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View Full Version : So, how much sexulization should HEX have?



NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 12:08 PM
1. Not trying to open another derailing thread. (please keep anything related to
that banned thread outside of contructive comments away from this)

So there was a spark of honest debate between some members of our community
whether or not and if how much would be appreciated.

What do you think and why?
Should there be slightly erotic content when appropriate lore wise? (seduction flavor, succubus, etc)
Should HEX try to actively avoid portraying females(and/or males) as sexual objects at all?
Should HEX give you as much platemail bikinis as possible no matter the conditions of the card?

Anything in between that is well reasoned or simply stated is obviously a welcome opinion as well.
(I m lying, I m in favor of stimulating content for males and females and I would prefer you agreeing <3)


Also please note that this topic usually is heavily influenced by being public. In this case being linked
to your HEX forum account and the perception that people might have of you.

By all means, please be honest to yourself and dont try to portray some stupid white-knight.

I personally dont think there is any contradiction in being capable of valueing the multitude
of deep characteristics possible in women or men, and at the same time reifying certain people
or fantastic objects.

Also, given the billion incoherencies in MMOs, I personally dont find it unimmersive to be confronted
with the "inappropriateness" of a chick in platemail bikini fighting orcs.
Between magic, gods, cultural structures, social groups and aspects missing, etc etc... there
is so much "flawed" in games trying to portray a believable world, that it already requires either.
1. a low intellect or awareness or 2. conscious decision to blend these things out or come up with
creative explanations. (that warrior woman might be stupid enough to prefer looks over combat effectiveness)

Anyhow, I found the topic engaging enough to warrant a secondary thread with less digression.
If I somehow offend anyone in doing so, I apologize and will try my best to rectify my mistake.

EDIT: I guess I didnt actually state it so...; I m highly in favor of stylized females and males.

Madican
05-31-2013, 12:11 PM
I think that skimpy clothing should only occur if it's justified. Such as elves, who seem like the type to be closer to nature. But if it's a human knight, then no, they wear actual armor not bikini-plate.

Fireblast
05-31-2013, 12:12 PM
Depending on culture we don't have the same definition of erotic.
Oversized boobs is no issue for Europeans so...

The goal is for the game to be for 12 years old+ so it'll be "soft"

~

jai151
05-31-2013, 12:12 PM
Are we disregarding anything aside from what we would personally want in the game or do things like rating and wide audience appeal come into play?

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 12:15 PM
Well, I'm pretty sure that the average age of MTG players is around the mid-20s, and most of them are male...

...We'll see how it goes. Doesn't seem like Cryptozoic is being extreme on the cards. It'll probably end up being similar to WoW, but less cartoony.

Tathel
05-31-2013, 12:15 PM
I'm of two minds, Opinion 1:

I'm in favor of as much hyper sexualization as possible.
Male and Female.

I think like the ancient greeks maybe, art should show perfection?

So unless the point is that something is supposed to be unappealing i don't mind it not having realistic standards.

That being said nudity, overt sexual act references etc. As much as i would enjoy it i want the game to be playable by a range of age categories, so maybe nothing more than 90's comic book TNA.


On the other hand!:
They are building lore and doing a novel(s), so this will be more than just art to look at. While i like beautiful men and women, if they are writing a novel perhaps for storyline reasons it is preferable to have a more realistic spectrum.

Conclusion:
So mostly it depends. I would tend to lean toward making beautiful art for the cards excepting where it contradicts lore.

Stok3d
05-31-2013, 12:18 PM
I'm looking for eye candy. I'm all for some decent, yet sexy pics / sexual objects. Nudity - No. Sexiness - Yes. Most MMOs do it (yes even WoW)


The goal is for the game to be for 12 years old+ so it'll be "soft"

Ask most any 12year old male and I'm willing to bet that they'd follow in sync with my suggestion.

Fireblast
05-31-2013, 12:21 PM
If there are nude art, the game won't be "legal" for teens in the US :)

I'm pretty sure they're all watching youporn; but they can't play a game with boobs on cards :p

~

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 12:24 PM
I propose that anyone whoms opinion differs depending on considerations gives both opinions.

My preference is known.

Taking marketing and legalization into consideration I still believe its the right choice, even more so.
Not only is sexyness all over the world, tv, movies, mals, shops, clothing, and ofc the whole internet,
but rating has never been an actual barrier.

Every game rated for Teens with 15+ has been played by more 12 year old boys than 15 year olds.

And I dont think anyone here fears that the Esport aspect (the only one with actual identity issues)
is going to be full of underaged kids.

(and of course there is this hypocrisy that our world hasnt adepted to our age.
Every male person of my generation or the one after I asked has admitted to seeing
porn or erotic content on the internet well before the age of 15/12 or even 10.
And the demographic group I take that information from is basically as diverse as it gets)

SnowBouLe
05-31-2013, 12:26 PM
its freakin fantasy let the artist do what they want and let them work :P

Moondancer
05-31-2013, 12:30 PM
its freakin fantasy let the artist do what they want and let them work :P

Agreed if it fits the characater/art piece then go for it.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-31-2013, 12:36 PM
I'm always hoping that they hire Luis Royo to do some artwork http://pinterest.com/disarmed/artist-gallery-luis-royo/

katkillad
05-31-2013, 12:40 PM
I think it should be up to the artist. In the context of games, most games aren't realistic and I don't see why creativity should remain in the confines of being realistic.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 12:43 PM
I'm always hoping that they hire Luis Royo to do some artwork http://pinterest.com/disarmed/artist-gallery-luis-royo/

+1

Niedar
05-31-2013, 12:55 PM
My objection has nothing to do with people seeing nudity or sexual content at any age and it also has nothing to do with immersion breaking of the lore. In the other thread when I said characters should only be sexualized when it actually makes sense rather than having bikini armor my reasons are because of the reason that is done. It is done as an objectification of women as sex objects for the the males that play the game. Males aren't the only ones that will play this game though and it promotes an environment that helps to drive women away from the game which I think is a bad thing. If you need to go watch porn, but I don't think women need to be objectified like that in a game. Note that I am not saying there should be no nudity, or that in cases there should be no sexualized art. I am only saying that every depiction of a female character should not be sexualized when it makes no sense for them to be. I don't really think it will be a problem because it seems so far cryptozoic is pretty much taking the same stance I am describing.

Muktidata
05-31-2013, 12:56 PM
This thread should be renamed to HEX SEX.

Fireblast
05-31-2013, 12:59 PM
My objection has nothing to do with people seeing nudity or sexual content at any age and it also has nothing to do with immersion breaking of the lore. In the other thread when I said characters should only be sexualized when it actually makes sense rather than having bikini armor my reasons are because of the reason that is done. It is done as an objectification of women as sex objects for the the males that play the game. Males aren't the only ones that will play this game though and it promotes an environment that helps to drive women away from the game which I think is a bad thing. If you need to go watch porn, but I don't think women need to be objectified like that in a game. Note that I am not saying there should be no nudity, or that in cases there should be no sexualized art. I am only saying that every depiction of a female character should not be sexualized when it makes no sense for them to be. I don't really think it will be a problem because it seems so far cryptozoic is pretty much taking the same stance I am describing.

Why can't women let us know if the bikini armors bother them?
I'm pretty sure they don't need you to speak for them

~

Moondancer
05-31-2013, 12:59 PM
I'm always hoping that they hire Luis Royo to do some artwork http://pinterest.com/disarmed/artist-gallery-luis-royo/

Please note this link is not work safe.

Niedar
05-31-2013, 01:00 PM
Why can't women let us know if the bikini armors bother them?
I'm pretty sure they don't need you to speak for them

~

They do. They also get attacked for it all the time by the gaming community.

Moondancer
05-31-2013, 01:01 PM
Why can't women let us know if the bikini armors bother them?
I'm pretty sure they don't need you to speak for them

~

My guess is they are letting you know that by not being here.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 01:02 PM
@Niedar

I always have and always will propose relatively equal treatment for both sex in this case.
(relative because no matter how you argue or turn it, the benefits of male company
are different for women than the benefits of female company for a man.
We are biologically predetermined to value certain qualities higher in each other than
the different sex is. This does not in any way imply that we are incapable of valuing
everything in each other. It just means that a man usually doesnt need a woman to feel
comfortable and safe.....)

Males should be as attractive as possible for women.

I dont complain that women prefer certain builds, hairstyles, faces, muscle-groups, clothes etc.

Women shouldnt complain that I do the same, even though my desires have a longer cultural history.

In the end all our desires (outside some conditioned fetishes) can be traced to biological preferences and needs.

Tathel
05-31-2013, 01:02 PM
My objection has nothing to do with people seeing nudity or sexual content at any age and it also has nothing to do with immersion breaking of the lore. In the other thread when I said characters should only be sexualized when it actually makes sense rather than having bikini armor my reasons are because of the reason that is done. It is done as an objectification of women as sex objects for the the males that play the game. Males aren't the only ones that will play this game though and it promotes an environment that helps to drive women away from the game which I think is a bad thing. If you need to go watch porn, but I don't think women need to be objectified like that in a game. Note that I am not saying there should be no nudity, or that in cases there should be no sexualized art. I am only saying that every depiction of a female character should not be sexualized when it makes no sense for them to be. I don't really think it will be a problem because it seems so far cryptozoic is pretty much taking the same stance I am describing.

People complain about things like Red Sonja's armour... but for some reason never accept my argument that Conan is usually wearing less and needs it just as much ^_^

I think that the balance was super tilted toward females being sex objects in fantasy for a very long time. So it has trapped people's perception in such a way that when you show a scantily clad female warrior alongside an equally scantily clad male warrior conservatives will gasp at the woman and view the man as no more than a basketball player playing shirts and skins.

The problem is that the perception, perhaps, will remain until the trigger has disappeared long enough that people don't think about it. So companies that want to be respectful sometimes avoid it with that hope, yet the few companies that are still only selling women as sexualized objects in an unfair manner obviously won't care about shying away.

So you end up with the same problem if those with good hearts avoid the issue all together.

I think just make sure that your style is consistant from one sex to another and it is not sexism, and stand by the logic behind that even if conservatives want the female more clothed than the male.

Chance
05-31-2013, 01:07 PM
Look at League of Legends, theres more tits than playable champions. The loading screens are glorious and they have a large playerbase of females, probably the most just based on pure numbers. Sexualization is not bad its natural, I'll respect women and men the same way in real life I don't need a video game to tell me otherwise and it's not their job.

Woman become objectified because as a male and for hundreds of thousands of years we've been doing just that. You arn't going to change that by taking a stance or educating people to STOP OBJECTIFYING. The "problem" will always exist so you need to co exist, women have so much more to offer but I won't take away their sexuality just to prove that. Likewise I'm not going to be pissed when every dude in the game is a sword wielding badass and damn attractive to

Madican
05-31-2013, 01:09 PM
Okay, I'm nipping this in the bud right now.

A woman in skimpy clothing is a male fantasy. A muscular man in skimpy clothes is STILL a male fantasy.

Omegahugger
05-31-2013, 01:09 PM
Like at least some others, I'd don't mind sexualisation of females as long as it isn't mandatory (which we've seen it isn't with Hex) and as long as it also covers males. Of course, as a straight human male, I don't have an instinctual knowledge of what girls find "sexy". I know that the same rules don't apply to both genders, I.E. when you undress a female it's usually to show her skin whereas with a guy it is usually to show his abs.

Are there any girls willing to shed some light on the subject? Not neccesarily on what constitutes as attractive, but also how you feel the entire thing should be treated. (sorry if I offend by saying this, but my experiences tell me that these discussions are usually dominated by a single gender, so I wanted to call out. C:)



I think like the ancient greeks maybe, art should show perfection?


I think this is an interesting point, This may just be my own personal views, but when it comes to fiction, everything is idealised. This is obvious when it comes to stuff like romance and looks, but even when we give our characters flaws, they tend to be "ideal flaws", perfectly suited to the stories at hand. The anti-hero's lack of concern for civilians is tailored specifically to make the story grey, the husband's cheating heart is constructed to create drama and so forth.

What does this mean for Hex? Not much, to be brutally honest, other than that no matter what happens, the characters will still be "pretty", because it is human nature to make them like that.

Also, because it should be mentioned, my personal preferences say "Put all the girls in FULL PLATE MAIL! Put all the guys in FULL PLATE MAIL too! Heck, give the Kraken some armor as well!" Because I find plate mail pretty.

OmarEpps
05-31-2013, 01:10 PM
My objection has nothing to do with people seeing nudity or sexual content at any age and it also has nothing to do with immersion breaking of the lore. In the other thread when I said characters should only be sexualized when it actually makes sense rather than having bikini armor my reasons are because of the reason that is done. It is done as an objectification of women as sex objects for the the males that play the game. Males aren't the only ones that will play this game though and it promotes an environment that helps to drive women away from the game which I think is a bad thing. If you need to go watch porn, but I don't think women need to be objectified like that in a game. Note that I am not saying there should be no nudity, or that in cases there should be no sexualized art. I am only saying that every depiction of a female character should not be sexualized when it makes no sense for them to be. I don't really think it will be a problem because it seems so far cryptozoic is pretty much taking the same stance I am describing.

This person is right.

Fireblast, you once again prove how terrible you are.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 01:15 PM
I think chance is on the right track and maybe I didnt emphasise it enough.

We should continue to portray strong female characters with deep personality.
It should be made apparent that the value of women can be as complex and
deep or even more so than that of men.

We should stop hiding our sexual desires and condition ourself to some fake whiteknight
self rightiousness. Right now, higher educational groups are often deluding themselves
in thinking bigger of them, by doing exactly that. Glorifying the intelectual properties and
demeaning the physical ones.

That will never lead to a more open and honest sociaty capable of matures interaction.
Just like any self-deception usually does, this will only lead to hidden frustration and further
problems like the common verbal abuse of women on the internet.

This wouldnt be the case or not as bad, if people didnt have a reason to hide their desires.

Keznath
05-31-2013, 01:17 PM
honestly, dont care...

OmarEpps
05-31-2013, 01:25 PM
I think chance is on the right track and maybe I didnt emphasise it enough.

We should continue to portray strong female characters with deep personality.
It should be made apparent that the value of women can be as complex and
deep or even more so than that of men.

We should stop hiding our sexual desires and condition ourself to some fake whiteknight
self rightiousness. Right now, higher educational groups are often deluding themselves
in thinking bigger of them, by doing exactly that. Glorifying the intelectual properties and
demeaning the physical ones.

That will never lead to a more open and honest sociaty capable of matures interaction.
Just like any self-deception usually does, this will only lead to hidden frustration and further
problems like the common verbal abuse of women on the internet.

This wouldnt be the case or not as bad, if people didnt have a reason to hide their desires.

No one is hiding their desires, man. I'm talking about not having a DDD breasted elf with a size 0 waist wearing a bra with nipple holes and crotchless panties going to fight a 300LB all muscle giant.

Also, if you turn to a card game to meet your "desires" you're a weird creep.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 01:26 PM
Concerning some female input, I just spoke to my girlfriend (she has no forum account right now and doesnt see the need to do it just to speak for herself in this thread. This has been said sololy to proactively take any ground from someone argueing stupid things)

She likes pretty women and the occasional sideboob almost as much as I do, (though she still prefers some bad ass abs over the usual big breasts in for example animes).

It should be said though, that she has no real negative emotional experiences with being objectified.

Since she is living with one of the most perverted beings in existence (yours truely) but given our
relationship has no doubts of my esteem of her entire character with abundance of other qualities.

Heck this girl is telling me when I missed some nice ass walking by, just because she knows I enjoy
the eye-candy and it wont take anything away from the complete devotion and satisfaction we have.

so, this might be one of the rarer cases, but in our social circle in general women dont mind being
objectified. Not as long as they have good reason to believe that there are also men capable
of appreciating them for their entire package.

EDIT: @Omar, so you say HEX shouldnt fullfil my desires oO?
Not my desire for entertainment, excitemend, competition, nice breasts?

katkillad
05-31-2013, 01:26 PM
People complain about things like Red Sonja's armour... but for some reason never accept my argument that Conan is usually wearing less and needs it just as much ^_^


I agree, people tend to focus on one side of this argument and don't recognize that male fantasy art is just as extreme. It's all an exaggeration which is why I don't have a problem with it.

Take this card/cards for example:
http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HEX_ASSET_33.jpg

You can apply everything that's usually said about over sexualization and objectification of women to this art as well. Why isn't he wearing a shirt or armor? That is not the anatomy of an average male. Since this is art, you can exaggerate characteristics and give a style or meaning not as easily produced as in real life.

How many games do you play that have skinny or overweight males? I'm sure people will give some anecdotal examples, but by and large most male characters are just as exaggerated as female characters are. Not that all women read romance novels, but have you ever seen what the men look like on the cover of those?

Madican
05-31-2013, 01:32 PM
Women wearing skimpy armor is a male fantasy. Muscular men in skimpy clothing is STILL a male fantasy.

Saying that it's equal on both sides is plain bullshit.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 01:33 PM
as an edit to my last post and the katkillad. My gf just added the same thing.
Playing magic and wow-tcg together she thinks most men are just as stylized and
appreciates that aspect of the game.

Edit: @ Madican, this post should prove most of that wrong.
as my post earlier also implied, women can just as much
appriciate the beautiful women that are portrayed.
Dont know if this is always true, but her guess is that most
females that take offense to other girls being drawn sexy
are girls having problems with their own self esteem for different reasons.

2 Edit: from personal experience over the years (being a gamer all my life and
having had many relationships before finding my lovely partner)
I have never once met a girl who deems herself sexy and confident
who has any problem what so ever with the objectification of women.
This is even truer for those realizing the true nature of people and
knowing enough male persons that cherish their other properties.

katkillad
05-31-2013, 01:36 PM
Women wearing skimpy armor is a male fantasy. Muscular men in skimpy clothing is STILL a male fantasy.

Saying that it's equal on both sides is plain bullshit.

Why are you trying to apply gender to fantasy? Personally I don't need my "male fantasy" to feature half naked men with a physique that i'll never obtain. You are making a pretty broad statement. Tell me what males look like in a female created/dominated fantasy world.

Chance
05-31-2013, 01:36 PM
Can we please reprimand Omar, over exaggeration of problems and calling people out for the sake of instigating detracks from the topic and he's done this in every thread.

Chance
05-31-2013, 01:38 PM
Kat go read Twilight and you kind of have your answer

Madican
05-31-2013, 01:42 PM
Why are you trying to apply gender to fantasy? Personally I don't need my "male fantasy" to feature half naked men with a physique that i'll never obtain. You are making a pretty broad statement. Tell me what males look like in a female created/dominated fantasy world.

Sure thing. It's called false equivalence, and even better, a good explanation is in comic form. http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 01:49 PM
@Madican

I m sorry to say, but that comic is made more for men feeling bad about their abs
than it is for women to defend their actual desires.

Yes there are loads of stylized attributes among man that are appreciated more
or solely by other male people. Most often without them realizing that.

But broad generalization on that topic is about as mature and correct as anywhere else.

There are enough women finding bulky and muscular males attractive.
Also no one in this thread has argued against some more feminine versions of men (pretty boys)
if that is what the female audience desires.

(again my gf prefers slender builds as well, but still highly muscular. You cant just ignore one
aspect to make your point easier to prove)

Madican
05-31-2013, 01:53 PM
You're changing my argument to make it easier to attack, you do realize that's a fallacy right?

Nowhere did I say that women can't find musclebound men attractive. What I am stating outright is that anyone using the "Men are objectified too" is ignoring that muscle-bound men is a male power fantasy. Skimpy women are not a female fantasy. False equivalence.

Chance
05-31-2013, 01:55 PM
The korean definately appreciates a more feminine male, its frowned upon to be bulky or even athlectically fit. I've heard of studies that women will say what they want but in reality its a bit different they lean closer towards a Bradd Pitt (fight club) phisyque with 10% BF than say a bigger bodybuilder.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 02:00 PM
But you are changing it around too much. Your comment seems to imply exactly that.
That its ONLY a male fantasy. Which is as wrong as calling at a pure female fantasy.

Also thats exactly what I was stating earlier.

Skimpy women are a female fantasy, just as females watch "next top model" shows more than man do.

Its just that the common flaw of males to correctly value deeper characteristics in women that
drives many women away from identifying with super hot fantasy girls while feeling comfortable.

Its was common and accepted in a multitude of cultures to identify with a certain ideal (no matter what it is).

Modern new age controversies denying our own nature are the only thing talking women out of
appreciating stylized beautiful girls in games.

Its already normal in models, cinema, books. Females enjoy other sexy females just as much as man enjoy
muscular man do. Though not as much as each gender usually enjoys the opposite.

Again, I ve never met a sexy girl having any real problem with her appreciation of stylized girls in games.
Its usually the ones that cant or are unwilling to accomodate our social ideals that criticize these things.

And again there is this huge movement trying to convince everyone that its necessery to be "natural"
or almost ugly, just so that men have a fair chance of spotting your other qualities.
Anyone with the smallest bit of sense knows that thats bullshit.

If a male cant tell your intellect from your breast-size, its a problem with HIM, not a problem of your breasts.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 02:03 PM
You're changing my argument to make it easier to attack, you do realize that's a fallacy right?

Nowhere did I say that women can't find musclebound men attractive. What I am stating outright is that anyone using the "Men are objectified too" is ignoring that muscle-bound men is a male power fantasy. Skimpy women are not a female fantasy. False equivalence.

I can see how skimpy women could be a female fantasy, maybe not a power fantasy. Although females can definitely use their bodies to gain power over people.

demonanil
05-31-2013, 02:04 PM
Why did this guy even start a thread like this. If this guy has an issue with a TCG game based on a Fantasy fictional realm, worrying about skimpy clothing on the female based characters. Then don't play the game, don't back it. It's a game....It's a TCG... Just about every tcg out there has some kind of fan service to offer. Please remember this is a fantasy game Dragons orc's goblins elfs humans etc...

You have to ask. What works??? Here is the answer and this has been working for a loooooong loooooooooooooooooooooooooong time now. I hope some of you understand and comprehend this. Those of you who don't then you must truly live under a rock or in your own little world. This answer is 100% true.

Answer: Sex sells!!

It has been this way for years and years and years now. As seen irl, on tv, in movies, in video games, in tcg's etc.... Sex sells. A majority of the people who play TCG's are guys. I highly doubth they would be angry upset or against some cards having female characters in skimpy attire. I also highly doubt they would care if some male characters had 6 pack abs no shirts and had well toned as well as sculpted bodies.

Women like to show off their bodies at times. A girl loses 10-15 pounds she been working hard being healthier. She usually is shy and wears bag clothes. She finally has confidence in herself and her hard work her body. So she wants to wear something sexy or a little more skimpy. Anything wrong with that?? No. Same for a guy.

Hex already has certain cards made that have female characters in bikini type attire. Do you guys really think this goofy silly thread will stop the artists and dev team from making more cards down the line in future sets with female chars in skimpy attire? NO..

Again as i have said. Sex sells, it's a fact. If players have issues with this silly argument. Then simply do not play or collect that certain card. Everyone has their own values and thoughts on males and females as well as style and attire. No one forcing you to do anything.

Madican
05-31-2013, 02:05 PM
Yeah, I'm not responding to you anymore. Here's a key tip for future debates: your anecdotes are not factual evidence and they do not apply to the statistical whole. Saying anything like "I have never seen/heard/met" in an argument is worthless hearsay.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I'm not responding to you anymore. Here's a key tip for future debates: your anecdotes are not factual evidence and they do not apply to the statistical whole. Saying anything like "I have never seen/heard/met" in an argument is worthless hearsay.

Okay but I don't see how being attractive isn't a female fantasy?

edit: also you have made nothing but claims about statistical wholes or something, and linked a comic. So if you're going to make the point that you need to use figures that pertain to the broader population, you should probably actually use them.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 02:06 PM
demonanil dont know if your actually read anything.

The majority in this thread (and more importantly the OP me ^^) is in favor of sex sells.

The thread is designed for me and anyone interested to get a glimpse of the general consensus
in our current community on this topic, since it had been up for debate in another thread already.

@Medican


You are implying that we can use no experience what so ever
outside of almost non existent and even less reliable statistics on
some random university?

How the hell are we supposed to debate without any context or
values? What should be our meridian? What can we base anything off?

I never implied that my "anecdotes" are prove alone. But to call them non-factual
or statistically irrelevant is insanity given the minor amount of actual data on
this topic.

If you know where we can find concluding analysis of the TCG market with
all demographic groups considered, concerning the topic of this thread...
than please dont hide that valueable information from us.

But if you dont have such data, than why on earth would you try to demean
the small amount of information I m trying to gather in here.

Also a phrase like "never have" can easily be either the truth of my own limited
experience on the topic or a slight hyperbole trying to make a point.
There is no reason given the phrasing of my posts, to assume any rethorical
implications.

Chance
05-31-2013, 02:14 PM
Madican how come your statements arn't anecdotes? You've gone on to say some controversial things without bringing any factual information or peer reviewed studys, as far as I can see you both are discussing something thats a matter of opinion. I'd love for it to be otherwise though

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 02:17 PM
@ Chance, if you feel that I also digressed from the honest attempt of gathering information
as well as trying for some controvercial debate about the topic than by all means, help me
get back on track ;O.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 02:18 PM
http://www.girlscouts.org/research/what_girls_say/body_image.asp
http://www.mybodybeautiful.co.uk/body_image/BodyImage_Studies.htm " 70%: 17 years olds have been on a diet & 80% unhappy with their image." The study in this one was conducted by Harvard. Imo being comfortable with your body, being attractive, and being able to show it off is a female fantasy.

Note how often girls compare themselves to models and media figures.

And all it took was a 5 second google search.

katkillad
05-31-2013, 02:19 PM
Yea i'm not trying to be a jerk, but a comic explaining false equivalence is 100% anecdotal and didn't prove much in this context. Most of what we are talking about is opinion and even what i've been saying is nothing more than an opinion.

Chance
05-31-2013, 02:26 PM
Tal these are articles and I cant find the links to the actual studies can you please dig those up for me :3?

@ Nayra I don't care if its a matter of opinion or reviewed studies so long as both sides are okay with that kind of discussion, which up until now it seemed fine to openly talk about opinions. I think this thread has been pretty fruitful and stayed on point but its kinda veered off now that people are feeling antagonized.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 02:27 PM
Tal these are articles and I cant find the links to the actual studies can you please dig those up for me :3?

@ Nayra I don't care if its a matter of opinion or reviewed studies so long as both sides are okay with that kind of discussion, which up until now it seemed fine to openly talk about opinions. I think this thread has been pretty fruitful and stayed on point but its kinda veered off now that people are feeling antagonized.

Well the first one the girl scouts conducted the study..second one not sure, if I spent more time I can probably find some but leaving work now :c

Chance
05-31-2013, 02:32 PM
The first one is still an article but it goes on to say 9 out of 10 girls either don't care how they look are they are happy..? Then it shows a graph that depicts the majority of them feel that way because of family/friends, which sounds normal. I don't really know where you stand anymore :|

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 02:35 PM
I m always a little bit confused on the use of the word "opinion".

From where I come from (yes thats entirely used for the phrase) my "opinion"
is what given the limited amount of information and processing power I deem
to be "true".

So there is no real difference in an opinion and a fact, except the amount of information,
authority or amount of people backing it up.

I would be (even if a little off topic) interested what most people here mean by "opinion".

Because it often feels like some excuse to give random statements of feelings without
any effort to argue for or against the named "intuition".

Which I find frustrating since I strive for educated "guesses" in everything I do in life.
So in general I start to get alienated more and more by the word "opinion".

The whole point of "everyone is allowed an opinion" is inherently flawed without context.
We obviously mind some people having certain opinions. Or at least what they could do
acting on those believes.

So either everyone is only entitled to well-grounded opinions.
Or opinions dont matter at all since we dont actually care what they are or who has them.
This obviously is extremist in nature and only ment to make a point.

Giving everyone the freedom to have any opinion what so ever doesnt seem contructive.
Not for the idividual and even less so for the "greater good".

shiningideal
05-31-2013, 02:39 PM
The fact that the art is not heavily engaged in fanservice so far pleases me - I was just having a conversation with a couple people the other day about that as a selling point. I'm too old to want to look at pictures designed to titillate a twelve year old or someone who hasn't matured much beyond that. Do I like beautiful women? Sure. Do I think that myself and generic artist X have the same definition of beauty? Not as much as one looks at fantasy art.

JesusChristMD
05-31-2013, 02:43 PM
Personally I laughed at the wall of text delving into psychological issues while misspelling sexualization.

Chance
05-31-2013, 02:47 PM
I think everyone should have an opinion but how strong you feel towards it should be based on your accumulated knowledge on said topic. You have to understand that going into an argument/discusion isn't about proving your point so much as it is about aquiring knowledge and sharing knowledge. It would be more efficient if we could limit people from having opinions but it wouldn't be humane and I don't believe justified, thus you should consider changing your perspective.

I do the same thing and its pretty human to get heated about topics but if you can stay on point and are willing to renegogiate with your self you can work around that.

Turtlewing
05-31-2013, 02:48 PM
So there is no real difference in an opinion and a fact, except the amount of information,
authority or amount of people backing it up.


No "opinion" means "I think this", "fact" means "this is objectively/provably true".

If something is a fact it is logically impossible for someone to disagree with it (if they disagree they are wrong).

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 02:54 PM
ok, let me rephrase my point given your statement.

Its a necessity to have an opinion on every topic. (its impossible not to, at least subconsciously)

But as you said you should be aware of the depth of your foundation on each topic.

I never start an argument trying to "prove my point".
But I DO start every argument to "prove some point".

What I slightly dislike about your phrasing is, that it sounds evasive on the whole "prove" point.
Naturally I m aware of the problems with proving anything in general, but I mean to consider an
argument to the point of clarity given the limited amount of time, information and processing power.

Being attached to your opinion is healthy outside of discussions, since its all you got.
But once you reflect about any topic, your point of view should usually be about as
objective as it can get.


@Jesus , I m terribly sorry that my english sucks as much as it does. Its no real excuse that it isnt
my native tounge, so I apologize if it discredits what I m trying to communicate.

@Turtlewing I m aware of the definition.
The problem is, there is nothing you can prove without relying on some axiom first ;(.
Which in return means that any deep conversations needs to start with some axiom.
(extra: my axiom of choice is "happyness is worth striving for" because without it
there would be no form of orientation at all)

Chance
05-31-2013, 03:21 PM
It's evasive because we are discussing a matter of opinion which based on the very definition of one is "non factual". Given enough time and processing power we can turn matters of opinion into hypothesis and go into further detail with science, until we decide that I don't go into an argument to prove some point that way I'm more likely to adapt and form a better idea (at least I should).

I think we are very close on the matter of opinions, on a forum with controversial topics I would suspect your rate of proving anything to anyone is incredibly low I believe its more effective to be evasive and non intrusive because people are more inclined to listen when they don't feel threathened. The way you write sounds very well informed but your stance is very aggressive. Again I believe its about sharing and aquiring knowledge not about proving points.

katkillad
05-31-2013, 03:25 PM
Given the nature of this discussion, pretty much everything is going to be an opinion regardless if people know it is or not :) I really don't like double standards which is what got me on my rant.

People have obsessed over the human anatomy, both male and female figures, probably since the beginning of time. Was it "male fantasy" that convinced Michelangelo to create the statue of David butt naked? Surely he didn't fight Goliath without any pants on. My point is this kind of art seen in Hex is stylized and exaggerated and that goes for both genders and doesn't have to be based on reality. Personally i'm not going to raise a fuss if a male has his shirt off or a female's armor isn't completely protecting all of her vitals.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 03:39 PM
Mh, dont know how I can add to that without repeating some of my points.

Lets try it like this.

I believe in absolute truth. I also believe it to be unattainable by mankind in forseeable future.
However every opinion should fall on a rough scale, being either closer to "truth" or further away
than each other possible opinion.

So what I am aiming for in any kind of discussion, is enabling me and each participant of the argument
to have the highest chance to find and agree on the best option of all proposed opinions.
Its completely irrelevant if this turns out to be one of the starting opinions or a completely new one.

The reason why my style of writing and argumentation is so aggressive is exactly this:
I believe its nigh impossible for 2 opinions on a matter to have close to equal "worth" (being equally close to truth).

I m not aggressive because I need some form of acknowledgement, or have a desire to evangelize people.

Its selfish in a different way. I want the best shot possible to have the highest expected value in every decision I make. That requires the best reasonably obtainable amount of education on the topic in question. Depending on preferences, times, opportunity etc this can come from totally different sources.

Right now I want to scavange the questionable source that these forums are.
Given that the level of constructivity is slightly higher here than usual for the internetz.

I dont mean to offend anyone, though I m aware that the style I explained above
tends to confront a lot of people in aggrevating ways.
Regrettable as that may be, I still believe it to be the best shot for me and every inclined
contributer of the discussion to find the best possible opinion for the time being.

Pretending that the "subjective nature" of these arguments is unsolvable just hinders
any honest attempt and strive for perfection. It doesnt need to be possible to achieve
objective truth on any topic in any circumstance, just to be worth striving for
"as close as you can get".

Chance
05-31-2013, 03:58 PM
I agree with the majority of what your saying it just seems like its harder to acheive honest answers and perfection by being aggressive, regardless of your intentions you'll be shutting down people and invalidating what they have to say because they see it as a personal affront. Ideally you have the right mindset but social interactions won't ever be ideal (at least in our lifetime), so catering to people psychologically would have a greater output of knowledge because they will try that much harder to meet you on level grounds.

Though I can't prove my method is any better then yours I can say that we were able to get this far because of our ability to discuss without feeling accosted or personally insulted. There are examples of people and discussions in this thread that stopped because of offended opinions who might have brought something insightful to the table.

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 03:59 PM
They should do whatever they feel they need to do for their setting. The end. If there's an enclave of naked magic water nymphs, then fine, naked magic water nymph, if there's a continent with burly muscular fullplated women, then have that.

TheProphet
05-31-2013, 04:09 PM
the game being digital could we not like most games have an on/off switch like blood or mature content?

jai151
05-31-2013, 04:11 PM
the game being digital could we not like most games have an on/off switch like blood or mature content?

Black bars on the cards (regardless of their ability to be disabled) would offend me far more than nudity or blood =P

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 04:14 PM
Mh I know where youre coming from chance, but they way you said that
made me realize that part of my attitude is arrogance towards the source of information.

People capable to reflect and reconsider are usually people that dont take affront
by sharp critique or small rethoric jabs. And the average quality of their input is worlds
above that of people needing their fears tendered and artificial motivation to provide decent points.

So more than a tactic for successful discussions this might very well be an automatic
filter for self-questioning individuals that strive for quality information and not approval.

In the end if you just want random information/intuition of people unwilling to endure
critique or demanding approaches towards discussions, there are loads of possibilities and
options to choose from as sources.

You might have observed that I have never minded being insulted (in the other thread or here),
but rather took it on myself to try my best in staying reasonable and constructive.

I believe your method gets your more quantity and a lot more sympathy (or makes you less unlikeable).
But I also think that my method gets more quality information(per time) and finds valuable
social contacts more reliably. (mainly in real life, where I am as direct and demanding on such topics).
Never had too many friends, never had bad ones either though.

EDIT: on topic: I agree that any form of censoreship would be far worse ^^.
Though I could see the "alternate art" of cards be an awesome way
of giving people a choice between sexualization or not.
Usually this is "only" used for rarity or variety..
But why not use AA (when possible) for such a controversial choice?
(and by demand proving the urge for fanservice !! <3 ^^)

Talreth
05-31-2013, 04:34 PM
I don't know if I ever stated my position on this but I am fine w/sexualized art up to the point of nudity, which I don't think belongs here.

Niedar
05-31-2013, 04:41 PM
the game being digital could we not like most games have an on/off switch like blood or mature content?

No because this discussion is not about mature content so I am not sure how that would do anything. Mature content is fine I think with everyone that has posted in here.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 04:55 PM
Btw, as this has been a rather contructive thread so far, why not expand the topic on gore?

I mean any form of mature content like horror, violence, religion (you know what I mean, pentas etc).

Not that this game needs to be adult only, but I would prefer a mixture between very
idealized super fantasy (cool dragons, beautiful women, savage orcs etc) and also an honest
amount of sexappeal, grim cults, dark phantasy interpretation of for example vampires.

So far HEX already seemed to go into that direction (though slightly too much realism for
my taste in not enough "superfantasy idealism").

Also as a question for everyone in here. What are your favorite types of Art on cards?
Everyone knows now that I m a sucker for good poses and cleavages... but my favorit
Art are usual big "universal" effects like Day of Judgment from Magic, or other nature
phenomenon like Lightning bolt/helix. I m missing those a little so far. (though inferno is nice <3)

Talreth
05-31-2013, 04:56 PM
Btw, as this has been a rather contructive thread so far, why not expand the topic on gore?

I mean any form of mature content like horror, violence, religion (you know what I mean, pentas etc).

Not that this game needs to be adult only, but I would prefer a mixture between very
idealized super fantasy (cool dragons, beautiful women, savage orcs etc) and also an honest
amount of sexappeal, grim cults, dark phantasy interpretation of for example vampires.

So far HEX already seemed to go into that direction (though slightly too much realism for
my taste in not enough "superfantasy idealism").

Also as a question for everyone in here. What are your favorite types of Art on cards?
Everyone knows now that I m a sucker for good poses and cleavages... but my favorit
Art are usual big "universal" effects like Day of Judgment from Magic, or other nature
phenomenon like Lightning bolt/helix. I m missing those a little so far. (though inferno is nice <3)

I like good dragon art.

Niedar
05-31-2013, 05:01 PM
I am a fan of a lot of the zombie/undead artwork I have seen so far and I also really like the artwork that was on this card that was previewed today.

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ChronicMadness_Gear_Web.png

Most of the human artwork I have found a little boring so far.

Travis
05-31-2013, 05:06 PM
Please don't fill my fantasy card game with average looking people or people that have never eaten a good meal or exercised in their life. Please make characters look like they are fighting and eternal battle so they have no time for Popeye's or Artic Blast. Please make the characters look appropriate to their class. That said a jacked up Orc Wizard and a chubby female warrior would be cool from time to time.

NaryaDL0re
05-31-2013, 05:12 PM
I also really like the fire "harpy". Nice mixture of elemantal being and female pose.
Also the Pve KS exclusive Necrotic looks sick <3. Both very stylized.

Have to agree on the humans though. The 2 most engaging so far have been Lady Alex and Princess Vic.
Lady Alex is an example of very little to no fanservice, but such a great armor that I love it anyways ^^.

Edit: Chronic madness sums up my picture of any person wanting to mill an opponent q.q

funktion
05-31-2013, 05:33 PM
I feel like a lot of the over the top sexualization we see in fantasy art and even more so in games paints a very negative stereotype of gamer culture. I'm a dude and I find it disrespectful to me as a player, not to mention as someone who respects women.

If I want to go watch porn, I'll go watch porn. If I want to enjoy a game, I want to be able to focus on enjoying the game and not whether there's some mouth breather next to me at the cardshop sweating heavily because he caught a glimpse of some side-boob on my cards.

Go look at the art on league of legends, the art there is so over the top "hey look there's boobs" that it's not even funny anymore.

TLDR; I like games. Yes I also like boobs, and I also like porn, but keep them out of my games. I don't like that it's a large portion of what defines the culture, it's catering to the lowest common denominator and the only reason they overportray female anatomy is that it sells more copies to young guys and basement dwellers. Quality > sales, and this has nothing at all to do with quality.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 05:42 PM
If I want to enjoy a game, I want to be able to focus on enjoying the game and not whether there's some mouth breather next to me at the cardshop sweating heavily because he caught a glimpse of some side-boob on my cards.



Nobody does this

DeusPhasmatis
05-31-2013, 05:56 PM
I'm happy with anything short of porn. I expect most of the stuff to be tame, with the occasional risque item.


A woman in skimpy clothing is a male fantasy. A muscular man in skimpy clothes is STILL a male fantasy.

Being sexually attractive is a power fantasy of both genders.

Niedar
05-31-2013, 06:13 PM
I'm happy with anything short of porn. I expect most of the stuff to be tame, with the occasional risque item.



Being sexually attractive is a power fantasy of both genders.


Not really the point here I think though. While being sexually attractive can and is a fantasy of both genders its the point that in games it is always the male fantasy that is actually used. The objectified sexual female and the strong willed muscular manly man.

3HoursDungeon
05-31-2013, 06:15 PM
I hope this isn't marked as spam: Metric tons. I love sexy MTG/Fantasy/Comic artwork and would love for there to be more in HEX.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 06:15 PM
Not really the point here I think though. While being sexually attractive can and is a fantasy of both genders its the point that in games it is always the male fantasy that is actually used. The objectified sexual female and the strong willed muscular manly man.

How does drawing a picture of a girl in a fantasy world objectify women in real life? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to hear your explanation.

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 06:21 PM
How does drawing a picture of a girl in a fantasy world objectify women in real life? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to hear your explanation.
Because -ism

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 06:22 PM
Because -ism
Like my new signature Tal? Some guy in another thread made it for me.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 06:23 PM
Because -ism

Shrug I had a pretty long conversation with my dad about it and I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Also yes I saw that thread :P listening to the podcast now.

DeusPhasmatis
05-31-2013, 06:27 PM
Not really the point here I think though. While being sexually attractive can and is a fantasy of both genders its the point that in games it is always the male fantasy that is actually used. The objectified sexual female and the strong willed muscular manly man.

The strong willed muscular manly man is a sexual fantasy. Jocks get women for a reason (and it isn't their stimulating conversational skills).

funktion
05-31-2013, 06:31 PM
Nobody does this
"Nobody" is quite the absolute... I've seen it, and not just once. When you play at a card shop that RARELY has less than 100 people playing for FNM (magic) you see a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of that reinforces what I feel like are really negative nerd / gamer stereotypes.

wait sorry Tal, I'm not familiar with the card you're playing. Give me a second to manhandle it with my cheeto-covered fingers before you can say hold on... (this has happened too... with a Jace, The Mind Sculptor of mine no less, 120 dollar card at the time it happened)

... Well I'm glad that's ONE thing that I won't have to experience with Hex.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 06:33 PM
"Nobody" is quite the absolute... I've seen it, and not just once. When you play at a card shop that RARELY has less than 100 people playing for FNM (magic) you see a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of that reinforces what I feel like are really negative nerd / gamer stereotypes.

wait sorry Tal, I'm not familiar with the card you're playing. Give me a second to manhandle it with my cheeto-covered fingers before you can say hold on... (this has happened too... with a Jace, The Mind Sculptor of mine no less, 120 dollar card at the time it happened)

... Well I'm glad that's ONE thing that I won't have to experience with Hex.

slurp slurp gimme dat jace. I'm sorry :(

DeusPhasmatis
05-31-2013, 06:34 PM
... Well I'm glad that's ONE thing that I won't have to experience with Hex.

No, but you will have the unfortunate experience of playing against people who are spanking the monkey. Hopefully you won't be aware of it.

Talreth
05-31-2013, 06:35 PM
No, but you will have the unfortunate experience of playing against people who are spanking the monkey. Hopefully you won't be aware of it.

integrated voice chat plsssssss

also I thought you were referencing a book called Spanking the Monkey that I recently saw (I work in a library) and I was desperately trying to remember what it was about (not what you meant).

funktion
05-31-2013, 06:37 PM
slurp slurp gimme dat jace. I'm sorry :(

I definitely cried on the inside at the time...

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 06:38 PM
integrated voice chat plsssssss

Please no.

I don't want integrated voice-chat for this game...

Talreth
05-31-2013, 06:39 PM
Please no.

I don't want integrated voice-chat for this game...

But...I have a squeaky toy. Don't you want to hear it?

funktion
05-31-2013, 07:15 PM
Please no.

I don't want integrated voice-chat for this game...

But then you're gonna miss out on the random person who's been quiet the whole time all the sudden yelling,
"No MOOOOOOMMMMM!!!! I already did my homewooooorrrrrkkk. Geez leave me alone you gonna make me looooosssseeeee."
"Mom what are you doing, don't unplug it, you're gonna make me loooosssseeee. I'll take trash out in just a secooonnnddd. Make Michael do it, you always make me do it. I hate you."

Gwaer
05-31-2013, 07:25 PM
But then you're gonna miss out on the random person who's been quiet the whole time all the sudden yelling,
"No MOOOOOOMMMMM!!!! I already did my homewooooorrrrrkkk. Geez leave me alone you gonna make me looooosssseeeee."
"Mom what are you doing, don't unplug it, you're gonna make me loooosssseeee. I'll take trash out in just a secooonnnddd. Make Michael do it, you always make me do it. I hate you."
You have a bug in my house? Listening to me? Creeper.

RoyalNightGuard
05-31-2013, 07:38 PM
Nobody does this
Who among us can honestly say they've never had a little too much to drink on game night and things get out of hand.
.
.
.
That Sliver Queen has the voluminous head spines of a temptress.

Tyrfang
05-31-2013, 07:39 PM
5 years from now - UNOFFICIAL HEX NUDE MOD

Also, never google "pokemon for adults".

ForgedSol
05-31-2013, 09:22 PM
I started skimming at the end, but how about people show some examples. I do not want the game to depict females like the worst examples in ShadowEra. https://www.google.com/search?q=shadowera&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CnapUbv2IsnWiwKN14CIBw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=960&bih=456

The image with the woman looking back at us so we see mostly her back, with the camera angled for a better shot of her butt? That's ridiculous. I would not play the game if the art was like that.

Deathmustard
05-31-2013, 09:27 PM
^To be fair she does have the ability distract :)

ShaolinRaven
05-31-2013, 09:36 PM
I think that there are other and more appropriate places to go to get highly sexualized art then a card game that should be for a general audience, because a larger and more diverse player base helps the game. Having people be turned off because of a highly sexualized element is not conducive to building a general player base.

Plus that is a very fine line to walk between tasteful and exploitive, not to mention a legal mess depending on country.

OmarEpps
05-31-2013, 11:33 PM
http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/51812048166/palepinkelephant-stillconfused?utm_medium=email&utm_source=html&utm_campaign=post_photo

DeusPhasmatis
06-01-2013, 12:17 AM
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/634

ForgedSol
06-01-2013, 12:25 AM
TIL Zangief is the sex object counterpart to Cammy.

Taurentipper
06-01-2013, 12:30 AM
I'm curious to the ratio between femail - male players of this game and im going to make a random but logic quess that 70% male 30% female and i bet its actulaly higher than that for males tbh. In that case if the people here want to see female champions being used and stuff then make them slightly 'hot'

In wow or any other MMO the only males who play female chars are because they look nice not because they want to see massive armour and stuff. Give them full body armour and they will play a male tbh.

i say let the artist do what they think is good for fantacy (of witch i think they look great so far) and every1 else keep there moaning to themself. If your not happy play another game / make your own.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 02:00 AM
I think that there are other and more appropriate places to go to get highly sexualized art then a card game that should be for a general audience, because a larger and more diverse player base helps the game. Having people be turned off because of a highly sexualized element is not conducive to building a general player base.

Plus that is a very fine line to walk between tasteful and exploitive, not to mention a legal mess depending on country.


I found this and the other post about keeping porn and games seperate a little confusing.
There are 2 arguments I distilled from your 2 posts.

1. It could alienize a bigger audience. (I believe the opposite to be true. Also its not an argument without theory) So please give reasons on why you think the audience would de and not increase if more sexyness is in the game.

2. funktion seems to prefer seperating sex/games (gives no reason outside of drooling people in real life. Which not only is obviously a hyperbole, but also completely irrelevant in an online game). He also names the "lowest common denominator" without explaining his values and reasons to judge it like that. Trys to state that only young and socially awkward boys can appreciate sex on TCGs ....

Well concerning at least the last point, my humble experience is, that even though I have this lovely
7/10 (scale -10 to 10 ;O) girlfriend and an active social life at university etc...
It somehow doesnt disable me to enjoy the occasional cleavage, short-skirt or sideboob ;O...

@ForgedSol

I dont dislike the Art on ShadowEra tbh. Its so straightforward that it has its own charme.
I would not however want such a style to become anywhere close to "the norm".
What I mean by that is, I wouldnt mind 1/50 female characters to be portrayd in such a ludicrious
sexist way.

Thanisse
06-01-2013, 06:17 AM
as much as possible :P
I personally don't mind ,as long as it fits the card (please don't make all woman knights wear boob plate ... I think we all read the article on how it can kill you)
but I wouldn't mind a seductress be actually seduceing :P

MasterN64
06-01-2013, 06:17 AM
The biggest problem with this whole debate in this thread which i will admit i didnt not read entirely is that people are applying all of these ideas into ink on paper. Nobody is making an actual woman a sexual object in any of these instances and in the end nobody is being directly harmed by them. It is just as many people have pointed out a male FANTASY. As it it doesnt exist and as such there cannot be a direct victim. Anyone to sees images of bikini warriors and dashes out expecting to see them around town or trying to force women into them are morons. If you cant tell fantasy from reality your pretty much hosed. Depriving someone of a fantasy because IT HURTS MY FEELINGS is pretty self centered especially if its not directly harming anyone.

Besides in the long run women and quite often men make themselves sexual objects with the vast multi-billion dollar cosmetic and fashion industry. Complaining about somewhat sexualized art in a card game while you run off to get hot pants and super low cut cleavage spilling dresses is just kinda hypocritical. Lets not even get into the surgery part of the business. And yes i know not all women do that and that most women hate it too but the fact is nothing is different between the two situations except the fact one of these is actually happening with real people.

In the end though fantasy is fantasy and reality is reality. Trying to shove some kind of political correctness BS into one from the other is the epitome of idiocy. If someones feelings are hurt by a little bit of skin and supposedly making an object out of something then deal with it and move on. Especially since your not making an object of anything except ink on paper or in this case pixels on a screen. So when you see a skimpy dressed elf in Hex ask her how she feels about it. Im pretty sure what her response will be since well she doesnt exist. Your average person will be able to differentiate between fantasy and reality and its only the small portion of morons out there that will be an issue. Blame THEM not US.

Fantasy is not reality. If we treated fantasy as reality then anything illegal you think in your head as a fantasy or write down with no actual urge or ability to follow through with can and would be a crime. We would all be in jail for thinking of murdering our boss. We would all be in jail for attempted rape. Fantasy is not reality. If you confuse the two get yourself checked.

But in the end this game is being made in the US. And we in the US have a wonderful thing called the freedom of speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech.) As such it is their right to produce anything that is not libel, slander, obscenity, sedition, copyright violation, or revelation of information that is classified as much as it is yours and mine unless of course your not in the US. Yes i copied that almost directly from the link i gave. Im lazy.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 06:37 AM
Yeah and their right to producing anything they want doesn't mean they have to make their game about male sexual and power fantasies. I am not even going to comment on anything else in that post other than to say it was a fine example of everything that is wrong with the gaming community at large.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 06:41 AM
Yeah and their right to producing anything they want doesn't mean they have to make their game about male sexual and power fantasies. I am not even going to comment on anything else in that post other than to say it was a fine example of everything that is wrong with the gaming community at large.

Lol, a few pictures does not mean that that is what the game is "about."

Keznath
06-01-2013, 06:44 AM
I'm surprised how this subject can have so many posts... is it so important ?

Is it a mean to know how good the game can be ?

It's really a specific anglo-saxon matter....

Talreth
06-01-2013, 06:45 AM
I'm surprised how this subject can have so many posts... is it so important ?

Is it a mean to know how good the game can be ?

It's really a specific anglo-saxon matter....

It has so many posts because it's controversial. It's not about how good the game is or not, it's about whether it's appropriate to have highly sexualized art in the game, because some people feel that that contributes to female objectification.

And to answer your first question, no, it's not important.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 06:49 AM
It has so many posts because it's controversial. It's not about how good the game is or not, it's about whether it's appropriate to have highly sexualized art in the game, because some people feel that that contributes to female objectification.

And to answer your first question, no, it's not important.

I wouldn't say its about no sexualization at all but but what the overall theme is. In cases where it makes sense for the character depicted to be sexualized it is fine, but when you take scenes that have no place being sexualized such as a woman in armor fighting a war and put them in bikini armor then that is when they are being objectified for male sexual fantasy.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 06:58 AM
I found this and the other post about keeping porn and games seperate a little confusing.
There are 2 arguments I distilled from your 2 posts.

1. It could alienize a bigger audience. (I believe the opposite to be true. Also its not an argument without theory) So please give reasons on why you think the audience would de and not increase if more sexyness is in the game.

2. funktion seems to prefer seperating sex/games (gives no reason outside of drooling people in real life. Which not only is obviously a hyperbole, but also completely irrelevant in an online game). He also names the "lowest common denominator" without explaining his values and reasons to judge it like that. Trys to state that only young and socially awkward boys can appreciate sex on TCGs ....

Well concerning at least the last point, my humble experience is, that even though I have this lovely
7/10 (scale -10 to 10 ;O) girlfriend and an active social life at university etc...
It somehow doesnt disable me to enjoy the occasional cleavage, short-skirt or sideboob ;O...

@ForgedSol

I dont dislike the Art on ShadowEra tbh. Its so straightforward that it has its own charme.
I would not however want such a style to become anywhere close to "the norm".
What I mean by that is, I wouldnt mind 1/50 female characters to be portrayd in such a ludicrious
sexist way.

As to your first point about why I think it will alienize people is because the women as objects and being portrayed/drawn as sex objects has been a huge issue lately in gaming and gaming culture. I have a decent sized gaming group and currently we have a pretty decent number of girls at our local gaming bar playing and this does come up a lot, there are plenty of games they won't play for this very reason, because of the over sexualization of women and the community that tends to defend it. Not to mention the topic has been fairly common on a number of gaming news sites and forums. So yes, with highly sexualized art you will have a lot of people that stay away because Hex is "one of those games". People judge games based on art/graphics before gameplay, it is the first encounter most people have with a game, and a highly sexualized game will put off a lot of people.

As to the "but we do it to males too", the arguement with Zangief and Conan in fallacious. They are portrayed that way for male power fantasies not for women to look at.

MasterN64
06-01-2013, 07:00 AM
It has so many posts because it's controversial. It's not about how good the game is or not, it's about whether it's appropriate to have highly sexualized art in the game, because some people feel that that contributes to female objectification.

And to answer your first question, no, it's not important.

And bingo you hit the nail on the head.


Yeah and their right to producing anything they want doesn't mean they have to make their game about male sexual and power fantasies. I am not even going to comment on anything else in that post other than to say it was a fine example of everything that is wrong with the gaming community at large.

Its fun how putting fictional women in a skimpy outfit is oppression. At least im not trying to oppress them into not doing it. It is their right to do so if they choose to and it causes no harm in doing so. If you dont like it do what i do when i see Twilight or people talking about it. Chuckle walk away and ignore it.

Reality is not fantasy. Fantasy is not reality. Opressing the supposed opressors solves nothing and only limits free speech in a negative way. This is what is wrong with the modern feminist movement. Its not about having equality its about FEELINGS. In no way are female cards going to be weaker and in no way are they going to be enslaved by male cards. And even if they were its fantasy. It is not real life. You cant apply real live into fantasy.

Reality is not fantasy. Fantasy is not reality.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 07:02 AM
As to the "but we do it to males too", the arguement with Zangief and Conan in fallacious. They are portrayed that way for male power fantasies not for women to look at.

I keep seeing people say this but I honestly do not believe it at all. Huge buff guys do not make me feel or powerful or etc. Is it a power fantasy of yours? You have no idea why male characters are drawn that way. To me this argument feels like someone came up with a reason to victimize themselves further. I don't know anyone who feels like this, and since anecdotal evidence is all we got unless you link me to a study or something or a poll, then I don't really believe it.

Arbiter
06-01-2013, 07:07 AM
I can guarantee you'd lose people if you changed the art direction. I'd be gone and I doubt I'd be alone. Erotic art would also up the rating of the game, and would likely get it banned in some countries. And the thing is, the people you'd lose would be people that could potentially have stuck around for years. The people you attract, if all they want is some appealing pictures, are unlikely to be around for long.

I remember when Rift brought in wardrobe slots and I was healing a Tank in his new G-String with his offensive name, looking at the world chat which was filled with offensive innuendo, sometimes graphic and prattle, that wasn't there a week ago. I remember the SWTOR update that allowed people to fully kit out their costume pieces and leaving guild because the conversations between people, who were now wearing their Leia slave outfits at every occasion, just sunk too far in the gutter for me. When people are viewing it all the time, it just seems to affect what comes out and is said in the open. So I actively avoid now any MMOs that market themselves in this way; and many of the people that I play with do also. They are not conducive to providing an environment I enjoy playing in.

Let the art fit the subject. Sure, I don't expect barbarians in gowns, but by the same token, I don't want to see female knights with chain bikinis. I've read comic books most of my life so I'm used to unrealistic portrayals of men and women. You can have attractive people in a variety of attire that all makes sense from a cultural point of view. You can have attractive, half naked female barbarian fighters without making the art erotic to boot.

If you want to look at erotic fantasy art while you play, you can open a browser and do so. If you want to talk it, you can start an Erotic RP chat channel and talk your fill without offending anyone, or start/join a guild of like minded individuals. It is just kind of hard for those of us who don't want that to avoid it if it is forced down our throats by a change of art direction, the only option we will have is to leave the game.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 07:14 AM
I keep seeing people say this but I honestly do not believe it at all. Huge buff guys do not make me feel or powerful or etc. Is it a power fantasy of yours? You have no idea why male characters are drawn that way. To me this argument feels like someone came up with a reason to victimize themselves further. I don't know anyone who feels like this, and since anecdotal evidence is all we got unless you link me to a study or something or a poll, then I don't really believe it.

Well for the power fantasy part. Look at the dates Conan was written or the movies came out. Now if we've been saying women are really a minority in gaming/fantasy books, who do you think Conan was written/designed for. Because back when it was coming out women would have been an even smaller percent of the readership. Same thing with Street Fighter, look at the dates, consider that women have been growing as a percentage in the gamer culture AND we are still saying it is male dominated.

Those alone should tell you that they were written and produced for a male audience. No they aren't "every" male's power fantasy, but they do fall into the archetypal male power fantasy models.

If you want links just look up psychology and male power fantasies. If you type in Conan you'll get specific references from everything to "Camera Politica" which is a book about Hollywood politic and enforcing social structures, Freud and Campbell dealing with archetypes, numerous game journalists talking about power fantasies for the debates on games dealing with over sexualization.

And I'm not saying no games should have sexualized characters, but I don't think a "general audience" style game, which is what Hex looks like it is trying to be, should be. I think those games should be advertised as Mature and for an Adult audience and clearly labled as such. Just because games can be sexualized doesn't mean they should be. I just don't think Hex is the proper game for that.

MasterN64
06-01-2013, 07:33 AM
And you both bring up very valid points and arguments and i in fact agree with them. My only issue is people saying that its disrespectful to a certain sex or race or what have you because its showing skin. That is the entirely wrong direction to look at it from. If crypto wanted to do such a thing it is entirely within their right to do so and trying to change that is a step in the wrong direction. Free speech is free speech and there is no valid reason to step in and change any of that in this circumstance since we are talking about fictional characters.

Personally i myself dont want bare breasts and skimpy armor also. Sounds weird coming from the guy that supports peoples decisions on doing so huh? If a certain clothing or lack of clothing fits in a card or a theme than so be it but when it goes past a certain line i cant follow it. I cant stand Dead or Alive. LOOK BOUNCING BREASTS! Its dumb. I will still defend them for making that game and i will defend the rights of anyone voicing their opinions against it as long as they are logical and valid. As soon as something breaks into a OPPRESSION and OBJECTIFYING discussion about a video game it goes far from a logic based discussion and into a FEELING based discussion. Of course thats only when it applies to fantasy and the like. In a real life situation if they force women into skimpy outfits to get a job in that situation its an entirely valid argument.

But as i said before fantasy is not reality. As a huge fan of anime this really hits me close to home since so much of that is basically whats going on here applies directly to that side of fantasy. The anime side is just a little creepier. Middle school cameltoe? No thanks. You go watch that ill find something else.

I will not however rush out to get those shows or manga censored or otherwise removed. Fictional characters do not have rights, feelings, and do not require them. That is my only point in these discussions.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 07:50 AM
And you both bring up very valid points and arguments and i in fact agree with them. My only issue is people saying that its disrespectful to a certain sex or race or what have you because its showing skin. That is the entirely wrong direction to look at it from. If crypto wanted to do such a thing it is entirely within their right to do so and trying to change that is a step in the wrong direction. Free speech is free speech and there is no valid reason to step in and change any of that in this circumstance since we are talking about fictional characters.

Personally i myself dont want bare breasts and skimpy armor also. Sounds weird coming from the guy that supports peoples decisions on doing so huh? If a certain clothing or lack of clothing fits in a card or a theme than so be it but when it goes past a certain line i cant follow it. I cant stand Dead or Alive. LOOK BOUNCING BREASTS! Its dumb. I will still defend them for making that game and i will defend the rights of anyone voicing their opinions against it as long as they are logical and valid. As soon as something breaks into a OPPRESSION and OBJECTIFYING discussion about a video game it goes far from a logic based discussion and into a FEELING based discussion. Of course thats only when it applies to fantasy and the like. In a real life situation if they force women into skimpy outfits to get a job in that situation its an entirely valid argument.

But as i said before fantasy is not reality. As a huge fan of anime this really hits me close to home since so much of that is basically whats going on here applies directly to that side of fantasy. The anime side is just a little creepier. Middle school cameltoe? No thanks. You go watch that ill find something else.

I will not however rush out to get those shows or manga censored or otherwise removed. Fictional characters do not have rights, feelings, and do not require them. That is my only point in these discussions.

It is disrespectful when it happens all the time, or the majority of the time, which is still a big portion of the game developers and game marketing. If it only happened with some games, because that was the point, it would be different. It is getting better, but it is still an issue to be aware of.

Like I said I'm all for games having a highly sexualized art style if that is the purpose of that specific game and its target audience. But it should not be every game, and certainly not Hex if Hex wants to appeal to a wider audience. I'm not even saying card games can't be, If a card game wanted to come out that was highly sexualized and were targeting an adult market, sure. Just doesn't fit with what we've seen with Hex and where the developers are taking the game.

My issue was never "This should never never happen" but it was "This should not happen with Hex specifically". And if the devs decide to take Hex in that direction, then I and many others will probably be leaving, which will be sad considering I KSed it, and if they had had that type of art and direction right off the bat I never wouldn't have backed it. I wouldn't be against it existing, but it would not be a game I would have invested in.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 07:56 AM
Reading along I quickly wanted to refer to one of my earlier posts
since not a lot of people have responded to my proposal.

Why try to deny or hide whole parts of human nature (objectification,
violance, supression, crave for power, desire) to accomodate a bad
design for social conventions.

Some of the most emphatic, caring and social people, are the ones
that every saturday night bondage the shit out of some petite girl that enjoys it.
Because searching for healthy and mutualy beneficial ways to deal with
desires is the mature way to go.
Yet the same person needs to hide this fact in most social groups or at work
because its common convention to condemn him if he doesnt.

What I mean by all that seamingly off topic stuff is:

We need to focus on showing females that we are easily capable of valueing
their entire character given the correct circumstances. And that our objectification
of some chick on a card, doesnt in any way limit our ability to do so.

Gaming will never have a healthy community while half the people try to lie to
themselfes and women, pretending(or worse believing) to detest or stand above
certain sexy material.

We need to make them feel comfortable living and playing beside this superficial art of females.


While I m at this topic:
In my more or less humble opinion, being a very interested and highly reflective person with
over a dozen years of observation and study of the human nature on the internet.
(no this is not supposed to sound omniscient, just a little more educated than your next best "opinion")

THE main reason, why people (men) on the internet are the sorry scumbags that they are.
The reason why twich chats manage to become less mature than conversations between
drug addicts and rapists.
The reason why our community still tends to alienate (Titts or get the fuck out) the opposite gender.

Is exactly the denial I talked about above. ;(

I want to live in a world where I can not only think but say to a women
that her value to me is entirely physical, without hurting her or any conventions.

In the same world her appreciation for me might very well be as superficial,
may it be money, stardome, physique, humor or any other reduction.

Still in the same world me and that women are capable of utter devotion,
complete harmony of interests, high esteem for cognitive and emotional strengths, etc.
Just not with each other, but other people meeting our demands on those fronts.

And that would precisely be the reason why we dont mind being objectified by each other.
Because we understand, that depending on many factors, sometimes the best value
is to focus on very specific attributes in people or stories or games and ignore the rest.
And there is nothing wrong in doing that with another human being.

Everyone in my social group is capable of this respect and freedom. And all of us
couldnt be happier. There is no harm done in clearifying the precise desires, demands,
hopes, speculations, fears, etc to each other and than collectively start looking for the
the highest EV possible for each participant.


TLDR: you will never make men stop objectifying women. (or the other way)
Concealing this wont make symbiotic life easier in the long run.
We need to start dealing with this in a mature and open way to make
everyone as comfortable as possible under these circumstances.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 08:04 AM
Reading along I quickly wanted to refer to one of my earlier posts
since not a lot of people have responded to my proposal.

Why try to deny or hide whole parts of human nature (objectification,
violance, supression, crave for power, desire) to accomodate a bad
design for social conventions.

Some of the most emphatic, caring and social people, are the ones
that every saturday night bondage the shit out of some petite girl that enjoys it.
Because searching for healthy and mutualy beneficial ways to deal with
desires is the mature way to go.
Yet the same person needs to hide this fact in most social groups or at work
because its common convention to condemn him if he doesnt.

What I mean by all that seamingly off topic stuff is:

We need to focus on showing females that we are easily capable of valueing
their entire character given the correct circumstances. And that our objectification
of some chick on a card, doesnt in any way limit our ability to do so.

Gaming will never have a healthy community while half the people try to lie to
themselfes and women, pretending(or worse believing) to detest or stand above
certain sexy material.

We need to make them feel comfortable living and playing beside this superficial art of females.


While I m at this topic:
In my more or less humble opinion, being a very interested and highly reflective person with
over a dozen years of observation and study of the human nature on the internet.
(no this is not supposed to sound omniscient, just a little more educated than your next best "opinion")

THE main reason, why people (man) on the internet are the sorry scumbags that they are.
The reason why twich chats manage to become less mature than conversations between
drug addicts and rapists.
The reason why our community still tends to alienate (Titts or get the fuck out) the opposite gender.

Is exactly the denial I talked about above. ;(

I want to live in a world where I can not only think but say to a women
that her value to me is entirely physical, without hurting her or any conventions.

In the same world her appreciation for me might very well be as superficial,
may it be money, stardome, physique, humor or any other reduction.

Still in the same world me and that women are capable of utter devotion,
complete harmony of interests, high esteem for cognitive and emotional strengths, etc.
Just not with each other, but other people meeting our demands on those fronts.

And that would precisely be the reason why we dont mind being objectified by each other.
Because we understand, that depending on many factors, sometimes the best value
is to focus on very specific attributes in people or stories or games and ignore the rest.
And there is nothing wrong in doing that with another human being.

Everyone in my social group is capable of this respect and freedom. And all of us
couldnt be happier. There is no harm done in clearifying the precise desires, demands,
hopes, speculations, fears, etc to each other and than collectively start looking for the
the highest EV possible for each participant.


TLDR: you will never make man stop objectifying women. (or the other way)
Concealing this wont make symbiotic life easier in the long run.
We need to start dealing with this in a mature and open way to make
everyone as comfortable as possible under these circumstances.

Or, you know, those that want over sexualized art/games, while not having to hide/lie about liking those games can have access to them without making those EVERY game and the more mature/adult games being targeted and marketed to that audience without having every game have sexualized characters and skimpy outfits.

It is not about having all or nothing, but having it not be as pervasive as it is in fantasy art and video games.

Also, you do not speak for every guy and not every guy feels they have to hide stuff or that they want all of their games and art to be "OMG BOOBS", some do, some don't, and some want that, but occasionally instead of the norm. Our game art should not be all or nothing, but where appropriate.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 08:15 AM
(on the subjectivity you mention... well this is what this thread is for isnt it?
A discussion about taste and scope of sexualizition in games...
Your opinion of "appropriate" basically says nothing contructive about that)

I didnt try to speak for everyone, I tried to imply a global and social phenomenon.
I made clear in the same post that everything I named problematic doesnt even
apply to my own circumstances... so I dont know why you want to read that into my words.

Also you say things like "appropriate", well thats basically what can be argued about.

I believe given the right social and emotional circumstances every (few exceptions) human
being can profit from visual stimulation (in an erotic way) inside games,movies,media, etc.

Naturally there are places and times where this defenitly not true. (Operation room, class room, etc)

Also I did NOT(!!!!) say or imply in any way which form,taste,style this art should accomodate to or
if it can be sucessfully generalized at all.


Another thing that starts to make me wonder is our understanding of this "erotic content".
A lot of people have started to talk about "adoult games/marketing" etc...

We are talking about cleavage and poses ... you cant go to the mall, the cinema or on the
internet without seeing about 20 different females in erotic circumstances...

If we were talking about some wired game with casting "dikcs" and resources of "dugs"
with hero powers of "rape" than I would understand your point.
That would indeed be a game for a very targeted audience.

But we are talking about slighty erousing or pleasing visuals....

why. on. earth. would that not be something for the general audience of the world?

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 08:36 AM
Conan and Zangief obviously are for the gay community.

For the record, my girlfriend played WoW for a bit and she was laughing when her troll shaman (that she designed to be sexy) was wearing the low level shorts.
Only ugly women are pissed by sexy art because they feel pushed further away from their first sexual experience.

~

MasterN64
06-01-2013, 09:06 AM
Only ugly women are pissed by sexy art because they feel pushed further away from their first sexual experience.

~

That doesnt make sense since your GF wasnt offended.

zing

Punk
06-01-2013, 10:01 AM
http://memecrunch.com/meme/M4S0/add-sexualisation/image.png


But seriously, I don't care if there is some. It doesn't interest me either way. I REALLY like the art direction they went with for this game. Hopefully some of the artists will sell prints on their respective websites.

DeusPhasmatis
06-01-2013, 10:01 AM
Yeah and their right to producing anything they want doesn't mean they have to make their game about male sexual and power fantasies. I am not even going to comment on anything else in that post other than to say it was a fine example of everything that is wrong with the gaming community at large.

Insulting the poster isn't persuasive (it makes the person defensive and therefor unreceptive to your ideas), it's intellectually dishonest (it avoids reasoned debate in favor of shaming the opponent into abandoning their position), and it's just plain rude.


As to the "but we do it to males too", the arguement with Zangief and Conan in fallacious. They are portrayed that way for male power fantasies not for women to look at.

Male power fantasies are female sex fantasies, and female power fantasies are male sex fantasies. Sexual attractiveness is a desirable trait for both genders, and is a form of power in social interactions.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 10:23 AM
Even my second wall of text attempt failed ;/

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 10:24 AM
Insulting the poster isn't persuasive (it makes the person defensive and therefor unreceptive to your ideas), it's intellectually dishonest (it avoids reasoned debate in favor of shaming the opponent into abandoning their position), and it's just plain rude.



Male power fantasies are female sex fantasies, and female power fantasies are male sex fantasies. Sexual attractiveness is a desirable trait for both genders, and is a form of power in social interactions.

Uhm no, power fantasies are not equal to the opposite gender sex fantasies.

DeusPhasmatis
06-01-2013, 10:28 AM
Uhm no, power fantasies are not equal to the opposite gender sex fantasies.

Because women clearly don't find broad chested, powerful, muscular men attractive. (https://www.google.ca/search?q=romance+novel+cover&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6y6qUcyfHImGrgHcxYG4Ag&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=762)

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 10:31 AM
Because women clearly don't find broad chested, powerful, muscular men attractive. (https://www.google.ca/search?q=romance+novel+cover&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6y6qUcyfHImGrgHcxYG4Ag&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=762)

I never said they didn't. What I said was that a power fantasy does not equal an opposite sexual fantasy. A power fantasy is geared toward the gender it impowers, not the opposite gender.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 10:51 AM
ShaolinRaven...

Thats like saying an apple is geared towards making apple juice, not apple pie.
Its simple rethorics that have no value for this discussion.

If you call a broad chested man super fantasy, than its super fantasy.
If you call a broad chested man sexual fantasy, than its sexual fantasy.

Obviously this depends on whoever created, interpreted, meant or
had any other connection towards the art in question.

For the sake of this discussion the only beneficial fact of that little argument is:
The way men are portrayed in common fantasy can be satisfying for both genders.
And so can the way women are portrayed in common fantasy.

Which brings us full circle to the fact that the treatment of genders via sexualization
inside super fantasy worlds might not be perfectly equal, but not even close to
one sided sexism.

DeusPhasmatis
06-01-2013, 11:04 AM
I never said they didn't. What I said was that a power fantasy does not equal an opposite sexual fantasy. A power fantasy is geared toward the gender it impowers, not the opposite gender.

But "empowering" is subjective. Slut Walk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk) is empowering, but were it portrayed in fictional media it would be dismissed as a "male sex fantasy".

Part of the issue is that differing definitions of sexism end up covering the entire set of female characters (and not having female characters is sexist by exclusion). If you keep women covered up, you're repressing their sexuality; if you let them be sexually expressive, you're turning them into sex objects.

Additionally, many women seem to find male sex fantasies (https://www.google.ca/search?q=cammy+cosplay&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zzSqUdPOKMTQqgGg6oCIBg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=762) empowering (NSFW).

Deathfog
06-01-2013, 11:38 AM
By sexualization what's really meant is pretty, sexy, big breasted, attractive, etc... girls. By not having them, this game like all things would be boring and easily dismissible.

ForgedSol
06-01-2013, 11:46 AM
For the record, I felt powerful playing Zangief.

And anyone can draw any way they want, any company can put out content in any style they want. But I will not play any game with any content just because those people have a right to put that content out. If Shadow Era was the best TCG ever made I would not play it because of what I've seen in the google search of how it appears that many of their females are drawn (some of them look awesome, but looks like plenty cross the my personal line that makes me not want to play it). It would be embarrassing to ever show a majority of people I know that I play that game, and I'm not going to play a game I'm embarrassed about. I'm not the only person that it would drive away and on top of that it would attract a higher percentage of players that I don't want to play with. The First Person Shooter gaming community is a big reason why I don't play multi-player in First Person Shooters.

LexC
06-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Hahaha, you're going to hare the latest update!!!

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Tbh, who really pays attention to the art on TCGs?
I've played like 5 games of Shadow Era and never noticed the girls were half nakid

~

BenRGamer
06-01-2013, 12:35 PM
I'm gonna say this is a less is more thing at best, the less they have is better imo. I don't play this for sexualization, at best it's ignored, and at worst it causes trouble.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 12:48 PM
...why? *gently ask*

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 01:47 PM
I am extremely concerned with how this game will be viewed by the world at large and the gaming community in specific. I am 'investing' heavily in a game that doesn't even truly exist yet and would really like it if the longevity of the game was made as secure as possible. Purely selfish reason, but with the understanding that if I'm able to have extreme amounts of fun, others will be doing the same. Synergistic relationship. I can be selfish and help people at the same time.

For this topic, 'less is more' would be the watchword. Narya has suggested that more sex=more players. I can actually agree with this statement, but only in the very short term. If Hex were to overtly sell sex as part of the card game, people looking for that sort of thing would come in droves. Then what? I argue that they would either a) stay because Crypto would be paying artists to keep putting out new erotic content, or b) move on to the next overtly sexed up game as soon as it came along. Eventually, B would truly be the only answer unless Crypto went full porn. That is my experience about the nature of such relationships. And would these 'erotic enjoyers' be here for the game? I argue that they wouldn't. If the game was their motivation, they would have been involved before the art worked itself that way. Soon, my investment would be wasted, my money lost, my enjoyment gone.

And while those who enjoy such diversions in their entertainment were using Hex, the environment surrounding the game (as suggested by many other posters above) would become toxic to many of those who chose to come to the game for the game's sake. They would leave, and they wouldn't come back. While at first I expect there would be a net increase in players, it wouldn't be long before a net decrease would occur, and I argue that eventually the game would die. As evidence, I suggest that you look at the most successful media franchises available on the market. In movies, for example, PG-13 rated major franchises are significantly more successful than R rated major franchises. Sex sells, but only to a certain point before cultural mores kick in and limit that classic byline.

I am concerned about my investment. I desperately want this game to succeed. I suggest that if that is your goal as well, then raising the sexualization of the cards of THIS game would be disastrous.


Note that up to this point I have not at any time expressed my personal opinion on the desirability of having a more open culture towards the sexualization of art in general and Hex art in particular. I did that for a reason. The merits of the above argument stand on their own, they do not need emotional/value driven statements to validate them. I could be a deep pornography consumer and still make the above argument without hypocrisy. But I guess I just can't leave it there, though I would except for one thing: if Crypto reads these forums and sees those arguing to increase the sexuality of the art in their game without hearing the other side, they might be influenced to do so. I can't have that without at least 'showing my colors' so to speak. As I stated before, I am VERY concerned about my investment in this game.

Unless I read him very incorrectly, Narya suggests that culture would be improved if we increase the 'openness' of our sexuality as expressed in art. I have a very different view of the ideal society. To me, giving in to the base urges of the human body is not 'natural', it is base. I am not an animal. I can be better than that. I can strive for a higher ideal. Just because we can do a thing does not mean that we should. Just because we desire a thing does not make it good. On the contrary, it is the resistance to those base urges that makes us human. It is what allows us to have a culture, a society, a civilization. I speak from a perspective of self-discipline, NOT legal enforcement; my argument is that WE should choose to be this way.

Without limiting ourselves (once again describing self-discipline, NOT governmental influence), anarchy would be the result. Survival of the fittest, caveman mentality, etc. This applies to sex just as completely as violence and other things commonly viewed as crimes. I consider this result to be less than ideal, and I do not believe that you can have it both ways. I put this firmly in the 'can't have your cake and eat it too' family of situations.

Art is not reality as has been mentioned above. It is a reflection of reality though, though often a poor one. We consume media every day, and whether we want to admit it or not, it affects us. There are many studies about the affects of sex and violence in media, but more importantly: I choose not to be associated with media that debases me as a human being. I choose to be better. I hope that by so doing I will eventually be a better man.

Wow, what a wall of text. And your turn Narya :p

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 01:55 PM
K, gimme a sec ;P ... very "intriguing" post. At least it creates a big urge to respon ;O.

I m not worried about my investment in this game.
Not because I didnt pledge much or have too much money,
but because the extent of what I m proposing isnt going to
hugely effect any sales or the longevity of the game.

Never in this thread have I proposed drastic changes or
insane increases that reach highly controversial altitudes.
(therefore I DONT believe what I propose will make more
people come to HEX... I dont believe it will make them go away
either. I belive these nuances are small enough to not effect
a relevant amount of comers/goers)

Obviously some people will feel offended or inclinced to protest
by the smallest of affront, but thats true for everything everywhere.

So the rest of this response will be aimed at the more philosophical
and social aspects mentioned and less about the usual arguments.

Because! I do NOT want or propose changing or challanging
the demographic group that crypto has picked for this game.
I just believe there is room for tendencies.
Most of my pro-arguments can be found in this thread already.




Now back to the good part: <3

I mentioned this earlier, but for any philosphical discussion to have a meaning
the first step required is to reach common ground. And the most important
and neccesary base is the axiom(s) each one bases everything he believes in on.

First a quick explanation of axioms for anyone interested and too lazy to google.
(this does not do the topic justice in its entirety, I suggest studying philosophy)

There is no proven obective truth in the possession of mankind.

Every conclusion we have access to is based on one or more axioms.

An axiom is a fancy word for "believe". Its a "truth" we have to
"presume to be true", because otherwise no logical follow up is possible.

An example for this would be gravity and reality.
A lot of people might argue that the existence of gravity is objectively proven.
That is false, unless you accept a lot of axioms first.
for example: If you doubt that there is any reality or natural law, than no matter
how often your senses and processing tell you that gravity exists, you still
have no actual prove for it, since everything you "experience" could change
at a moments notice.

This can lead to a lot of headaches but lets just keep it at that for the time being.

My most important axiom in life is: I believe happyness is the only thing worth of strife.
This is insanely important because without this there is no point of origin that
enables me to tell "good from bad".
So now that we have orientation in life (achieving the highest possible happyness
per time) everything else we do can be logically concluded given enough information
,time and processing power.

Also because this might prevent many outragous outcries:
1.) you can only have 1(one!!) thing you value highest in life
because otherwise you can find yourself in an unsolvable situation
where you would have to choose between 2 equal options.

The only possible way to go on living therefore is having a singular highest priority.

2.) this does NOT need to lead to = anti-social behavior, shortsightedness, emphatic denial, etc etc the list is looooong. Just because your own happyness is the most important thing in your life does not disable your from symbiosis and synergy. You can be the most selfish person in the world and still be the most beneficial individual for your community.


Now to the actual point (sorry for this long walk on the beach).

1.) you are an animal ^^.
Unless you rely on some axiom including but not limited to: god, souls, etc...
You can argue that you are a highly developed animal with unique properties...
but so are hundreds of other animals around the globe. We do have some
stunning aspects to our nature though ;O

2.) "I can be better than that".
This is why I had to explain the whole axiom point above.
"Better" given my personal paradigm is defined as "leading to more happyness".

The beauty of a coherent philosophical conviction is it reveals
common logical flaws in ourselfs and the society around us.

Its easy to lose track of what everything in life is basically for.
What is important. What generates the most happyness. To glorify things
and take orders or directions from social or cultural conventions without
reflecting appropriately, whether or not they still serve a good purpose.


So: There is no reason to be "better" than animals if it doesnt make us happier.
They dont care about this contest anyway ^^.
There is also no reason to "strive for higher ideals" unless they make us happier.
Or better said "higher ideals" are by definition things that make us happier.
(assuming "higher" means "better" in this context)

You need to justify the purpose of ideals. Explain the benefit of your differentiation
towards animals. Not just make them sound like they are self-serving things.

3.) All the above naturally applies for "self-discipline". I wont argue the possible
benefits of self-discipline. But I will argue making them seem self-serving.
Self-disciplin is worthless, unless this characteristics leads to more happyness.
So again, how, when, where and why does self-disciplin lead to this?
And why is it beneficial to prove our capability of self-disciplin at this exact topic?

4.) I never proposed to not "limit" ourselves. If you read carefully you will find that
I speak of the highest possible symbiosis between humans.

You said it yourself. Just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you should.
Well follow your own logic than. Just because you CAN restrain yourself doesnt
mean you should. Tell me why and when and how its beneficial to use self-restraint.

I propose that it lies in our nature (given enough philosophical and cultural growth)
to form mutually benificial relationships with our environment.
This is proven by millions of examples throughout history.
The main thing changing is how fast, how many different people, cultures, interests
etc we can manage to unify and let peacefully coexist.

Even in anarchie, families existed, relationships, pets, alliances.
All we need to do is evolve to a point, where this mutually beneficial state
reaches the entirety of our species(world?). (still a loooooong way to go btw ^^).


5.) Almost all the usual studies about sex and violence in our media/culture
leave out key aspects of big point of view evolution and myriads of other aspects
inside the same media/cultures manipulating and warping the effect of
sex and violence.

Everyone here knows how fishy and unreliable those studies tend to be.
Or does everyone here believe that playing counterstrike automatically
leads to amok? Has no one heard of beneficial stress reducing effects?

Without considering a big enough picture, our assessment of these
correlations will never be accurate enough to make educated desicions.



TLDR: / Bottomline:

I agree self-discipline is a strength given the correct circumstances, but what are those?
I agree we are in multiple ways amazing compared to most other(!) animals and some of these features enable us to achieve much higher amounts of happyness (not the last being our fantastic consciousness), but being different for the sake of being different is stupid.

BTW:
http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1499?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=&q=&t=card

This is the absolute upper end of what I think is reasonable fanservice.
And yes, such blatant posing would require an appropriate lore context, even for me.

Actually this is a better pic:

http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1472?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=4&q=&t=card

There is just no good reason not to show this cleavage. Its harmless yet benefitial.

Also very nice and not over the top:

http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1421?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=10&q=&t=card

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 01:58 PM
K, gimme a sec ;P ... very "intriguing" post. At least it creates a big urge to respon ;O.

lol. Yeah, well, you did it first! :p

Talreth
06-01-2013, 01:59 PM
Sooo, basically what I have seen is that sexualized females are fine as long as it's not a trend.

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 02:01 PM
Sooo, basically what I have seen is that sexualized females are fine as long as it's not a trend.

Read a bit deeper good sir, I believe you missed something. Or don't. That's a freakin research paper in size. I wouldn't blame you.

Mobieus
06-01-2013, 02:04 PM
I just wanted to say that the thread title having an incorrectly spelt word is really bugging me.
It's spelt "sexualisation". Is nobody else bothered by this? This is what we should be arguing about here folks.


:=/

katkillad
06-01-2013, 02:09 PM
I just wanted to say that the thread title having an incorrectly spelt word is really bugging me.
It's spelt "sexualisation". Is nobody else bothered by this? This is what we should be arguing about here folks.


:=/

It is spelled wrong, but "sexualization" is also acceptable.

Jaysei
06-01-2013, 03:01 PM
This game being hypersexualized directly attacks my investment. Nine out of ten free-to-play games are grindy, hypersexualized junk. Look at that "Scarlet Blade" or whatever the hell that pops up on my sidebars on 99 sites. If I show that to my friends, they're gonna walk away without giving the game a second look.

Fortunately they've chosen a good direction for the art, so I don't think I have to worry. Love all the 14 year old kids looking for porn here though. Guys, just use google if you want porn, I'm sure you can find something.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 03:03 PM
Read a bit deeper good sir, I believe you missed something. Or don't. That's a freakin research paper in size. I wouldn't blame you.

I've read the whole thread. And the basically all of the complaints I've seen against it is like once hyper sexualized females come to represent the game or where the vast majority of female art is very sexualized.

Jaysei
06-01-2013, 03:12 PM
I've read the whole thread. And the basically all of the complaints I've seen against it is like once hyper sexualized females come to represent the game or where the vast majority of female art is very sexualized.

The word "tolerable" is the best one. It's like, it always creeps me out a little but in small amounts it's tolerable. If it works with the card theme, that's fine. Like if you make a succubus card, it can be sexualized (although I'd prefer it if it also showed the soul-sucking aspect, as that makes the card more interesting). Boob plate is evil though (seriously it's just offensive on every level).

I know some people who feel more strongly than me though.

P.S. What I like in a cheesy 80s movie and what I like in a serious game I intend to play lots of, compete in tournaments with, and hopefully introduce to many friends are two different things. I hold them to two different standards. I personally love the ridiculous Conan movies, especially when drunk, but I don't want to spend hundreds of hours watching them.

NaryaDL0re
06-01-2013, 03:16 PM
BTW guys, I cant seem to edit the thread title... wouldve done so long ago.
Maybe I m missing something obvious?
Found it, fixed it. wired.
fml... it just changes the title "inside" the thread oO.

Edit: going to watch some MD House with my GF now, getting laid here in europe. (ups?)
Hoping for some inspiring posts to read tomorrow.

NaryaDL0re
06-02-2013, 03:31 AM
Sorry, hopefully this is the first and last time I "skip" some forum guidelines,
but I d rather not have wasted this entire post, not getting any kind of
contructive response. So one humble bounce? not going to be any more
pretentious and selfserving ones, promise.


K, gimme a sec ;P ... very "intriguing" post. At least it creates a big urge to respon ;O.

I m not worried about my investment in this game.
Not because I didnt pledge much or have too much money,
but because the extent of what I m proposing isnt going to
hugely effect any sales or the longevity of the game.

Never in this thread have I proposed drastic changes or
insane increases that reach highly controversial altitudes.
(therefore I DONT believe what I propose will make more
people come to HEX... I dont believe it will make them go away
either. I belive these nuances are small enough to not effect
a relevant amount of comers/goers)

Obviously some people will feel offended or inclinced to protest
by the smallest of affront, but thats true for everything everywhere.

So the rest of this response will be aimed at the more philosophical
and social aspects mentioned and less about the usual arguments.

Because! I do NOT want or propose changing or challanging
the demographic group that crypto has picked for this game.
I just believe there is room for tendencies.
Most of my pro-arguments can be found in this thread already.




Now back to the good part: <3

I mentioned this earlier, but for any philosphical discussion to have a meaning
the first step required is to reach common ground. And the most important
and neccesary base is the axiom(s) each one bases everything he believes in on.

First a quick explanation of axioms for anyone interested and too lazy to google.
(this does not do the topic justice in its entirety, I suggest studying philosophy)

There is no proven obective truth in the possession of mankind.

Every conclusion we have access to is based on one or more axioms.

An axiom is a fancy word for "believe". Its a "truth" we have to
"presume to be true", because otherwise no logical follow up is possible.

An example for this would be gravity and reality.
A lot of people might argue that the existence of gravity is objectively proven.
That is false, unless you accept a lot of axioms first.
for example: If you doubt that there is any reality or natural law, than no matter
how often your senses and processing tell you that gravity exists, you still
have no actual prove for it, since everything you "experience" could change
at a moments notice.

This can lead to a lot of headaches but lets just keep it at that for the time being.

My most important axiom in life is: I believe happyness is the only thing worth of strife.
This is insanely important because without this there is no point of origin that
enables me to tell "good from bad".
So now that we have orientation in life (achieving the highest possible happyness
per time) everything else we do can be logically concluded given enough information
,time and processing power.

Also because this might prevent many outragous outcries:
1.) you can only have 1(one!!) thing you value highest in life
because otherwise you can find yourself in an unsolvable situation
where you would have to choose between 2 equal options.

The only possible way to go on living therefore is having a singular highest priority.

2.) this does NOT need to lead to = anti-social behavior, shortsightedness, emphatic denial, etc etc the list is looooong. Just because your own happyness is the most important thing in your life does not disable your from symbiosis and synergy. You can be the most selfish person in the world and still be the most beneficial individual for your community.


Now to the actual point (sorry for this long walk on the beach).

1.) you are an animal ^^.
Unless you rely on some axiom including but not limited to: god, souls, etc...
You can argue that you are a highly developed animal with unique properties...
but so are hundreds of other animals around the globe. We do have some
stunning aspects to our nature though ;O

2.) "I can be better than that".
This is why I had to explain the whole axiom point above.
"Better" given my personal paradigm is defined as "leading to more happyness".

The beauty of a coherent philosophical conviction is it reveals
common logical flaws in ourselfs and the society around us.

Its easy to lose track of what everything in life is basically for.
What is important. What generates the most happyness. To glorify things
and take orders or directions from social or cultural conventions without
reflecting appropriately, whether or not they still serve a good purpose.


So: There is no reason to be "better" than animals if it doesnt make us happier.
They dont care about this contest anyway ^^.
There is also no reason to "strive for higher ideals" unless they make us happier.
Or better said "higher ideals" are by definition things that make us happier.
(assuming "higher" means "better" in this context)

You need to justify the purpose of ideals. Explain the benefit of your differentiation
towards animals. Not just make them sound like they are self-serving things.

3.) All the above naturally applies for "self-discipline". I wont argue the possible
benefits of self-discipline. But I will argue making them seem self-serving.
Self-disciplin is worthless, unless this characteristics leads to more happyness.
So again, how, when, where and why does self-disciplin lead to this?
And why is it beneficial to prove our capability of self-disciplin at this exact topic?

4.) I never proposed to not "limit" ourselves. If you read carefully you will find that
I speak of the highest possible symbiosis between humans.

You said it yourself. Just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you should.
Well follow your own logic than. Just because you CAN restrain yourself doesnt
mean you should. Tell me why and when and how its beneficial to use self-restraint.

I propose that it lies in our nature (given enough philosophical and cultural growth)
to form mutually benificial relationships with our environment.
This is proven by millions of examples throughout history.
The main thing changing is how fast, how many different people, cultures, interests
etc we can manage to unify and let peacefully coexist.

Even in anarchie, families existed, relationships, pets, alliances.
All we need to do is evolve to a point, where this mutually beneficial state
reaches the entirety of our species(world?). (still a loooooong way to go btw ^^).


5.) Almost all the usual studies about sex and violence in our media/culture
leave out key aspects of big point of view evolution and myriads of other aspects
inside the same media/cultures manipulating and warping the effect of
sex and violence.

Everyone here knows how fishy and unreliable those studies tend to be.
Or does everyone here believe that playing counterstrike automatically
leads to amok? Has no one heard of beneficial stress reducing effects?

Without considering a big enough picture, our assessment of these
correlations will never be accurate enough to make educated desicions.



TLDR: / Bottomline:

I agree self-discipline is a strength given the correct circumstances, but what are those?
I agree we are in multiple ways amazing compared to most other(!) animals and some of these features enable us to achieve much higher amounts of happyness (not the last being our fantastic consciousness), but being different for the sake of being different is stupid.

BTW:
http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1499?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=&q=&t=card

This is the absolute upper end of what I think is reasonable fanservice.
And yes, such blatant posing would require an appropriate lore context, even for me.
EDIT: I just found out that that card is indeed alternate art for a hero card. Bullseye

Actually this is a better pic:

http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1472?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=4&q=&t=card

There is just no good reason not to show this cleavage. Its harmless yet benefitial.

Also very nice and not over the top:

http://carte.gamescampus.eu/card/1421?ap_max=10&ap_min=0&card_episode=&card_rarity=&group=1&hp_max=30&hp_min=0&p=10&q=&t=card

Korix
06-02-2013, 10:51 AM
Something that can be offered that would again take advantage of the digital nature of the game are art packs that alter art on the cards you already have. Others won't see the art you've bought - they'll see the default. You will get to see whatever you want out of what they offer. After some credit card age verification (or however else), you can get art packs that even contain nudity, and this can go all the way down to the other end of the spectrum where there are packs that replace the more violent art in the game so parents can play with their kids.

I don't know if this has been mentioned already but 15 pages... ouch.

NaryaDL0re
06-02-2013, 10:56 AM
thats an interesting take on Alternative Art. Personal alternative art.
Its already possible in for example MTGO via changing the art in your folders.
No one will see the art except you, since the files on their pc havent changed.

It would be easy to implement this and offer AA for certain cards.
Not talking about designing the entire game with 2-3 sets of Art in mind,...
but for some cards this might be a nice item to have.

Also this is one of the beautiful things that cryptozoic can make money off.
Just put Art-packages in the shop... it rewards more artists and pays crypto off,
and there is basically no harm done, since no one needs to see this art.
(You could still be able to decide via your options, if you want to see alternate art
of opponent or not, maybe requiering an age check?).

I think we might be on track for some real solution that is actually capable of satisfying everyone.

Multiple art styles, appropriatly costed, maybe free choice whether or not you see the art of others?

Sounds lucrative, satisfying, innovative... any more comments?


Just imagine having checkboxes for cards and mutliple art choices...
This adds a LOT of customization and potential loot to the game...
you can unlock loads of art in the game than or buy it in the shop.
And decide for yourself how your favorite cards should look.

This has potential...

Tinuvas
06-02-2013, 03:38 PM
The text that you have entered is too long (13336 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

That was what I got when my fully detailed response was submitted. LOL. Anyway, to save everyone here, I will limit my response to the Hex specific subject as these forums are not where I would like to put my significant efforts and energies anyway.

Holy.Freakin.Cow. I am in heaven. Constructive, reasoned differences of opinion with intelligent responses do my soul good. There is little I enjoy more than a good, non-emotional debate. I think the rest of the forums will hate us :p but here we go!:



Never in this thread have I proposed drastic changes or
insane increases that reach highly controversial altitudes.
(therefore I DONT believe what I propose will make more
people come to HEX... I dont believe it will make them go away
either. I belive these nuances are small enough to not effect
a relevant amount of comers/goers)


OK, there is a choice here. First, make small enough changes that they make no difference. If they make no difference, why make them? If your argument is that the small changes will make the game more enjoyable for you, I suggest that they will make the game less enjoyable for others, thus making a difference. That would be making an adjustment in the game to satisfy a small subset of players while making another subset of players less satisfied. Crypto has marketed this game to a target market, who have responded overwhelmingly to their product. To change the product at this point would risk alienating a part of that market, making my investment in that product less stable. I am not willing to take that risk, even if you are.

In addition, I have looked at the examples you provided at the end of your post, and I contend it is NOT a minor shift in the art, but that is an unverifiable opinion. However, you use words above such as 'I believe' and 'I don't believe' when contenting about how much those changes will affect the game, and my opinion on the matter is at least as valid.

NaryaDL0re
06-02-2013, 03:44 PM
please do me a favor and read this : http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24555

This argument and a possible solution without hurting anyone and benefiting many has been proposed.

Love the fact that you enjoy our debate. You might be one of a few willing to contribute
meaningful to the other thread.

Also, if you ever feel like it email or pm me your other post ;P.

Tinuvas
06-02-2013, 03:50 PM
thats an interesting take on Alternative Art. Personal alternative art.
Its already possible in for example MTGO via changing the art in your folders.
No one will see the art except you, since the files on their pc havent changed.

It would be easy to implement this and offer AA for certain cards.
Not talking about designing the entire game with 2-3 sets of Art in mind,...
but for some cards this might be a nice item to have.

Also this is one of the beautiful things that cryptozoic can make money off.
Just put Art-packages in the shop... it rewards more artists and pays crypto off,
and there is basically no harm done, since no one needs to see this art.
(You could still be able to decide via your options, if you want to see alternate art
of opponent or not, maybe requiering an age check?).

I think we might be on track for some real solution that is actually capable of satisfying everyone.

Multiple art styles, appropriatly costed, maybe free choice whether or not you see the art of others?

Sounds lucrative, satisfying, innovative... any more comments?


Just imagine having checkboxes for cards and mutliple art choices...
This adds a LOT of customization and potential loot to the game...
you can unlock loads of art in the game than or buy it in the shop.
And decide for yourself how your favorite cards should look.

This has potential...

Some reasons I can see this NOT working that would need to be overcome:
First off: what's in it for Crypto? 'It satisfies everyone' isn't a good enough reason when Crypto is paying large sums of money to artists just to get the basic art out. I can see you being able to put your own personal, non-transferrable art on a card, but multiple art sets just makes the game more expensive, something most of us here would like to avoid.

Second, with multiple art sets I can see discussions among the 'more adult' crowd talking about the boobs and backsides while the children are looking at something entirely different and getting a bit confused. To separate the talking groups to avoid this I am afraid would fragment the community, something that over time would lead to disunity and eventually a smaller community, which I would like to avoid. I can't prove any of that, but I have seen it happen in the past. That's actually why I am of the opinion that we shouldn't fragment our draft queue's very much. More fragmentation = less for any one group.

I suggest that we enjoy the art for what it is. Crypto's wild success in the KS shows that they have a target audience that really enjoys what they HAVE. Let's not try to change it to something else to satisfy a small subset of the audience without a dang good reason. It is obvious that what is, works. Let it work.

Tinuvas
06-02-2013, 03:52 PM
please do me a favor and read this : http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24555

This argument and a possible solution without hurting anyone and benefiting many has been proposed.

Love the fact that you enjoy our debate. You might be one of a few willing to contribute
meaningful to the other thread.

Also, if you ever feel like it email or pm me your other post ;P.

I'm behind the times. I'll try to catch up! :) As for the long post, it went away. I cried. Recreating it would take energy I need for other activities. I'll have to chalk it up to what could have been.

NaryaDL0re
06-02-2013, 03:54 PM
Again please read the post http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24555
It addresses all of your points except the fragmentation, which I dont think is a
high impact argument considering all the possible benefits I discuss in the other thread.

Also, I dont expect many "childs" to play this game... nor much communication with
them even if they do.
I dont know which games you play and how your social groups are build, but I rarely
hear from 10-15 year olds being in the same social environment than the 20 or 30+ crowd.

But this still might be one valid concern to the idea as a whole.
Still seeing as you are willing and capable to come up with reasonable
responses I d beg you to read through the other thread and give your
feedback over there <3.

Maybe you will find some time or motivation in the next weeks to recreate it ;P.
just know it would be appreciated.
also know I know how it feels to have that happen... a lot.

ShaolinRaven
06-02-2013, 10:09 PM
Again please read the post http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24555
It addresses all of your points except the fragmentation, which I dont think is a
high impact argument considering all the possible benefits I discuss in the other thread.

Also, I dont expect many "childs" to play this game... nor much communication with
them even if they do.
I dont know which games you play and how your social groups are build, but I rarely
hear from 10-15 year olds being in the same social environment than the 20 or 30+ crowd.

But this still might be one valid concern to the idea as a whole.
Still seeing as you are willing and capable to come up with reasonable
responses I d beg you to read through the other thread and give your
feedback over there <3.

Maybe you will find some time or motivation in the next weeks to recreate it ;P.
just know it would be appreciated.
also know I know how it feels to have that happen... a lot.

There have already been parents on the forum saying they are buying tiers for their kids. Parents that played MtG and other TCGs will most deffinetly be bringing their gamer kids into this game and we already have proof in other threads. Most notably the thread discussing the issue with each account having to have its own credit card.

So there will be kids in Hex because family's will be playing together. Thus another reason to keep the art reasonable in that respect and to keep a more general audience with a varying age group in mind.

funktion
06-02-2013, 11:30 PM
@naryaDLore: I don't think it will decrease the wide audience appeal at all if they include "fanservice" in fact I think it will be more profitable for them even if it's just in the short term (could extend further). Just look at how many throwaway games and especially f2p ones are able to make sales purely on sexualization... it works.

I'm saying on a purely personal level that I don't see why it needs to be in the game. I don't enjoy it, and I'd prefer it not to be there. I don't need to have a reason to it, I can prefer something and that preference be it's own reason.

If it's in extreme moderation it won't bother me, but if it becomes the norm for every female to be wearing chainmail bikinis and dudes to have huge biceps and massive armor... well that's just not practical to me in any sense.

NaryaDL0re
06-03-2013, 02:22 AM
^
1.) I would argue that taste needs to be reasoned but given the nature of these forums
I dont think I will ever have the luxury of e decent conversation about such a depp topic.

2.) all the proposals in my other thread directly address all of your concernc, so please just read it.

3.) parents playing together with their kids does not mean "there will be loads of children running
around in hex and I dont want to alienate them because I talk about different art and confuse
their little cute minds".

4.) this thread should be more or less dead, since no one is motivated enough to give a post
with enough structrue and backbone to it, so we could argue on. People just make the same
arguments that have been negated of earlier pages... thats tireing.