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Shivdaddy
06-01-2013, 11:35 AM
I keep reading people say the payout is the exact same as MTGO with swiss, 4322, and 8-4.

Has there been any confirmation of this?

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 11:44 AM
We're assuming, because a lot of Hex is based on MTG bits and pieces, and the system that Magic has for drafting, well, works.

Punk
06-01-2013, 11:45 AM
I don't think it is confirmed. Just educated guesses by what formats they said there was going to be.

ShaolinRaven
06-01-2013, 11:47 AM
We don't know exactly what the draft pay outs are going to be just that Swiss will give everyone a prize and that prize size will be based off win ratio, casual will be the top 4, and competitive will be the top 2 players.

Shivdaddy
06-01-2013, 11:57 AM
I dont think its safe to assume they will flat out copy MTGO payouts. As its been shown they can give out "free drafts" I can see that being a prize at some point. I am getting tired of reading guesses as facts, but at this point I guess you can not really expect much more.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 12:07 PM
Essentially, if they go with the 1-pack-per-win system with swiss (which seems like the only fair way to go - they've stated that everyone who gets at least one win gets a prize, and how gipped would you feel if you won 2 matches and only got 1 pack, alongside players who only won once and got 1 pack), this means there will be 12 packs per swiss event. It's not farfetched to say that would set a rough baseline for the other two forms of drafting.

You could then even take it further - for the "top 4 players" prizes to work, the top player has to get at least 4 packs, and the second player has to get at least 3 packs - otherwise, there's no benefit to them playing the riskier single-elimination format over the less-risky swiss format, as they'd get 3 and 2 packs respectively for their amount of wins in swiss. Ditto for third and fourth - if it's not at least 2 packs, then there's no benefit to playing the riskier format over swiss.

This then gets taken further to the "top 2" format, where the top 2 players need at least 5 and 4 packs at least respectively to justify playing the even riskier format over the less risky formats of top 4 and swiss. And typically the top prize would have to be a fair chunk bigger than top prize in the 4-3-2-2 to actually be enticing enough for players to go towards it.

So really, even though it's an assumption, it's a pretty educated guess.

Corpselocker
06-01-2013, 12:09 PM
I know I read it from the CZ staff, but can't find it. They mentioned Swiss (one pack per win), a mid variant, and an 8-4.

Punk
06-01-2013, 12:17 PM
I know I read it from the CZ staff, but can't find it. They mentioned Swiss (one pack per win), a mid variant, and an 8-4.

Yep, I believe this information was referenced in the Kickstarter video that has Alex Charsky as the guest.

Showsni
06-01-2013, 12:17 PM
If everyone who's playing throws in $1 entry fee, that leaves $8 to go to prizes, so four boosters? Heh, I guess that would be impossible if everyone who wins at least once gets a prize in Swiss.

jaxsonbateman
06-01-2013, 12:34 PM
If everyone who's playing throws in $1 entry fee, that leaves $8 to go to prizes, so four boosters? Heh, I guess that would be impossible if everyone who wins at least once gets a prize in Swiss.
Prizes don't need to be proportionate to the entry fee. They can afford to make the 'effective cost of buying a booster this way' cheaper, in order to draw people in. In swiss, only one person wins enough boosters to not need to buy any to enter the next draft. In 4-3-2-2, only 2 people do, with half the players needing to buy all 3 boosters. In 8-4, 6 people need to buy all 3 boosters to enter the next draft.

Essentially, the prize system is rewarding enough to encourage people to keep playing (and thus spending money), but not so high that single high placings will carry you for more than two drafts (if you top place an 8-4).

funktion
06-01-2013, 09:24 PM
Thought that I saw somewhere it's going to be 5-3-2-2. Never understood why that que was purposefully less EV.

Genocidal
06-01-2013, 09:28 PM
Eh, it makes sense to me. You take out some of the risk by having a higher chance of winning a prize, so the reward should be lower.

Mr.Funsocks
06-01-2013, 09:43 PM
Prizes don't need to be proportionate to the entry fee. They can afford to make the 'effective cost of buying a booster this way' cheaper, in order to draw people in.

They also seem perfectly fine with being generous to players, as really, the cards don't cost them anything. Obviously they need people to be buying cards to pay the bills, but if each player in a tournament has already bought 3 packs AND paid a buck for the tournament fee, and most of the players walk away with nothing/not enough for the next tournament, it's not a bad deal. Though I would doubt that they'd ever go above the 21 packs that were bought for the tournament as a giveaway.

alpha5099
06-01-2013, 09:47 PM
As someone new to draft (and most TCG terminology in general, Google and the MTG Salvation Wiki have been quite helpful in figuring out what everyone's talking about), could someone explain how payouts generally work?

Banquetto
06-02-2013, 12:08 AM
Eh, it makes sense to me. You take out some of the risk by having a higher chance of winning a prize, so the reward should be lower.

But the one pack per win Swiss model has 12 packs given out, the same as 8-4. Why would 4-3-2-2 be a red-headed stepchild in the middle?

NastyNate
06-02-2013, 12:22 AM
Essentially, if they go with the 1-pack-per-win system with swiss (which seems like the only fair way to go - they've stated that everyone who gets at least one win gets a prize, and how gipped would you feel if you won 2 matches and only got 1 pack, alongside players who only won once and got 1 pack), this means there will be 12 packs per swiss event. It's not farfetched to say that would set a rough baseline for the other two forms of drafting.

You could then even take it further - for the "top 4 players" prizes to work, the top player has to get at least 4 packs, and the second player has to get at least 3 packs - otherwise, there's no benefit to them playing the riskier single-elimination format over the less-risky swiss format, as they'd get 3 and 2 packs respectively for their amount of wins in swiss. Ditto for third and fourth - if it's not at least 2 packs, then there's no benefit to playing the riskier format over swiss.

This then gets taken further to the "top 2" format, where the top 2 players need at least 5 and 4 packs at least respectively to justify playing the even riskier format over the less risky formats of top 4 and swiss. And typically the top prize would have to be a fair chunk bigger than top prize in the 4-3-2-2 to actually be enticing enough for players to go towards it.

So really, even though it's an assumption, it's a pretty educated guess.

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't the increased chance of earning a primal pack offset the risk associated with an 8-4 format (assuming you place first)?

Genocidal
06-02-2013, 12:32 AM
But the one pack per win Swiss model has 12 packs given out, the same as 8-4. Why would 4-3-2-2 be a red-headed stepchild in the middle?

There's no easy/visibly fair way to differentiate between all the people who won one match in a Swiss though, and the top finisher only gets 3 packs. So from the individual perspective, the reward is lower in Swiss.

Banquetto
06-02-2013, 12:42 AM
There's no easy/visibly fair way to differentiate between all the people who won one match in a Swiss though, and the top finisher only gets 3 packs. So from the individual perspective, the reward is lower in Swiss.

I don't understand.

You say it's reasonable that 4-3-2-2 gives out one less pack than 8-4 because "you take out some of the risk by having a higher chance of winning a prize, so the reward should be lower".

But Swiss takes out even more of the risk by having an even higher chance of winning a prize.. but the reward isn't lower there. It pays out 12 packs, same as 8-4.

Or were you not talking about total payout? Just the #1 placing player's payout?

Hollywood
06-02-2013, 12:53 AM
As someone new to draft (and most TCG terminology in general, Google and the MTG Salvation Wiki have been quite helpful in figuring out what everyone's talking about), could someone explain how payouts generally work?

In drafts you have a queue/table of 8 players. You have to play 3 rounds to determine an undefeated player. At the end of those 3 rounds there will be 1 3-0 player, 3 2-1's, 3 1-2's, and 1 0-3 player in a Swiss draft.

An 8-4 draft means that it is single elimination, so if you lose a match you're done and the undefeated player of the draft gets 8 booster packs and the player they beat in the last round gets 2nd place and 4 boosters.

A 4/5-3-2-2 draft is also single elimination but instead of having to win two rounds to get prize packs, you only have to win your first round and the 2 players who lose in the second round still get 2 packs while first and second get 4/5 and 3. Slightly greater odds of getting some sort of prize but not as high potential for maxing out the rewards for winning as an 8/4.

Hope that helps.

lucedes
06-02-2013, 01:04 AM
the reason they can really afford to give out 12 packs on an $8 entry fee is because the only source of platinum is real dollars.

$8 profit every time a draft fires, even if all the packs were free.
(which they aren't; they've been generated through direct purchase [$2/pack] draft prizes [66c/pack] and kickstarter [??/pack])

so their profit per draft is roughly $8 + (24 x Pack Price) >= $32

Kroan
06-02-2013, 01:14 AM
As a minor note. MTGO used to have 5-3-2-2, but they removed the pack because less people were joining the 8-4. A dick-move if you ask me. If they want to make 8-4 more popular they should've increased said payout. It's basically the same thing with 4-pack sealed. They removed it and then brought it back with an entry fee but didn't increase the payout accordingly.

I think Cryptozoic has to be aware by now that TCG players are min/max'ers and care a lot about EV (see kickstarter). So if they want a certain type played they have to make sure it has good EV compared to the rest.

Keznath
06-02-2013, 02:29 AM
They should take care to not reward players with too many cards...

I mean, the winner of US open or Wimbledon is not rewarded with dozens of rackets and balls....

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 10:43 AM
They should take care to not reward players with too many cards...

I mean, the winner of US open or Wimbledon is not rewarded with dozens of rackets and balls....

No, s/he's probably already got a lifetime supply of balls and rackets from sponsors.