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tgm0112
06-02-2013, 05:08 AM
I'm a relative novice to the TCG scene and only ever drafted with the same group of friends. With all this talk of Swiss and 8-4's, I'm starting to realize that we may have been doing things our own way. I tried to look things up online, but a lot of pages come with graphs of payout expectations and other stats. While enlightening, things could stand to be spelled out more.

Here's what we would do. As far as I can tell, the deck-making was standard. (Three packs, open one at a time, grab a card, pass to adjacent player, rinse and repeat.) However, we would play best of three elimination to determine victors (placement determined by drawing mana cards) and tie breakers outside of the brackets whenever necessary (you played among others knocked out at your tier to determine rank). When all was said and done, there was an unambiguous hierarchy and we laid out all the rare+ cards on a table. First place got first pick and so on, leaving everyone with the same amount of cards (usually), but undeniably rewarding the victors.

Is what we did just a case of esoteric house rules? What is the standard method of reward and elimination?



EDIT: While I've come to understand there's not really a "standard" method for drafting, a breakdown of the most common ones would be appreciated, either here or with a link provided.

Lochar
06-02-2013, 05:12 AM
Very wierd house rules, yes. Normally you keep the cards you drafted and then the top X players (depending on game type) got additional boosters.

Your way works reasonably well when there's no additional boosters for draft winners.

nicosharp
06-02-2013, 05:15 AM
That is not standard.
When you draft, at least on MTG:O - which this game seems to be modelling a lot of its PVP around - Players keep all the cards they pick.
The prizes are typically only additional packs, and a token or point for entry into monthly/quarterly/annual tournaments if you win.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 05:20 AM
His method has some good points though, there is no rare drafting in it. All of them draft first to win, and then they all rare draft. It could be an interesting method to explore for player-made tourneys. You could also add some booster as reward on top of them. Something like this. 1$ entry free. 3 packs first place 1 pack second place (or a similar rate)

tgm0112
06-02-2013, 05:22 AM
Forgive me if I misunderstand, but the method you guys are suggesting might motivate people to draft suboptimal rares simply because people want to keep them instead of actually make the best draft deck possible.

Also, I didn't realize more packs come into the mix. How many does one win, normally?

Lochar
06-02-2013, 05:23 AM
You at least be assured that everyone there would be there to play. No rare draft and dodge.

McKahlan
06-02-2013, 05:23 AM
It's called rare redraft and it's not that uncommon to encounter.
To discourage people to draft money rare instead of drafting a playable deck, some LGS prefer to propose a redraft at the end. This is making drafting money rare useless and enhancing the interest of the draft.
There are pros and cons about that, personnaly, I'd rather keep the cards I pulled. "Should I draft this awesome money card or just pick this meh, although perfectly playable for my deck, uncommon. That's part of the fun :)

MasterN64
06-02-2013, 05:24 AM
Biggest problem with this setup is it requires everyone to hang around till the games are all over. This isnt a valid situation in an online game where a draft can take a couple hours

Indormi
06-02-2013, 05:27 AM
Forgive me if I misunderstand, but the method you guys are suggesting might motivate people to draft suboptimal rares simply because people want to keep them instead of actually make the best draft deck possible.

Also, I didn't realize more packs come into the mix. How many does one win, normally?

Depending of the type of draft but 11-12 extra boosters.

8 packs 1st place 4 packs 2nd place is the high risk high reward type for example.

tgm0112
06-02-2013, 05:27 AM
I don't see the fun if, for instance, I'm opening my third pack and have commited to a Ruby-Diamond deck only to find a really good Sapphire rare. In "redraft", passing it over is more a risk of someone else getting it for their deck. Taking it because I want it harms my chances at winning overall. Moreover, given a large trading player base, it would become almost unheard of to pass up any rare while drafting. Less nuance and strategy, it seems to me.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 05:46 AM
I don't see the fun if, for instance, I'm opening my third pack and have commited to a Ruby-Diamond deck only to find a really good Sapphire rare. In "redraft", passing it over is more a risk of someone else getting it for their deck. Taking it because I want it harms my chances at winning overall. Moreover, given a large trading player base, it would become almost unheard of to pass up any rare while drafting. Less nuance and strategy, it seems to me.

The thing is, I pick the rare, thus decreasing my chances to win or I pick this uncommon that fits my deck and try to win the extra boosters packs?

Also remember that not all cards you draft, you use them in a deck. If you need one specific card for whatever reason and none of the other cards is really good for your deck, you can pick it fine.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 06:19 AM
Sorry for double post

Arbiter
06-02-2013, 06:57 AM
Biggest problem with this setup is it requires everyone to hang around till the games are all over. This isnt a valid situation in an online game where a draft can take a couple hours

No, it could be easily done. After your final match (whether through elimination or tournament end), the computer pops up the 24 rares in the draft and you rank them in the order that you want. When the tournament is over the rares are distributed automatically, the player finishing first gets his top pick, second gets his/her top pick from the remaining cards, etc - until all the cards are allocated.

Needs a way to break ties (whether through opponent's performance or life total at the end of games) and a way to distribute on DC, but it would be totally doable in an online TCG.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 07:01 AM
No, it could be easily done. After your final match (whether through elimination or tournament end), the computer pops up the 24 rares in the draft and you rank them in the order that you want. When the tournament is over the rares are distributed automatically, the player finishing first gets his top pick, second gets his/her top pick from the remaining cards, etc - until all the cards are allocated.

Needs a way to break ties (whether through opponent's performance or life total at the end of games) and a way to distribute on DC, but it would be totally doable in an online TCG.
There is an small issue with this, in general, that you dont get any cards until the tournament is finished, if you get kicked out on your first game you may need to wait 2 more hours to get your cards. You could order them when you lose and then automatically give them to you when the tournament finishes, still you need to wait a couple of hours.

Kroan
06-02-2013, 07:14 AM
Not rarepicking is most of the time more suited for better players. Newer players often enjoy keeping what they open :) It also makes dropping from an event way easier :D

tgm0112
06-02-2013, 07:45 AM
No, it could be easily done. After your final match (whether through elimination or tournament end), the computer pops up the 24 rares in the draft and you rank them in the order that you want. When the tournament is over the rares are distributed automatically, the player finishing first gets his top pick, second gets his/her top pick from the remaining cards, etc - until all the cards are allocated.

Needs a way to break ties (whether through opponent's performance or life total at the end of games) and a way to distribute on DC, but it would be totally doable in an online TCG.

I hadn't thought of this. I really like it!

@Indormi: Waiting a couple of hours is nothing in a game like this. Even if you drop out immediately, call it a fee for not just opening boosters instead of draft and drop.

Facilier
06-02-2013, 07:58 AM
We run a draft after work in the office, and we went through a lengthy discussion as to whether we prefer running the raredraft at the end, after trying it both ways.

The majority preferred to keep what they draft - you get attached to a card after playing with it for the evening, and it gives the players direct control over what they want to walk away from, so if they want to grab that rare instead of building a stronger deck, that's their choice. Running the rare draft at the end the same 3 players from our group of 12 or so would grab the chase rares every week, and it leaves the weaker players feeling that they can't have nice things.

This situation gets more or less pronounced depending on how even the power level is in the set, but overall further punishes less experienced players, and those are required to keep the game healthy.

I don't see why everyone is so scared of somebody cherry picking rares... you always get the choice to keep the rare in your pack. If you prefer to chase after the potential of greater spoils from the prizes, feel free to make the choice. More choices = better in my opinion.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 08:01 AM
@tgm0112 It may be nothing for some people, but to others It will most likely an issue. I personally think your method of playing can be used to improve some draft modes, but you need to assess all the pros and cons to have an educated guess if it is going to be made an "official" game mode.

In general you may think an idea is great, but when you are a company you need to think about all the consequences, and act accordingly. Also, If you get knock out first round and you join another tournament/draft you may need to adjust your picks based on the cards that you already have . Dunno I'm explainning myself correctly.

Hollywood
06-02-2013, 08:17 AM
First off, welcome to the greatest way to play cards; drafting.

As has been said already, the way you guys are drafting is not unheard of but it isn't the standard. It can lead to bad tastes in the mouth for someone who opens that chase rare they've been trying to get and then loses the chance to pick it due to losing by a bad mulligan, mana screw, etc. By letting everyone keep what you draft there is no bad taste, just a simple choice as to whether one's deck will still be strong enough to win if a weaker or even unplayable card is chosen. In most cases, if the prizes are large enough most solid players won't rare draft anyways.

While I don't believe that they will be pertinent to Hex you should also check out Cube drafting and Rochester drafting for a fun alternative to switch things up every now and then also.

Indormi
06-02-2013, 08:20 AM
First off, welcome to the greatest way to play cards; drafting.

As has been said already, the way you guys are drafting is not unheard of but it isn't the standard. It can lead to bad tastes in the mouth for someone who opens that chase rare they've been trying to get and then loses the chance to pick it due to losing by a bad mulligan, mana screw, etc. By letting everyone keep what you draft there is no bad taste, just a simple choice as to whether one's deck will still be strong enough to win if a weaker or even unplayable card is chosen. In most cases, if the prizes are large enough most solid players won't rare draft anyways.

While I don't believe that they will be pertinent to Hex you should also check out Cube drafting and Rochester drafting for a fun alternative to switch things up every now and then also.

I'm thinking this method and other method of drafting, may be really fun in player-managed tournaments. And you are right about the mulligan or mana screw, I hadn't thought about that. Losing a good rare you drafted to that sucks for sure.

shanDz
06-02-2013, 08:32 AM
We used to have local MTG tournaments with that format. It didn't count towards ratings though, and I think it was to get around rare drafting.

Punk
06-02-2013, 08:39 AM
I'm a relative novice to the TCG scene and only ever drafted with the same group of friends. With all this talk of Swiss and 8-4's, I'm starting to realize that we may have been doing things our own way. I tried to look things up online, but a lot of pages come with graphs of payout expectations and other stats. While enlightening, things could stand to be spelled out more.

Here's what we would do. As far as I can tell, the deck-making was standard. (Three packs, open one at a time, grab a card, pass to adjacent player, rinse and repeat.) However, we would play best of three elimination to determine victors (placement determined by drawing mana cards) and tie breakers outside of the brackets whenever necessary (you played among others knocked out at your tier to determine rank). When all was said and done, there was an unambiguous hierarchy and we laid out all the rare+ cards on a table. First place got first pick and so on, leaving everyone with the same amount of cards (usually), but undeniably rewarding the victors.

Is what we did just a case of esoteric house rules? What is the standard method of reward and elimination?



EDIT: While I've come to understand there's not really a "standard" method for drafting, a breakdown of the most common ones would be appreciated, either here or with a link provided.

Draft Punk? Sounds like I know what name to reserve now.

There was a card shop local to me that had their tournament prize structure setup similar to this. At the end of the draft, every participant would have to put all of the rares and foils opened in the middle table. Whoever won the tournament would get the first two picks out of all the valuable cards opened. Second place would take their two picks, so on and so forth.

I feel this prevents someone from solely going into a tournament to rare draft. Trust me, I don't rare draft. I fluctuate right around a 2000 limited rating on MTGO (even though your rating is pointless), and try to take each draft I am in seriously.. but the temptation between a $5 card or a card that is beneficial to the deck you are drafting is an element of drafting that I want to keep as part of the format. The picks for these $3-5 cards are usually very high, between picks 1 and 5, and that is also the picks where you get the most value in cards for your deck. If you want to sacrifice 2-4 valuable picks to pay for the tournament, go right ahead. I want that option to be there for players at my table. That just means my deck will be potentially 2-4 "high value" cards better than yours when I face you.

I can understand point of views for both sides of this argument. My roommate also has right around a 2000 limited rating on MTGO and he has the exact opposite standpoint than I do. He would like it so that no one rare drafts at his tournaments and everyone is there to play. He does not want this temptation to be an aspect of drafting in his eyes. I see this as enforcing assistance to players while drafting.

In conclusion, I feel only when you stop seeing cards as a dollar value and only see them as a power level, you have overcome this temptation. If you are at a draft with me, I want you to make any decision possible to give me an advantage.

Hexmage
06-02-2013, 08:55 AM
A problem I encountered with redrafting at the end is that the weaker players almost never get any of the valuable cards. In a normal draft a weaker player can get a valuable card as a first pick or get it passed, in a redraft he will almost always lose it to another player who is better at the game. Now you can say this promotes learning to play better, but after not getting anything valuable for the Nth time some people will just quit.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 11:26 AM
This also brings up another point. Say you open your third pack, and there's a chase rare of a color you aren't picking. Good price, strong card, but you can't play it in your deck, yet there's another playable card for you in the pack.

Sure, you can always just go for the playable card, but grabbing that rare has another name- Hate drafting. You grab the strong card to eliminate the chance of someone playing it against you. While it does not directly strengthen your deck, it does weaken the person who would have picked it. At this point it comes down to whether you've picked enough strong cards for your deck already though.

Punk
06-02-2013, 12:00 PM
This also brings up another point. Say you open your third pack, and there's a chase rare of a color you aren't picking. Good price, strong card, but you can't play it in your deck, yet there's another playable card for you in the pack.

Sure, you can always just go for the playable card, but grabbing that rare has another name- Hate drafting. You grab the strong card to eliminate the chance of someone playing it against you. While it does not directly strengthen your deck, it does weaken the person who would have picked it. At this point it comes down to whether you've picked enough strong cards for your deck already though.

Hate drafting is not the same as Rare Drafting.. even though when you Hate a card during the draft for good intentions, it is usually a rare.

Hate drafting is when you take a card that will not work, or you will not use, for your deck so another player does not get to use this card. This is a viable tactic when you value having an opponent not have the card in reference over any other applicable cards in the pack for your deck.

Personally, I end up hate drafting after I am clear on the colors (relating this to MTG) of my neighbors and what cards I have already passed them, along with comparing said card to what other picks I have available to me. There are some other factors to consider when hate drafting a "bomb," like if your deck can't beat it.

A recent MTG related example would be the card Pack Rat. If I am light on removal spells in my draft deck, I will almost always hate draft it because it alone can win games.

The act of Hate Drafting cards isn't always applicable on every draft, but it has its places. One mistake players end up having is "When is the right time to Hate Draft?" I may end up writing some limited-related articles when I have time and more of the cards are revealed.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 12:03 PM
Redrafting results in double-penalization of the losing players.
No prize and they get the lowest rung of the ladder.

Also, how do you decide when two people are ranked the same? Or are you going based on who beat them?
e.g. Guy who lost to 1st place in 1st round gets 5th automatically?

Punk
06-02-2013, 12:08 PM
Also, how do you decide when two people are ranked the same? Or are you going based on who beat them? e.g. Guy who lost to 1st place in 1st round gets 5th automatically?

This is why there are pods of 8 people per tournament. If you have winners play winners and losers play losers, then there is no way to not have a winner after 3 rounds with 8 people.

Usually the prizes are broken down by:

1st - Winner of the final two.
2nd - Loser of the final two.
3th-4th Won once then lost in the 2nd round.
5th-8th Lost in the first round.

Of course, this all depends on the format.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 12:09 PM
This is why there are pods of 8 people per tournament. If you have winners play winners and losers play losers, then there is no way to not have a winner after 3 rounds with 8 people.

In the current top 2 and top 4 pools, it's just single elimination, so the other players are out of the draft afterwards.

tgm0112
06-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Draft Punk? Sounds like I know what name to reserve now.

Heh, you're welcome to it! Hope to see it at the drafting tables.



Thank you all so much for the info and feedback. I really got everything I was looking for from this thread. You guys rock!

As to how we determined ranking in our drafts, it's like Punk said. More wins = more points with single match tie breakers in case of ambiguity. Because of the elimination setup, everyone but the finalists was always done by the last champion match-up. Again this is just how we did it; not propping it up as the best (or even a viable) draft form.