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loopholist3
06-02-2013, 06:50 PM
So I realize that the game isn't finished being balanced yet, but I still feel the need to voice my concern. The cards that I find the be the most interesting and unique in this game are the card that manipulate your, or your opponents deck (such as Replicator's Gambit and Sabotage). The concern I have is that these cards will not have enough time for their purpose to be met. What leads me to believe this are three cards; General's Tent, Xentoth's Chosen, and Inferno. All three of the cards can end the game on turn 10 with just one of them and the energy needed to play it. Seeing how the game could only end faster if any sort of combo is used with these cards, I have to assume that the average game will not be more than 10 turns. This becomes a problem for deck manipulation cards because a very large portion of them will take much more than 10 turns to become useful. For example Sabotage will take 3 turn to play and on average 7 turns for your opponent to draw the first one. This means that if you are using this card, by the turn you are planing to cause an annoyance for your opponent, they are already planning on winning.

Now I realize that these cards are not the final balance, and it might be viable to make a sabotage deck as long as you include other cards to support them. I just really want the things that this game unique to actually be good enough to be seen outside of casual games.

loopholist3
06-03-2013, 06:47 AM
Am I crazy to being worrying about this, or have other people seen this too.

Fireblast
06-03-2013, 06:50 AM
I think you're crazy to think a card that is efficient after 10 turns is a good card.

~

Talreth
06-03-2013, 06:57 AM
I think you're crazy to think a card that is efficient after 10 turns is a good card.

~

lol, this

Avaian
06-03-2013, 06:58 AM
General's Tent requires 3 mana per preparation counter, making it 9 mana for 10 damage. Assuming you play it on turn 2 and turn 3, 4, and 5 are used to pay for it you would only have 1 mana on turn 4 and 2 on turn 5 in order to do 10 damage on turn 6. So if you were to go for 20 damage from general's tent you would likely get overrun due to being unable to play some cards.

Inferno's intent is to speed up the game but it hurts you as much as your opponent.

I don't know what Xentoth's Chosen does so I can not comment on it. So in general you are just slightly 'crazy' worrying about it and I am sure there will be a card or two to counter those 3.

Avaian
06-03-2013, 07:00 AM
I think you're crazy to think a card that is efficient after 10 turns is a good card.

~

Cards that can stand alone and win a game on turn 10 (not 10 turns) are not that bad, most quick wins require combos.

loopholist3
06-03-2013, 07:01 AM
I think you're crazy to think a card that is efficient after 10 turns is a good card.
~

You are actually just further proving my point. Also I don't think a card that is efficient after 10 turns is good. I chose them because they are ones that are easy to understand, and it is clear how they win. Also I didn't want to burden my opening post with an entire paragraph about a combo that will win you the game in 4 turns, and then get the conversation derailed as people "explain" obvious ways to counter it that will only work in specific decks anyways.

Tyrfang
06-03-2013, 07:02 AM
I don't know what Xentoth's Chosen does so I can not comment on it. So in general you are just slightly 'crazy' worrying about it and I am sure there will be a card or two to counter those 3.

http://hydra-images.cursecdn.com/hextcg.gamepedia.com/4/42/Xentoth%27s_Chosen.png

loopholist3
06-03-2013, 07:04 AM
I don't know what Xentoth's Chosen does so I can not comment on it. So in general you are just slightly 'crazy' worrying about it and I am sure there will be a card or two to counter those 3.

Xentoth's Chosen is a 5/4 unblockable.

jai151
06-03-2013, 07:04 AM
Because of the resolution, I definitely read that as "Xentoth's Clown"

Avaian
06-03-2013, 07:08 AM
http://hydra-images.cursecdn.com/hextcg.gamepedia.com/4/42/Xentoth%27s_Chosen.png

Not bad, blood really has some flashy cards.

Talreth
06-03-2013, 07:27 AM
Inb4 pacifism or murder, and you just 3 for 1'd yourself. Unless your two sac troops had a enter the graveyard effect.

nrflorencio
06-03-2013, 07:32 AM
Are you guys expecting to get a mana source every single turn??

larryhl
06-03-2013, 07:40 AM
Are you guys expecting to get a mana source every single turn??

Yes, you should be getting one "resource" a turn at least up to turn 4. Expect to get 5 within 6 turns, 6 within 8 turns, and 7 within 10 turns. Usually how it works.

Genocidal
06-03-2013, 07:42 AM
Am I crazy to being worrying about this, or have other people seen this too.

I think it's a bit crazy to worry. A common meta will usually end up with three deck archetypes -- combo, aggro, and control, where aggro beats control, control beats combo, and combo beats aggro. Any slow cards/win conditions like you've mentioned in your post will need to be supplemented by other cards that give you control of the game, and any quick kills need to be mindful of removal that slows their decks down.

This article is a decent read for anyone not familiar with the aggro-combo-control archetypes: https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/academy/22

loopholist3
06-03-2013, 07:42 AM
Are you guys expecting to get a mana source every single turn??

The amount of mana source you should expect depends on which card you are using to win, but in general they will need 1 mana source per turn until the turn they are played. But I honestly think you guys are getting hung up on the wrong details. I am not saying that these cards are broken compared to most other cards. I am saying deck manipulation cards are going to be way under powered because of how many turns the average game is going to take, and that these cards are a good way to tell what duration you should be expecting.

larryhl
06-03-2013, 07:45 AM
@loopholist3, control type decks are always slower than their aggro counterparts. That doesn't mean you'll always lose to them, just that you need to build your deck in such a way that you dont lose to early damage and can stabilize fast. Usually control decks want to be able to stabilize by turn 4 (usually through a board wipe or some other shenanigans).

Turtlewing
06-03-2013, 07:46 AM
The amount of mana source you should expect depends on which card you are using to win, but in general they will need 1 mana source per turn until the turn they are played. But I honestly think you guys are getting hung up on the wrong details. I am not saying that these cards are broken compared to most other cards. I am saying deck manipulation cards are going to be way under powered because of how many turns the average game is going to take, and that these cards are a good way to tell what duration you should be expecting.

Sure, injecting a card into your deck and waiting to draw it is a loosing strategy.

Injecting a card into your deck then drawing a ton of cards or tutoring the card you injected on the other hand...

loopholist3
06-03-2013, 07:49 AM
I think it's a bit crazy to worry. A common meta will usually end up with three deck archetypes -- combo, aggro, and control, where aggro beats control, control beats combo, and combo beats aggro. Any slow cards/win conditions like you've mentioned in your post will need to be supplemented by other cards that give you control of the game, and any quick kills need to be mindful of removal that slows their decks down.

This is true, but control decks are usually built out of cards that are highly adaptable, highly consistent, counter the current meta, or provide a single card win condition that requires a large amount of build up time. Most of the current deck manipulation cards don't do any of that. Sabotage kind of gives you a win condition, but by the time it kicks in you might as well have tried to mill them instead.

Tyrfang
06-03-2013, 08:04 AM
Replicator's Gambit and/or Pack Raptor and/or escalation cards seem like a good match for Eye of Creation and tons of mana acceleration.

larryhl
06-03-2013, 08:07 AM
Also, at the beginning of every TCG, aggro will be more common just because it's easier to find your path to victory. Turn everything sideways. It always takes longer for the top tier control and combo decks to form because of the inherently longer process of figuring out the meta.