanks for getting back to it. :)


Anyway, why I said about leveling up Merc is because i am worried that 'sweatshops' will be set up to level Mercs.

True, sweat shops will be opened to level up foils and be sold on the AH, but this is qualitatively different from Merc, who makes a difference to PVE gameplay. the level of the Merc determines the ability of the Merc, which in turn determines the viable strategy of the deck.

I just think that leveling up Merc becomes a way for me to get attached to the Merc and get acquainted with different play styles. It also serves as a way for me to recognize how much experience another player has with the Merc, a symbol of dedication i like to call it. These are important things in a MMO game.

...avoid the problem I have with selling levelled up Merc, and also to keep the sale of the Merc on the auction house.
In another thread someone had a good suggestion for tradeable Mercs: reset their XP when traded. Fixed?

ossuary
07-05-2013, 07:38 PM
Just want to say thanks to Cory for chiming in on the issue for us. Appreciate your interaction, as always. :)

For what it's worth, I'm coming around on the issue myself, and the collector in me (though still kicking and screaming a bit) is being put to rest. I DO like the idea of fun, exclusive stuff being given out at events, online tournaments, and other stuff like that. And yes, I'm fine with some of those exclusives being account bound or whatever you want to call it. If there is going to be so much content that not having a single merc won't make a difference, then that just means there are all the more fun mercs to play around with.

I know you guys took a lot of flack for the whole t-shirt / card thing, but just know that not all of us are QUITE so rabid. ;)

ConnorJS
07-05-2013, 07:50 PM
I'm quite unhappy about missing out on the mercs from events. As a UK fan it is impossible for me to afford all these conventions, and I'm extremely excited about the PvE side of the game. I think that having to pay a ridiculous amount because I can't afford to fly half way across the world to get a merc is a little unfair. Fair enough the AA cards and sleeves being promo, but I think the mercs should be available digitally for streaming the event or something :/. Something that has a large impact on the game (such as mercs) should be widespread in my opinion.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-05-2013, 07:53 PM
I just don't see what the drama is in allowing some way besides physically attending for dedicated players to actually obtain these items, that isn't at the mercy of the secondary market and third party sellers. I live in Australia. I'm not rich. It's unrealistic for me to drop everything, gather savings and attend gencon just for these items. I really want them, and as a dedicated community member I don't feel like I should be thinking "I'm so unlucky not to live in the US at times like this".

AA cards I'm fine with not having. Sleeves I'm fine with not having. Exclusive cards and mercs that will affect gameplay and can only be obtained via physically attended the con, or hoping the secondary market/third party sellers are 'nice' about what they're selling the stuff for? Not ok with.

What really bothers me though is that this doesn't have to be an issue at all, and CZE can even get some additional profit by not alienating those who simply cannot attend.

Chiany
07-05-2013, 07:58 PM
currently the only things unacquireable at all for you would be the sleeves. You can trade ingame for the AA if people put them up and you can trade out of game for the mercs if people sell them. So same as everyone else who can't make an event :)

This is why there should be e-tickets for these events, for let's say $30.
Ppl who buy one of those, get all the goodies too.

IndigoShade
07-05-2013, 08:07 PM
This is why there should be e-tickets for these events, for let's say $30.
Ppl who buy one of those, get all the goodies too.

Yeah, I actually really agree with this considering the appeal of HEX is the TCG experience being freed from as many shackles that limit physical card games as possible. I'm not against them doing conventions in the slightest, but given their history thus far of being really cool about doing what they can to keep their customers happy this seems like a pretty logical way to have your cake and eat it too :D.

Gorgol
07-05-2013, 08:11 PM
This is why there should be e-tickets for these events, for let's say $30.
Ppl who buy one of those, get all the goodies too.
Blizzard does this with Blizzcon

RobHaven
07-05-2013, 08:15 PM
What I like to see for the Merc, is that it is given out in the form of a coupon or special Merc pack. Like after you redeem the Merc, it comes in a form of an unopened pack. You can then choose to sell it on the auction house or to open it and keep it.
If you open and keep it, it becomes tied to the account irreversibly.

As I see it, this is the most perfect solution. It completely avoids the problems that come with buying cards off of the secondary market, but it still provides the exact same reward to the con-goers.


This is why there should be e-tickets for these events, for let's say $30.
Ppl who buy one of those, get all the goodies too.

I am guessing the reason they don't allow this is because it would constitute the sale of something other than boosters and decks, and that is something they said they don't want to do.
Personally I don't think we need to hold their feet to the fire on the "only boosters and decks" thing, as there are plenty of things they could sell without violating the spirit of that promise.

Chiany
07-05-2013, 08:15 PM
Blizzard does this with Blizzcon

I know, that's where most of us suggestion something like this probably got the idea ;)


As I see it, this is the most perfect solution. It completely avoids the problems that come with buying cards off of the secondary market, but it still provides the exact same reward to the con-goers.

I am guessing the reason they don't allow this is because it would constitute the sale of something other than boosters and decks, and that is something they said they don't want to do.
Personally I don't think we need to hold their feet to the fire on the "only boosters and decks" thing, as there are plenty of things they could sell without violating the spirit of that promise.

I agree, but I prefer to look at it like Blizzard does.
Buy a ticket to watch all the streams from the event, and as a bonus reward you get some digital stuff (what just happens to be the same things as the ppl get who attend the event phyiscal).

That way they can maintain there standpoint on only selling packs etc.
But even if they changed there mind on that, I don't care, I just want the goodies ;)

Atomzed
07-05-2013, 08:15 PM
Thanks for getting back to it. :)

In another thread someone had a good suggestion for tradeable Mercs: reset their XP when traded. Fixed?

It's a good suggestion but...

Cory has just stated that the Mercs will be available for trade outside of game, through scratch codes. :) So it looks like they decided to handle it this way. That's fine with me, since the mercs are still tradable in secondary market.

OutlandishMatt
07-05-2013, 08:31 PM
If they make it so you can buy Promos how is that any different from Pay to Win? I never understand internet's reasoning behind things. It's okay for Cryptozoic to sell convention goodies that contain exclusive items but it's not okay for them to sell anything else that even resembles a Kickstarter reward or Pay to Win feature??? The line has to be drawn somewhere and the line is they only sell boosters and decks. Honestly, wouldn't you feel cheated if everyone that goes to HexCon gets the exact promos as a Kickstarter backer?

My bigger quarrel is with non-tradable things in the game. A TCG without the trading just seems ridiculous to me. Imagine if Magic was like that. "Cool playmat." "Thanks. It was an exclusive at Grand Prix San Diego." "Oh wow." "Yeah, unfortunately though it has to remain in my possession at all times and I can't get rid of it." "Uhhhhhh."

Bad analogy I know, but the meaning is there. In real world TCGs I can trade for everything. Deck sleeves, cards, there is no exclusivity. Maybe a better example would be if Wizards of the Coast gave out prizes that were imprinted with the winners name and no one else could ever use them? No, another bad analogy.

Maybe I could buy a good analogy but I hear those are account bound to Yoss. :-/

Hatts
07-05-2013, 08:33 PM
I'm quite unhappy about missing out on the mercs from events. As a UK fan it is impossible for me to afford all these conventions, and I'm extremely excited about the PvE side of the game. I think that having to pay a ridiculous amount because I can't afford to fly half way across the world to get a merc is a little unfair. Fair enough the AA cards and sleeves being promo, but I think the mercs should be available digitally for streaming the event or something :/. Something that has a large impact on the game (such as mercs) should be widespread in my opinion.

A few questions to you and others with the same reaction, what leads you to believe the promo mercs will have a large impact on the game when they've not been described that way? Also, why do you think they'll cost a ridiculous amount? Are you willing to pay a ridiculous amount for a legendary equipment or card and if so, how is this different?

OutlandishMatt
07-05-2013, 08:34 PM
It's a good suggestion but...

Cory has just stated that the Mercs will be available for trade outside of game, through scratch codes. :) So it looks like they decided to handle it this way. That's fine with me, since the mercs are still tradable in secondary market.

Unless Cryptozoic themselves are selling the codes they cannot guarantee that people can obtain them. If people do not list them on eBay or another secondary market then people in other countries cannot obtain them.

I do not think it's good business for a company to assume the community will behave a certain way. What if 100% of people that receive the merc codes use them? What if 50% do while the other 50% don't but do nothing with them?

Has Cryptozoic given any logical reason behind not allowing everything to be traceable besides, "We want it this way." I would like some sort of reasoning.

hexnaes
07-05-2013, 08:38 PM
A few questions to you and others with the same reaction, what leads you to believe the promo mercs will have a large impact on the game when they've not been described that way? Also, why do you think they'll cost a ridiculous amount? Are you willing to pay a ridiculous amount for a legendary equipment or card and if so, how is this different?

Dislcaimer: I'm not upset about exclusive mercs for attending events.

I do think it could be discouraging to some deck building. If you have a great idea for a deck, and the best merc that would compliment that deck isn't available to you because you didn't attend one event. It could be kind of a downer.

I really like the idea of building a deck around each mercenary. A deck that compliments their ability. It'll be fun/challenging, and I can see how some people would want to be able to experiment with each one.

I wouldn't say "large impact" but it would be noticeable to the core fans of the game.

Hatts
07-05-2013, 08:44 PM
OK but what's the difference between paying $50 on a merc off eBay or $50 on a piece of equipment? Arguably the legendary equipment is going to have a bigger effect on your deck than the merc.

OutlandishMatt
07-05-2013, 08:46 PM
OK but what's the difference between paying $50 on a merc off eBay or $50 on a piece of equipment? Arguably the legendary equipment is going to have a bigger effect on your deck than the merc.

Wouldn't one of them see a lot more play than the other?

hexnaes
07-05-2013, 08:48 PM
OK but what's the difference between paying $50 on a merc off eBay or $50 on a piece of equipment? Arguably the legendary equipment is going to have a bigger effect on your deck than the merc.

I agree with you in regards to the legendary equipment having a bigger impact on your deck.

I think the argument there is that the legendary equipment is obtainable in game. Where if you put enough time/effort into it, that equipment will eventually drop.

The mercenary from an event isn't guaranteed to be on eBay. And after the one time handouts are given away, that's it.

I think it's a valid concern. I know I'll be buying mercs off ebay after an event (hopefully).

OutlandishMatt
07-05-2013, 08:54 PM
I do think it could be discouraging to some deck building. If you have a great idea for a deck, and the best merc that would compliment that deck isn't available to you because you didn't attend one event. It could be kind of a downer.

Not to mention it could turn away new players. "Wow, that's a cool merc. Where'd you get it?" "GenCon 2013. They only gave out like 1000 and HexDBTCGStatChecker.info says 990 are already used." "Oh."

Another scenario. "I saw this really cool live stream combo. Unfortunately he had a rare merc from PAX Australia 2013. Only like 5 people went to it, you know, because it's Australia."

Just kidding Australia, but seriously, you guys are getting a PAX and if anything exclusive is given away there we will now know your pain. ;-)

Hatts
07-05-2013, 09:05 PM
Given how chasey the legendary equipment is supposed to be, the mercs could easily be more obtainable.

lamaros
07-05-2013, 09:11 PM
Again, this is advertised as a DIGITAL game, not a 'we give out stuff at physical locations' game. Unless the allow digital access to these exclusives too then they are breaking a core unsterstanding of the game.

Do we have to do the tshirt debacle again?

Make the game properly digital or stop pretending you are making a serious digital CCG.

Hibbert
07-05-2013, 09:19 PM
Again, this is advertised as a DIGITAL game, not a 'we give out stuff at physical locations' game. Unless the allow digital access to these exclusives too then they are breaking a core unsterstanding of the game.

Do we have to do the tshirt debacle again?

Make the game properly digital or stop pretending you are making a serious digital CCG.

Digital games have been giving out exclusives for physical events for ages. There are all sorts of bonuses in games that can only be gotten by going to a certain con or preordering the game at a certain store.

I think we really need to see how mercs actually function in game before final judgement. It seems to me they are kinda like a "Vanguard" sideshow, rather than the true focus of PvE. I also bet if any exclusive merc ended up becoming too dominant, there might end up being a functional reprint of it in a more obtainable form.