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View Full Version : Auction house ... and why i dont want one



ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 07:22 AM
I know allot of people come to MMO's specifically with experiences with WoW. If you do its second nature to think of an auction house as the method to get goods from other players without screaming on channels all day.
That said it is not the best system out there and since HEX does not need to deal with many of the issues that WoW had to deal with when setting up its virtual market place, HEX should pursue a better model. HEX doesn't have randomly generated stats on items or cards for example.

I really think of the EVE marketplace as the best implementation. I would say its inspired but it is more ripped straight from what is used in real commodity markets. so what would having a full marketplace entail?
Full access to:

Sell orders:
This is what you traditional auction house has as a buy it now option, but its all that it has. and this is good enough, but you can do better.


Buy orders:
This is a order that you put up on a card or item you would like to buy, maybe below the price poeple currently listing are willing to sell it or maybe no one has that chase rare up for selling at the moment and you would like to buy one.


Market trend data:
What was this card worth last week? last month? or maybe just yesterday. Find out before you sell or buy. this prevents people from simply buying all of a given card or resource and then reselling it at a higher price without people knowing.


Last price point:
What did the last unit of this sell for?


Last sell time/date:
When was that?


Margin:
Posting a buy order should not take the full cost of the buy order out of your account, just whatever Cryptozoic deems the margin on that buy order should be.

At a 10% margin,posting a 10 plat buy order would cause you to be down 1 plat now(not to some phantom bank, but just sitting there holding your buy order down) the other 9 would be in your wallet, until someone sells to your buy order, then you loose those and get the card you wanted at the price you wanted. This is super important(it prevents people from placing buy orders on everything without massive capital) but also lets you spread your wallet farther when buying then just


An Exchange:
A way to trade gold and plat for each other using the above systems would be ideal. I am sure both gold and platinum will have plentiful sinks and fountains within the game, by having a way to exchange the two controlled by market forces people will have a way to f2p into the paid community and people in the paid community will be able to buy gold if they want.
This is good for a lot of reasons, chief among those being that you want f2p people getting into your paid community (they are the ones putting in time and building up the community) and you want to keep all the capital from the paid community in game(if you don't sell people gold people will find a way to buy it)




What you loose: The ability to actually auction stuff.
Food for thought.
Edited to ask:
If you don't like this suggestion, what system do you want to see and why?

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 07:25 AM
Didn't read, but the game will have an AH

~

Niedar
06-01-2013, 07:26 AM
So I have been saying this for every new game almost that could potentially have a great market. It really doesn't make sense to have an auction house system when it is so obvious that an EVE market type system is so much better. This game first perfectly into that style of a market also.

To the guy above, maybe you should read.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR_HPZLX6OI - Here is a video example of the EVE market.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 07:28 AM
I know allot of people come to MMO's specifically with experiences with WoW. If you do its second nature to think of an auction house as the method to get goods from other players without screaming on channels all day.
That said it is not the best system out there and since HEX does not need to deal with many of the issues that WoW had to deal with when setting up its virtual market place, HEX should pursue a better model. HEX doesn't have randomly generated stats on items or cards for example.

I really think of the EVE marketplace as the best implementation. I would say its inspired but it is more ripped straight from what is used in real commodity markets. so what would having a full marketplace entail?
Full access to:

Sell orders:
This is what you traditional auction house has as a buy it now option, but its all that it has. and this is good enough, but you can do better.


Buy orders:
This is a order that you put up on a card or item you would like to buy, maybe below the price poeple currently listing are willing to sell it or maybe no one has that chase rare up for selling at the moment and you would like to buy one.


Market trend data:
What was this card worth last week? last month? or maybe just yesterday. Find out before you sell or buy. this prevents people from simply buying all of a given card or resource and then reselling it at a higher price without people knowing.


Last price point:
What did the last unit of this sell for?


Last sell time/date:
When was that?


Margin:
Posting a buy order should not take the full cost of the buy order out of your account, just whatever Cryptozoic deems the margin on that buy order should be.

At a 10% margin,posting a 10 plat buy order would cause you to be down 1 plat now(not to some phantom bank, but just sitting there holding your buy order down) the other 9 would be in your wallet, until someone sells to your buy order, then you loose those and get the card you wanted at the price you wanted. This is super important(it prevents people from placing buy orders on everything without massive capital) but also lets you spread your wallet farther when buying then just


An Exchange:
A way to trade gold and plat for each other using the above systems would be ideal. I am sure both gold and platinum will have plentiful sinks and fountains within the game, by having a way to exchange the two controlled by market forces people will have a way to f2p into the paid community and people in the paid community will be able to buy gold if they want.
This is good for a lot of reasons, chief among those being that you want f2p people getting into your paid community (they are the ones putting in time and building up the community) and you want to keep all the capital from the paid community in game(if you don't sell people gold people will find a way to buy it)




What you loose: The ability to actually auction stuff.
Food for thought.

Most of it looks good, except your gold/plat exchange would kill Hex. If people could just farm gold (which is supposed to be for Pve) and exchange for plat (which is supposed to be for boosters and tourneys), all you would get is a gold cash crowd. People not interested in PvE would be upset that they would have to "farm gold" or to pay more real money for PvP then they would turn to the gold farming crowd. Also on secondary sites if you could buy gold for cheaper in amounts to exchange equal or greater plat then Crypto would not be getting any money off of Plat sales for boosters/tourneys.

It could become a mess that generates no money for Crypto to support the game and makes a lot of people that just want to PvP leave due to the reliance on a gold for plat market.

SomeoneRandom
06-01-2013, 07:28 AM
I suppose they could do this, but honestly it doesn't seem much better and seems like more than is actually needed. I would rather they focus on other things. I actually think the market trend information is a bad thing, there are a group of people that like to play the auction house and it would basically ruin most of how they have fun.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 07:29 AM
So I have been saying this for every new game almost that could potentially have a great market. It really doesn't make sense to have an auction house system when it is so obvious that an EVE market type system is so much better. This game first perfectly into that style of a market also.
I say it often too, but it seems not alot of people get into the eve monetary system. Which makes sense in a way, so I thought maybe detailing it out would present why a Auction house format is terrible compared to a market format.

Stok3d
06-01-2013, 07:30 AM
Margin too high -- Shouldn't be any higher than 5%

Gwaer
06-01-2013, 07:32 AM
I think it sounds much much better than a traditional AH, but we'll have to see what they implement, and trust they put a lot of thought into it.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 07:33 AM
Most of it looks good, except your gold/plat exchange would kill Hex. If people could just farm gold (which is supposed to be for Pve) and exchange for plat (which is supposed to be for boosters and tourneys), all you would get is a gold cash crowd. People not interested in PvE would be upset that they would have to "farm gold" or to pay more real money for PvP then they would turn to the gold farming crowd. Also on secondary sites if you could buy gold for cheaper in amounts to exchange equal or greater plat then Crypto would not be getting any money off of Plat sales for boosters/tourneys.

It could become a mess that generates no money for Crypto to support the game and makes a lot of people that just want to PvP leave due to the reliance on a gold for plat market.
I think you dont understand, all plat HAS to be bough from Cryptozoic(its the only platinum fountain.)

Now if i buy platinum, i Can sell i for whatever i want, including gold. this lets people buy gold with plat but also lets people buy plat with gold. Cryptozoic doesn't loose a cent, in fact platinum is more valuable since it can be turned into other currencies.

edited for spelling

Talreth
06-01-2013, 07:36 AM
This is also the gw2 system right? I thought gw2 worked pretty well. I'd be fine with either. (I do like buy orders).

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 07:44 AM
I think you dont understand, all plat HAS to be bough from Cryptozoic(its the only platinum fountain.)

Now if i buy platinum, i Can sell i for whatever i want, including gold. this lets people buy gold with plat but also lets people buy plat with gold. Cryptozoic doesn't loose a cent, in fact platinum is more valuable since it can be turned into other currencies.

edited for spelling

Crypto will loose a lot because gold farming to undercut what Crypto sells plat for will be a huge demand. Cheap gold inlfux into the system will decrease the value of Plat and people will be able to get enough gold cheaply from either grinding it out or through secondary gold selling sites that they won't buy the Plat from Crypto with anything but Gold. So no real money will be coming through Crypto, certainly not as much as if gold and plat were separate.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 07:46 AM
Watching a video of gw2 system it looks heavily influenced by EVE yes, although EVE has more data available with the past history unless gw2 also has that. In EVE you can also update your buy/sell orders to a new price instead of cancel and relist losing a lot of money and the interface overall seems worse than EVE.

nicosharp
06-01-2013, 07:47 AM
To the OP. Sounds pretty similar to the current marketplace system in guildwars 2. Too bad GW2 did not have a very strong following, and the endgame was kinda meh. Anyways - I like the idea. We need players to control the secondary market, as it is illegal for CZE to have a stake in it. As long as there is a built in AH, regardless of how it functions, it will be better than 3rd party trade.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 07:52 AM
Crypto will loose a lot because gold farming to undercut what Crypto sells plat for will be a huge demand. Cheap gold inlfux into the system will decrease the value of Plat and people will be able to get enough gold cheaply from either grinding it out or through secondary gold selling sites that they won't buy the Plat from Crypto with anything but Gold. So no real money will be coming through Crypto, certainly not as much as if gold and plat were separate.
again, no.
crypto does not sell its platinum on the player market, it sell it in its store.
This i the only way to create platinum. Crypto makes its money on the creation of platinum(not its trade).
platinum is destroyed through use(buying boosters and entering drafts) this makes the supply of platinum scarce and ensures that crypto has a market for it's store.
If you you buy platinum for gold in a exchange(not a store) then you are buying platinum from someone that bought platinum from crypto. or someone who bought from someone who bought from someone who bought from Cryptozoic. Crypto is the only source so they are the only place that can collect real dollars.
no amount of farming will make cryptozoic not be selling to players, since they are the only ones that can make platinum and eventually people will need more because its constantly being destroyed.

edited for spelling

Niedar
06-01-2013, 07:54 AM
This is already possible with the current plan anyways so its not any worse.

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 07:55 AM
Keep in mind that there are NO 2 cards that are the same. While for the most part they are similar, there will be that chase rare that ALSO won the last world championship. While the system detailed above intrigues me and sounds quite a bit better than other systems I've seen (except the gold to plat...as mentioned, that breaks the economics of the game), it will have to account for unique items.

Edit: Read last point about gold to plat above. It raised questions in my mind. Not sure about breaking the economy right now, got to go think about it.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 07:56 AM
This is already possible with the current plan anyways so its not any worse.
all of this is implemented? source?

Niedar
06-01-2013, 07:57 AM
I am talking about the ability to buy platinum with gold through the auction house even if not directly.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 08:00 AM
but a direct exchange with market data would be preferable to a indirect secondary exchange without market data.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 08:02 AM
I am saying any argument against it is invalid because it is already possible so yes I agree.

Punk
06-01-2013, 08:07 AM
I think it sounds much much better than a traditional AH, but we'll have to see what they implement, and trust they put a lot of thought into it.

I haven't seen any aspect of this game that they didn't put a lot of thought into. Since the AH will be community driven, I can only expect that they have a very well thought out setup for this.


This is also the gw2 system right? I thought gw2 worked pretty well. I'd be fine with either. (I do like buy orders).

That is exactly what system he is talking about.

Temig
06-01-2013, 08:11 AM
Keep in mind that there are NO 2 cards that are the same. While for the most part they are similar, there will be that chase rare that ALSO won the last world championship. While the system detailed above intrigues me and sounds quite a bit better than other systems I've seen (except the gold to plat...as mentioned, that breaks the economics of the game), it will have to account for unique items.

Edit: Read last point about gold to plat above. It raised questions in my mind. Not sure about breaking the economy right now, got to go think about it.

At first I was very much in favor of the OP's idea, but unfortunately the quoted post is very relevant and seems to limit us to an AH, though a currency exchange as mentioned would certainly still be great.

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 08:17 AM
I really don't get that thread.

IRL is the same as it is in HEX, there are people that sell (Local stores, Ebay, magickarten, SCG, whatever...).
Then you have friends and forums if you're looking for something else/cheaper.

In HEX there will be :
- AH : for people to list their wares and the associated price
- Channels : for WTTrade and WTBuy

it's simple

~

numtini
06-01-2013, 08:18 AM
I suspect you'll see those kind of price tracking going on with the third party real money market. I think it would be overkill for a game like this.

However, I agree that the "AH" model of in game sales isn't optimal. I actually think EQ2 had the best model I've seen. You just bought and sold with specific prices. It even had a price match so you could match the current market if you wanted. Very easy and simple and functional. No need for AH scanning or any of that business.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 08:21 AM
Unless winning the last tournament changes the card in some respect it is irreverent. The way achievements on cards were presented t looks like they apply to all cards of that type in your collection, and i don't see you being able to trade achievements.
If you complete the pack raptor achievements, you have a special art pack raptor.
your pack raptors are the same. if you get a new one, its achievements will be completed, if you trade it to a person who dosen't have the achievements they will not have a special art pack raptor.
its digital. there are no signed copies.
there is no different between a world tourney card and my card unless the word tourney card is a DIFFERENT CARD.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 08:25 AM
If you win a world championship or something with a deck, each card gets stamped with your name and the championship.

Not sure about smaller tournaments.

You can still have a bid/ask spread like in GW2, just have the ability to click on each lot to see the individual details, and a way to feature out "tournament winners"."

Niedar
06-01-2013, 08:26 AM
That would be a small enough subset to just not allow those cards on the market and it would be fine. You would still be able to trade them.

Qorsair
06-01-2013, 08:33 AM
I like the OP's idea. I'd really prefer to see a market instead of an Auction House. It's much easier to manipulate the economy (cornering the market, controlling supply, etc) with an AH than with a true market.

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 08:44 AM
Unless winning the last tournament changes the card in some respect it is irreverent. The way achievements on cards were presented t looks like they apply to all cards of that type in your collection, and i don't see you being able to trade achievements.
If you complete the pack raptor achievements, you have a special art pack raptor.
your pack raptors are the same. if you get a new one, its achievements will be completed, if you trade it to a person who dosen't have the achievements they will not have a special art pack raptor.
its digital. there are no signed copies.
there is no different between a world tourney card and my card unless the word tourney card is a DIFFERENT CARD.

You are WRONG, so please don't use that affirmative tone.
Each card is unique (achievements, exp, trophies) and retains its double back on trading

~

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 08:47 AM
Well that is interesting and bothersome, but does not diminish the importance of a robust system of trading. Auction houses are fundamentally flawed and i would rather see a marketplace.

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 08:49 AM
Well that is interesting and bothersome, but does not diminish the importance of a robust system of trading. Auction houses are fundamentally flawed and i would rather see a marketplace.

What is flawed in a system that matches IRL for TCGs?
People list what they want to sell (as local stores, ebay, ...)
People have access to a trade channel to trade/request buys

~

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 08:56 AM
Well, in real life you have alot of the things that i asked for. When you go to a store you know what people pay for this card on trading sites, that's market data. If you just have a virtual auction house then I could for example buy all of a card up. and repost them at what i felt the new price point should be. MY profit(and your exploitation) would be the difference between my new price point and what i bought them for.

IF you don't have any market data you know that this is what a given card is selling for and you can buy it at my virtual monopoly price or not. If you do you can see that I'm a jerk and place a buy order under my sell order price, and wait for a reasonable person to happen along.

There are other situation but this one springs to mind.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 09:02 AM
In real life there are one stop shops from one company such as Walmart or Amazon. Ebay has actually fallen out of favor quite a bit. People also don't generally sell products they have bought but instead consume them or hold on to them until they throw it in the garbage. For a trading card game in RL there can be no central exchange like there can be in a digital game and in fact an example where there is a central exchange where people buy and sell is the stock market. The stock market is pretty much the system Shadow describes on steroids.

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 09:03 AM
Recording sales price is a functionality added to an auction house.
So you want an AH with some functionalities? Which is different from NOT wanting an auction house.

To stay on the IRL topic, there are people with 1000s of MtG Dual Lands, Force of Will.
There is even guys who buy like 90% (of the total occurences) of some Judge promos (Polluted Delta, Mutavault).

It's high risk, high reward, let them do.

~

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:12 AM
I haven't really seen any output from Cryptozoic on what the AH will and wont have, If you know of a spot i would love a link.
if you have some guy doing it with one card it dosent hurt anyone... that much. people are still exploited for his profit(that's how monopoly works.)
but as Niedar points out, you have Other options in real life. IF you go to a card store and they say the rare you want($20) to be competitive is $200 you walk away laughing. with only one AH, you don't pay you don't play.
IRL people do this for dual lands and judge promo's because they cant do it for chase rares and competitive cards. online with only one AH you bet they can. ANY card could be exploited this way(and if you did it successfully once you would have the funds to do it forever)

Buy orders are also super convenient for sellers. IF the sel price you want of a card is the price someone is willing to pay for it sell it now! get your money and get back to your day!

Fireblast
06-01-2013, 09:16 AM
That's where you are wrong.

You're assuming 100% of the cards are in the AH, while I think more like 1% will be at any given time.
If someone buys it all hoping to have its value raise, people will start selling it, flooding the market and the original "Monopoly" buyer has a huge quantity of cards on a flooded market : GOOD JOB!

As I said, it's high risk, high reward and should be allowed.

~

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 09:16 AM
Well that is interesting and bothersome, but does not diminish the importance of a robust system of trading. Auction houses are fundamentally flawed and i would rather see a marketplace.

I don't know that I would call ALL AH fundamentally flawed, but I would like to see a solid set of marketplace tools for exchange. I also don't think it would take all that much to build in a place or method for differentiating for unique items, though I think it ought to be a separate place. The vast majority of the market will be in items that aren't unique enough to matter....I think. If a card can be tagged with say, a draft tourney win, there WILL be those who only play with cards that have a trophy on the back etc.

Maybe unique, 'high plat' items can have an AH place to go while the run of the mill marketplace is set up like above?

BossHoss
06-01-2013, 09:18 AM
That's where you are wrong.

You're assuming 100% of the cards are in the AH, while I think more like 1% will be at any given time.
If someone buys it all hoping to have its value raise, people will start selling it, flooding the market and the original "Monopoly" buyer has a huge quantity of cards on a flooded market : GOOD JOB!

As I said, it's high risk, high reward and should be allowed.

~

Ninja`d my exact response... +1

Corpselocker
06-01-2013, 09:19 AM
Economics are not my strong suit, but it would seem that the market will still dictate the AH prices. If one card comes into favor, the price will spike. Those who won't pay the new price will look for something else. If you can't afford beef, go for chicken. Chicken is still wonderful and you could still bludgeon someone to death with one if need be.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:19 AM
except its not without price point data, and buy orders.
if you are selling a rare will you beat the price listed by a lot or a little?
if a little then you are playin to enew higher price createdby the monopolist: GOOD JOB
if alot then he buys your card cheaply and maintains his monopol(possibly with macros): GOOD JOB
while only 1% of al cards will be listed /100%/ of all cards for sale will be listed(excluding shady out of game markets)
I've done it in other games, its not as risky as you make it sound.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:21 AM
Economics are not my strong suit, but it would seem that the market will still dictate the AH prices. If one card comes into favor, the price will spike. Those who won't pay the new price will look for something else. If you can't afford beef, go for chicken. Chicken is still wonderful and you could still bludgeon someone to death with one if need be.

in this economic example there are no substitutes, you get a booster pack or not. there is no chicken, only beef. you eat or starve.

Googolplex
06-01-2013, 09:27 AM
An exchange system (that goes both ways) will never happen, but besides that I agree with you completely, EVE's system is favourable.

Swordmage
06-01-2013, 09:28 AM
The only problem I see with the marketplace in Hex would be that in EVE you had the option of going to another station to find better market prices. Here, we'd probably see botters micromanaging buy/sell orders on a single marketplace to the point that human interaction would be almost impossible.

Shinjica
06-01-2013, 09:29 AM
Auction house is great. It became horrible when bots start buying card and resell then.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:30 AM
That is a possibility but i would rather see the exchange system be possible with the features implamented ratherthen it being impossible and that's that. If there are gunna be botters i would rather they micromanage the buy and sell market, with observable market data than have them maintain virtual monopolies.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:33 AM
I'd rather not see the exchange system. You either buy the plat or farm the gold.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:35 AM
I'm sure there's measures in place to prevent botters from manipulating the system too heavily.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:37 AM
I'd rather not see the exchange system. You either buy the plat or farm the gold.
or buy packs with plat and then sell them for gold?
Cut out the middle man, buy gold from the people who farm it with the plat you paid for. They get to PVP and you get your gold.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:38 AM
The exchange system has to be there, since you can sell all cards on either AH, anyway.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:39 AM
or buy packs with plat and then sell them for gold?
Cut out the middle man, buy gold from the people who farm it with the plat you paid for. They get to PVP and you get your gold.

I don't need gold, gold is free. I can go farm gold whenever I want. I'd rather see people spend money on this game.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 09:40 AM
You just aren't getting it.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 09:40 AM
I don't need gold, gold is free. I can go farm gold whenever I want. I'd rather see people spend money on this game.

You do realize that the only source of Platinum will be from Cryptozoic, either way?
Farm gold all you want, if you buy platinum, someone had to pay for it at some point.

Talreth
06-01-2013, 09:42 AM
You do realize that the only source of Platinum will be from Cryptozoic, either way?
Farm gold all you want, if you buy platinum, someone had to pay for it at some point.

But my way is more exclusive and allows me to look down on those dirty f2p kids.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 09:47 AM
But my way is more exclusive and allows me to look down on those dirty f2p kids.
inclusion good, exclusion bad.

Shinjica
06-01-2013, 10:10 AM
I'm sure there's measures in place to prevent botters from manipulating the system too heavily.

Every game try to stop AH botting but they cannot do nothing against the massive flow of bot.

Temig
06-01-2013, 10:16 AM
If someone wants to buy up all of card x listed for $1.50 and re-list them at $3.00, that's fine. Either there will be a market for them at $3.00, in which case the original seller(s) could have listed them higher in the first place, or there won't be in which case the original seller(s) sold their card(s), the buyer took a risk and ends up having made an investment tying up his or her capital for something they will now have to unload back onto the market if they want/need liquidity.
If there is a market at the higher price, the odds are that more people will be willing to part with them at or near the new price increasing supply until an equilibrium is reached. If there isn't, others looking to sell that pay attention to the market will likely happily list them at the cheaper price and our buyer will either continue to buy these cheaper cards in hopes of a later return, or will have to abandon his or her position.
The system isn't perfect by any means, and there is certainly room for some sense of exploitation. However, most of that exploitation is due to buyer's ignorance of the market rather than shady dealings. There are very few cases where someone will be forced to pay a higher price, but rather people will do so because of lack of knowledge or need for instant gratification.

In the end, an auction house will likely work out just fine. If they add in extended information regarding recent sales/listings to help, that's fine. If not, as with real life, it always pays to do some research before making a purchase.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 10:21 AM
Every game try to stop AH botting but they cannot do nothing against the massive flow of bot.

True, this game might get hit harder by this than others, due to the collectible nature of cards. Maybe they'll go over it in the sunday update on security.

ShadowTycho
06-01-2013, 10:27 AM
In the end, an auction house will likely work out just fine. If they add in extended information regarding recent sales/listings to help, that's fine. If not, as with real life, it always pays to do some research before making a purchase.

And i would rather that all this information be kept track of by cryptozoic(since they have the most reliable access to impartial data) and shared with people in game. I would also like to see and exchange system as opposed to a bid and buyout system. Why do you prefer the bid and buyout system?

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 10:38 AM
Without having read most of the thread, the game needs some sort of player to player economy. Otherwise, there's virtually no way that PvE can contribute to PvP, which is a bad thing. A lot of players will want to do both, and will want the two to help each other, but if you can't farm loot in PvE, offload it to the public for currency, and then use that currency to buy PvP cards, then a lot of players will be forced to but PvE on the backburner while they get their PvP side of things sorted. If that makes sense.

Essentially, if you can't translate PvE loot into (potentially) PvP cards via some sort of economy system (AH, tickets, whatever), players are forced to PvP (or, heaven forbid, simply buy and open boosters without drafting) exclusively for PvP, and don't have the option to play a lot of PvE, and still get some help for PvP. Whereas those who do PvP a lot get a lot of help for PvE through the cards they obtain.

BlindMan
06-01-2013, 02:08 PM
I'm still not understanding why the AH doesn't follow supply and demand, just like this more complex system does. As Temig said, there either is a market for something at a certain price point which will support the supply, or there isn't, and the price will eventually drop.

I traded a lot on the WoW auction house, and I never saw anything to suggest that it was outside the bounds of a market economy. People will always try to game the system, but if the only tools they have are buying and selling, that's a market economy.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 02:09 PM
BlindMan: The smaller the market, the more easily it's manipulated.

BlindMan
06-01-2013, 02:13 PM
BlindMan: The smaller the market, the more easily it's manipulated.

Agreed, but how does the AH system reduce the market size?

katkillad
06-01-2013, 02:17 PM
I'm still not understanding why the AH doesn't follow supply and demand, just like this more complex system does. As Temig said, there either is a market for something at a certain price point which will support the supply, or there isn't, and the price will eventually drop.

I traded a lot on the WoW auction house, and I never saw anything to suggest that it was outside the bounds of a market economy. People will always try to game the system, but if the only tools they have are buying and selling, that's a market economy.

I think it comes down to people who don't have a lot of time want an advantage against people who do have a lot of time. An auction house favors people who are actively using it where as the eve/guildwars 2 market lets people just put up buy/sell orders and let it do it's own thing.

For example, in an auction house if you have a card worth 5 platinum and someone lists it for 1 plat then it's kind of a race as who will get that card first. In the guildwars2 style market there will already be buy orders and whoever offers the most will get the card. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both, but honestly I prefer a good old fashioned auction house.

BlindMan
06-01-2013, 02:22 PM
I can understand a buy order being useful in the situation where no one is actively offering to sell. Staring at an AH with no copies of the card you are selling doesn't give you any pricing information as to what people will pay you.

People racing to grab a card listed below market and reselling it may not be ideal, but it is a source of liquidity in the market. Want to sell something fast? List it for 10% less than market price.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 02:31 PM
There is no better way to introduce liquidity into the market than a buy/sell market order system so that is not a great argument.

Liokae
06-01-2013, 02:33 PM
I know allot of people come to MMO's specifically with experiences with WoW. If you do its second nature to think of an auction house as the method to get goods from other players without screaming on channels all day.
That said it is not the best system out there and since HEX does not need to deal with many of the issues that WoW had to deal with when setting up its virtual market place, HEX should pursue a better model. HEX doesn't have randomly generated stats on items or cards for example.

I really think of the EVE marketplace as the best implementation. I would say its inspired but it is more ripped straight from what is used in real commodity markets. so what would having a full marketplace entail?
Full access to:

Sell orders:
This is what you traditional auction house has as a buy it now option, but its all that it has. and this is good enough, but you can do better.


Buy orders:
This is a order that you put up on a card or item you would like to buy, maybe below the price poeple currently listing are willing to sell it or maybe no one has that chase rare up for selling at the moment and you would like to buy one.


Market trend data:
What was this card worth last week? last month? or maybe just yesterday. Find out before you sell or buy. this prevents people from simply buying all of a given card or resource and then reselling it at a higher price without people knowing.


Last price point:
What did the last unit of this sell for?


Last sell time/date:
When was that?


Margin:
Posting a buy order should not take the full cost of the buy order out of your account, just whatever Cryptozoic deems the margin on that buy order should be.

At a 10% margin,posting a 10 plat buy order would cause you to be down 1 plat now(not to some phantom bank, but just sitting there holding your buy order down) the other 9 would be in your wallet, until someone sells to your buy order, then you loose those and get the card you wanted at the price you wanted. This is super important(it prevents people from placing buy orders on everything without massive capital) but also lets you spread your wallet farther when buying then just


An Exchange:
A way to trade gold and plat for each other using the above systems would be ideal. I am sure both gold and platinum will have plentiful sinks and fountains within the game, by having a way to exchange the two controlled by market forces people will have a way to f2p into the paid community and people in the paid community will be able to buy gold if they want.
This is good for a lot of reasons, chief among those being that you want f2p people getting into your paid community (they are the ones putting in time and building up the community) and you want to keep all the capital from the paid community in game(if you don't sell people gold people will find a way to buy it)




What you loose: The ability to actually auction stuff.
Food for thought.
Edited to ask:
If you don't like this suggestion, what system do you want to see and why?

How in the holy hell can you write this coherently and not know the difference between lose and loose?

BlindMan
06-01-2013, 02:33 PM
There is no better way to introduce liquidity into the market than a buy/sell market order system so that is not a great argument.

I wasn't actually arguing that the AH has more liquidity. I even said "it may not be ideal" in that sentence.

Tinuvas
06-01-2013, 02:49 PM
I can understand a buy order being useful in the situation where no one is actively offering to sell. Staring at an AH with no copies of the card you are selling doesn't give you any pricing information as to what people will pay you.

People racing to grab a card listed below market and reselling it may not be ideal, but it is a source of liquidity in the market. Want to sell something fast? List it for 10% less than market price.

Actually, the more I look at the OP's suggestion, the more I like it. Buy orders have more of a purpose than just for when cards aren't available. If the buyers think that a card is overpriced, they can drop a buy order and tell the sellers so. It will keep people from gaming the market too. If someone buys up all the cheaps and relists them, buy orders can tell newcomers where the price really is.

The suggestion LOOKS complex, and it would be complex to set up, but it has real market evidence showing it's usefulness, and I think in practice it would be quite simple to use.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 03:25 PM
For sure simpler to use than any AH system I have seen. I don't really think its any harder to code than an AH system either

Banquetto
06-01-2013, 03:50 PM
The real challenge is, as several people have pointed out, handling the fact that cards maintain their own unique history, which is not lost upon buying and selling.

Coming up with a UI that is friendly and usable both for buyers who care about such things, and also for people who don't and just want to buy a specific card at the lowest price, will be tough.

As for exchanging gold for plat on the AH/marketplace, it's a no-brainer. If CZE doesn't provide an officially sanctioned way for people to buy and sell gold for "real" currency, they'll do it anyway through a black market. End of story. Just let people trade it and supply and demand will win out (with the result surely being that gold is worth very very very little).

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 03:57 PM
Just think of the unique history of each card as a prize, with the exception of tournament/extended art cards, just bunch them all together.

Trust me, the majority of the market won't care about that sort of thing.

BlindMan
06-01-2013, 03:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that players are free to trade platinum and gold. The only real question is if that will happen on the AH or not.

Kietay
06-01-2013, 03:59 PM
Yes. EVE has the most comprehensive economy of any game and even a heavily cut down version of it has worked decently in GW2. If I have to search through 90 pages of things like the D3 AH again I will go insane.

katkillad
06-01-2013, 04:03 PM
The real challenge is, as several people have pointed out, handling the fact that cards maintain their own unique history, which is not lost upon buying and selling.


This is true. Some people, not really myself, might value a card that has won a major tournament over one that hasn't or maybe would value a non-foil more than a foiled card because they want to level the card themselves. This doesn't really work with buy/sell orders without making things incredibly complicated or outright impossible.

On top of that, I don't like buy/sell orders without some sort of fee involved so people just don't put up a thousand different buy/sell orders. So unless plat was broken down into tenths or hundredths it would be a huge pain and using gold as a fee would probably get people pretty angry since it's pve currency.

Edit: Unless of course you are required to put the money up front, I can't remember if GW2 did this or not.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 04:08 PM
GW2 required you to put all the money upfront for buy orders.

I distinctly remember as I always ran out of gold while trying to put out dozens of buy orders for cheaper stuff to breakdown.


The tournament issue can be solved by adding a symbol like a trophy after the specific lot on the ask list and then maybe a "x#" for the number of times that card has been in a tournament winning deck.

Probably also can filter out non-tournament winners.

Banquetto
06-01-2013, 04:35 PM
This is true. Some people, not really myself, might value a card that has won a major tournament over one that hasn't or maybe would value a non-foil more than a foiled card because they want to level the card themselves.

Actually that's something else I wondered - would a card in "mint" condition (zero progress on any achievements or levelling) be worth more to some players? Because they want to "do it themselves" instead of buying achievements?

Niedar
06-01-2013, 04:45 PM
So yes, you should have to put money up front for the buy orders but as described in the first post this could be a margin based system of say 10% or any other % you want. This would for example mean if you have 10 platinum and you make a buy order for an item for 10 platinum then 1 platinum is taken as a deposit from you and you are left with 9 platinum. When the item is filled, it would deduct the other 9 platinum from your account.


As far as the stupid double back history I don't know. I don't think most people will actually care about that shit and it seems a pretty stupid reason to keep us from using a better market system.

EVE actually has both a market system and an AH system as there is or used to be items that were not able to be sold on the market with buy/sell orders. For example a ship with fitted items can not be sold on the market because it is a unique instance so it is sold on the AH or it can be stripped of fittings and then sold on the market.

Banquetto
06-01-2013, 04:54 PM
So yes, you should have to put money up front for the buy orders but as described in the first post this could be a margin based system of say 10% or any other % you want. This would for example mean if you have 10 platinum and you make a buy order for an item for 10 platinum then 1 platinum is taken as a deposit from you and you are left with 9 platinum. When the item is filled, it would deduct the other 9 platinum from your account.

What happens if you spend the other 9 plat in the meantime? Buy order gets cancelled?

There's a few things to be cautious of here. I remember EVE had some memorable margin trading scams. The main one was that you listed a buy order for a rare and obscure item offering a very high price - but made sure you had no money in your wallet to cover the margin, so if anyone tried to sell it to you, it would fail. Then you spammed local offering to sell said item for a high (but not quite so high) price - far more than it was really worth. Some greedy person would buy it thinking they could instantly flip to the buy order. You got their money, they got stuck with an item they overpaid for that nobody wanted.


As far as the stupid double back history I don't know. I don't think most people will actually care about that shit and it seems a pretty stupid reason to keep us from using a better market system.

Definitely some people will care - it's one of Hex's unique selling points, after all.

I didn't want to suggest it was a reason to keep from a better market system. Just pointing out that dealing with it is probably the biggest challenge to be met in designing the market system. Everything else is a solved problem.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 04:57 PM
Don't do marginal bid requirements, please. Just have the entire bid put in digital escrow somewhere, and you can get it refunded if you remove the bid.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 05:00 PM
What happens if you spend the other 9 plat in the meantime? Buy order gets cancelled?

There's a few things to be cautious of here. I remember EVE had some memorable margin trading scams. The main one was that you listed a buy order for a rare and obscure item offering a very high price - but made sure you had no money in your wallet to cover the margin, so if anyone tried to sell it to you, it would fail. Then you spammed local offering to sell said item for a high (but not quite so high) price - far more than it was really worth. Some greedy person would buy it thinking they could instantly flip to the buy order. You got their money, they got stuck with an item they overpaid for that nobody wanted.

You just described what happens in EVE yes. The order stays in the system but its not fillable so when it tries to be filled it is deleted and the person trying to sell the item is stuck with it unless they try and sell it to another order. It is technically possible to do a check on all your market orders every time your balance changes and invalidate orders if you cant fill them but I am not sure whats the best decision there as its much more limited.

What Tyrfang suggest is certainly a simpler system and less likely for people to be able to scam. I don't mind that either. Simpler can be better at times.

Malicus
06-01-2013, 05:00 PM
I imagine they will allow decimals of platinum so prices and listing costs can be handled in a variety of ways. I like the idea of buy and sell orders but that requires that cards are commodities which persistent crd specific tracking precludes. We now either need 3 commodity positions for each card or one commodity market and one auction house. Either system dilutes the markets which will affect prices.

As far as manipulation goes both methods are susceptible to it, buy orders help maintain monopolies since a person can both undercut the lowest sale order and the highest buy order unless you could only list each commodity once with a switch for buy/sell. Each require the same level of attention to maintain position.

My personal preference would be a blacklist so that it could exclude buy/sell going to people identified as market manipulators, this information could be attached by listing the name of the next buyer/seller to each commodity, if you got a reputation for price gouging you would start getting blocked.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 05:05 PM
I imagine they will allow decimals of platinum so prices and listing costs can be handled in a variety of ways. I like the idea of buy and sell orders but that requires that cards are commodities which persistent crd specific tracking precludes. We now either need 3 commodity positions for each card or one commodity market and one auction house. Either system dilutes the markets which will affect prices.

As far as manipulation goes both methods are susceptible to it, buy orders help maintain monopolies since a person can both undercut the lowest sale order and the highest buy order unless you could only list each commodity once with a switch for buy/sell. Each require the same level of attention to maintain position.

My personal preference would be a blacklist so that it could exclude buy/sell going to people identified as market manipulators, this information could be attached by listing the name of the next buyer/seller to each commodity, if you got a reputation for price gouging you would start getting blocked.

I think having an AH and a market system wouldn't be that bad. The fact is most people wont give two shits about the card history and most card history is boring and has nothing that makes it stand out. If it does actually stand out it should be on an AH as that's what they are built for, uniqueness.

Edit: To clarify I mean most wont care about the cards history before they bought it. I would be more interested in its history for as long as its been in my possession.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 05:07 PM
If bots figured that blacklist out, they'd just use mail to get around it.

Maybe have an increasing delay as you place bids/offers more frequently? Also, maybe include mailing items between users.

Wouldn't really affect the average user.
Normal delay...maybe 5 seconds between orders?
If you make say, 10 orders in any ~90 second period, up it to 30 seconds for the next hour?



I've played other games with market histories. People don't tend to care much. They didn't have tournament history/achievements, or anything like that, though.

Genocidal
06-01-2013, 05:19 PM
I think having an AH and a market system wouldn't be that bad. The fact is most people wont give two shits about the card history and most card history is boring and has nothing that makes it stand out. If it does actually stand out it should be on an AH as that's what they are built for, uniqueness.

Edit: To clarify I mean most wont care about the cards history before they bought it. I would be more interested in its history for as long as its been in my possession.

Your opinion isn't fact. I think you highly underestimate the crowd who will pay a premium for a card that looks different especially if there's effort involved in making it foil/extended art; just because it's something you personally aren't interested in doesn't mean there isn't a market for it -- look at how well vanity items sell in every other game.

Niedar
06-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Looking different and any other history attached to it are two separate things. I agree that different art/foil or w/e, people actually care about. That is why there should be two listings in the market normal card and extended art card.

Genocidal
06-01-2013, 06:16 PM
Extended arts and foils are based on card history.

Tyrfang
06-01-2013, 06:18 PM
You can easily flag Extended Arts and Foils as a separate card...

EntropyBall
06-01-2013, 06:39 PM
If the buyers think that a card is overpriced, they can drop a buy order and tell the sellers so. It will keep people from gaming the market too. If someone buys up all the cheaps and relists them, buy orders can tell newcomers where the price really is.

If buyers think a card is overpriced in an AH system, they just don't buy it, and that tells sellers that it is overpriced.

And there is nothing complex about an AH system. You either just directly buy something that is at a price you find acceptable, you bid what you'd be willing to pay for something, or you don't buy anything. I like the ideas about price histories and stuff, but its a stretch to say that an AH is complicated.

Regardless of whether its an AH or marketplace system though, the uniqueness (achievements/etc) of the cards is going to be an issue. But I'm sure they have ideas for how to handle it.

Skirovik
06-01-2013, 08:37 PM
I really like the Market idea, but as said, the biggest problem is each card is unique due to their history. It's not just a case of "more copper ore".

If they could figure out a good way to use the Market idea, I would be all over it! :D

TheWrathofShane
06-01-2013, 09:01 PM
Lose, not loose.
Sorry, I used to make the same mistake, but all the grammar nazi's corrected me and now I have become a grammar nazi in return.

Hibbert
06-02-2013, 12:29 AM
The market idea would still work with unique cards. Just list your card for whatever higher price you think it's worth. People that just want to fill out a set will ignore your listing since it's more expensive. There could be search tools for finding foil/extended art/badges, and these would lead interested parties to your card.

Buy orders would be a bit trickier, but there could probably at least be an option for the extended art/foil unlocks added without much difficulty. Also some people might end up fulfilling basic buy orders with premium versions of cards. That's sorta a problem, but still not as big as some of the mistakes people end up making in an AH based system.

Kietay
06-02-2013, 12:52 AM
I didn't even consider that they wouldn't use the market system like EVE and GW2 has. This isn't 1999 anymore, there is absolutely no advantage to using the old auction house system.

Temig
06-02-2013, 01:14 AM
I didn't even consider that they wouldn't use the market system like EVE and GW2 has. This isn't 1999 anymore, there is absolutely no advantage to using the old auction house system.

To be fair, in 1999 we only had zone-wide channels for trade, not even auction houses ;)

Kietay
06-02-2013, 01:19 AM
Oh. Sorry! I was just an upside down baby in 1999.

Temig
06-02-2013, 01:24 AM
Oh. Sorry! I was just an upside down baby in 1999.

...and now I feel old. To bring this completely off-topic, I really hate the signs in bars that show the current DOB for being 21 since the year is 1992.

Blowfeld
06-02-2013, 02:30 AM
...and now I feel old. To bring this completely off-topic, I really hate the signs in bars that show the current DOB for being 21 since the year is 1992.

I feel you. If I meet a girl and she tells me that she was born in 1992 my initial thought is that I will have to go to jail if I spend pleasure time with her :D

katkillad
06-02-2013, 08:20 AM
I didn't even consider that they wouldn't use the market system like EVE and GW2 has. This isn't 1999 anymore, there is absolutely no advantage to using the old auction house system.

You are probably in for disappointment then. While it's been fun debating a GW2 style market against a traditional auction house I think it's pretty obvious they are going to use an auction house when you consider the issues brought up. Buy and Sell orders really don't make much sense here given how different each card can be with all of the variance the double back can give a card. Buy and Sell orders work great for commodities and it worked in GW2 because every piece of equipment that was the same didn't have variance in the stats.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 08:23 AM
Market orders with a bid/ask spread are easier, if you have additional filters or sort-by columns.

Example:
Pack Raptor (R) - 1 platinum - Not AA - Not EA - FOIL - Tournament Winner xN - [Actual Cardback link]

Similarly, for bids, you could say MUST BE AA, MUST BE Tournament Winner, and then have a price.

Conversely, you could just wipe all the achievements between trades, except if somethings already unlocked.

Niedar
06-02-2013, 08:32 AM
Yeah, I am not buying that double back bullshit is a reason to go with a traditional AH, alternate art and foil is different and should be entirely separate categories anyways even if there was no double back. Cards are commodities no matter some stupid stats about how much damage they have done in total.

katkillad
06-02-2013, 08:41 AM
You really can't see how this would be much less user friendly than just listing the card and letting the buyer view the back? Also wiping the achievements defeats the purpose of cards having a history to begin with.

Niedar
06-02-2013, 08:48 AM
No I can't see how this is more user friendly because I don't give two shits about the back and the majority of people also wont give two shits about the back.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 08:51 AM
You really can't see how this would be much less user friendly than just listing the card and letting the buyer view the back? Also wiping the achievements defeats the purpose of cards having a history to begin with.

I always considered Card history = Trade history, as in who owned it and when it was traded.

Temig
06-02-2013, 08:54 AM
No I can't see how this is more user friendly because I don't give two shits about the back and the majority of people also wont give two shits about the back.

It's a feature of the cards/game that they've decided to implement and certainly won't ignore simply because a portion of the player base doesn't care about it. The fact is, some portion of players WILL care about it and it may well be a draw to the game for some people, or at least increase the amount they play and increased player activity is good for the game.
Achievement chasers and collectors WILL help the game thrive, so they cannot just be ignored because a portion of the population doesn't care about those aspects.

Niedar
06-02-2013, 08:59 AM
You don't design a major feature of the game such as your marketplace/AH around a minority. I am not saying to eliminate double backs from the game, but there are solutions to keep double backs and also have a marketplace. I have already said I prefer a commodity based marketplace and a AH for things that won't be sold as a commodity. This is done in EVE and it can can even be taken further than a normal AH like EVE does and allow you to package up multiple things in one auction. For example you could assemble and entire deck of cards and then sell the deck on the AH. Or you could package up 4x of every card in an entire set and sell the entire set on AH.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 09:05 AM
I'd prefer not having the option to sell lots of different cards.

Niedar
06-02-2013, 09:08 AM
Yeah, I don't really care about that feature that much it was just an example of what AH are good for and how you can have both systems and that there are ways to still have a marketplace and have double backs.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 09:12 AM
IMO, if you're super concerned about double backs, just use the forums or chat to trade for special editions, or have a separate filter for them...

Kirian
06-02-2013, 09:34 AM
Oh. Sorry! I was just an upside down baby in 1999.

Just when I thought I couldn't feel any older on the internet, someone comes along and breaks the illusion. When MTG came out, I was older than you are now...

On topic: while I agree that a full market that works like and has the information of the stock market would make for a more robust market, I also don't see that as a needed thing. Frankly, if I want to deal with limit orders and margins, I'll go buy and sell actual stocks. It will make things too complex for those who are just looking for a few cards, and only really gives an advantage to high volume traders. Things that sell in volume will end up having something similar to this *anyway* with an auction house, which means the more robust system isn't needed, and rare objects *don't belong on a stock market anyway*.

I do agree there needs to be a direct gold to platinum exchange market, without which it will happen via trading of packs anyway. Just expect gold to be worth almost nothing.

Genocidal
06-02-2013, 11:16 AM
No I can't see how this is more user friendly because I don't give two shits about the back and the majority of people also wont give two shits about the back.
When you use language like this any time someone disagrees with you it's hard to care about whatever point you have.


You don't design a major feature of the game such as your marketplace/AH around a minority. No, you design it so it's easy for everyone to use and find what they want, which includes collectors.

I have already said I prefer a commodity based marketplace and a AH for things that won't be sold as a commodity. This is done in EVE and it can can even be taken further than a normal AH like EVE does and allow you to package up multiple things in one auction.This isn't Eve, and I don't know why you'd think bundling could be done in a buy order system, but not an auction house system? As someone mentioned upthread there are pros and cons to both the auction house and buy order system and I'm sure Cryptozoic had at least some discussion about it before ending up with an auction house style market.

Niedar
06-02-2013, 11:50 AM
Market system is easy for everyone to use, and I don't really care what language I use what I said is fact. The majority of people do not care about the stats on the double back, all they care about is if it is foil or special art.

As far as bundling in a buy order system, please read that again as I never said anything of the sort.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 11:54 AM
I prefer GW2 style market
over WoW style AH
over "private" stores like in Ragnarok Online.

katkillad
06-03-2013, 01:42 AM
Market system is easy for everyone to use, and I don't really care what language I use what I said is fact. The majority of people do not care about the stats on the double back, all they care about is if it is foil or special art.

As far as bundling in a buy order system, please read that again as I never said anything of the sort.

Actually it's not a fact, you are expressing an opinion. An opinion that everyone doesn't agree with.