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MugenMusou
06-02-2013, 11:36 AM
Has there been any official word for what would happen in case of deck out? Instant loss like Magic or X damage for per card you cannot draw?

larryhl
06-02-2013, 11:37 AM
Since there are mill cards, I'm assuming not being able to draw a card when you need to will be a loss condition.

Verdant
06-02-2013, 11:41 AM
Since there are mill cards, I'm assuming not being able to draw a card when you need to will be a loss condition.
Not necessarily. Being unable to draw a card is a serious disadvantage by itself.

whythelastman
06-02-2013, 11:43 AM
Not necessarily. Being unable to draw a card is a serious disadvantage by itself.

Very interesting! Continue to play and possibly win, with the disadvantage of no more cards to draw or in hand to use? That would be a cool achievement to unlock, wouldn't it?

Thelaasa
06-02-2013, 11:47 AM
Another variant I have seen for the deckout clause is that every time a player has to draw a card and cannot, they lose 1 life. This still leaves mill decks as a viable option, without abruptly ending the game as soon as a player runs out of cards.

larryhl
06-02-2013, 11:52 AM
Not necessarily. Being unable to draw a card is a serious disadvantage by itself.

Any decent MtG player will tell you that just milling on its own is not good enough for a win-con since milling is slower than damage. Something needs to accompany it for a mill deck to have a chance vs other deck types.

If you take out the win-con entirely that will make mill basically non-viable.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 12:07 PM
Any decent MtG player will tell you that just milling on its own is not good enough for a win-con since milling is slower than damage. Something needs to accompany it for a mill deck to have a chance vs other deck types.

If you take out the win-con entirely that will make mill basically non-viable.

milling isn't always slower than damage, just usually. I ran a straight up mill deck once that consistently won turn 4-5, which is where most aggro decks want to win by.

larryhl
06-02-2013, 12:11 PM
milling isn't always slower than damage, just usually. I ran a straight up mill deck once that consistently won turn 4-5, which is where most aggro decks want to win by.

And the win wouldn't have been possible if being unable to draw a card wasn't a lose condition.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 12:13 PM
And the win wouldn't have been possible if being unable to draw a card wasn't a lose condition.

having 2 5/5 fliers begs to differ. but it would have been harder, yes.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 12:16 PM
Unofficial Mechanic:
Jace's Synergy.
Play any card with Jace in the name in the same deck for increased chance to win the game.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 12:17 PM
and all his cards that quickly pissed people off(erasure, phantasm, archivist) =)

SenecaTheYounger
06-02-2013, 12:19 PM
I had a great mill deck once, too. In Morningtide draft...

grey0one
06-02-2013, 12:23 PM
In some games, decking out does not equal a loss. In the Game of Thrones card game, you just can't draw any cards when you run out of dek cards. Not nesasarly dead, just turtling. They even have a (admitaly bad) mill deck. We'll have to see for hex how they do it.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 12:24 PM
Also Magi-Nation you couldn't deck out either. when you ran out of cards, you just shuffled your discard pile back into your deck.

MugenMusou
06-02-2013, 01:32 PM
Personally, instant loss only if you have a specific card be nice. Otherwise, losing health is reasonable. This is for 2 reasons.

1. If you are like 1 point away from defeating opponent but loses game just because the game took so long and you went first, so you drew card first. This seems a bit harsh.


2. Having a card that has a effect such as:

Mill Master
Basic Action
0
Add this card to the bottom of the target champion's deck. It will always stay at the bottom. If the player draws this card, the player loses.

Now this instant win situation is different because you know your opponent had whole intention to win a game by milling from the get go. So its his strategy.

grey0one
06-02-2013, 01:44 PM
On a side note, milling could be very hard! We've seen a fair amount of cards that add Grey (game-only or "token" cards) to your deck after being cast. We've also seen an example of a card that adds dross cards to your oponent's deck. That would be cool to make an inverted mill deck. Adds more card, but all Of them useless.

Madican
06-02-2013, 01:48 PM
Milling can actually hurt you too. For example, the Diamond card that lets Inspire work from cards in the graveyard. Mill that opponent's deck and you might just set yourself up for some colossal bruisers to start dropping in with Steadfast, Spellshield, Speed, and all sorts of other nasty buffs.

Tyrfang
06-02-2013, 01:56 PM
Imagine a mill deck going against a pack raptor deck.

...Oops.

tecnophi
06-02-2013, 02:06 PM
A milling win condition is something I would keep an eye on in draft format... but yeah, there are a number of spoiled cards so far that could counter milling rather hard.

Xenavire
06-02-2013, 02:16 PM
I believe it needs to be an instant loss - the timers are already going to rather difficult for a stall/mill player to play around, and stalling out for another 20 turns would take a very long time (even if the mill deck managed to pack aggro as well, this could end up being difficult.)

We want game length to be reasonable and the rules to be fair, so it makes sense to make it a win condition - it has already been stated that it will be harder already - the mill deck would almost be better off milling itself down and escalating itself a handful of those mill cards, just to ramp it up enough to actually do some damage.

Fireblast
06-02-2013, 02:33 PM
I've played a sealed MtG tournament today (small one, 12 players).
I had an esper control deck with milling as an alternate win condition and it was great.
Milling is a good option that opens up diverse strategies.

~

MugenMusou
06-02-2013, 02:56 PM
I've played a sealed MtG tournament today (small one, 12 players).
I had an esper control deck with milling as an alternate win condition and it was great.
Milling is a good option that opens up diverse strategies.

~

Yeah. I think some ppl (especially in mobile environment) hate going against mill as it just stalls the game, but alternative win condition always add another layer of game play.

IndigoShade
06-02-2013, 04:02 PM
I was thinking a sapphire/blood deck with Uruunaz, chronic madness, and sabotage would be a good start for a deck that can mill your or kill you through damage. Always good to have options ;)

Talreth
06-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Another variant I have seen for the deckout clause is that every time a player has to draw a card and cannot, they lose 1 life. This still leaves mill decks as a viable option, without abruptly ending the game as soon as a player runs out of cards.

In one of the early videos I am almost 100% positive this is how they said it will work.

BlindMan
06-02-2013, 04:11 PM
In one of the early videos I am almost 100% positive this is how they said it will work.

Can you point us to that? I don't remember seeing that spelled out.

Lazybum
06-02-2013, 04:11 PM
curious to see what the official ruling on this will be

DjiN
06-02-2013, 04:14 PM
In one of the early videos I am almost 100% positive this is how they said it will work.

I think your mixing up HEX with Hearthstone here. In Hearthstone it is like that.

Xenavire
06-02-2013, 06:24 PM
In one of the early videos I am almost 100% positive this is how they said it will work.

I watched all the early videos - if you can point it out I will find something viles and eat it, because I am sure you are mistaken.

RECHiD
06-02-2013, 06:51 PM
Either Magic style "can't draw? you lose" or WoW style "-1 life per card not drawn" is acceptable, so long as there is a mechanic that ends the game at some point. Otherwise, you can (albeit very rarely) get to a point where the game just won't end.

Grissnap
06-02-2013, 07:29 PM
WoW is if you must draw a card but unable, lose the game.

Kalius
06-02-2013, 07:45 PM
I think he was referring to Hearthstone, which is still a WoW based cardgame.

rwmwaffle
06-02-2013, 08:11 PM
the Holy Grail is a mill deck that lets you do damage via milling and based upon cards that have been previewed so far it looks like a blood / sapphire Deck will be able to do just that. This is the first deck that I intend to build for PvP